Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fenny]

I really don't think Shieik-Bayo is that bad anywhere else other than FD, where Bayo just straight up doesn't get to play the game if the Shiek is merciless enough with her god forsaken neutral B

It's probably my favourite MU to play against otherwise tbh, because it always pushes me to play a fair bit better than I usually do. Her frame data means that you're getting ripped to shreds if you don't play fundamentally sound.

 

[Dre89]

Bowser is hard to gauge because he loses to everyone on paper, but in reality he catches someone 3-4 times and they're dead.

People can theorycraft, but you have to verse a proper one to understand how threatening he is with just jab and grab.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Bowser is also hard to gauge because no one knows how to play anti-grab yet, apparently.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Bowser is also hard to gauge because no one knows how to play anti-grab yet, apparently.

Nobody knows how to play against Marth either yet you have people claiming that he is Top Tier now despite that.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Nobody knows how to play against Marth either yet you have people claiming that he is Top Tier now despite that.

Marth and Bowser aren't comparable here. Beating most of the top 10 players in the world in one night (including Larry twice) and beating Tweek that one time aren't the same.

 

[TDK]

Marth and Bowser aren't comparable here. Beating most of the top 10 players in the world in one night (including Larry twice) and beating Tweek that one time aren't the same.

And Zinoto, and Mr. E...

 

[FamilyTeam]

I wasn't really "comparing" the two here. It's just that this is a similar case of people not knowing how to play against either.

 

[Peppermint1201]

And Zinoto, and Mr. E...

ok, two more B-listers to add to bowser's quote-unquote accolades. my point still stands. i don't want to disrespect these players, but it's objectively true that marth has significantly better results, in the quantity and quality of his wins.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Shulk is always an interesting character to see being discussed even though I don't parttake in discussions about him myself.
But I am confused.
Some Shulk mains go on and on about how his frame data is not that big of a deal, even though it's slow.
Zero doesn't main Shulk, but he plays him quite a bit, and Zero is the most successful player ever of this game, and he is saying it's a really big freaking deal.
So what is it, in the end?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Bowser is also hard to gauge because no one knows how to play anti-grab yet, apparently.

The current meta consists of characters who want to zone out their opponents at a specific range. Sheik, Diddy Kong, Marth, and Cloud to name a few. Surprise! Bowser has a grab range that covers that spacing as well. It's not about people not knowing how to play around grab, Mario exists. It's that Bowser counters the current meta. Your options to get around this are to either smother him, something the characters I mentioned can do, especially Diddy Kong and Sheik, but also something that some non-top tiered characters are good at doing -C. Falcon, Pikachu-, or you can play outside his grab range with more projectile based zoning rather than disjoint based. Characters like Link or Mega Man. Or you could be ZSS (and Sheik) and have a good mixture of both.

When your meta is characters that zone with disjoint, your anti-meta is a character or characters that work around that. You can either adapt your current plan to fit this new meta, or change with the meta and try to counter it in other ways.

Nobody knows how to play against Marth either yet you have people claiming that he is Top Tier now despite that.

He has had consistent high placings for months and has won a super major (You can count on one hand the amount of characters that have done that this patch). He's one of the most meta defining characters at the current moment.

Tell me that doesn't scream top tier.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Shulk is always an interesting character to see being discussed even though I don't parttake in discussions about him myself.
But I am confused.
Some Shulk mains go on and on about how his frame data is not that big of a deal, even though it's slow.
Zero doesn't main Shulk, but he plays him quite a bit, and Zero is the most successful player ever of this game, and he is saying it's a really big freaking deal.
So what is it, in the end?

It's bad, but it's mitigated by the frankly ridiculous mobility that Artes give him.

Now, when you have bad frame data and trash mobility...

