Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

Sheesh, this thread makes it sound like the super heavyweights can't do anything to save them, competitive or not, doubles or not.

Yes, their whole "big, strong, slow, and powerful" niche doesn't work in a game like Smash where everyone else turns them into combo food, but it's not like they're the worst characters. If anything, "stupidly light, extremely weak, and way too easy to kill" is the worst niche (I'm looking at you, ).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Superheavies aren't that bad in this game.
They just happen to be garbage in doubles.
Which is okay. Not every character can be good in every type of game mode.
Leave that to Sheik/Mario/Cloud.

 

[The-Technique]

Would Lucario + Lucas be considered the best gimmick team in doubles?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Superheavies aren't that bad in this game.
They just happen to be garbage in doubles.
Which is okay. Not every character can be good in every type of game mode.

I'd like to unpack this for a while, but I'll just go ahead and be simple about it.

There are 5 characters that are commonly referred to as superheavies. These are, and sometimes people will throw in the mix too because weird weight/damage/hitbox mechanics.

Of them, only and are even arguably "not that bad", (even then, you'll get plenty of people in this topic who are willing to argue the opposite about one or the other) and they very specifically had to be buffed into being "not that bad". The rest? Not even arguable.

Like, you might have a point worth arguing if Shiek or Diddy or some such were hard garbage in doubles, but as it is, you're wrong and superheavies being bad in doubles too just means they're **** designs that don't work in this game and never have in this series, and that somebody seriously needs to go back to the drawing board on the lot of them.

 

[Rizen]

Do "gimmick" or teams that use a character's bucket/absorption moves work since the patch nerfed them when used on your teammate?

The closest high tier counterpart has is imo. They're both defensive zoners with similar spacing. Link's pretty unique so you have to stretch some.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'd like to unpack this for a while, but I'll just go ahead and be simple about it.

There are 5 characters that are commonly referred to as superheavies. These are, and sometimes people will throw in the mix too because weird weight/damage/hitbox mechanics.

Of them, only and are even arguably "not that bad", (even then, you'll get plenty of people in this topic who are willing to argue the opposite about one or the other) and they very specifically had to be buffed into being "not that bad". The rest? Not even arguable.

Like, you might have a point worth arguing if Shiek or Diddy or some such were hard garbage in doubles, but as it is, you're wrong and superheavies being bad in doubles too just means they're **** designs that don't work in this game and never have in this series, and that somebody seriously needs to go back to the drawing board on the lot of them.

Alright.
So you're arguing that are comparatively worse than and ?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And that just triggered me, everyone agrees that zard isn't the low tier garbage everyone says he is. You're lumping characters together...plus you don't main them (admittedly I do main them but only in FG because no local tourney scene on my end).

 

[FeelMeUp]

Do you disagree that of the 5 superheavies, Zard is not at the bottom 3?
He is clearly not at the level of DK or Bowser, so I'm not really seeing an issue here.

 

[Game7a1]

Do "gimmick" or teams that use a character's bucket/absorption moves work since the patch nerfed them when used on your teammate?

The closest high tier counterpart has is imo. They're both defensive zoners with similar spacing. Link's pretty unique so you have to stretch some.

The only noteworthy absorb team that works after the patch is Ness/Lucas + Lucario (Mii Gunner + Lucario also is an option if she's allowed to use her third Down B move). G&W and Villager don't get much from High Aura Aura Sphere or Force Palm from their teammate.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Do you disagree that of the 5 superheavies, Zard is not at the bottom 3?
He is clearly not at the level of DK or Bowser, so I'm not really seeing an issue here.

I'm not arguing where he stands as far as superheavies go however he's not as terrible as a CHARACTER among the rest of the cast. That's not it. From the sound of things he should be placed at the bottom of the tier list or at least that's what's being implied.

 

[|RK|]

Superheavies aren't that bad in this game.
They just happen to be garbage in doubles.
Which is okay. Not every character can be good in every type of game mode.
Leave that to Sheik/Mario/Cloud.

