Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

Hasn't Falco been said to have a good Bayo matchup or am I mistaken?

 

[Nu~]

Fruit that can't be picked up by the opponent or beat out by attacks :^). Every fruit now deals massive sheild damage. For example, Key is instant sheild break

 

[Mr. Johan]

Elwind now operates on a float mechanic like Peach, as seen in the Robin trailer. Every second in the air equates to one use of Elwind gone, for a maximum of 18 seconds of float per tome.

Have fun with Fair, Uair, and Bair walls guys.

 

[Ethan7]

A lot of the characters ZeRo put in mid tier aren't even really mid tier. Dr. Mario, the highest ranked character in that tier, is still ranked below average (34th out of 58).

 

[Pazzo.]

Brawl bair, Gordos do x2 damage and can't be reflected.

But he's already perfect, so whatever.

A lot of the characters ZeRo put in mid tier aren't even really mid tier. Dr. Mario, the highest ranked character in that tier, is still ranked below average (34th out of 58).

He must have a High + or something like what.

Or a god tier for pre-patch Bayonetta.

 

[Ethan7]

He must have a High + or something like what.

Even if he made a high-mid tier the lower ranked characters would still be ranked below average. A character in high-mid tier shouldn't be ranked lower than more character they are higher then.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Okay so instead of talking of unrealistic buffs that will never happen & shouldn't happen, how about we start character discussion for a change, huh? Sounds Good? Okay, so let's start:
So, i've been wondering for a bit, what are the thoughts of people nowadays about ?
Wii Fit Trainer in my eyes remains a character with a fair amount of tools to zone effectively, and most notably evasively. WFT's whole moveset, mobility, offstage dominance seems to lean towards this, but at the same time, WFT's somewhat awkward starter and rather poor CQC & upclose game discourages any other kind of playstyle, which may be an issue. That's where i strongly believe that WFT players can improve & optimize, especially when the rest of their moveset is frustrating & may allow them to condition them into poor choices of moves effectively. See, WFT's advantage state is kind of weird overall but it is very strong: the insane damage output the character is capable of in only a few hits is quite something. As mentionned before, there's also the fact that Wii Fit completely dominates offstage with very handy traps & the reach of WFT's offstage punish with Header.
So yeah, this character has dropped from its early spot we've seen from EVO 2015 to Genesis 3, but WFT's definitly not an hopeless character, that has more to improve than your average character, at least in my eyes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Okay so instead of talking of unrealistic buffs that will never happen & shouldn't happen, how about we start character discussion for a change, huh? Sounds Good? Okay, so let's start:

That happened because I wanted to post a challenge in a social thread but accidentally posted it here

 

[Rizen]

Question: based on the current tier list, who would you put above to raise his position?

I'd stick Zard between B Jr and WFT.

 

[Mr. Johan]

If there was any legitimate change I would make, it would be a nerf.

Nerf Diddy's banana so that it trips only when it comes into contact with a character on the ground floor. If the banana hits someone anywhere else, aka when its thrown, it has as much hitstun as a long range Mega Man pellet.

Diddy can be good on offense. Just don't let his defense be just as potent.

 

[Nu~]

Okay so instead of talking of unrealistic buffs that will never happen & shouldn't happen, how about we start character discussion for a change, huh? Sounds Good? Okay, so let's start:
So, i've been wondering for a bit, what are the thoughts of people nowadays about ?
Wii Fit Trainer in my eyes remains a character with a fair amount of tools to zone effectively, and most notably evasively. WFT's whole moveset, mobility, offstage dominance seems to lean towards this, but at the same time, WFT's somewhat awkward starter and rather poor CQC & upclose game discourages any other kind of playstyle, which may be an issue. That's where i strongly believe that WFT players can improve & optimize, especially when the rest of their moveset is frustrating & may allow them to condition them into poor choices of moves effectively. See, WFT's advantage state is kind of weird overall but it is very strong: the insane damage output the character is capable of in only a few hits is quite something. As mentionned before, there's also the fact that Wii Fit completely dominates offstage with very handy traps & the reach of WFT's offstage punish with Header.
So yeah, this character has dropped from its early spot we've seen from EVO 2015 to Genesis 3, but WFT's definitly not an hopeless character, that has more to improve than your average character, at least in my eyes.

I'm of the opinion that Wii Fit's unique hitboxes in CQC are actually what make her a beast in footsies.
It's a matter of being able to put all of those awkward options to good use. Few characters have the same amount of option coverage as Wii fit in footsies.