 

[blackghost]

its also that smash in terms of mechanics doesnt really have a true anti grab defensive option. there are no throw techs. your only options are side step and/or using a fast move to trade.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

*grabs popcorn*

I just watched the shulk video and I don't think he really has a bad grab game. Zero mostly focused on bad frame data and forgot the mention Shulk tech and focused on the negatives of buster art even when you take the most damage in jump art.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Shulk's framedata really does hold him back though. He just gets out-buttoned a little too hard. You almost have to see into the future to know when you can throw out your attack at the perfect time. Fitting for the character funnily enough, although it is a bit ironic.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk is always an interesting character to see being discussed even though I don't parttake in discussions about him myself.
But I am confused.
Some Shulk mains go on and on about how his frame data is not that big of a deal, even though it's slow.
Zero doesn't main Shulk, but he plays him quite a bit, and Zero is the most successful player ever of this game, and he is saying it's a really big freaking deal.
So what is it, in the end?

This entire video was basically him talking about his frame data, contradicting the original tier list placement he gave him.

I normally don't like discussing Shulk in this thread but I'll give my two cents.

His frame data is indeed a severe fundamental flaw and is what is limiting him at the highest levels of play. Arts are absolutely amazing and I could go on all day about them, but they don't make up for having to work with a character who outright has the worst frame data in the game even if it does lessen the blow. Even then, the character still has many threatening tools and has proven himself to get work done, even against notable players and relevant characters in this meta. I believe he's somewhere around lower part of mid tier.

 

[Rizen]

Saying 'don't get grabbed' in smash is like telling a boxer 'don't get hit', lol. There are ways to get grabbed less however. has good tools to land grabs or freak people out with other heavy attacks and he lives long enough for the opportunities. He'll stay relevant bar some weird 0%-death found on him.
What people need to do is, if you're character can't out-zone him, get in and abuse the heck out of his disadvantage state. He'll get grabs but his frame data and lag are trash.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Atleast against Marcina, although he outranges them, what definitely saves the matchup on our side seems to be our above average frame data for a swordsman with pretty good reach. Hitting Shulk out of startup or endlag isn't that uncommon from what I have seen. However, the good Shulks atleast cover their backs on the startup lag front.

 

[Deleted member]

Atleast against Marcina, although he outranges them, what definitely saves the matchup on our side seems to be our above average frame data for a swordsman with pretty good reach. Hitting Shulk out of startup or endlag isn't that uncommon from what I have seen. However, the good Shulks atleast cover their backs on the startup lag front.

Shulk does completely fine against Marcina if he plays a mostly grounded game vs. them. I'll bring up another post from earlier.

Marth is pretty close to even for Shulk. Slight loss at the absolute worst. If the Shulk has a good ground game then he should be able to do well against Marth in neutral. So many Shulks mindlessly jump against Marth and it's what gets them swatted in the air over and over.

Shulk is able to catch Marth's landings pretty well and Marth has to respect your spacing game a fair amount due to Shulk obviously outclassing him in range. Both characters edgeguard each other fairly hard though and CQC is definitely a problem for Shulk due to the silliness that's Marth's jab and DB but otherwise in my experience I've never had significant issue against Marth.

Nicko's advice on the MU improved my play in it greatly. There's also the fact that Shulk in Speed Art has the fastest walk in the game.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Shulk does completely fine against Marcina if he plays a mostly grounded game vs. them. I'll bring up another post from earlier.

Ehh it goes both ways a bit. It's kinda similar in a sense to Marth vs Cloud. If you stay more grounded against Cloud you can react to many of his approaches because they're mostly aerial based, but if you're constantly just jumping at him then you'll get swatted by a bunch of nairs. If you play that that grounded style against Shulk, he doesn't really do so hot now that Marth isn't approaching him. He kinda has to rely on Speed art to try and rush in a bit or finding that sweet spot between staying grounded and when to smartly approach with an aerial.

 

[Deleted member]

Ehh it goes both ways a bit. It's kinda similar in a sense to Marth vs Cloud. If you stay more grounded against Cloud you can react to many of his approaches because they're mostly aerial based, but if you're constantly just jumping at him then you'll get swatted by a bunch of nairs. If you play that that grounded style against Shulk, he doesn't really do so hot now that Marth isn't approaching him. He kinda has to rely on Speed art to try and rush in a bit or finding that sweet spot between staying grounded and when to smartly approach with an aerial.

