Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

A thing I've been noticing, there's a lot of talk about the Japanese scene and its lack of consistency, but two things are very consistent:

-Shuton has only not gotten top 4 at three tournaments ever.
-And has maintained a fairly high level of results in Japan throughout all of 2016.

A couple takeaways from this--a couple months ago, there were some posts about how the sudden burst of Olimar results would die down--but in fact there was no sudden burst of Olimar results (Shuton has been one of the most consistent Japanese player in 2016), all that people were noticing was the increased usage of the character by Dabuz. And also what we all knew, that the non Japanese meta for Duck Hunt is still severely lagging. We tend to get to his recovery issue in discussions and stop there. My biggest question mark with DH is that he doesn't have a particular power player who always places well. He just has three good players who are individually inconsistent but add up to a lot of top eights for the character. Taiheita, other than the tournament yesterday, also has overall consistently good results.

Outside of a few things, I find Mr. R's tier list very agreeable. His placement of Roy in particular, as I also feel the character is underrated. His placements of Ike, Samus, and Shulk are things I can get behind as well.

I agree with Ramin placing Shulk above Ike. I've felt that way for the past couple of months now, actually.

This is my take on him.

Also poor , bottom 3 on Mr.R's list.



What do you guys think about ? I never hear much about him. Who are his top players?

Most notables he has atm are 8BitMan (he's in my state, mad scary player), OCEAN and Raffi-X.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Ike is rather fundamental heavy, like Marth. Leo's amazing fundamentals make Marth work out very well for him. Similarly, I think if someone with amazing fundamentals were to pick up Ike he'd do fairly well. Not Marth or even Corrin levels of success because Ike has more exploitable flaws that aren't as easy to work around as Marth or Corrin's but I think Ike could easily make top 24 or top 16 with a player with good fundamentals like Leo, Nairo, or Ally.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ike has a pretty damn good matchup spread, especially for how low he is on the current tier list. When his good players show up they do pretty well

 

[Deleted member]

Ike has a pretty damn good matchup spread, especially for how low he is on the current tier list. When his good players show up they do pretty well

Name some instances, please?

 

[ARGHETH]

Name some instances, please?

Main ones seem to be 33rd at TBH6, 17th at Shine, 33rd at 2GGT Aba Saga, 9th at Canada Cup, and 9th at GOML.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Ike has a pretty damn good matchup spread, especially for how low he is on the current tier list. When his good players show up they do pretty well

Kinda. He's not a fan of characters who can really screw with his recovery. They may travel a good distance and have some decent armor but they're very, very, very linear. If you can throw a projectile like needles, blade beam, or a fludd in his way you can knock him just out of his sweetspots for recovering. He also has a little bit of trouble getting out framed, which can be bad when combined with disjoint, so Marth and Cloud who also edge guard him pretty well.
I don't think he really gets trashed by anyone outside of maaaybe Sheik but other than that he's got a solid mid tier level MU spread.

 

[Deleted member]

Kinda. He's not a fan of characters who can really screw with his recovery. They may travel a good distance and have some decent armor but they're very, very, very linear. If you can throw a projectile like needles, blade beam, or a fludd in his way you can knock him just out of his sweetspots for recovering. He also has a little bit of trouble getting out framed, which can be bad when combined with disjoint, so Marth and Cloud who also edge guard him pretty well.
I don't think he really gets trashed by anyone outside of maaaybe Sheik but other than that he's got a solid mid tier level MU spread.

are pretty bad for him from what I hear. Though Nidtendofreak can probably answer your question indepth.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Main ones seem to be 33rd at TBH6, 17th at Shine, 33rd at 2GGT Aba Saga, 9th at Canada Cup, and 9th at GOML.

I was looking at Shine, GOML, and CC mostly, forgot about TBH6 and Aba Saga. Thank you, now I don't have to go confirm what I had in memory

are pretty bad for him from what I hear. Though Nidtendofreak can probably answer your question indepth.

You're forgetting his ****ty Sheik matchup

Kinda. He's not a fan of characters who can really screw with his recovery. They may travel a good distance and have some decent armor but they're very, very, very linear. If you can throw a projectile like needles, blade beam, or a fludd in his way you can knock him just out of his sweetspots for recovering. He also has a little bit of trouble getting out framed, which can be bad when combined with disjoint, so Marth and Cloud who also edge guard him pretty well.
I don't think he really gets trashed by anyone outside of maaaybe Sheik but other than that he's got a solid mid tier level MU spread.

