Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Look, this is just a salt post, and honestly, truly, I'm happy for the Marth loyalists. Tons of people played him when he was bad. and I know it feels wonderful to have your main get a shot in the arm. I play Mewtwo, for Christ's sake. I just wanted to see different characters make a splash. Ganon's the worst on the roster for two games in a row (I believe this, and I am willing to have a debate about it.). Has Link ever really been a threat? Has Samus ever been even a high tier? Will Zelda ever not be trash? And these are Nintendo mainstays, even if Metroid seems to be dead in the water as a franchise. This sucks, man.

I guess this whole thing applies to Fox too, and it's not Marth's fault. Overall, it's good to have another viable character. I guess the Marth buffs just hammer home a lot of the wasted potential of other characters for me. It's not about Marth being good so much as it's about Zelda sucking, I suppose.

We are seeing different characters make a splash. Mario has never been top level viable before. Mewtwo was barely finished garbage in Melee, and he's a top 5 threat now. Pikachu is the most viable he's been since 64.

Marth getting up there might be "same old, same old", but he's an extremely popular character largely thanks to this series. Would a majority of fans (of FE or Smash) prefer any FE character besides maybe Roy be top tier? Not a chance.

It's funny this should pop up today because just yesterday I was thinking about the amazing strength and diversity of popular characters in this game, third and first party.

Sure, most of the Zelda characters are still crappy, but we're not talking about a top tier made up entirely of obscure side characters from games no-one played. Mario is Nintendo's most beloved character and Mewtwo, whilst not as famous as Pikachu, is not far behind. Cloud, Sonic and Ryu are immensely popular. Bayonetta, whilst less well-known, was literally a gift to the community from the ballot and is top tier. Moving further down the list we have Pikachu and at least a viable version of Link. Remember that Luigi, Yoshi and DK have had bursts of high-tier euphoria as well.

Obviously this isn't perfect since characters like Sheik, ZSS, Rosa and arguably Diddy & Fox aren't Nintendo mainstays but overall I've been blown away by the fact that character popularity and strength is more correlated than ever. It doesn't actually matter for the purpose of playing the game, but it's very cool to see.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

We are seeing different characters make a splash. Mario has never been top level viable before. Mewtwo was barely finished garbage in Melee, and he's a top 5 threat now. Pikachu is the most viable he's been since 64.

Marth getting up there might be "same old, same old", but he's an extremely popular character largely thanks to this series. Would a majority of fans (of FE or Smash) prefer any FE character besides maybe Roy be top tier? Not a chance.

It's funny this should pop up today because just yesterday I was thinking about the amazing strength and diversity of popular characters in this game, third and first party.

Sure, most of the Zelda characters are still crappy, but we're not talking about a top tier made up entirely of obscure side characters from games no-one played. Mario is Nintendo's most beloved character and Mewtwo, whilst not as famous as Pikachu, is not far behind. Cloud, Sonic and Ryu are immensely popular. Bayonetta, whilst less well-known, was literally a gift to the community from the ballot and is top tier. Moving further down the list we have Pikachu and at least a viable version of Link. Remember that Luigi, Yoshi and DK have had bursts of high-tier euphoria as well.

Obviously this isn't perfect since characters like Sheik, ZSS, Rosa and arguably Diddy & Fox aren't Nintendo mainstays but overall I've been blown away by the fact that character popularity and strength is more correlated than ever. It doesn't actually matter for the purpose of playing the game, but it's very cool to see.

True! I had forgotten how Mario wasn't a top flight threat before, and I'm actually fortunate to live in fear of Mewtwo nerfs (plz leave my large psychic cat son alone, Sakurai). Also, I should say that being somewhere in high tier, like Toon Link, isn't a bad spot, all things considered. I suppose I'm just irritated by the persistence of a few failed designs for what I feel are iconic characters, but Smash 4 has brought us many new viable contenders.

Earning my bread as an editor has made a nitpicking whinger of me.

(But I will whinge about Zelda 'til the universe is cold and still.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But why is Duck Hunt able to do anything in Japan against the likes of Cloud?

Because their DH players are actually good at the game.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Will Zelda ever not be trash?

Absolutely... but only when she's in ninja garb.

Though regarding the point that certain players would absolutely refuse to take part in tournaments where custom moves are legal, is there anything wrong with just... letting those people not take part and carrying on as normal anyway? At the risk of sounding a bit harsh, it's no one else's responsibility if they don't want to accept change...