Fair points. Shulk also has to fear tippers a lot offstage, you always have to recover smartly against him. If you lose a jump and don't have Jump Art ondeck say goodbye to your stock. Dolphin Slash also can mess with Shulk's recovery due to him not having the lenient ledgesnap most characters in this game do.

 

[|RK|]

I just watched ZeRo's "How good is DK" video, where he plays as DK & Hackoru plays as Dr. Mario and watching it I'm wondering... Could Dr. Mario have some niche use for Mario mains that struggle with Bowser/DK/heavies? His moves would be familiar enough with the added benefit that he can nearly match their kill power. Plus you don't have to worry as much about being camped out by either character. So while Mario abuses disadvantage until he can get a gimp, Dr. Mario can abuse their disadvantage almost as well and convert it into a kill.

IDK too much about Dr. Mario, so that was just a thought. Anyone more familiar with both chars have thoughts?

 

[Deleted member]

DK, Bowser and Zard are all some of Doc's worst MUs so not really. It doesn't help dthrow to fair doesn't work well on the latter two.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Bowser'll stay relevant bar some weird 0%-death found on him.

If we see a huge rise in characters like Link or ZSS I don't think he'll have the same level of relevance.

The way Bowser is played right now is very reactively. He wants you to try and come near him while he edges closer and forces that interaction to happen more often. He doesn't want to throw out attacks at all. The current Bowser meta game we're seeing is finding habits in neutral and punishing them. And just standing there and not approaching yourself doesn't really work cause now he can just corner you. You have to be able to interact with him from a distance greater than his jab/grab/pivot grab range via projectiles or stay too close for him to punish. From my experience, the former works much better because you can still exploit those bad landing and frame data flaws while sending a bunch of projectiles his way.

 

[L9999]

Saying 'don't get grabbed' in smash is like telling a boxer 'don't get hit', lol. There are ways to get grabbed less however. has good tools to land grabs or freak people out with other heavy attacks and he lives long enough for the opportunities. He'll stay relevant bar some weird 0%-death found on him.
What people need to do is, if you're character can't out-zone him, get in and abuse the heck out of his disadvantage state. He'll get grabs but his frame data and lag are trash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXL1BEM9EG4 Like Mr E at 8:00?

 

[Dre89]

Bowser is also hard to gauge because no one knows how to play anti-grab yet, apparently.

Could you elaborate how to play anti-grab with specifics.

Because I keep hearing things like 'people haven't optimised esgeguarding yet' or 'people don't know how to play anti grab' yet no one gives specific advice.

I really want to hear people's insights on how to consistently avoid Bowser's grab, when he can just dash at you and 50/50 between grabbing your shield and shieldgrabbing your attack.

 

[FeelMeUp]

playing anti-grab is a really roundabout way to emphasize air/platform camping, but many people tend to not realize a lot of the cast can't afford to play that game.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Does anyone have a link to das koopa's thread about tourney results for posting brackets?

 

[MistressRemilia]

I just watched ZeRo's "How good is DK" video, where he plays as DK & Hackoru plays as Dr. Mario and watching it I'm wondering... Could Dr. Mario have some niche use for Mario mains that struggle with Bowser/DK/heavies? His moves would be familiar enough with the added benefit that he can nearly match their kill power. Plus you don't have to worry as much about being camped out by either character. So while Mario abuses disadvantage until he can get a gimp, Dr. Mario can abuse their disadvantage almost as well and convert it into a kill.

IDK too much about Dr. Mario, so that was just a thought. Anyone more familiar with both chars have thoughts?

Not at all.
The loss in mobility is a severe flaw that costs us the win against the 3 decent heavies of this game. How it translates in the matchup against an aware heavyweight player is that they're likely to take a defensive stance, trying to react to what we're throwing, and either use something to outspace us, usually on the ground, or abuse their pivot grab in order to achieve the same goal. Against an aware player, Low % are especially hard as Doc as you don't really have a go to option, as almost everything in your kit has a rather low amount of hitstun at Low% aside from unpractical moves, Pills & Tornado. You're almost bound to be losing from the start, which will make the matchup all the more hard for us.