I don't disagree with Ike's recovery being bad, but its not nearly as relevant in matchups as something like the neutral, which is something that Ike excels in. Sure, Mario may have a frame advantage, but Mario could end up tanking 40% because he tried to approach with bair and got shut down with an Ike nair

 

[The-Technique]

Ike is a decent character with good tools all around, but his biggest downfall is the fact that the majority of the meta relevant characters can exploit his poor disadvantage and extremely linear recovery.

The most unfortunate part is that buffing Ike any further than he already has been is risky, considering he has an absurdly good grab game, safe mid-range pokes, and being one of the characters that benefit the most from the rage mechanic

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So I don't see what's so bad about Ramin's tier list.

Yeah, Cloud is a bit too high and his placing of Bowser might be a bit too hype-based but other than that? He has the top 3 right! That alone makes his tier list a lot better than anybody else's. He's also just about the only top level player whose top 10 is exactly the one that's been 'established' in here for the last half years [at least] and yet people still disqualify it as 'just another top level tier list with no basis'. That's not fair. It's a better list than you all give it credit for.

 

[FeelMeUp]

People almost exclusively honing in on Bowser shows how good it is. Guy probably has the best tier list made so far.

 

[Peppermint1201]

What do you guys think about ? I never hear much about him. Who are his top players?

ROB's best reps are 8Bitman, Raffi-X, OCEAN, Holy, Long0uw, and to a lesser extent Mister Eric and Gyo.

ROB is weird because he has hilariously easy matchups with almost every low-tier but very difficult matchups with almost every top tier. The only low-tiers that give him trouble are Zelda, Palutena, Jigglypuff, and Game and Watch. Even among those, Zelda's the only one he actually loses the matchup to. The rest are inconsistent 50-50s probably. Meanwhile, every relevant character absolutely eats him alive, except for Ryu, Corrin, Marth, Megaman, Ness, and Luigi if he counts. Ness is probably the most relevant character that ROB beats, thanks to ROB's kit of projectiles and almost-disjointed aerials being great against low-mobility, high-grab-reward characters.

ROB's matchups with Mario, Pikachu, and ZSS are laughably bad. Like, it's sad. Watch one of the five million Raffi vs. Marss sets, or ESAM vs. Mister Eric at Apex. Meanwhile, his matchups with Wii Fit, Pac-Man, and Dedede could be won blindfolded.

Overall, ROB has such a bad matchup spread against the upper echelon of the cast that he will never be solo-viable. His saving graces are his strong X-factor with his powerful smashes/grabs, and his projectile game. These two things add a large element of inconsistency to his matchups, allowing him to beat characters he really "shouldn't" if his opponent lets him get momentum or isn't good at perfect shielding. He has the same problem DK and Bowser have, albeit less polarizing. Due to these factors, he will see high success at the local level and in Japan, but will seldom break top 32, let alone top 16, at a major.

 

[Yikarur]

Why are people not informed about europe at all?
I'm positive LoNg0uw is a Top3 in the world Rob.
And I don't think those mentioned MUs are that bad nowadays. (ZSS might be tho)

 

[Peppermint1201]

Why are people not informed about europe at all?
I'm positive LoNg0uw is a Top3 in the world Rob.
And I don't think those mentioned MUs are that bad nowadays. (ZSS might be tho)

oh my god i forgot about Longouw! thank you for reminding me.

Anyway, those matchups you listed **are** that bad, and I think "nowadays" is a weird thing to say because ROB is one of those characters that gets worse with time. When the game was new, people were worse at projectile control, scared to go offstage, and didn't know how to juggle. It is an inevitability of smash that offstage play and projectile counterplay get better as the metagame evolves, and ROB hates both. Yes, these matchups have gotten worse with time, and they will only get worse as the metagame continues to move forward. In fact, when the game was very new ROB had a tiny tiny small miniscule chance against ZSS because a lot of ZSSes weren't good against projectiles, but they've been forced to understand them to beat Diddy and that understanding carries over to destroying ROB even harder than she already did. ZSS has an Ice Climbers-esque ability to kill ROB off of grab due to his unfortunate combination of fall speed, size, weight, and aerial frame data.