Like how pacman players gotta be creative in their item play and environment alterations (trampoline and hydrant), Wii Fit mains have to be highly creative in footsies and CQC.

They still have their flaws in those areas, (total lack of disjoint/lots of built in counterplay) don't get me wrong, but they aren't debilitating.

 

[|RK|]

Spindash isn't necessarily putting you in a bad position, its just putting Sonic in a better position. It also helps that players tend to panic and do something stupid whenever they see spindash come out. Needles on the other hand put both you in a bad position and Sheik in a good position depending on how they're used. They also cannot be reacted to unlike spindash. Its a lot easier to deal with spindash than needles

I suppose, but you can also get a lot more off of spindash. Needles don't reach as far as before, and while they are still amazing, I don't see how its as amazing as spindash, which has many more uses in neutral (even though Sheik's needles are better with a lead).

 

[Gamegenie222]

Hasn't Falco been said to have a good Bayo matchup or am I mistaken?

You heard wrong. That MU is not fun in the slightest for Falco.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

If there was any legitimate change I would make, it would be a nerf.

Nerf Diddy's banana so that it trips only when it comes into contact with a character on the ground floor. If the banana hits someone anywhere else, aka when its thrown, it has as much hitstun as a long range Mega Man pellet.

Diddy can be good on offense. Just don't let his defense be just as potent.

I would rather buff Falco before nerfing Diddy
This characters tools just don't fit together. His autocancels don't work out for him in a good way, some things don't properly link, some moves are just direct downgrades of Fox's, one fo the worst projectiles in the game, horrible mobility, ****ty recovery, etc. Who else can be described like this? Who else has nothing going for them except for decent frame data and combos?

 

[blackghost]

You heard wrong. That MU is not fun in the slightest for Falco.

yeah i was a little confused there falco has none of the traits bayo hates to deal with.
imo those traits are
the ability to zone her out, long distance or invincible recovery, kill throw, grab combos, or more mobility than she has.

 

[L9999]

Question: based on the current tier list, who would you put above to raise his position?

I'd stick Zard between B Jr and WFT.

Above Dr. Mario, Falco, and Roy without much hesitation. If he gets played more I would place him above Samus, maybe Shulk. On topic, I played a local Charizard. The guy used Flamethrower at the edge for all it was worth (gimped me), he employed a Meta Knight tactic of using jumps to keep me guessing when he will come down with an aerial, he exploited Down Smash 2 frames for all it is worth, and when he had the lead he recovered with Flare Blitz to boost his rage. Really excited to see if Charizard can live up to his hype.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If there was any legitimate change I would make, it would be a nerf.

Nerf Diddy's banana so that it trips only when it comes into contact with a character on the ground floor. If the banana hits someone anywhere else, aka when its thrown, it has as much hitstun as a long range Mega Man pellet.

Diddy can be good on offense. Just don't let his defense be just as potent.

lol **** the banana. Nerf that world ending fair of his. The range is bonkers.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

If there was any legitimate change I would make, it would be a nerf.

Nerf Diddy's banana

lol **** the banana. Nerf that world ending fair of his

Why is this still happening

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think Fair is more of a shutdown to characters that absolutely need their aerial approach options(Sheik can't jump into no banana Diddy, Puff gets swatted down, Pika's trades become extremely unfavourable[2% for 10%, or something], Peach's everything) but banana is better vs characters that don't have safe pressure options.
What separates a good Diddy and a great one is the ability to recognize the MUs where they should abuse heavy banana usage(Bayo, ZSS, Kirby) vs others where they should play with heavy aerial pressure(Peach, Yoshi, Puff)

 

[MarshieMan]

If there was any legitimate change I would make, it would be a nerf.

Nerf Diddy's banana so that it trips only when it comes into contact with a character on the ground floor. If the banana hits someone anywhere else, aka when its thrown, it has as much hitstun as a long range Mega Man pellet.

Diddy can be good on offense. Just don't let his defense be just as potent.

Making the banana dirt useless is not a legitimate change lol. Grounded bananas only account for a very very small portion of trips. Plus a grounded banana deals no damage and immobilizes the opponent for half as long as a thrown banana.

The banana in smash 4 was clearly designed to be a mainly thrown item, not a trap.

The easiest way to balance diddy is to remove his Dtilt confirm and nerf Fair.


