Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

Up B, I'm assuming.

Bomb equipped to explode with shield up, bomb toss, u-tilt, OOS b-air, and jab, as well.

 

[Fenny]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

ZSS as well, who does well vs Bayo too. Superior mobility, a neutral roughly at Bayo's level and obviously gets a lot off of grab. Can't be gimped easily either.

 

[Rizen]

To define what "Good" OoS options are you can look at time, safety and reward. Bayo's frame 4, combo-starting, non-freefall causing upB has all those in spades, possibly the best OoS in the game. Things like Marth's Dolphin Slash and Charizard's upB have frame 4 armor, good reward but cause freefalling from the air, which can be lessened with platforms; these are good upBs. Fast jumpsquat>Nairs like Sheik's frame 4js, frame 3 Nair are slightly slower than fast OoS upBs but have great safety. Quick, good grabs usually start frame 6 or 7 and FAF frame 30ish, they only grab in front but are good.

Link on the other hand has a frame 7js and 7 Nair for 14 total. That's twice Sheik's. His standing grab is 12-17 FAF 62. Shield drop>jab is 14 total. UpB starts frame 8 but has an FAF of 82. OoS Usmash starts 10 FAF 78. He is better when holding a bomb with his forward throw being frame 7 FAF 21 or simply letting the fuse run out. So, no; Link's OoS game is not good except for with a bomb in hand and those bomb throws tend to go over the heads of small characters up close.
I will say Link's speed may be slow but the range is huge. Usmash has ground spin attack's horizontal range in front of Link and more behind him with huge vertical reach, I like using it rather than upB because it covers more area and ends sooner but starts 2 frames later. UpB still has good range all around Link, something many upBs lack. And grab catches moves with a lot of shield push. All these can kill well and have good damage or throw combos. So Link has good options vs big hits and unsafe air approaches.

Also worth mentioning that rolls are safer than in Brawl so a slow OoS isn't the death sentence it used to be.

tl;dr Link's OoS is mediocre with good reward.

 

[ARISTOS]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

Pretty sure that MK gets worked by Bayo, can't speak for the other characters

 

[BSP]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

Every time I see this spelled out, Pac-Man jumps to my mind. He's kind of a meme right now, but he has some of the stuff you mentioned.

Grab stuff: lol no.

Better neutral: probably not, but it's heavily stage dependent imo. On tri platform layouts, Pac-Man can make getting in hell. FD and Lylat though, it's pretty free.

punish game: it depends on what pac-man has. His galaxian confirms are still a solid 30-40%. Bell OoS can lead into kills. Key gives him a ranged KO option, but of course it takes time for him to get his toys. Bayo always has her stuff.

Recovery: pac has raw distance and lots of stalling potential offstage. Bayo can mess with it, but he shouldn't be getting gimped often. On the flip side, Pac's fruits can actually edge guard Bayo. I'm a bit rusty on specifics, but I do know she needs to avoid the orange like the plague. It beats her kicks.

OoS: F5 jumpsquat + F3 Nair, or F1 trampoline to negate close range cross up attempts. The reward isn't the best, but she can't dance on his shield for free. If he has a fruit in hand, that too.

Mobility: average. A little slower than Mario on the ground, pretty average everywhere outside of being floaty.

Projectile options: Pac's got the variety.

We'll probably never see optimized pac in play, but he has the stuff on paper.

 

[Nu~]

Every time I see this spelled out, Pac-Man jumps to my mind. He's kind of a meme right now, but he has some of the stuff you mentioned.

Grab stuff: lol no.

Better neutral: probably not, but it's heavily stage dependent imo. On tri platform layouts, Pac-Man can make getting in hell. FD and Lylat though, it's pretty free.

punish game: it depends on what pac-man has. His galaxian confirms are still a solid 30-40%. Bell OoS can lead into kills. Key gives him a ranged KO option, but of course it takes time for him to get his toys. Bayo always has her stuff.

Recovery: pac has raw distance and lots of stalling potential offstage. Bayo can mess with it, but he shouldn't be getting gimped often. On the flip side, Pac's fruits can actually edge guard Bayo. I'm a bit rusty on specifics, but I do know she needs to avoid the orange like the plague. It beats her kicks.

OoS: F5 jumpsquat + F3 Nair, or F1 trampoline to negate close range cross up attempts. The reward isn't the best, but she can't dance on his shield for free. If he has a fruit in hand, that too.

Mobility: average. A little slower than Mario on the ground, pretty average everywhere outside of being floaty.

Projectile options: Pac's got the variety.

We'll probably never see optimized pac in play, but he has the stuff on paper.

Just curious, but what do you think an optimized Pac-Man will look like?
Do you still think it will be the "Optimized Z drop infinites" route, or something else.