/rant

Pikachu, and Mario have continued to optimize their combos and Marios have evolved their cape usage and FLUDD edgeguarding game. Similarly, Pikachus have improved their kill confirms and honed their edgeguarding even more. Not fun for ROB. Besides, even if we did live in an alternate universe in which Pikachu and Mario somehow evolved slower than ROB, one thing that has happened in recent times is the advent of Cloud, who can hit ROB into the air over and over again like a sad, sad balloon, even if the player hasn't kept their Cloud in practice.

 

[NegaNixx]

People almost exclusively honing in on Bowser shows how good it is. Guy probably has the best tier list made so far.

Western people also read in a Z formation. Bowser is the first person they would see in that regard. It's the first roadblock and it's sort of outrageous. So it's all they think they need to debunk it. Fallacy, but reality.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

are pretty bad for him from what I hear. Though Nidtendofreak can probably answer your question indepth.

Diddy and Sheik are both very bad MUs for him, which is an obvious major problem. Bayonetta as far as I know is still unknown but certainly losing to some degree. Fox is disadvantaged but certainly winnable, dude dies to a grab at the ledge at like... 40, 50%? Easier said then done, but its a super volatile MU both ways. Tends to be over very quickly one way or another.

Ike's number of advantaged MUs in the high tier range is also pretty low. He beats Sonic (despite people still not wanting to believe it, over numbers of who has beaten who is still pretty heavily in Ike's favour) and Lucario. Possibly Pikachu but that MU doesn't happen much at all. Pretty much everyone else in high/top tier is 45-55 or 50-50 from Ike's perspective. And then mostly 50-50 or 55-45s from Mid downwards, one or two more 45-55s and a few 60-40s.

I know a lot of people roll their eyes when they see a mid tier claiming "mostly neutral against everyone" but.... well how else do you put Ike's numbers? He gets juggled a lot, but he can combo into kills out of throws pretty well against everyone as well.

Ike's standing in people's eyes have been dropping because Ryuga like 90% dropped him and Ryo is kinda all over the place (Roy seems to be his most used now?). But San's results have been consistent throughout, and some of the other Ike mains are starting to get results. The last 4-5 weeks have actually had a noticeable spike in Ike results. So the number of mains Ike has has certainly dropped, but Ike's results from those mains have been as consistent as they were a year ago. Which is proof that as a character Ike hasn't gotten weaker against the current meta. The idea that say, Shulk is better or that Ike is low tier, is pretty laughable. About as laughable as Marth still being mid tier.

 

[MistressRemilia]

So, about the rise of Bowser lately...

This is basically what happens when you let a character rot under the shadow of another one for too long. A majority will be under the impression that, just because the character isn't getting results for the time being and that they're often talked about when discussing another character that shares a few aspects with said character, they're basically a worse version of the character mentionned above.

Bowser has been under the shadow of DK for way too long, and people were jumping to conclusions, not even letting the Bowser mains, who know that the character is in many ways different, argue against these clichés. I even remember at some point Dabuz asking in this very thread " Aside from UpB Oos & Jab, what does Bowser have to offer over DK? " ( no offense btw )
I hope now that everyone is aware that, despite his status of grappler, much like the likes of DK, Bowser also possesses one of the strongest ground game out there, with a very strong jab that allows him to poke characters' shield w/out any issue, intangible moves that allows him to counterpoke some characters well, even in situations of Grounded Bowser vs Opponent in the air ( UpSmash, among many other efficient tools ) , and his UpB, which is already quite insane Out of Shield, is also quite a reasonable neutral mixup to use. Despite the character's horrendous jumpsquat, his aerials pack so much of a punch in either knockback or damage that it almost compensates and allows for Bowser to make occasional use of them, some of them also being neat neutral mixups, due to the character still having some reasonable autocancels, with SH autocancel on Fair & Bair. Bowser's disadvantage is nothing like DK's, even though i'd still say it is bad, moreso in juggle situations: His status of semi-floaty allows him to not get combo'd as hard as you'd expect, and his UpB for recovering is much more flexible than you'd think at first glance. His command grab Side B also grants him a fairly reasonable way of mixing up ledge comeback attempts to be back to neutral state.