Granted, a lot of bottom tier characters wouldn't be helped much because their customs are also terrible and provide little additional utility (*glances sideways at Zelda and Jigglypuff*), but on principle I've always contended that the only somewhat valid justification for not having custom moves is how tedious and cumbersome it is to obtain them for every character...

One thing that has become clearer as Smash 4 has developed is how recovering isn't actually all that easy in a world without ledge hogging. It's usually possible to get back to the ledge, but getting off the ledge and back to neutral can be the difference between viable and nonviable for a character, and I think players didn't really understand that when the game first came out. You may not get spiked to your death, but there's a good chance you'll get suffocated trying to return to an even playing field. ZeRo obviously makes this apparent in his play.

ITA, and I'm extremely grateful to you for saying it. In fact, exploiting 2 frames on recovery, even though it's a very well-known phenomena, is still fairly underutilised if you ask me (except maybe against Rosalina)

 

[Trunks159]

It is unnecessary to risk a part of our community for something we don't really gain much from. I'm all for customs but I can practically guarantee we will not see them legal again.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Can we stop opening the metaphorical can of worms on customs? It has nothing to do with this thread and creates a page full of 50% useless arguments and 50% "stop posting about customs!!!"

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Zelda will unfortunately never be good until she isn't designed to be the opposite of Shiek. One hits weakly but has tons of combos to rack up damage the other hits hard but doesn't have as many damage racking combos, one is incredibly agile and quick the other is slow slow slow, one employes mostly physical attacks the other magical, etc. When your designed to be the opposite of a character who's been top tier in 2/3 games they've been in chance are your or going to be so great a character.

It made sense when they were one fighter as you could swap when the situation needed but they are separate now I can see they've started to make this change in Smash 4 Zelda so here's to Smash 5 Zelda becoming the top tier she deserves everyone else has had their chance before lol

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zelda's design can work if she can make people approach her, she always has had great defensive and punish tools. What she lacks is a way to make her opponent play into them.

Fixing Side B and making it so she actually can kind of approach better would do wonders for her. She doesn't need much more than that, a lot of her kit works outside of that one aspect of speed and a decent Side B.

She has some absurd kill potential in her kit but has difficulty utilizing it.

 

[Bobalicious]

Zelda's design can work if she can make people approach her, she always has had great defensive and punish tools. What she lacks is a way to make her opponent play into them.

Fixing Side B and making it so she actually can kind of approach better would do wonders for her. She doesn't need much more than that, a lot of her kit works outside of that one aspect of speed and a decent Side B.

She has some absurd kill potential in her kit but has difficulty utilizing it.

Also to note her many kill set ups with Dtilt, Dthrow, and Falling Nair. But yes, she does need a way to force approaches. She only has Nair as an actual approach and it's pretty lackluster. This may just be a thought, but maybe Din's Fire is only considered very terrible due to it being on Zelda. Especially since she needs a projectile that could force an approach but instead got this as a substitute. Maybe on like Sheik, Rosalina, etc. it would just be considered as an extra option.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also to note her many kill set ups with Dtilt, Dthrow, and Falling Nair. But yes, she does need a way to force approaches. She only has Nair as an actual approach and it's pretty lackluster. This may just be a thought, but maybe Din's Fire is only considered very terrible due to it being on Zelda. Especially since she needs a projectile that could force an approach but instead got this as a substitute. Maybe on like Sheik, Rosalina, etc. it would just be considered as an extra option.

It's the delay it has that causes problems, you wait for the "ya!" then just shield/air dodge it. If it forced traps or pressure like Robin's Arc Fire then it would work a lot better for her.

Even on other characters it wouldn't be great either, Sheik's Grenade is mostly a bad move in the same ways Zelda's is. Too easy to react to and doesn't really apply good enough pressure on it's own.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

For what it's worth I've seen more Shieks lately use Grenade as another method of edge guarding. It's not so much going to hit but it does force opponents away from the blast which can make them recover higher and then Shiek can go cover those options. Din's Fire's hitbox isn't active as long as Grenade but maybe their is some use in using it in a similar manner?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Upon binge watching/re-watching a huge deal of Leo's Marth sets vs multiple players, it's come to my attention that he really doesn't utilise Dthrow to Dolphin Slash to it's fullest. I often wonder if people realise that this is a thing actually... I never hear people talk about it.