I'm actually really curious as to how they're garbage in doubles.

 

[TDK]

And that just triggered me, everyone agrees that zard isn't the low tier garbage everyone says he is.

Tell me what Zard has to offer that Bowser and DK can't do much better.

That alone hurts Zard, and then you add on his flaws as a character and he comes up as a failure in most areas. His awful advantage state is already a huge problem for it, and his neutral and disadvantage aren't anything to write home about.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'm actually really curious as to how they're garbage in doubles.

Team combos sorta invalidate their main draw; being grapplers. In doubles characters with extremely good low lag normals and solid combo throws(literally every Sheik throw, Cloud bthrow, Mario bthrow, almost every Diddy throw, etc) reign supreme. Handoffs are more important than being able to do your own throw combo, because you're most likely going to be interrupted OR will be doing subpar damage compared to what you'll be doing with a teammate.
Fatties also get team combo'd and ledgetrapped like no other, being absolutely destroyed in disadvantage by the most popular characters. In Cloud Mario, for example, DK and Bowser can be juggled almost infinitely and killed by a handoff/win condition(Limit CS/FT, Cloud Uair, Mario Dair, Cloud USmash) at absurdly early percents.

So not only do they lose their amazing grappler status but they also have the worst disadvantage states in the game for doubles, the biggest bodies, mostly poor normals, bad advantage extension tools, and a myriad of other issues.
No real reason to be playing a fatty in doubles unless you're either:
A. Trying to cheese someone with a gimmick or something silly
B. Not really playing to win

 

[Krysco]

The closest high tier counterpart has is imo. They're both defensive zoners with similar spacing. Link's pretty unique so you have to stretch some.

A character not named Toon Link brought up as a high tier counterpart to Link. I mean, I get the similarites you're drawing between M2 and Link but I just find it funny since Tink is literally his high tier clone.

 

[Rizen]

I think in Smash 4 we need to look at the metagame as more fluid than previous titles. The balance has left some characters superior to others but many near each other are equal but different. I think this applies to the 4th-10th best characters (after ) and applies within each tier.
Is better than ? Well is LordMix or DKWill active? It can shift around. Is better than ? Absolutely. I see the future with unordered tiers. We can't make lasting placements that are too specific.




^Edit Krysco , and play very differently and people need to stop making this superficial comparison. Aside from Bomb combos their zoning and tactics are very different. Link's more footsies/grappler and TL is more true zoning/comboer.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Alright.
So you're arguing that are comparatively worse than and ?

No, I'm ignoring them. Saying that 4 is better balanced than Melee is a truism. Saying that it is better balanced than the utter ****show that was competitive Brawl is so obvious that the need to mention it verges on the moronic.

What I am saying is that "not every character can be good in every type of game mode" only works if a character is good in any type of game mode.

 

[|RK|]

Team combos sorta invalidate their main draw; being grapplers. In doubles characters with extremely good low lag normals and solid combo throws(literally every Sheik throw, Cloud bthrow, Mario bthrow, almost every Diddy throw, etc) reign supreme. Handoffs are more important than being able to do your own throw combo, because you're most likely going to be interrupted OR will be doing subpar damage compared to what you'll be doing with a teammate.
Fatties also get team combo'd and ledgetrapped like no other, being absolutely destroyed in disadvantage by the most popular characters. In Cloud Mario, for example, DK and Bowser can be juggled almost infinitely and killed by a handoff/win condition(Limit CS/FT, Cloud Uair, Mario Dair, Cloud USmash) at absurdly early percents.