So yeah, as you can see right there, and as you should expect, Bowser plays out very differently from DK, or any heavyweight. Smashers' mindset tend to be overly simplistic and this is what this leads to: Two grappler heavyweights being compared all the time to the point of the less popular at the time being thought of having a neutral as lackluster in some ways than the other, and a disadvantage state just as bad. So please, don't be lazy & take the time to look over what each character has to offer in function of how their different tools of all kind in neutral play out. Bowser is not the 1st victim of this kind of stuff, and there are probably many more characters that are poorly thought of by many just because of this poor reasoning. ( Charizard comes to my mind )

 

[|RK|]

Once a really good Lucina shows up, I expect the same phenomenon to happen, tbh. Granted, most people accept that Marth moving up = Lucina moving up... but the extent to which that's true is as of yet unknown.

 

[Jams.]

oh my god i forgot about Longouw! thank you for reminding me.

Anyway, those matchups you listed **are** that bad, and I think "nowadays" is a weird thing to say because ROB is one of those characters that gets worse with time. When the game was new, people were worse at projectile control, scared to go offstage, and didn't know how to juggle. It is an inevitability of smash that offstage play and projectile counterplay get better as the metagame evolves, and ROB hates both. Yes, these matchups have gotten worse with time, and they will only get worse as the metagame continues to move forward. In fact, when the game was very new ROB had a tiny tiny small miniscule chance against ZSS because a lot of ZSSes weren't good against projectiles, but they've been forced to understand them to beat Diddy and that understanding carries over to destroying ROB even harder than she already did. ZSS has an Ice Climbers-esque ability to kill ROB off of grab due to his unfortunate combination of fall speed, size, weight, and aerial frame data.

/rant

Pikachu, and Mario have continued to optimize their combos and Marios have evolved their cape usage and FLUDD edgeguarding game. Similarly, Pikachus have improved their kill confirms and honed their edgeguarding even more. Not fun for ROB. Besides, even if we did live in an alternate universe in which Pikachu and Mario somehow evolved slower than ROB, one thing that has happened in recent times is the advent of Cloud, who can hit ROB into the air over and over again like a sad, sad balloon, even if the player hasn't kept their Cloud in practice.

8BitMan, who probably has the most experience in the Pikachu MU, thinks this MU is even (he provided a more thorough explanation here, it basically comes down to outboxing Pikachu and being able to live for a long time). and seem like the most widely agreed upon worst MUs for ROB after ZSS.

 

[Peppermint1201]

8BitMan, who probably has the most experience in the Pikachu MU, thinks this MU is even (he provided a more thorough explanation here, it basically comes down to outboxing Pikachu and being able to live for a long time). and seem like the most widely agreed upon worst MUs for ROB after ZSS.

True, I should've thought of those two. Both of them expose ROB's lack of landing options much more so than Mario or Pika. Thanks for the link to the explanation as well.

 

[Pazzo.]

I know the stock 99 cent dollar answer is "Slower Patient Meta"...

But why is Duck Hunt able to do anything in Japan against the likes of Cloud?

 

[Aaron1997]

Pazzo. Because unlike most people they don't complain about Cloud being OP and instead Lab out the match-up and fine ways to punish and take advantage of his weaknesses. This is what True Mid/Low tier mains do. At a tourney after Cloud came out. Brood/Raito was eliminated by FILIP's Cloud. After that, the Top 3 DH's met up one day just to find a strategy to beat Cloud.

You3 had a dream tourney, He took out 2 of the best Clouds in Japan with DHD. He deserves to win that tourney just because of that.

The US Ain't ready for the JP DHD's. DH is like a completely different character over there.

 

[L9999]

Once a really good Lucina shows up, I expect the same phenomenon to happen, tbh. Granted, most people accept that Marth moving up = Lucina moving up... but the extent to which that's true is as of yet unknown.

That would only happen if Kogarasuma rose a couple tiers or Nairo invested more time on Lucina. It can happen but for now "but the tipper" is the popular argument the character has to endure.

I know the stock 99 cent dollar answer is "Slower Patient Meta"...

But why is Duck Hunt able to do anything in Japan against the likes of Cloud?

On the topic of Duck Hunt Dog I'll leave this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxi0hpaIAFg

 

[Peppermint1201]

I know the stock 99 cent dollar answer is "Slower Patient Meta"...