He doesn't need the dtilt confirm because his smash attacks are already better than most the cast, and he can banana -> U-smash

Fair just shuts down too many characters.

 

[meticulousboy]

I may have said this back on the other thread, but I will say it here.

I think will one day advance higher on the tier list, what with his ultra reliance on reads. I know Sheik and Diddy Kong have the quick frame data, even though it's the former who struggles with KOs. But Ike can get a stock off so early if he makes the correct read.

 

[meleebrawler]

Your daily custom use reminder: Diddy has Shocking Banana Peels for focusing on it's ground trap usage.

meticulousboy Uh-huh. Try telling that to Ganondorf.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Banana has clear counter play. The generic counter play to Fair is to just crouch and reduce your hurtbox, but now you are subject to Diddy's amazing ground game. He still controls the tempo of the match. So the solution is to dial back that fair of his. Seriously how is it that even mid level Diddy's can make higher level players work for it or Fair can be a panic button in footsie situations. If Sheik does a bad fair she pays for it. Diddy's often get away with them and that is not ok.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Your daily custom use reminder: Diddy has Shocking Banana Peels for focusing on it's ground trap usage.

meticulousboy Uh-huh. Try telling that to Ganondorf.

Tagging doesn't work when edited in, and Ike has better frame data and range than Ganondorf. Hell, his aerials are surprisingly quick, especially bair considering it's range

 

[meticulousboy]

Tagging doesn't work when edited in, and Ike has better frame data and range than Ganondorf. Hell, his aerials are surprisingly quick, especially bair considering it's range

Exactly. Ike and Ganondorf may be heavy, but Ike has fewer hurtboxes than Ganondorf. Therefore, Ike is the harder one to hit.

Let's not forget that Ike has a good KO setup: airdodge bait into Up Air.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I may have said this back on the other thread, but I will say it here.

I think will one day advance higher on the tier list, what with his ultra reliance on reads. I know Sheik and Diddy Kong have the quick frame data, even though it's the former who struggles with KOs. But Ike can get a stock off so early if he makes the correct read.

Characters like Ike and Ganon that rely on reads will drop. As sad as it is to say, if your character isn't able to perform their own gameplan without considering how good the opponent is they're most likely going to drop over time.
For example, if I Utilt you at 15 with Fox you can be my little brother, a person without thumbs, or ZeRo. You'll take 40-50 minimum no matter what you want to do. The entirety of what you just said can be paraphrased into "Ike will get better if I know exactly what the opponent will do."

 

[meticulousboy]

Pretty much. If we can find more people like that in general, not just those who main Ike, the character can be seen in a whole new light, not just the player.
For the purposes of this, I am focusing on Ike, but you know.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty much. If we can find more people like that in general, not just those who main Ike, the character can be seen in a whole new light, not just the player.
For the purposes of this, I am focusing on Ike, but you know.

Wait....you said Ike will go higher due to ultra reliance on reads?

Sorry to inform you but when it comes to your interpretation of what tiers are and how chars are ranked...

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!!!

 

[meticulousboy]

I had a feeling. But I was wondering if something like that can additionally determine whether a character advances, not just from looking at tournament results.
Tournament results do make the order of the characters on the list. I will agree with that.

 

[PK Gaming]

So Dath just beat Marrs 2-1 at Shine, and I know i'm technically posting in the wrong thread, but i'd like to use that match segue into a point:

"Robin can muscle his way through pretty much any matchup."

I'm not saying that Robin wins a ton of matchups (quite the opposite in fact; too many matchups feel like an uphill battle), but I genuinely believe that Robin has a realistic shot of winning pretty much any given matchup in the game. Even ZSS vs Robin which is borderline impossible on paper, but Dath literally managed to clutch it out through a well timed Checkmate and other shenanigans.

I feel that way about many of the characters with kill set ups, but definitely Robin's since his is the most powerful by far.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean....Robin has a powerful confirm from a grab.

Last time I checked thats a pretty big ****ing deal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hasn't Falco been said to have a good Bayo matchup or am I mistaken?

Falco has no such thing as a "good matchup".

 

[Nah]

So Dath just beat Marrs 2-1 at Shine, and I know i'm technically posting in the wrong thread, but i'd like to use that match segue into a point:

"Robin can muscle his way through pretty much any matchup."