Leo's Dthrow grab game is generally very good. The windows for combos are extremely tight but he hits them almost every time.

Past around 90%-ish, Marth's Dthrow will not follow up into anything. This can be kind of a bummer for Marth, because his Uthrow will not start KO'ing until around 160-170%.

Between this range, unless based on stage positioning (near the edge, might use F/Bthrow), like any Marth player, he opts for Dthrow because it deals that 1% extra damage. However, he never, ever used Dolphin Slash to get that extra percent.

Here's what I am talking about (this link plays at the exact timestamp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPEEtexc0Q&t=20m24s

Never once in his whole time as a Marth have I seen Leo do this.

Taking the most recent set I have watched, here are a few examples when this would have worked:

• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=73
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=300
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=456
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=657

Some of you might be thinking "It's only 7% extra damage, it's no big deal", and to that I say, sure, ok, but what's the point in not utilising a free combo like this? Extra damage is extra damage. Using the first link I posted (the actual example), not many characters have access to a true 22% throw combo at that high percent.

To be fair, I don't see anybody talk about this option Marth has, which makes me wonder if people even know it existed (aside from the Marth players who watched the whole of that guide). As a Marth user, it's a very handy option for getting opponents up to that Uthrow KO percent. I'm not saying that you should be actively looking for grabs past 90%; it's still FAR better to be playing the spacing game. My point is, if you get a grab, you have no excuse for not going for this option.

Essentially, Marth's Dthrow has true combo/followup potential until around 140%. No KO setups past 90%, but followups nonetheless.

 

[iiJjRr]

I feel like that Cloud is going to be dropped.

 

[Luigi player]

Upon binge watching/re-watching a huge deal of Leo's Marth sets vs multiple players, it's come to my attention that he really doesn't utilise Dthrow to Dolphin Slash to it's fullest. I often wonder if people realise that this is a thing actually... I never hear people talk about it.

Leo's Dthrow grab game is generally very good. The windows for combos are extremely tight but he hits them almost every time.

Past around 90%-ish, Marth's Dthrow will not follow up into anything. This can be kind of a bummer for Marth, because his Uthrow will not start KO'ing until around 160-170%.

Between this range, unless based on stage positioning (near the edge, might use F/Bthrow), like any Marth player, he opts for Dthrow because it deals that 1% extra damage. However, he never, ever used Dolphin Slash to get that extra percent.

Here's what I am talking about (this link plays at the exact timestamp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPEEtexc0Q&t=20m24s

Never once in his whole time as a Marth have I seen Leo do this.

Taking the most recent set I have watched, here are a few examples when this would have worked:

• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=73
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=300
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=456
  
• https://youtu.be/_AKokp9rXcE?t=657

Some of you might be thinking "It's only 7% extra damage, it's no big deal", and to that I say, sure, ok, but what's the point in not utilising a free combo like this? Extra damage is extra damage. Using the first link I posted (the actual example), not many characters have access to a true 22% throw combo at that high percent.

To be fair, I don't see anybody talk about this option Marth has, which makes me wonder if people even know it existed (aside from the Marth players who watched the whole of that guide). As a Marth user, it's a very handy option for getting opponents up to that Uthrow KO percent. I'm not saying that you should be actively looking for grabs past 90%; it's still FAR better to be playing the spacing game. My point is, if you get a grab, you have no excuse for not going for this option.

Essentially, Marth's Dthrow has true combo/followup potential until around 140%. No KO setups past 90%, but followups nonetheless.

There are three possibilities I'd guess:

1: he just doesn't know about it
2: it could be risky if you miss the timing (don't know how much time you have to pull it off, but if you miss the opponent could punish you hard)
3: you have better positioning when just waiting below and trying to catch their landing (there's also some kind of mixup potential when you just jump up, making them waste their doublejump to avoid a follow up on an airdodge/no airdodge read)

I've seen it get used, but was never sure when exactly it is/can be true, but I don't play Marth too much so I never looked into it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

There are three possibilities I'd guess:

1: he just doesn't know about it
2: it could be risky if you miss the timing (don't know how much time you have to pull it off, but if you miss the opponent could punish you hard)
3: you have better positioning when just waiting below and trying to catch their landing (there's also some kind of mixup potential when you just jump up, making them waste their doublejump to avoid a follow up on an airdodge/no airdodge read)

I've seen it get used, but was never sure when exactly it is/can be true, but I don't play Marth too much so I never looked into it.

