Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Illuminose]

They haven't.

Zero is going almost strictly by his gut or "potential".

At least he's giving me perfect examples for my rants about don't use potential in a tier list because otherwise you can use it to justify just about anything

Isn't that the point of a personal tier list? His opinion? I don't really care about how ZeRo analyzes results I can look at myself -- I want to hear his opinion. It shouldn't matter whether his opinion has proved itself already for you to consider the point of view or the point of view to be valid.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean.

I'm not against Chairzard being in mid tier. I'd agree with it actually. (that or high low).

I'd just put him near the other end.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Zard above being bottom 20?

Idk if he is that high but I do agree he is highly underrated. Unfortunately a lot of it comes from the fact people don't know that much about him until they actually play against him.

Most of the time when I play against people with zard people go, wow he can actually do pretty dang good.

I fully agree he struggles against projectile characters, but ZSS is the worst of anyone he can face.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Idk I still prefer ZSS to Sonic when playinf as Zard, thank god I have Fox for that matchup though

 

[PK Gaming]

Truth be told, i'm not even sure why Charizard is super underrated. Nonexistant tournament results, sure, but plenty of of characters have nonexistent tournament results yet get ranked fairly decently (like Kirby).

What's the dealio?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Truth be told, i'm not even sure why Charizard is super underrated. Nonexistant tournament results, sure, but plenty of of characters have nonexistent tournament results yet get ranked fairly decently (like Kirby).

What's the dealio?

Because there's some odd idea that Charizard is bottom five or even the worst in the game.

I'd wager its due to his original iteration which was bad, but after all the buffs he's pretty decent now.

 

[L9999]

ZeRo's mid tier video make me want to take 24 hour geometry classes. having a solid neutral? Being better than ? recovery is not trash? rots in Hell?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Isn't that the point of a personal tier list? His opinion? I don't really care about how ZeRo analyzes results I can look at myself -- I want to hear his opinion. It shouldn't matter whether his opinion has proved itself already for you to consider the point of view or the point of view to be valid.

If its just personal opinion and nothing else... its not really a tier list. There's little to no fact behind it. Don't call it a tier list, particularly when you're the best player in the world and people will take your word as truth and we'll all be stuck hearing about his insane placements for months.

And you end up with stupid stuff like Shulk in high tier. Just... let that sink in for a moment.

Also Ryu will be in 1st and Corrin will be like, 8th.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly Ike has one of the better neutrals in the game. His damage output and range make him incredibly safe, his grab game isn't bad by any means, his cqc is good for having that much range, and his oos options aren't that bad either. The only thing he lacks is a projectile (which is almost made up for by his range honestly) and mobility.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

lol just a few months ago, people were saying that Doc's recovery was underrated and now its perceived as being terrible again? What matches have occurred to cause people to view it as bad again?

 

[C0rvus]

More than likely everyone forgot about Doc, because well... He doesn't show up much. Unless you have like, 2ManyCooks in your region, what point is there is even thinking about the character?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Every time I see someone dismiss Ike for not having a combo game of 4 or more hits, I want to hit them with two moves that takes away 1/3 of their stock off the bat.

 

[TDK]

ZeRo's 1.1.6 tier list, mid tier edition:

Picture version of said tier list so far:

Putting any single one of Kirby, GnW, Charizard, and Doctor Mario above Ike and Palutena is dumb. All four? Come on, now.

Really, this should be treated as Lower-mid, not mid, and the title is extremely misleading. Even then, I don't agree with Ike being so low.

 

[Murlough]

I'm going to post my tier list at some point tomorrow. With the heavy disagrrement against ZeRo's list, I'm curious what everyone here will think of mine. Hopefully no one thinks I'm a complete moron.

It won't be based solely on results* since you can look up results for yourself. I prefer to try and think ahead of the current meta. Who will rise? Who will fall? Which characters have room to grow? Who is unanimously argreed to be good? Who is unanimously agreed to be bad? I tried to ask myself these questions before making the list and I think it came out well. Some people are going to roll their eyes though...

*Results are still a factor. Some placements were super difficult when I had the characters side by side. I used results to place some characters over others in these situations.

 

[UberMadman]

Truth be told, i'm not even sure why Charizard is super underrated. Nonexistant tournament results, sure, but plenty of of characters have nonexistent tournament results yet get ranked fairly decently (like Kirby).

What's the dealio?

Anti-heavy bias coupled with his tiny playerbase. Heavies have been so universally terrible for the past couple of Smash games that people are quick to fall back on the (lazy) bias that they must be terrible characters without actually analyzing their kits themselves. People only seem to accept that Donkey Kong and Bowser have some aspects of merit because they can kill you off of a grab at around 90%, and since Charizard can't do that, he must be awful. When people ACTUALLY fight a decent Charizard is when people realize that the character actually has decent options in his kit as well as a functional gameplan, but Charizard has by far the least playerbase of any heavy and among the lowest of any character PERIOD, so it's pretty rare for people to get good Charizard experience.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Honestly Ike has one of the better neutrals in the game. His damage output and range make him incredibly safe, his grab game isn't bad by any means, his cqc is good for having that much range, and his oos options aren't that bad either. The only thing he lacks is a projectile (which is almost made up for by his range honestly) and mobility.