But why is Duck Hunt able to do anything in Japan against the likes of Cloud?

He can edgeguard with no commitment thanks to his projectiles, and Japanese mid-tier players are just dedicated, plain and simple. The community over there is more closely knit as well, so they may know certain cloud players' habits if they've played them before in person or on Sumamate.

 

[Dre89]

So, about the rise of Bowser lately...

This is basically what happens when you let a character rot under the shadow of another one for too long. A majority will be under the impression that, just because the character isn't getting results for the time being and that they're often talked about when discussing another character that shares a few aspects with said character, they're basically a worse version of the character mentionned above.

Bowser has been under the shadow of DK for way too long, and people were jumping to conclusions, not even letting the Bowser mains, who know that the character is in many ways different, argue against these clichés. I even remember at some point Dabuz asking in this very thread " Aside from UpB Oos & Jab, what does Bowser have to offer over DK? " ( no offense btw )
I hope now that everyone is aware that, despite his status of grappler, much like the likes of DK, Bowser also possesses one of the strongest ground game out there, with a very strong jab that allows him to poke characters' shield w/out any issue, intangible moves that allows him to counterpoke some characters well, even in situations of Grounded Bowser vs Opponent in the air ( UpSmash, among many other efficient tools ) , and his UpB, which is already quite insane Out of Shield, is also quite a reasonable neutral mixup to use. Despite the character's horrendous jumpsquat, his aerials pack so much of a punch in either knockback or damage that it almost compensates and allows for Bowser to make occasional use of them, some of them also being neat neutral mixups, due to the character still having some reasonable autocancels, with SH autocancel on Fair & Bair. Bowser's disadvantage is nothing like DK's, even though i'd still say it is bad, moreso in juggle situations: His status of semi-floaty allows him to not get combo'd as hard as you'd expect, and his UpB for recovering is much more flexible than you'd think at first glance. His command grab Side B also grants him a fairly reasonable way of mixing up ledge comeback attempts to be back to neutral state.

So yeah, as you can see right there, and as you should expect, Bowser plays out very differently from DK, or any heavyweight. Smashers' mindset tend to be overly simplistic and this is what this leads to: Two grappler heavyweights being compared all the time to the point of the less popular at the time being thought of having a neutral as lackluster in some ways than the other, and a disadvantage state just as bad. So please, don't be lazy & take the time to look over what each character has to offer in function of how their different tools of all kind in neutral play out. Bowser is not the 1st victim of this kind of stuff, and there are probably many more characters that are poorly thought of by many just because of this poor reasoning. ( Charizard comes to my mind )

I've been saying Bowser that is better than DK for like a year now.

This is why I can't take tier lists seriously. I had to wait for for Nairo to bust him out for the community to catch up to my opinion.

The reality is players like Zero/Nairo could have made literally any character in the game be considered top 10 had they mained them from the start of the game.

Pretty much any character's placement besides Diddy/Sheik/Cloud is dependent on who has good players playing them. Obviously some characters are better than others, but these tier lists are just more about who happens to have to good players. Anything outside out of those top 3 is too arbitray for me to take seriously.

 

[Deleted member]

So what I'm seeing is, come tier list v3.0, the lower tiered characters will probably have no noteworthy players since they're so "nonviable".

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've been saying Bowser that is better than DK for like a year now.

This is why I can't take tier lists seriously. I had to wait for for Nairo to bust him out for the community to catch up to my opinion.

The reality is players like Zero/Nairo could have made literally any character in the game be considered top 10 had they mained them from the start of the game.

Pretty much any character's placement besides Diddy/Sheik/Cloud is dependent on who has good players playing them. Obviously some characters are better than others, but these tier lists are just more about who happens to have to good players. Anything outside out of those top 3 is too arbitray for me to take seriously.

Do I have to repeat what I said twice already in this very thread (admittedly around fifty pages back) the pattern is so consistent it's like clockwork.
Player A makes a showing at major Tourny B using a mid-tier to mid-lower tier character, a bandwagon effect happens and people opinions change on the character causing them to be overestimated.
Meanwhile mid-low tier characters are ignored because
a)noone plays or labs them therefore no herd mentality bandwagon effect.
b)The character or characters are constantly and consistently underestimated on the tier charts despite massive labbing that points to the contrary.
The reason I main charizard besides character loyalty is that he's constantly underestimated and people aren't familiar with him despite some solo zard players making some top 16 (but not top 8) showings at locals and majors.
It's stupid tough to tell where the lower to mid-tiers fit because noone plays them though they are labbed...