 

[BSP]

Just curious, but what do you think an optimized Pac-Man will look like?
Do you still think it will be the "Optimized Z drop infinites" route, or something else.

I don't know. I'm not sure what direction Pac-Man should head in.

 

[NegaNixx]

I don't know. I'm not sure what direction Pac-Man should head in.

That's scarily fitting considering Pac-Man's game origins.

 

[Pazzo.]

PAC-MAN always was a silly little fellow.

A shame he dropped off the competitive map. I loved watching Key, Bell, and Galaxian shenanigans more than anything else.

What other characters had a decent to good player, but dropped off due to switching to a higher tier? ?

 

[TDK]

What other characters had a decent to good player, but dropped off due to switching to a higher tier? ?

And as for Link's OOS options, the ability to turn his shield into a time bomb by holding a bomb can make hitting his shield dangerous. Up-B, Up Tilt, Jab, and Short hop nair/bair are his other good ones.

 

[blackghost]

pk kids should be on that list. but on your list @FeelMeUp would you mind ranking the most impotant to least important? the way i see it is this:
1 Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
2. better neutral
3. good projectile options
4. decent out of shield options
5. decent to good mobility
6. Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
7.Comparable or better punish game than hers
the characters that do well they have at least 5 of these elements and have at least two of my top 3 qualities.

 

[HoSmash4]

Ikes metagane is pretty stale with top Ikes switching to Corrin

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seeing Ikes play Corrin is always funny to me.

It's like yall wanna play Marth so damn bad, but you don't wanna jump on the bandwagon so you go with FE beast number 2.

 

[TDK]

6. Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death

Wouldn't this one be a huge deal for Ness though?

 

[blackghost]

it is, but given ness strengths of grab confirms, pk fire, ability to edge gaurd her, and kill throws it still compensates. plus its a risk for bayo to go out there. if ness plays the rest of the mu well he shouldnt be offstage much see FOW matches vs jk.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seeing Ikes play Corrin is always funny to me.

It's like yall wanna play Marth so damn bad, but you don't wanna jump on the bandwagon so you go with FE beast number 2.

I think it has to do with the comfort of a lower speed character (though Corrin is even slower than Ike).

Ryo seems to be going more Roy now though.

Also Lucina is better than Corrin so more like "FE character # 3"

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Seeing Ikes play Corrin is always funny to me.

It's like yall wanna play Marth so damn bad, but you don't wanna jump on the bandwagon so you go with FE beast number 2.

Wouldn't blame them. I wouldn't want to be Diddy player #292747 either. All I'd do is just blend in.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Wouldn't blame them. I wouldn't want to be Diddy player #292747 either. All I'd do is just blend in.

c'mon dude, you know better than to say "i dont wanna play a top tier" around emblemlord...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

c'mon dude, you know better than to say "i dont wanna play a top tier" around emblemlord...

Not every top tier is the same. I'd play Rosa and sheik.

Diddy is different for me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

c'mon dude, you know better than to say "i dont wanna play a top tier" around emblemlord...

Not playing top tier is fine. Not playing top tier but still claiming a desire to attain victory is what blows my mind.

 

[Deleted member]

Outside of run speed, Corrin has better mobility stats than Ike across the board. Having something as good as Lunge doesn't hurt either.

 

[ARGHETH]

Same air accel/decel, worse air speed, better dash, better walk, and worse run, so it's pretty mixed, but yeah DL is great for moving around.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Same air accel/decel, worse air speed, better dash, better walk, and worse run, so it's pretty mixed, but yeah DL is great for moving around.

The maxes for Corrin both on air and ground are worse yes. Which is the primary thing I'm talking about when it comes to mobility.

If you're counting DL for mobility then you also should count QD with its lagless landing from a fairly good height.

Overall, what I said is correct: Ike is faster than Corrin when it comes to movement. Not by much, but by a bit.

 

[ARGHETH]

The maxes for Corrin both on air and ground are worse yes. Which is the primary thing I'm talking about when it comes to mobility.

If you're counting DL for mobility then you also should count QD with its lagless landing from a fairly good height.

Overall, what I said is correct: Ike is faster than Corrin when it comes to movement. Not by much, but by a bit.

My main problem with this is that Ike's only slightly better in air and run speed (1.08/0.97 and 1.5/1.45), while Corrin's walk speed (1.15, 0.869) and Dash->shield (8, 11) are significantly better. So while Ike's faster in the air, I'd honestly say Corrin's better on the ground.

Adding in QD/DL, I' d say Ike's faster in the air and Corrin's faster on the ground.

 

[ARISTOS]

The maxes for Corrin both on air and ground are worse yes. Which is the primary thing I'm talking about when it comes to mobility.