I'm not saying that Robin wins a ton of matchups (quite the opposite in fact; too many matchups feel like an uphill battle), but I genuinely believe that Robin has a realistic shot of winning pretty much any given matchup in the game. Even ZSS vs Robin which is borderline impossible on paper, but Dath literally managed to clutch it out through a well timed Checkmate and other shenanigans.

I feel that way about many of the characters with kill set ups, but definitely Robin's since his is the most powerful by far.

Well, yes, that'd be because very few matchups are unwinnable in this game. The same applies to a lot of mid tiers I would think. This isn't Melee or Brawl where the top tiers **** so hard on the rest of the cast.

Though I wonder if perhaps instead the Zero Suit MU isn't as bad as we used to think. Maybe the nerfs made enough of a difference that the MU is, while still not in Robin's favor, not a just roll over and die one.

 

[san.]

Ike benefits from reads, but IMO he's not overly reliant on them. He has the capability to play a proper spacing game and a good portion of his spacing attacks double as combo starters. Ganon cannot do this, so I don't think they're in the same boat. He can fully retreat aerials on most of the cast. Dtilt/ pp dtilt and jab 1-2 mixups allow him to press buttons on the ground. A pivot grab suitable for anti-air like Bowser/DK-lite helps defensive play as well.

I actually think his players will benefit from a less read-heavy playstyle outside of coinflip situations from a setup. Most characters have to respect fair in disadvantage and forces 50/50s on most characters (will hit them out of double jump). He has a good enough frame advantage on hit from his setups at higher % that forces the opponent to perform an action.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That Robin has a grab confirm into a KO alone is not enough. Having a confirm into the grab itself is also a pretty big deal. Never underestimate Arcthunder.




As for potential unwinnable matchups, I'd like to sign my name alongside Tink vs. Mewtwo. What exactly is Tink supposed to do against a character that can reflect the basis for his combos on reaction, outrange in the air with Fair, and outrange on the ground with Dtilt?

 

[meticulousboy]

Ike even has a reliable way of getting the 2 frame window with Eruption. He should have no problem doing that on the likes of Fox Illusion or even Falcon Dive. If Ganondorf can catch it with his Dtilt, congratulations to him. But Ike has to release the button whereas Ganondorf has to time the button press. It's all about the ease.

 

[Murlough]

That Robin has a grab confirm into a KO alone is not enough. Having a confirm into the grab itself is also a pretty big deal. Never underestimate Arcthunder.




As for potential unwinnable matchups, I'd like to sign my name alongside Tink vs. Mewtwo. What exactly is Tink supposed to do against a character that can reflect the basis for his combos on reaction, outrange in the air with Fair, and outrange on the ground with Dtilt?

On paper, yes. However, Tink can be surprising versatile. Keeping close to Mewtwo and playing just outside his range makes Tink much harder to reach to. Confusion can only coverage so much area and it isn't fast enough to reflect every bomb.

Confusion is also a commitment against tink. If the tink player knows that the Mewtwo wants to reflect every projectile they can bait it and land a Fair easily.

On paper Mewtwo destroys Tink but in reality it certainly isn't unwinnable. I'd say its 60:40 or maybe even 70:30 at top level but not unwinnable.

If you don't believe Tink can win go to Izaw's channel. His Link beat Aba's Mewtwo in a single game they played (not a set so not super credible, my point with this is if Link can win this matchup then Tink certainly can).

 

[Mr. Johan]

Link and Tink are functionally different characters in this matchup. Link's damage output is not wholly tethered to Bomb confirms, his grab and Zair are longer, Link Ftilt is more potent in the ground game, he's certainly living longer, Link's fastfall helps in air to ground positioning a lot better than Tink's does, and Link kills raw earlier.

Mewtwo is constantly playing footsies with Link because the Mewtwo knows that Link will get a hit in if he slightly misspaces, and those hits rack up with the mighty power of Link's Master Sword. With Tink, the threat level is not as blatant.

 

[adom4]

Ike even has a reliable way of getting the 2 frame window with Eruption. He should have no problem doing that on the likes of Fox Illusion or even Falcon Dive. If Ganondorf can catch it with his Dtilt, congratulations to him. But Ike has to release the button whereas Ganondorf has to time the button press. It's all about the ease.

Ganon should just go out vs Falcon anyway, Nair and Uair wreck him hard offstage.

 

[Kofu]

Ganon should just go out vs Falcon anyway, Nair and Uair wreck him hard offstage.

NAir's repeated modifications that eventually made it like Falcon's NAir weren't all good, but they did make it a really good edgeguarding tool.