Eh his OoS options ain't great (Meh standing grab, Bair is an option but that doesn't work so well for in front of him). Rest of that is pretty spot on. His neutral is good, is advantage is frequently short lived but solid. Disadvantage is craaaap.

 

[TDK]

Puppeh made a Sheik MU chart. For those of you who don't know, Puppeh is a Sheik main from Southern Virginia who's ranked #1 in the region and #18 in MD/VA. He also notes that "he has a different style so some matchups might be different"

I think I'll post my tier list soon. Perhaps tomorrow?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

View attachment 116544
Puppeh made a Sheik MU chart. For those of you who don't know, Puppeh is a Sheik main from Southern Virginia who's ranked #1 in the region and #18 in MD/VA. He also notes that "he has a different style so some matchups might be different"

I think I'll post my tier list soon. Perhaps tomorrow?

That actually looks pretty good.

I like this matchup sheet.

 

[C0rvus]

I see Wario in even. Damage control, I see. Classy.

 

[Nobie]

ZeRo's comment about Kirby having a good neutral threw me off too, but I realized something when he followed that with "Kirby is bad at approaching."

I feel like often when people discuss neutral in Smash Bros, they translate it to "how well does this character approach?" But that's not the only element of neutral. It's about having all of your tools available to you and jockeying for position. ZeRo mentions that Kirby can force approaches, so it becomes a matter of how well can Kirby maintain a percent lead, or get one back if he has the opportunity. And because Kirby does so much damage every time he gets in, while he might have trouble approaching, his ability to even out the damage is quite good, which then forces the approach back on the opponent.

I also sometimes wonder if ZeRo is so good at winning in neutral that it colors his perception of some characters. What I mean is that he rates characters like Dedede higher than one might expect, yet we talk about how slow and bad Dedede is all the time because of how hard it is for him to get things going. But someone like ZeRo has the skill to consistently win neutral even with worse characters, so it being a weakness might not be as pronounced to him.

Given the discussion about Ven's matchup chart, I do think people have a tendency to unfairly rate low tiers and just assume that their character wins a particular low tier matchup. I'm not going to say that Zelda beats or even goes 50/50 with Cloud necessarily, but my first thought when seeing that was wondering what about Zelda's properties would even make someone think Cloud is an even matchup. The first thing that came to mind was Zelda's dair, a move that lasts a whopping 11 frames. Sure, most of that is the weak hitbox, but it's Cloud. You don't need an especially powerful attack to mess with his recovery. Moreover, Zelda doesn't have that hard of a time getting an opponent offstage, because of powerful tilts, a Bowser-esque grab, and decent throws for creating distance. Combined with the fact that Nayru's Love just outright beats a lot of things, I could see what Zelda could do to Clouds.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DK does not belong in even

He has no way to deal with Sheiks neutral, is easily edgeguarded, comboed to hell and back, etc

His only saving grace in the matchup is his comeback factor. Its the only thing I can think of that keeps him from being -2 or worse

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Regarding Zero's tier list, how exactly is Falco a mid tier? Even at the bottom of mid tier is generous he has little going for him in this game aside a good combo game and frame data.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm going to post my tier list at some point tomorrow.

I think I'll post my tier list soon. Perhaps tomorrow?

Remember to be really cautious when posting personal lists.
The axe's blade has been sharpened recently~

 

[Krysco]

Cousin just left and I dabbled in Zard on and off during the 12~ hours we played 1v1s. I don't have the same feelings for Zard as I do for Roy, on a fun factor anyways but I did make use of what I was told here and it was pretty neat to see and do. Zard's jab honestly reminds me of Brawl Ike's jab in terms of how good it is. Fast, decent range, decent power. Launching opponents at a low angle and then following up with a flare blitz is all kinds of fun and makes me actually feel good for landing it since it's not being used as a 'yolo powerful move'. Found more use for utilt than I thought I would and usmash is really good. All of his smashes are decent actually. Didn't have quite the same fortune trying to make use of his aerials. Made good use of fair and nair but found little use for uair and dair and I was having trouble with bair. Grabs are decent and every throw has a use (the faf on bthrow is beautiful. Knew that before this session). Short skid is nice, made getting into position for jabs, dtilts and utilts out of a run very quick. Rock Smash was decent for getting out of juggle situations but it is definitely too laggy to be a 'get out of jail free card' of sorts.