So not only do they lose their amazing grappler status but they also have the worst disadvantage states in the game for doubles, the biggest bodies, mostly poor normals, bad advantage extension tools, and a myriad of other issues.
No real reason to be playing a fatty in doubles unless you're either:
A. Trying to cheese someone with a gimmick or something silly
B. Not really playing to win

Isn't this assuming that you're doing a team of all heavies? I was thinking of something along the lines of Sheik/Bowser or something. Sheik can still handoff (and it will be devestating at lower-than-usual percents), Bowser can kill on his own very quickly, and Sheik can help protect Bowser from getting gimped. Plus Sheik can show up to protect Bowser from extended disadvantage, while Bowser tanks hits and stocks. And of course, Sheik is more than capable of keeping one opponent in disadvantage while Bowser gets his own throw combos off.

 

[FeelMeUp]

No, I'm ignoring them. Saying that 4 is better balanced than Melee is a truism. Saying that it is better balanced than the utter ****show that was competitive Brawl is so obvious that the need to mention it verges on the moronic.

What I am saying is that "not every character can be good in every type of game mode" only works if a character is good in any type of game mode.

Did you...misunderstand?
DK and Bowser are two of the most poorly designed characters in this game. Doesn't make them not perform as solid characters in singles. They just suck at some other other gamemodes. Cloud/Mario/Sheik are good in pretty much every gamemode I can think of. Stamina, doubles, crews, triples, etc.
Not sure what you're trying to debate.

Isn't this assuming that you're doing a team of all heavies? I was thinking of something along the lines of Sheik/Bowser or something. Sheik can still handoff (and it will be devestating at lower-than-usual percents), Bowser can kill on his own very quickly, and Sheik can help protect Bowser from getting gimped. Plus Sheik can show up to protect Bowser from extended disadvantage, while Bowser tanks hits and stocks. And of course, Sheik is more than capable of keeping one opponent in disadvantage while Bowser gets his own throw combos off.

Not really, because superheavies are often too slow to utilize a lot of these team combos without increasing risk to dangerous levels.
The question you should asking is....what's the point? They just drag you down.
Why keep helping a survive being gimped and laddered by a ZSS Mario team when you can just grab a and not need to worry about that as much....while also getting the benefits of the monkey being a far better characters?
Why hand off to the f6-8 jumpsquat and f8-11 aerial when you could just as easily do it with the faster, less laggy, and less exploitable ?
Why try and put yourself at risk with comboing off a throw from either of them when you could easily grab the "followup for free" instead?
There's nothing superheavies can do in doubles that isn't easily replicated or replaced by another good character....with much less risk. So there's no point.
Superheavies in doubles are just plain bad. They lose the unique reliability of rage "i kill you at dumb early %s" and high damage off one grab from singles, so there's not much reason to use them.

 

[my_T]

I'd like to unpack this for a while, but I'll just go ahead and be simple about it.

There are 5 characters that are commonly referred to as superheavies. These are, and sometimes people will throw in the mix too because weird weight/damage/hitbox mechanics.

Of them, only and are even arguably "not that bad", (even then, you'll get plenty of people in this topic who are willing to argue the opposite about one or the other) and they very specifically had to be buffed into being "not that bad". The rest? Not even arguable.

Like, you might have a point worth arguing if Shiek or Diddy or some such were hard garbage in doubles, but as it is, you're wrong and superheavies being bad in doubles too just means they're **** designs that don't work in this game and never have in this series, and that somebody seriously needs to go back to the drawing board on the lot of them.

I agree with this. It's not just a Smash thing either. Alex and Zangief in SFV fit this mold as well and it just doesn't work. I don't know of any fighting game where this design has ever worked

They're like those giant bosses in a lot of adventure games. They hit hard as **** but are usually so slow and predictable that you rarely if ever get hit once you've memorized all they're options.

 

[Krysco]

^Edit Krysco , and play very differently and people need to stop making this superficial comparison. Aside from Bomb combos their zoning and tactics are very different. Link's more footsies/grappler and TL is more true zoning/comboer.

I'm not too informed about either character though from my inexperienced viewpoint, I somewhat fail to see how their zoning is too terribly different. Their boomerangs cover the same 3 angles, arrows go further for Tink but are faster for Link so there's that difference and they've both got zair though Link's goes further and I can imagine it's a faster option to recover from since Tink jumps higher. Tink altogether does have higher mobility to continue his zoning though.