In regards to timing, it's very easy to do - actually easier to do so than doing a regular Dthrow to Uair (of which the window is extremely tight at any percent). The only thing you need to do is react to the DI (as with any combo), jump, and Dolphin Slash. It's definitely true, as Izaw showed us, and the window is quite lenient (if used too early, such as sub 70%, then the opponent can airdodge out due to not inflicting enough hitstun. Past 90% it is more than fine). Depending on weight and fall speed etc, it can work from anywhere up to 120%-140%; for example, it stops working earlier on characters like Samus due to a combination of heavy weight and floatiness, but works for a bit longer on Sheik due to being light and a fast faller.

But in regards to positioning, that is still a thing you "give up" in a sense. However, upon hitting the opponent with the Dolphin Slash, you simply fast fall back to the stage, and you still have frame advantage on your opponent. It's impossible for the opponent to punish, so you still follow what they do in a similar fashion to just using Dthrow anyway.

It's even an alternative to Bthrow if your back is turned to the ledge and you want them facing off stage.

Of note, if they opt to recover to the ledge after being launched by Dolphin Slash, I'd say this is a bigger advantage anyway; Marth's ledge trapping game is extremely good.

With simply using Dthrow, past around 90%, nothing is true, so the opponent should be simply jumping away anyway. Mixups or catching airdodges would be nice if you had a simply powerful aerial, like say, Ike's Bair or Mewtwo's Fair, but Marth has to space on top of this, so actually KO'ing off of this is still unlikely.

 

[meleebrawler]

For what it's worth I've seen more Shieks lately use Grenade as another method of edge guarding. It's not so much going to hit but it does force opponents away from the blast which can make them recover higher and then Shiek can go cover those options. Din's Fire's hitbox isn't active as long as Grenade but maybe their is some use in using it in a similar manner?

Stuff like that is the best use of these kinds of moves. You just need speed and/or low enough endlag on the move to get stuff out of them. Of all the manually detonated projectiles in Smash 4, Lucas's PK Freeze reigns supreme in this regard.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Stuff like that is the best use of these kinds of moves. You just need speed and/or low enough endlag on the move to get stuff out of them. Of all the manually detonated projectiles in Smash 4, Lucas's PK Freeze reigns supreme in this regard.

Random question: didn't you used to have Alex from street fighter as your profile picture? Back in the days when metaknight was top tier?

EDIT so I don't get in trouble: umm yeah guys, Marth's Dthrow to dolphiny slash is legit. I think it's combos or something.

serious EDIT: Been playing a lot of DK lately, what this guy do against Rosa? How do I get off the ledge?

 

[NairWizard]

Good point on Zelda's "ya."

It's much easier to react to audio cues than video cues.

For those of you can't consistently punish rolls you know are coming, it's because you're reacting to the roll animation and not to the roll sound. Learn the roll sound for each character and get those hard reads. It's probably the least investment for the most reward you can get in this game, will win you several games that you had no right to win otherwise.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DH is actually

serious EDIT: Been playing a lot of DK lately, what this guy do against Rosa? How do I get off the ledge?

You don't. Its literally not worth the time and effort to try and get back up, by the time you do there's going to be so little time left on the clock that Rosa can just time you out

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpeIdfGugx4

For anyone interested, IzAw released Art of Lucario.

 

[Fenny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpeIdfGugx4

For anyone interested, IzAw released Art of Lucario.

Taunt -> Get Bodied -> Aura Boost -> ??? -> GAME SET

If this isn't in the video as a battle plan then it's a misleading guide

 

[Deleted member]

serious EDIT: Been playing a lot of DK lately, what this guy do against Rosa? How do I get off the ledge?

I'd get rid of Luma as quick as possible so you don't get forced to the ledge a lot.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'd get rid of Luma as quick as possible so you don't get forced to the ledge a lot.

This, so much this.
Rosalina's luma has all of her knockback and range, it's better to focus on luma rather than rosalina because then she's forced to play evasively and loses all of her knockback, range, and mixups.
Luma is super important to rosalina so get rid of that and Rosalina, while not helpless, suddenly has to play a stalling game while she waits to get another luma putting her in a seriously unfavorable position.
I main zard which should be at a disadvantage but....after all the times i've faced her I've found that once luma is gone, the tables are turned and it's much easier to apply pressure.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

Those are really just the qualities that make a good character. Therein lies the problem, huh?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Those are really just the qualities that make a good character. Therein lies the problem, huh?