 

[Deleted member]

Do I have to repeat what I said twice already in this very thread (admittedly around fifty pages back) the pattern is so consistent it's like clockwork. Player A makes a showing at major Tourny B using a mid-tier to mid-lower tier character, a bandwagon effect happens and people opinions change on the character causing them to be overestimated.
Meanwhile mid-low tier characters are ignored because
a)noone plays or labs them therefore no herd mentality bandwagon effect.
b)The character or characters are constantly and consistently underestimated on the tier charts despite massive labbing that points to the contrary.
The reason I main charizard besides character loyalty is that he's constantly underestimated and people aren't familiar with him despite some solo zard players making some top 16 (but not top 8) showings at locals and majors.
It's stupid tough to tell where the lower to mid-tiers fit because noone plays them though they are labbed...

I agree, because again, every character has something good with them, the player just needs to know just about everything about the character. Charizard, as you said, is definitely a good example, and just because Bowser is overshadowing DK by a lot now, it doesn't mean DK is unplayable. Shulk is another good mention for reasons already explained.

 

[HoSmash4]

Duck Hunt isnt as bad as people think.

 

[outfoxd]

Near as I can tell the DH players over there just don't give two craps about what people say about their character.

 

[Pazzo.]

All it takes is one skilled player to switch characters in the middle of a tournament for people to raise the isolated event on a platform.

Take Doctor Mario. Nairo pulls the character out, it's the dawn of a new world.

Not saying Bowser is bad, but this has happened before. (Unless Nairo went the entire thing with Bowser because I'm dumb and only inferring that this is a repeat of the Doc.)

 

[Peppermint1201]

All it takes is one skilled player to switch characters in the middle of a tournament for people to raise the isolated event on a platform.

Take Doctor Mario. Nairo pulls the character out, it's the dawn of a new world.

Not saying Bowser is bad, but this has happened before. (Unless Nairo went the entire thing with Bowser because I'm dumb and only inferring that this is a repeat of the Doc.)

as if that weren't bad enough, people always use it to leverage the "counterpick meta" meme. it doesn't exist, people! at the very least, it'll take a while.

 

[Routa]

This whole Bowser thing reminds me from the Smawler drama. People only talk about the pros (and make them sound far better than they really are) when it comes to characters that they have hard time dealing with. How to beat Bowser? Don't get grabbed. Same thing with Smawler. Ofc easier said than done, but it will take a while till people learn how to deal with Bowser and his grab game. Many have already learned how to deal with it.
I think that the top of the top players are just not experienced enough when it comes to Bowser.
And yes I did indeed oversimplify the Bowser thing, but I'm on the phone and on a vacation so **** it.

 

[The-Technique]

as if that weren't bad enough, people always use it to leverage the "counterpick meta" meme. it doesn't exist, people! at the very least, it'll take a while.

Is counterpicking overrated? Maybe. Is it nonexistent? Now that's stretching it.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Is counterpicking overrated? Maybe. Is it nonexistent? Now that's stretching it.

i'm not saying it's nonexistent. i'm saying that won't be a crucial part of the meta like many people predict it to be. i agree that although it can work, it is overrated as-is.

 

[L9999]

So what I'm seeing is, come tier list v3.0, the lower tiered characters will probably have no noteworthy players since they're so "nonviable".

With all due respect, low tiers are low tiers for a reason.

Is counterpicking overrated? Maybe. Is it nonexistent? Now that's stretching it.

If you look at the tournament results posted in the thread by various members, most of the time the top 8/16s are composed of solo mains or dual mains. The only ones on top of my head that have appeared with "counterpicks" as how the meta is hyped are Nairo (Lucina, Bowser, random like Ryu), ANTi (Sheik, ZSS, random) and Kameme (Sheik, Yoshi, Wario, random). 3 out of everyone that plays this game. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ARISTOS]

Some interesting conversations happening.