Tactics I can easily see being different since Tink has the speed to run away and lacks the range of Link's Master Sword to be able to outrange opponents at CQC. The grappler bit I can see on Link thanks to his dthrow and Tink lacking a throw like that.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to say your comparison was wrong, just that I find it amusing that M2, a character that's faster than Tink, lighter than Tink, taller than Link and has fewer projectiles than both is deemed more similar than a character with a good portion of his moveset copy and pasted function-wise with tweaks applied.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with the arguement that our 'Zard's weaknesses are being exaggerated. I'd say he's better than Ganondorf and King Dedede.

Team combos sorta invalidate their main draw; being grapplers.

Speaking of, does the penguin king really count as a grappler? He doesn't have the chain throws had and I don't know if his throws and command grab set up combos.

 

[|RK|]

Did you...misunderstand?
DK and Bowser are two of the most poorly designed characters in this game. Doesn't make them not perform as solid characters in singles. They just suck at some other other gamemodes. Cloud/Mario/Sheik are good in pretty much every gamemode I can think of. Stamina, doubles, crews, triples, etc.
Not sure what you're trying to debate.


Not really, because superheavies are often too slow to utilize a lot of these team combos without increasing risk to dangerous levels.
The question you should asking is....what's the point? They just drag you down.
Why keep helping a survive being gimped and laddered by a ZSS Mario team when you can just grab a and not need to worry about that as much....while also getting the benefits of the monkey being a far better characters?
Why hand off to the f6-8 jumpsquat and f8-11 aerial when you could just as easily do it with the faster, less laggy, and less exploitable ?
Why try and put yourself at risk with comboing off a throw from either of them when you could easily grab the "followup for free" instead?
There's nothing superheavies can do in doubles that isn't easily replicated or replaced by another good character....with much less risk. So there's no point.
Superheavies in doubles are just plain bad. They lose the unique reliability of rage "i kill you at dumb early %s" and high damage off one grab from singles, so there's not much reason to use them.

If you replace Mario with, say, Diddy in the first team, you could easily say the same things about Cloud. But Cloud getting saved from a gimp is pretty much a staple of doubles at this point. One of the many reasons he remains so good is the ability for teammates to hand off into powerful finishing moves (a quality he shares with superheavies). More importantly, as you noted earlier - long setups don't work as well in doubles. So the likelihood of DK getting laddered to the point that he dies with a faster teammate around is low.

As for the second point - the reason you'd hand off to Bowser over Cloud is because he'd end the stock earlier without gimping himself (by using limit) as a result.

Finally, rage will always remain relevant in doubles as long as the setups are good. I can see and understand your points, but I'm still not getting how superheavies are bad in doubles. They're arguably not the literal best choices, but bad? I don't see that. I imagine we may eventually see how that goes if Zairo decides to do Diddy/Bowser, and finally get an answer... but I can't see such a team being anything but powerful.

 

[Rizen]

I'm not too informed about either character though from my inexperienced viewpoint, I somewhat fail to see how their zoning is too terribly different. Their boomerangs cover the same 3 angles, arrows go further for Tink but are faster for Link so there's that difference and they've both got zair though Link's goes further and I can imagine it's a faster option to recover from since Tink jumps higher. Tink altogether does have higher mobility to continue his zoning though.

Tactics I can easily see being different since Tink has the speed to run away and lacks the range of Link's Master Sword to be able to outrange opponents at CQC. The grappler bit I can see on Link thanks to his dthrow and Tink lacking a throw like that.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to say your comparison was wrong, just that I find it amusing that M2, a character that's faster than Tink, lighter than Tink, taller than Link and has fewer projectiles than both is deemed more similar than a character with a good portion of his moveset copy and pasted function-wise with tweaks applied.