These are thought to be among the harder matchups Doc has to face, because unlike many other characters, their way of outlaming us is actually practical & is likely to be thought intuitively by even a player that doesn't know how to play the matchup at first glance, as they react to how the matchup plays out overall.

 

[|RK|]

DK, Bowser and Zard are all some of Doc's worst MUs so not really. It doesn't help dthrow to fair doesn't work well on the latter two.

Not at all.
The loss in mobility is a severe flaw that costs us the win against the 3 decent heavies of this game. How it translates in the matchup against an aware heavyweight player is that they're likely to take a defensive stance, trying to react to what we're throwing, and either use something to outspace us, usually on the ground, or abuse their pivot grab in order to achieve the same goal. Against an aware player, Low % are especially hard as Doc as you don't really have a go to option, as almost everything in your kit has a rather low amount of hitstun at Low% aside from unpractical moves, Pills & Tornado. You're almost bound to be losing from the start, which will make the matchup all the more hard for us.

These are thought to be among the harder matchups Doc has to face, because unlike many other characters, their way of outlaming us is actually practical & is likely to be thought intuitively by even a player that doesn't know how to play the matchup at first glance, as they react to how the matchup plays out overall.

Oh, I see

Are there any MUs that Doc might do better in than Mario, or is Mario a straight up upgrade for every MU?

 

[The-Technique]

Oh, I see

Are there any MUs that Doc might do better in than Mario, or is Mario a straight up upgrade for every MU?

Nope. Mario is basically a speedier, less laggy and more forgiving version of Doc. Which isn't to say Doc doesn't have strengths, of course, his moves have longer hitboxes and more damage (extra shield safety). Also that b-air, Doc's b-air is one of the best in the game. But he basically sucks for the same reason Falco does, garbage recovery and sluggish mobility combined with poor range equals horrendous disadvantage (and Mario's is already kind of bad to begin with).

 

[Routa]

I'm not sure if we give Doc enough credit. I have been reading and talking about Doc recently and what I have understood is that he will rise once the meta adapts more ground based play. @A2ZOMG You played Doc right? Would you like to tell us more about Doc?

 

[HoSmash4]

Your opponent cannot grab you if: You're outside of grab range which is a multitude of things:

• Your opponent isn't on the ground
• You're not on the ground (though landings are really easy to grab if it's predicted)
• If you platform camp
• If you have space to retreat to
• If your opponent is ledgetrapped
• You interrupt the grab with an attack as there is not grab armour

I.e if you're in advantage he can't grab you. In disadvantage it's very hard to avoid. If you play neutral right you might not get grabbed but you open yourself otherwise.

'Don't get grabbed is BS I'm sorry.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Oh, I see

Are there any MUs that Doc might do better in than Mario, or is Mario a straight up upgrade for every MU?

Maybe a few zoners, Fox, Mario & Lucario.
I've already done tons of rants about this: The characters Doc shines are the Brawlers that can't outrange him too hard, and the zoners. His Cape is the most practical anti zoning tool in the game, and has use even outside of zoning ( If you're not convinced of this, i advice you to watch shky vs Tsumusuto, he makes use of Wavebounce Cape perfectly to poke ZSS' Shield, as well land more efficiently ). Doc's consistency in his advantage state, positivity on trade, strong disadvantage when it comes to combos & fearsome kill power via safe moves to throw, excellent edgeguarding against the poorer recoveries, and confirms that can frame trap usually makes it so that Doc may often have the edge against these characters, or is at the very least evenly matched with them.

Edit: On a practical leel, Doc matchups sometimes become way better than they should be. That's why some Doc optimists and a few other players ( Rich Bron & Larry ) believe that Doc is threatening vs Mewtwo.