Well, yeah.
Of course a top 3 character would only have trouble with other good characters.
Can't expect ya Zeldas and Palutenas to be able to deal with the Witch

 

[NegaNixx]

In regards to timing, it's very easy to do - actually easier to do so than doing a regular Dthrow to Uair (of which the window is extremely tight at any percent). The only thing you need to do is react to the DI (as with any combo), jump, and Dolphin Slash. It's definitely true, as Izaw showed us, and the window is quite lenient (if used too early, such as sub 70%, then the opponent can airdodge out due to not inflicting enough hitstun. Past 90% it is more than fine). Depending on weight and fall speed etc, it can work from anywhere up to 120%-140%; for example, it stops working earlier on characters like Samus due to a combination of heavy weight and floatiness, but works for a bit longer on Sheik due to being light and a fast faller.

But in regards to positioning, that is still a thing you "give up" in a sense. However, upon hitting the opponent with the Dolphin Slash, you simply fast fall back to the stage, and you still have frame advantage on your opponent. It's impossible for the opponent to punish, so you still follow what they do in a similar fashion to just using Dthrow anyway.

It's even an alternative to Bthrow if your back is turned to the ledge and you want them facing off stage.

Of note, if they opt to recover to the ledge after being launched by Dolphin Slash, I'd say this is a bigger advantage anyway; Marth's ledge trapping game is extremely good.

With simply using Dthrow, past around 90%, nothing is true, so the opponent should be simply jumping away anyway. Mixups or catching airdodges would be nice if you had a simply powerful aerial, like say, Ike's Bair or Mewtwo's Fair, but Marth has to space on top of this, so actually KO'ing off of this is still unlikely.

I feel like Marth's landing trap game is much more worth an extra 7%.

 

[Minordeth]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

I feel like grab conversions outweight the rest by quite a bit, for safety's sake. But still, obviously ZSS fits most of these as well. Rosa fits some of them, and flavor of the month Bowser (ironically?) also could be lumped into it.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Well, yeah.
Of course a top 3 character would only have trouble with other good characters.
Can't expect ya Zeldas and Palutenas to be able to deal with the Witch

True. Back to your original post, why did you propose MK? He only really fits half the qualities on your list, and most of them aren't the important ones if we were to weight the items on value

 

[FeelMeUp]

True. Back to your original post, why did you propose MK? He only really fits half the qualities on your list, and most of them aren't the important ones if we were to weight the items on value

Great throw conversions, can't mess with his recovery super easily, extremely good at air/platform camping Bayo, good grounded mobility, equal and sometimes better punish game, etc.
Does anyone know if MK's bair cleanly beats the disjoints on AbK and WT?

I feel like grab conversions outweight the rest by quite a bit, for safety's sake. But still, obviously ZSS fits most of these as well. Rosa fits some of them, and flavor of the month Bowser (ironically?) also could be lumped into it.

Could've sworn I had ZSS in here.
I wouldn't say Rosa, though, because she has the unique issue in that her neutral "goodness" largely seems like it's invalidated by Bullet Arts. Luma doesn't matter to Bayo at all, and Rosa's too exploitable in disadvantage for how early she dies.

 

[The-Technique]

Can't expect ya Zeldas and Palutenas to be able to deal with the Witch

Palutena vs Bayo is very doable, just sayin.

 

[Krysco]

Would just like to point out that custom moveset choices is a yellow topic and is therefore a totally fine topic to be had in this thread under the right circumstances. Those circumstances often being balancing by giving some lower tiered characters extra tools, providing more competition for the largely viable dlc characters who don't have access to any and the potential they have to easily buff Palutena and the Miis. I only bring this up because I've seen this song and dance at least 2 other times before with Pika discussion and Lucina vs Marth discussion. The former was some huge argument about uthrow rar thunder which I believe has been proven to be true by Esam (correct me if I'm wrong please) and with the latter, I can at least agree that discussion on the matter can only go so far without results which have slowly but surely been coming in from a Japanese player who's name I can't remember and Nairo the odd time he uses Lucina.