A lot of Link's differences from TL relate to their physics. Mewtwo is light but falls a closer speed to Link (Link 1.6, Mewtwo 1.5, TL 1.28). Mewtwo and Link can both land relatively safely with Fair and combo from Nair without too much landing lag. They play a similar SH aerial game whereas TL plays from more distance. M2's shadow ball game when charging or throwing small balls is spaced like Link's projectiles in the sense that you want to be safe and often drifting back but keep at them. TL's non-bomb projectiles are slower moving stage control and M2/Link's are used quickly in a mid range zoning/footsies style. Watch Abandago charge shadowball on BF while spacing. M2's reach is similar to Link's with his Dtilt tail. Dtilt combos of M2's work similarly to Link's Bomb>Fair or Dthrow>Nair in terms of spacing. There are differences but for me at least M2's gameplay feel closer than Link than any other character.

Then again maybe I'm just bad with TL lol.

 

[TDK]

I'm not too informed about either character though from my inexperienced viewpoint, I somewhat fail to see how their zoning is too terribly different. Their boomerangs cover the same 3 angles, arrows go further for Tink but are faster for Link so there's that difference and they've both got zair though Link's goes further and I can imagine it's a faster option to recover from since Tink jumps higher. Tink altogether does have higher mobility to continue his zoning though.

Bombs.

Link's Bombs take 17 frames to come out with a FAF of 40, explode in about 220 frames, and have a BKG/KBG of 40/90. Toon Link's Bombs take 17 frames to come out with a FAF of 40, explode in about 290 frames, and have a BKB/KBG of 40/80.

I'm not gonna elaborate yet on what that does but Link's are objectively a direct upgrade in every way. They also happen to be the Links' most important projectile.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If you replace Mario with, say, Diddy in the first team, you could easily say the same things about Cloud. But Cloud getting saved from a gimp is pretty much a staple of doubles at this point

The difference is that Cloud has the most polarizing doubles win condition in the game. No other single character has something that gamechanging. Certainly not the fatties. You get all his ridiculously good handoff throws, amazing edgeguarding potential, great lasting hitboxes FOR handoffs, a virtually godlike kill move Smash attack for handoffs, excellent 2v1 potential, great ledgetrapping.....and Limit on top of it. Fatties just have the handoffs and a bunch of extra negatives.

More importantly, as you noted earlier - long setups don't work as well in doubles. So the likelihood of DK getting laddered to the point that he dies with a faster teammate around is low.

Double Uair Up B isn't at all long considering the teammate will most likely be fighting someone else. Even Bayo stuff is pretty short. There's the extra issue a lot of characters have of not being able to reach up that high in order to save you in time. The only "ladder" that should almost never be working in team play is +3 hit Uair MK combos. The rest with and whoever else are all fair game.

As for the second point - the reason you'd hand off to Bowser over Cloud is because he'd end the stock earlier without gimping himself (by using limit) as a result.

Well, like I said. It's harder for Bowser to break away from the chaos and actually get up there in order to seal that 85% stock. There's less variance with your Cloud partner to fresh Uair someone off the top at 120% or simply get his 90-100% Usmash off your throw.

 

[Routa]

It took 2 years to you guys to start talking about doubles format.
Aaaaaaaanyways...
Doubles is very interesting format. In doubles even the slower characters are good in a way due to mobility not being that important mainly 'cause of more action on stage. Basically character with poor neutral are better in doubles than they are in singles format. For example Brawler (I will use him as example due to being more familiar with the character) is far better in doubles. Why? He has one of the most broken moves in game which he can use as a follow up (Piston Punch), he is quick and has quick moves that canbe used to save a friend, is heavy and has fast recovery. Thous are the reasons why he is one of the better doubles partners in game, but why is he better in doubles than singles? He doesn't need to worry about neutral and recovery. This "technically" removes 2 of his major flaws. Ofc it really doesn't remove his flaws, but make them less exploitable.

If only I was better at explaining my thoughts, but at least I tried...