 

[Jamurai]

Nope. Mario is basically a speedier, less laggy and more forgiving version of Doc. Which isn't to say Doc doesn't have strengths, of course, his moves have longer hitboxes and more damage (extra shield safety). Also that b-air, Doc's b-air is one of the best in the game. But he basically sucks for the same reason Falco does, garbage recovery and sluggish mobility combined with poor range equals horrendous disadvantage (and Mario's is already kind of bad to begin with).

Mario is not less laggy than Doc, they have pretty much identical frame data. He's just way faster with slightly weaker hits and a few different (but not necessarily better) moves.

I use Doc as a counterpick for Mario and Fox if I'm not feeling it with MK; he has decent matchups with both of them, and arguably a better Mario MU than MK does.

- - - - - - - - - -

About grabs... "Don't get grabbed" and "playing anti-grab" are legitimate things in other fighting games, where grabs have clear counterplay e.g. techs (many 2D fighters) and grab armour on move startup (common in Pokken etc.), whereas in Smash there is no such counterplay. It's just a hitbox which beats shields and counters and lets you throw them wherever you want. Grabs are OP in this game compared to others.

What holds them back is that usually grab-boxes are pretty small. But then you have Bowser (and to a slightly lesser extent DK), who has ludicrous grab range with good ground speed and setups, along with amazing grab reward to back it up.

If you have good fundamentals, offensively speaking, why would you need anything else?

Nairo has demonstrated this, in big tournies and against top players, a few times now.

 

[Nah]

Does anyone have a link to das koopa's thread about tourney results for posting brackets?

here: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

 

[blackghost]

Your opponent cannot grab you if: You're outside of grab range which is a multitude of things:

• Your opponent isn't on the ground
• You're not on the ground (though landings are really easy to grab if it's predicted)
• If you platform camp
• If you have space to retreat to
• If your opponent is ledgetrapped
• You interrupt the grab with an attack as there is not grab armour

I.e if you're in advantage he can't grab you. In disadvantage it's very hard to avoid. If you play neutral right you might not get grabbed but you open yourself otherwise.

'Don't get grabbed is BS I'm sorry.

since the grab conversation is centered on bowser its also important to note that he places a star next to "cant be grabbed on platforms" and "if there is space to retreat". bowser has a command grab that kills and that platform you were just on is a huge liability now. secondly bowser pivot grab covers more space than a lot of characters get on initial dashes. a lot of characters cannot retreat reliable fast enough from a bowser pivot grab.

 

[|RK|]

since the grab conversation is centered on bowser its also important to note that he places a star next to "cant be grabbed on platforms" and "if there is space to retreat". bowser has a command grab that kills and that platform you were just on is a huge liability now. secondly bowser pivot grab covers more space than a lot of characters get on initial dashes. a lot of characters cannot retreat reliable fast enough from a bowser pivot grab.

Tbf, Bowser's command grab can be controlled by whoever has a lower percent. So if you're a stock up with low percent, you can just end the game by forcing a Bowsercide. Situational, but always good to know.

 

[irokex13]

If you're platform camping Bowser, you can literally react to his command grab. It's frame 17 in the air, and it's only active for 1 frame. You have at least 25 frames to move out of the way (frame 8 jump squat + frame 17 grab), so if you can't react to that at least somewhat consistently, idk what to tell you.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Just wanna mention this now.


MSM today is gonna be stacked. Notable names OOS attending are:
MK Leo
Komorikiri
Javi
Esam
MVD
Dabuz(Maybe his )
Tweek
6WX
Pink Fresh
Dath
Mr.E
Marss


This is looking like a tier 2/3 event with these PGR V1 and potential V2 members everywhere, definitely worth watching tonight!

 

[Rizen]

Just wanna mention this now.


MSM today is gonna be stacked. Notable names OOS attending are:
MK Leo
Komorikiri
Javi
Esam
MVD
Dabuz(Maybe his )
Tweek
6WX
Pink Fresh
Dath
Mr.E
Marss


This is looking like a tier 2/3 event with these PGR V1 and potential V2 members everywhere, definitely worth watching tonight!

The forecast for today is... Cloudy.