If you're counting DL for mobility then you also should count QD with its lagless landing from a fairly good height.

Overall, what I said is correct: Ike is faster than Corrin when it comes to movement. Not by much, but by a bit.

Ike is slightly faster in movement without also having Dragon Lunge, which is an insane spatial control+movement option.

You can't compare the two because no one is using Quick Draw in neutral or anything apart from recovering.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

ignore this, damn phone

 

[|RK|]

Not every top tier is the same. I'd play Rosa and sheik.

Diddy is different for me.

Dude, Sheik is actually one of the funnest top tiers ever IMO. If she still had her 50/50, I'd consider replacing Lucario as my secondary.

---

Also, regarding the "not playing a top tier but wanting to attain victory" - some people have their own ways of attaining victory. Some people are fine with the much harder route. Personally, that's a reason I admire players like Xian over in Street Fighter and Hungrybox in Melee. Yeah, the latter mains a top tier for sure. But he goes through multiple matches in a 60:40 (or worse) MU every time he needs to win a tournament. The former is just a legend, and doesn't aim to be a low tier hero or whatever... just plays the characters he finds fun.

You could argue they should switch if they're serious about attaining victory... But they find the game most fun with their characters. And if you're not having fun anymore, your play suffers anyways. The people that use the fact that they don't main a top tier as a way to excuse their losses is what annoys me.

Anyways, off-topic spiel lmao.

---

On-topic - Ike question. Did he ever suffer before his results dropped? A lot of players of other character mention that they're dropping their character because they can't cut it or they've been struggling, etc. Ike looked like he was going up before he just fell off the map. What happened there?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

On-topic - Ike question. Did he ever suffer before his results dropped? A lot of players of other character mention that they're dropping their character because they can't cut it or they've been struggling, etc. Ike looked like he was going up before he just fell off the map. What happened there?

Corrin was released and Marth got buffs

I don't think Ike can ever be irrelevant or low tier though. He goes even with most top tiers with the only exceptions being Sheik and Diddy.

 

[Rizen]

Also, regarding the "not playing a top tier but wanting to attain victory" - some people have their own ways of attaining victory. Some people are fine with the much harder route. Personally, that's a reason I admire players like Xian over in Street Fighter and Hungrybox in Melee. Yeah, the latter mains a top tier for sure. But he goes through multiple matches in a 60:40 (or worse) MU every time he needs to win a tournament. The former is just a legend, and doesn't aim to be a low tier hero or whatever... just plays the characters he finds fun.

+1. I hate the term "low tier heroes". We low tier players aren't trying to be heroes, or "think we're better", or "have something to prove", or "don't care about winning". We play the character(s) we like. It's that simple.

 

[Dre89]

People keep saying Bowser will eventually be 'figured out'. He's already been figured out. He's probably the simplest character in the game. It's just that MU knowledge doesn't do that much for you because he can use his good dash and dashgrab to force 50/50s. If you shield he can dashgrab, if you attack he can shieldgrab it.

This is why I've been saying he's better than DK and pretty sleeper for over a year now. All of Bowser's strength is in like 2-3 options that cover everything between them.

This is also why I said he shouldn't get grab combos before he got them. Not only does he have a massive pivot grab, but his burst on passive opponents makes it so easy to get grabs considering the reward he gets from it now.

The difference with DK is that DK's dash and dashgrab are bad, so he can't burst on people zoning with hitboxes as easily. He's more reliant on punishing burst with his massive pivot grab. This gives his grab counterplay, because you can play in a certain way to minimise your chance at getting grabbed. Whereas Bowser is effective at getting grabs regardless of how you play, because his initial grab data was designed around not having high grab reward.

It bugs that me as a DK player, I can just learn Bowser's grab combos and immediately be more effective with much less effort due to him not needing to mix up between as many options as DK does. Bowser is basically better in every meaningful way except for offstage and takes less skill to play.

 

[|RK|]

Corrin was released and Marth got buffs

I don't think Ike can ever be irrelevant or low tier though. He goes even with most top tiers with the only exceptions being Sheik and Diddy.

That's depressing. Are there any good Ikes that are still active? Or are they literally all playing Corrin (or someone else)?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

+1. I hate the term "low tier heroes". We low tier players aren't trying to be heroes, or "think we're better", or "have something to prove", or "don't care about winning". We play the character(s) we like. It's that simple.

Thank you! We may not mind when buffs are flung our characters way or someone makes a showing in a tourney but we play who we like regardless of odds. If we get wins with them that's just an added bonus.

 

[The-Technique]

That's depressing. Are there any good Ikes that are still active? Or are they literally all playing Corrin (or someone else)?