Unpleasant topics may be brought up time and again but I'd rather see a rare, potentially useful topic explored rather than abandoned simply because it's unpleasant. Provides more things that can be learned from this thread.

Anyways, I'll kindly drop the topic since it's hardly being discussed anymore, the idea was prompted that further discussion be moved to the custom thread or whatever it's called and honestly, I don't even recall what brought on the custom discussion so this particular spark of it being brought up didn't seem too important (although my memory could just be garbage).

More on topic, in regards to Zelda, I can see her being made viable either through patches or just another Smash game. I remember a discussion some time ago where someone asked what changed for Ness between Brawl and Sm4sh that made him go from unviable to viable and it turned out that not much was actually changed. We also see with Falco that all it takes is a few overpowered tools for a character to be top tier (a big part of why he's bad in this game compared to previous entries is his lack of autocancel lasers and Melee shine). Could also just do the cheap band-aid fix of giving her a true kill confirm off of a grab much like Robin, Bowser and DK have gotten.

As for Bayo, I've actually been keeping Mewtwo as at least a pocket to have a decent means of dealing with her. 13% off of fthrow plus whatever I can get off pummels. Uthrow and bthrow for killing and one of the best airdodges in the game. Large body and lightweight suck though and I'm working on Pika to try and cover the mu 'better'. Would be really nice if M2 + Pika or Marth + Pika ended up covering every mu to the point that there's only 1 or 2 negative mus to deal with since Wolf + Pika in Brawl made every mu even or higher save for Diddy.

 

[Rizen]

More on topic, in regards to Zelda, I can see her being made viable either through patches or just another Smash game.

Hope springs eternal.

About Din's fire, it's terrible. It causes freefalling and has no combo potential because Zelda is occupied by guiding it. It's very easy to simply shield or dodge, then Zelda has 23-25 frames of lag after release. It takes 33 frames minimum to attack and 14 frames after release for the hitbubbles to start. It might have some value in doubles and non-competitive play but for 1vs1s it's one of the worst projectiles in the game (besides Mii Gunner's stealth burst).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Great throw conversions, can't mess with his recovery super easily, extremely good at air/platform camping Bayo, good grounded mobility, equal and sometimes better punish game, etc.
Does anyone know if MK's bair cleanly beats the disjoints on AbK and WT?

Could've sworn I had ZSS in here.
I wouldn't say Rosa, though, because she has the unique issue in that her neutral "goodness" largely seems like it's invalidated by Bullet Arts. Luma doesn't matter to Bayo at all, and Rosa's too exploitable in disadvantage for how early she dies.

I can't really say much about ABK, but Witch Twist's horizontal range is actually not too great.
At least not when compared with its vertical reach.

 

[L9999]

More on topic, in regards to Zelda, I can see her being made viable either through patches or just another Smash game. I remember a discussion some time ago where someone asked what changed for Ness between Brawl and Sm4sh that made him go from unviable to viable and it turned out that not much was actually changed. We also see with Falco that all it takes is a few overpowered tools for a character to be top tier (a big part of why he's bad in this game compared to previous entries is his lack of autocancel lasers and Melee shine). Could also just do the cheap band-aid fix of giving her a true kill confirm off of a grab much like Robin, Bowser and DK have gotten.

I have played Smash 4 Ness since release and whenever I play Brawl he feels off. A lot was changed. No more grab release nonsense, Fair connects reliably, Back Air no longer hits at the front (sniff), Dair went from OK to complete garbage (sniff), slightly better run speed (yes, even if it still lame that helps), Yo-yos now properly scale in power at the expense of charge hitboxes (I can only imagine the terror of Ness Down Smash if it had a charge hitbox now that it scales correctly), PK Fire has more range and PSI Magnet is much more usable for mindgames (thanks patches). And PK Thunder, where to even begin? PKT ball no longer gets eaten at the starting frames (MASSIVE improvement), PKT travels much faster, and if Ness hits the wall he can use PKT again (although there is a stupid oversight on the left walls). Then the unintentional buffs were the removal of hitstun cancelling, no edegehogs, and rage. No hitstun cancelling make combos exists in general, particularly with Up Air and Down Throw, no edgehogs give Ness a chance of coming back period, and rage makes Back Throw way more deadly than Brawl and allows the rampant use of Uair now that it doesn't stale super hard. Seeing how Ness is doing right now just speaks how trash he was in Brawl.