 

[RonNewcomb]

A lot of Link's differences from TL relate to their physics. Mewtwo is light but falls a closer speed to Link (Link 1.6, Mewtwo 1.5, TL 1.28). Mewtwo and Link can both land relatively safely with Fair and combo from Nair without too much landing lag. They play a similar SH aerial game whereas TL plays from more distance. M2's shadow ball game when charging or throwing small balls is spaced like Link's projectiles in the sense that you want to be safe and often drifting back but keep at them. TL's non-bomb projectiles are slower moving stage control and M2/Link's are used quickly in a mid range zoning/footsies style. Watch Abandago charge shadowball on BF while spacing. M2's reach is similar to Link's with his Dtilt tail. Dtilt combos of M2's work similarly to Link's Bomb>Fair or Dthrow>Nair in terms of spacing. There are differences but for me at least M2's gameplay feel closer than Link than any other character.

Then again maybe I'm just bad with TL lol.

I believe it. If for no other reason than the character most like is .

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

It took 2 years to you guys to start talking about doubles format.
Aaaaaaaanyways...
Doubles is very interesting format. In doubles even the slower characters are good in a way due to mobility not being that important mainly 'cause of more action on stage. Basically character with poor neutral are better in doubles than they are in singles format. For example Brawler (I will use him as example due to being more familiar with the character) is far better in doubles. Why? He has one of the most broken moves in game which he can use as a follow up (Piston Punch), he is quick and has quick moves that canbe used to save a friend, is heavy and has fast recovery. Thous are the reasons why he is one of the better doubles partners in game, but why is he better in doubles than singles? He doesn't need to worry about neutral and recovery. This "technically" removes 2 of his major flaws. Ofc it really doesn't remove his flaws, but make them less exploitable.

If only I was better at explaining my thoughts, but at least I tried...

No it made perfect sense and it's true it's easier to mask certain character flaws in doubles that are more prevalent in singles like bad neutral or mobility issues. It's just the nature of the game mode with all the action going on. A lot of characters get bumps in viability in doubles especially low tier characters with great kill options moves or options like Mii Fighter as you said is probably really good with your teammate tossing foes into that absurd Up B of his.

Another bad character I think does well as a teammate is . I play with a Puff in doubles often (friendlies only but still) and a support focused Puff is great. She can carry foes to the blast zone as you toss them off stage, she can save you from very far off stage and get back herself easily, obviously it's easier for her to get hits in with you helping her playing the aggressor role and of course she has Rest that she can throw out relatively safely if you hit her out of her slumber.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Would Lucario + Lucas be considered the best gimmick team in doubles?

j

I would not say the best, but it certainly has become popular to an extent while some players have borrowed the playstyle to help them.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

I agree with the arguement that our 'Zard's weaknesses are being exaggerated. I'd say he's better than Ganondorf and King Dedede.


Speaking of, does the penguin king really count as a grappler? He doesn't have the chain throws had and I don't know if his throws and command grab set up combos.

He's not a grappler per se, but he has a solid grab game at lower percents. D-throw > bair does a reliable 22% and combos for quite some time, and d-throw > uair combos after that, though it's susceptible to DI. D-throw > short hop up-tilt gordo is a potential air dodge read that further combos into fair for a whopping 40%. On top of that, D3's grabs are suprisingly decent for a character who ordinarily has such ****ty everything.

The biggest things holding back his grab game are terrible ground mobility, which limits the effectiveness of his otherwise decent dash grab, and that DI starts to ruin his combos at medium percents, which limits D3 to only using throws for stage control and gordo set-ups.

 

[The-Technique]

j

I would not say the best, but it certainly has become popular to an extent while some players have borrowed the playstyle to help them.

Hmm, I see. I only mention it because of how Taiheita and Gomamugitya managed to eliminate Zero and Nairo (double Cloud) in Grand Finals, at Smash Con.

 

[Nu~]

My Christmas present to you all ◥θ┴θ◤. Here is my Greninja Match-up chart for December 2016. Disclaimer *my opinion!* pic.twitter.com/tm6Nctbg1S

— 𝕚𝕊𝕥𝕦𝕕𝕪𝕚𝕟𝕘 (@iStudying) December 26, 2016

I know you people hate this but...this is honestly pretty interesting.