Sans still plays Ike, also there's a few low key high level Ikes that place well at majors (top 16-64 range)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Corrin was released and Marth got buffs

I don't think Ike can ever be irrelevant or low tier though. He goes even with most top tiers with the only exceptions being Sheik and Diddy.

And Cloud released as well. That didn't help either.

ARISTOS Either we're counting only normal movement options, or we're including specials as well. Can't pick and choose when it does and doesn't count. The moment somebody start picking and choosing when something does or doesn't count different for characters, they're just changing the results in w/e manner the person feels like weighing them towards.

 

[ARISTOS]

ARISTOS Either we're counting only normal movement options, or we're including specials as well. Can't pick and choose when it does and doesn't count. The moment somebody start picking and choosing when something does or doesn't count different for characters, they're just changing the results in w/e manner the person feels like weighing them towards.

Why wouldn't we include specials as included in overall mobility? In any practical discussion, they will play an important move in how characters move around the stage.

In any meaningful discussion, Corrin's overall mobility is better than Ike, and it is largely thanks to DL that this is the case.

 

[Nah]

You don't really use Dragon Lunge to move around/as a mobility option though.

If you forced me to choose being Ike and Corrin for who has better mobility though, I would say Corrin because that dash is worth more than a slightly better air and run speed. But they both still have overall bad mobility anyway.

 

[Krysco]

What other characters had a decent to good player, but dropped off due to switching to a higher tier? ?

Tweek going from Jr to Cloud, Raziek going from Robin to Cloud, now there's Sethlon going from Roy to Cloud. Ashera damn that character...I say as he's probably my second best character though admittedly I feel like crap with every character except Roy right now.

Jr, Robin and Roy all lost noteworthy players and they all happened to go to Cloud.
There's also Nairo ditching Zelda, Robin and the Pits for ZSS (though ditch could be a bit of a strong word since he has also pulled out the lower tiered Bowser, Doc and Lucina)
Iirc M2K played DK before he went to Cloud. Could be completely off on that though.
Already mentioned but Abadango used PAC-MAN and Wario and technically he dropped off MK for M2 even though he still uses the former. Same applies to MKLeo since he focuses more on Cloud and Marth.
Trela used Zard and Swordfighter I believe before going to Ryu
I believe there's a player who was at first noteworthy for their D3 before they started focusing on Falcon and Mario. Big D perhaps? Forget the name.
I recall reading in this very thread before that Nakat dropped Pika. Assuming he focuses on Fox now. No idea if he still uses Ness.
Literally every Bayo main I'd imagine and whoever they previously used.

 

[Deleted member]

+1. I hate the term "low tier heroes". We low tier players aren't trying to be heroes, or "think we're better", or "have something to prove", or "don't care about winning". We play the character(s) we like. It's that simple.

'Tis a shame how shallow players can be. As someone who plays low tiers like Dr. Mario, Mr. Game & Watch, Link, Charizard, and Wario(?), I feel good knowing there are people who play "nonviable" characters just because they want to. We play them because it's our choice.

And Cloud, despite being a good character to have, is highly overrated if he's the only character everyone who drops someone goes to.

 

[Browny]

It's worse when people think you are being disrespectful by playing a low tier character, or not being serious. Nah I totally put dozens, if not hundreds of hours into this character and have used them since 64 because its just a prank bro.

At mid level play and lower at least, a lot of people severely underestimate the mental damage you can do to people when you get a lead with a low tier character. They start getting desperate, flubbing, complaining about a certain move even though the character is still bad overall. Sometimes it results in wins purely because of their frustration.

Personally I love playing low tiers because I believe it makes you better at fundamentals and you aren't relying on abusing certain moves in order to win.

But really its to watch some people have a mental breakdown when they lose.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It's worse when people think you are being disrespectful by playing a low tier character, or not being serious. Nah I totally put dozens, if not hundreds of hours into this character and have used them since 64 because its just a prank bro.

At mid level play and lower at least, a lot of people severely underestimate the mental damage you can do to people when you get a lead with a low tier character. They start getting desperate, flubbing, complaining about a certain move even though the character is still bad overall. Sometimes it results in wins purely because of their frustration.

Personally I love playing low tiers because I believe it makes you better at fundamentals and you aren't relying on abusing certain moves in order to win.

But really its to watch some people have a mental breakdown when they lose.

I keep seeing that people think you'd switch to ganondorf or charizard for quote en quote 'disrespect kills' but honestly I play zard because I invested so much time I literally can't play any other character competently. I tried playing Ludwig (one of the koopalings) and when I won I was asked if I was new since I simply spammed side b, I also tried using wii fit trainer, those fights never turned out well. It's only with zard that I have a 70% win record on FG.