Falco. Remember he got a redesign in Brawl, but lasers and Dair being insanely broken (also chaingrabs and DACUS) they overshadowed all the crap Falco had in his moveset (as we see today). Brawl Falco has 1 +4 MU, six +3 MUs, 8 +2 MUs, 10 +1s out of 37 characters. Not even Smash 4 Sheik has MUs this opressive, and Falco isn't even the best character in Brawl! Not only the greatest fall of grace in Smash IMO, but a testimony of what kind of game we move on from.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Brainstorming qualities that could make you have an even/winning matchup against Bayonetta:

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

They don't all need to be there, of course, but if you have more you'll have increased success in the MU. These characters don't all beat her or even go even, but they're the ones that seem worth thinking about.
This would mean the characters with a chance are , plus or minus a few.
Thoughts?

I'd add the PK kids to this list as well. They fit most of your criteria.
Grab confirms and kills grabs, all Ness wants is grabs so Witch Time often just puts Bayo in a bad spot

Ness doesn't necessarily win neutral but its not free for Bayo, she can't approach with heel slide as it's PK Fire bait/grab food and air approaches often trade in Ness' favor. I know Lucas can box her out with Zair and PK Fire but I don't use a lot of Lucas so yeah.

They both have a great punish game

Ness has a exploitable recovery but every character in the game even Little Mac can exploit it so it's not a MU thing. Lucas has tether and can go really deep before PKT2 so it's not as bad for him

Not so much Lucas but Ness has great OOS options in Nair, up smash and grab. Nair helps relieve a lot of shield pressure

They both aren't that mobile

Ness is one of the few characters who can apply offstage pressure on Bayo as she flies around with her massive hitboxes with PK Thunder and PK Fire. Ness should always be getting a additional 8-15% as Bayo makes her way back to the ledge. (as your probably not going to tail gimp her too often)

I'm one of those few people who've always thought Ness and Lucas did well against Bayo if Bayo wins these MUs it's very very slightly but I think it's even.

 

[TDK]

• Grab kill confirm and/or throw conversions that work at all reasonable percents
• Better neutral than hers
• Comparable or better punish game than hers
• Recovery that can't be messed with/doesn't have a big risk of random death
• Decent to good out of shield options
• Decent to good mobility
• Good projectile option(s)

Green = Yes, Yellow = Debatable, Red = No

has three of these for sure, and potentially an additional two. Link's neutral vs Bayo's neutral is debatable, though Link's sword and projectiles can do a good job of Keeping Bayo out. Link's recovery, while obviously not amazing, is actually fairly difficult to mess with between tether, jump + up B, Bomb moving you and giving you the second up-b (And Link's bombs have a short enough fuse to where this is feasible), and lots of dangerous hitboxes that can stage spike Bayo which are also disjointed, it can be harder than you think for Link to get back onto the stage.

Not saying it's even personally (I think it's -1 at worst), but it's not a blowout by any means, despite what people would have you think. Remember that Link's projectiles are as good or better than Toon Link's, too

 

[Rizen]

Green = Yes, Yellow = Debatable, Red = No

has three of these for sure, and potentially an additional two. Link's neutral vs Bayo's neutral is debatable, though Link's sword and projectiles can do a good job of Keeping Bayo out. Link's recovery, while obviously not amazing, is actually fairly difficult to mess with between tether, jump + up B, Bomb moving you and giving you the second up-b (And Link's bombs have a short enough fuse to where this is feasible), and lots of dangerous hitboxes that can stage spike Bayo which are also disjointed, it can be harder than you think for Link to get back onto the stage.

Not saying it's even personally (I think it's -1 at worst), but it's not a blowout by any means, despite what people would have you think. Remember that Link's projectiles are as good or better than Toon Link's, too

These are true but Bayo has a much better risk/reward ratio. If Bayo's offstage, she can get back. If Link's offstage he will be gimped if he doesn't play the right card. If Link guesses wrong he has a lot of commitment. If Bayo guesses wrong she has a stupidly good disadvantage state. While I think Link barely wins neutral, Bayo has such little risk and huge reward that the MU is bad for Link. Bayo can also space Link pretty well with her long legs and monkey feet guns.

IMO it's -1.5 for Link at best. -2 isn't unreasonable but seems harsh.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What are Link's "Decent to good OOS options" against Bayonetta?

 

[ARGHETH]

Up B, I'm assuming.