Top Greninja main who believes that Greninja has the matchup chart of a mid tier.

 

[verbatim]

If you guys had to make a top 5 based on how strong a character is overall in a Crew Battle/Doubles, what would it look like?

I'm going to tweak this a bit and talk about characters that shift pretty far in usability from singles to doubles. Mario/Cloud being better is pretty universally acknowledged so I'm not going to talk about that much.

This list isn't all inclusive, and mainly stems from personal experience.


Top tier that become worst (slight).
,: Benefit a lot from being able to play campier in singles, have to play more of a supporting/setup role in doubles. This also applies to Pikachu and a few low tier zoner characters (DHD, 1111 Gunner)
,: Their different weaknesses (getting rid of Luma, M2's early deaths) are more easily exploited in a 2v2 environment.


bottom --> High tier

: Teammate grabs someone, Jigglypuff rests, teammate jabs Jigglypuff to wake them up. She can also secure quick edgeguard kills if someone messes up at low%. Her teammate can force people out of shield and into her strings. MK also benefits greatly from teammates setting up for him and can secure quick edgeguards.

mid/high --> top
: very good on stage, a supporting teammate can throw people to him and help him recover.
/: All of their throws that can't combo in singles are really good at setting up for a partner's followup (especially ladder kills off the top). They can also exert a lot of stage control.
: Great at stock tanking and extorting horizontal pressure. Teammates can make up for their bad grab.



Heavies (+Mac) in general get better because teammates can get them out of juggle or edgeguard situations, but that doesn't necessarily make them amazing. They all need a fast character (usually Cloud/Sheik/Mario/Fox/Diddy Kong) to help them out of bad situations.


Low --> not Low
: Stock tanks, creates chaos, sets up for partners/covers their recovery.

 

[Y2Kay]

My Christmas present to you all ◥θ┴θ◤. Here is my Greninja Match-up chart for December 2016. Disclaimer *my opinion!* pic.twitter.com/tm6Nctbg1S

— 𝕚𝕊𝕥𝕦𝕕𝕪𝕚𝕟𝕘 (@iStudying) December 26, 2016

I know you people hate this but...this is honestly pretty interesting.

Top Greninja main who believes that Greninja has the matchup chart of a mid tier.

You can tell this heavily based on personal experience. Gren losing to Ryu but beating Pikachu is pretty mindboggling, to say the least.

I guess this a decent start, but I have quarrels with several things on this chart . . . .

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Would Lucario + Lucas be considered the best gimmick team in doubles?

Is it a gimmick if it works consistently and takes 4+ years to become good with it?

 

[The-Technique]

Is it a gimmick if it works consistently and takes 4+ years to become good with it?

I suppose not, but I figured it would fall under a "gimmick" team, considering Cloud + Sheik/Mario (or another Cloud) is perceived as the best doubles pair.

 

[NairWizard]

Is it a gimmick if it works consistently and takes 4+ years to become good with it?

Yes.

From Merriam Webster:

"a : an important feature that is not immediately apparent"

"b : an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle"

"c : a trick or device used to attract business or attention <a marketing gimmick>"

Technically it's a gimmick either way

 

[bc1910]

My bitesize opinions on the superheavies:

Superheavies in general are the most viable they've been in the history of Smash but still overall the worst class of character.
is the only superheavy who is genuinely a pretty good character.
is kind of horrible, but saved by the best throw confirm in the game and a couple of other half-decent tools. Both Bowser and DK have some use at high level.
is a better character than DK overall, but still has less value due to lack of a broken throw combo. He will end up being regarded better than DK in the long run if people continue to work on avoiding the grab at Ding Dong percents.
is, for all intents and purposes, trash, but don't get complacent. He still has great kill power and some of the best killing aerials in the game. Don't let him surprise you.
is trash who exists purely to be fat and nigh-unbeatable in online lag.