Do I have to repeat what I said twice already in this very thread (admittedly around fifty pages back) the pattern is so consistent it's like clockwork.
Player A makes a showing at major Tourny B using a mid-tier to mid-lower tier character, a bandwagon effect happens and people opinions change on the character causing them to be overestimated.
Meanwhile mid-low tier characters are ignored because
a)noone plays or labs them therefore no herd mentality bandwagon effect.
b)The character or characters are constantly and consistently underestimated on the tier charts despite massive labbing that points to the contrary.
The reason I main charizard besides character loyalty is that he's constantly underestimated and people aren't familiar with him despite some solo zard players making some top 16 (but not top 8) showings at locals and majors.
It's stupid tough to tell where the lower to mid-tiers fit because noone plays them though they are labbed...

Off the top of my head there have only been two characters that have gained prominence over the past two years directly as a results of meta development rather than any patches (you might add to that pool).

Everyone else has either gotten stronger through patches or were originally strong but fell out of favor as the meta progressed.

This is not to say you shouldn't do what you want, but that the reality is that the side of fighting for a characters meta vs accepting what they are is one that you are likely to lose.

Is counterpicking overrated? Maybe. Is it nonexistent? Now that's stretching it.

Counterpick Cloud has been pretty good, though I think the idea of matches turning into CP wars has not played out in reality.

 

[|RK|]

Counterpick Cloud has been pretty good, though I think the idea of matches turning into CP wars has not played out in reality.

Yup. Again, when ANTi, Kameme, and Nairo got together, counterpicking went badly for them because it messed up their trees. At some point, you need to be able to deal with bad MUs. That's actually part of the logic of Lucario being my secondary - his worst MU goes even with or is beaten by my main, and most of his other MUs are -1... completely doable. Going after the perfect +2 MUs every time will only hurt you. Yet another reason Cloud's so good as a CP in theory. Of course, your main needs to be able to cover Sheik and Bayo.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Unfortunately, customs likely won't ever make it back, even if a majority of players want them, because a certain number of players absolutely won't play in a tournament where they're legal. (Nassim Nicholas Taleb wrote a great article on this sort of group dynamic, and I heartily recommend reading it.) Please stop saying customs DK is good.

Marth is very good, though I don't know exactly how good. I'm kinda irked by that.

I'm a Roy fan, and I was hoping he'd get a chance to shine in Smash 4, but obviously he's lacking, and buffs haven't done nearly enough to address his flaws (mainly, his risk/reward ratio is way off). As advantage states get more developed, I can only see Roy getting worse. So who's going to carry the Fire Emblem torch?

Alright, I thought, maybe this game will be Ike's breakthrough. Or maybe Robin will end up making noise. I was never really on the Corrin hype train, but sure, why not.

But no, Nintendo just buffs Marth straight to top level since they already know what Marth needs to be good in a Smash game.

Look, this is just a salt post, and honestly, truly, I'm happy for the Marth loyalists. Tons of people played him when he was bad. and I know it feels wonderful to have your main get a shot in the arm. I play Mewtwo, for Christ's sake. I just wanted to see different characters make a splash. Ganon's the worst on the roster for two games in a row (I believe this, and I am willing to have a debate about it.). Has Link ever really been a threat? Has Samus ever been even a high tier? Will Zelda ever not be trash? And these are Nintendo mainstays, even if Metroid seems to be dead in the water as a franchise. This sucks, man.

I guess this whole thing applies to Fox too, and it's not Marth's fault. Overall, it's good to have another viable character. I guess the Marth buffs just hammer home a lot of the wasted potential of other characters for me. It's not about Marth being good so much as it's about Zelda sucking, I suppose.

That's enough bitterness.

One thing that has become clearer as Smash 4 has developed is how recovering isn't actually all that easy in a world without ledge hogging. It's usually possible to get back to the ledge, but getting off the ledge and back to neutral can be the difference between viable and nonviable for a character, and I think players didn't really understand that when the game first came out. You may not get spiked to your death, but there's a good chance you'll get suffocated trying to return to an even playing field. ZeRo obviously makes this apparent in his play.

 

[The-Technique]

Counterpick Cloud has been pretty good, though I think the idea of matches turning into CP wars has not played out in reality.

Counterpick Cloud has very...varied levels of success. On one hand you have Mr. R beating Dabuz with Cloud after losing 2 games in a row with Sheik, but on the other hand you have ZeRo switching to Cloud and still getting bodied by Ally.