My Christmas present to you all ◥θ┴θ◤. Here is my Greninja Match-up chart for December 2016. Disclaimer *my opinion!* pic.twitter.com/tm6Nctbg1S

— 𝕚𝕊𝕥𝕦𝕕𝕪𝕚𝕟𝕘 (@iStudying) December 26, 2016

I know you people hate this but...this is honestly pretty interesting.

Top Greninja main who believes that Greninja has the matchup chart of a mid tier.

Not sure what to make of this. General structure is pretty good but I disagree with several placements.

Greninja does not beat ROB or Toon Link. ROB in particular has knocked him out of bracket several times. 50:50 at best for both, maybe worse.

I don't see how Greninja loses to Corrin, Ryu or Lucario. However, he probably loses to Rosa and Diddy so their absence is irksome. Would have liked to see some consideration of a loss to Ness as well, judging by results.

I've started to think Sheik is 35:65 recently. Greninja's record against (good) Sheiks in tournament is still abysmal and she still feels suffocating to play against, moreso than Sonic. Either way, she shouldn't be in the same group as Cloud and Bayo.

 

[NairWizard]

's design utterly baffles me. He's meant to be a slow hard-read kind of character whose entire kit kills (so at death %, if you get hit by Ganon's almost anything, you die), yet, he has an abysmally bad grab with even worse grab reward, so he autoloses to shield. How does that make sense? If you're going to make a character who is so slow that he has to hard read you or else he can't win, you need to give him a way to coerce you out of shield. Ganon doesn't have that. Even if he tomahawks you and reads your shield and gets a grab you're okay because being grabbed by Ganon really doesn't matter. Thus patient shielding wrecks Ganon every day all day. That's the only reason he sucks. With Bowser-tier grab reward he'd be top tier, I have no doubt about that.

 

[Sev3n]

I'm not too informed about either character though from my inexperienced viewpoint, I somewhat fail to see how their zoning is too terribly different. Their boomerangs cover the same 3 angles, arrows go further for Tink but are faster for Link so there's that difference and they've both got zair though Link's goes further and I can imagine it's a faster option to recover from since Tink jumps higher. Tink altogether does have higher mobility to continue his zoning though.

Tactics I can easily see being different since Tink has the speed to run away and lacks the range of Link's Master Sword to be able to outrange opponents at CQC. The grappler bit I can see on Link thanks to his dthrow and Tink lacking a throw like that.

Mind you, I wasn't trying to say your comparison was wrong, just that I find it amusing that M2, a character that's faster than Tink, lighter than Tink, taller than Link and has fewer projectiles than both is deemed more similar than a character with a good portion of his moveset copy and pasted function-wise with tweaks applied.

As you said, because Tink has the ability to run away but a closer range on his normals, he is rewarded more to play a more campy, punish oriented style from afar. Link, with his superior sword range, plays a more midrange style, ideally weaving in and out of a very specific zone, but absolutely CANNOT play campy because he just isn't fast enough to follow up from full screen off a random boomerang or bomb. Their frame data is very comparable as well, but Link just has a better range in neutral in exchange for runspeed, meaning he has to play at a closer range. That's how their zoning is different. Link uses his projectiles for different reasons, covering/limiting options and trapping, where Tink, while he does a little of that, is mainly looking for one to hit for a followup while playing mostly safe. Instead of "copy and pasted function-wise," I think it would be more apt to say "animation-wise," because their kit is actually very different and their moves are used for very different reasons throughout the course of a game, honestly.

Not that I agree terribly with the Mewtwo comparison, but as Rizen pointed out, Link is fairly unique in design. I think Marth is probably a little closer of a comparison to a Link, but without projectiles. They both sort of want to play at that midrange, not too close but not far enough that you can't follow up.

Also, a minor nitpick, Boomerang has 5 angles. Also as someone pointed out above, Link's bombs are basically strictly better than Tink's.