Won most of the matches where I played as Zard but my cousin has no idea how to fight him. Not sure how much I'll use him in our future sessions, can't see myself bringing him up like I did for Roy but I'm glad I asked about the character here and thankful for the answers I got. Wasn't quite the perspective changer like I had for Roy and I could still see Zard being a low tier (granted, I can easily see Roy staying as one) but I now have a better understanding of the character.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Cousin just left and I dabbled in Zard on and off during the 12~ hours we played 1v1s. I don't have the same feelings for Zard as I do for Roy, on a fun factor anyways but I did make use of what I was told here and it was pretty neat to see and do. Zard's jab honestly reminds me of Brawl Ike's jab in terms of how good it is. Fast, decent range, decent power. Launching opponents at a low angle and then following up with a flare blitz is all kinds of fun and makes me actually feel good for landing it since it's not being used as a 'yolo powerful move'. Found more use for utilt than I thought I would and usmash is really good. All of his smashes are decent actually. Didn't have quite the same fortune trying to make use of his aerials. Made good use of fair and nair but found little use for uair and dair and I was having trouble with bair. Grabs are decent and every throw has a use (the faf on bthrow is beautiful. Knew that before this session). Short skid is nice, made getting into position for jabs, dtilts and utilts out of a run very quick. Rock Smash was decent for getting out of juggle situations but it is definitely too laggy to be a 'get out of jail free card' of sorts.

Won most of the matches where I played as Zard but my cousin has no idea how to fight him. Not sure how much I'll use him in our future sessions, can't see myself bringing him up like I did for Roy but I'm glad I asked about the character here and thankful for the answers I got. Wasn't quite the perspective changer like I had for Roy and I could still see Zard being a low tier (granted, I can easily see Roy staying as one) but I now have a better understanding of the character.

Loved hearing your thoughts and I'm glad your understanding of Zard has changed.


I will say though.

and I was having trouble with bair.

Bair is really weird at first.

It kills stupid early and has tons of range. You'd think it's strictly a kill move, but dare I say it, it can be used as a poke sometimes...

That landing lag reduction really helped that move.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Loved hearing your thoughts and I'm glad your understanding of Zard has changed.


I will say though.


Bair is really weird at first.

It kills stupid early and has tons of range. You'd think it's strictly a kill move, but dare I say it, it can be used as a poke sometimes...

That landing lag reduction really helped that move.

tbh I'm just waiting until you make a Zard guide at this point

 

[Wintermelon43]

What I don't understand is why at the end of the last CCI, people were complaining about how Charizard deserves to be bottom 5 and is easily bottom tier......

.......But then when he gets placed there, people complain about how Charizard is defitenly mid tier and not bottom tier.

Like, make up your minds people.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What I don't understand is why at the end of the last CCI, people were complaining about how Charizard deserves to be bottom 5 and is easily bottom tier......

.......But then when he gets placed there, people complain about how Charizard is defitenly mid tier and not bottom tier.

Like, make up your minds people.

1. Footage of really good Charizard mains started to become well known (like Sharpy).
2. Different people are saying these things.
3.A lot people here have no idea what the character can do or can't do so they go with fads whether they be negative or positive.

 

[Pazzo.]

ZeRo's list looks like it's leaning toward theory, and less results.

This may become the anti-Smashboards tier list. Especially with that Roy and Zard.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

ZeRo's list looks like it's leaning toward theory, and less results.

This may become the anti-Smashboards tier list. Especially with that Roy and Zard.

Didn't ZeRo put Shulk in high tier?
EDIT: FUUUUUUDGE I THOUGHT I WAS IN A SOCIAL >.<

 

[Ilikebugs]

His blaster hits anyone on stage no matter where they are and it's a one hit ko.

 

[L9999]

Didn't ZeRo put Shulk in high tier?

Challenge time! Change a single move for as many Smash 4 characters as you can, and the change makes the character overpowered

Bring back Brawl banana. There you go, I killed this game in 1 shot.

 

[FullMoon]

Substitute kinda already has invincibility frames, just not when the attack comes out.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Substitute kinda already has invincibility frames, just not when the attack comes out.

That's what I meant when I said that, as the attack has too much start up to justify being able to get hit out of the attack. I've had situations where I'd win with Substitute but ultimately lost because I got punished for using an attack that only works when punishing

 

[FullMoon]

If you want to make Substitute good just make it so the opponent gets stuck in place when they trigger the counter until Greninja hits them so it won't ever miss.

 

[Murlough]

Needles go across the full stage.
Marth's blade is a tipper throughout the length of the blade.
Cloud always has limit.
Link's arrows are always fully charged.
Zero Suit Samus has the same endlag on her grab that sheik does.
Pikachu shoots three thunderjolts at the same time.





Why are we doing this?

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Forward Smash has no endlag
Dragon Fang Shot has no endlag and the bite is optional
Rising Uppercut has 4x as much vertical distance, can be angled more and auto-snaps the ledge

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If you want to make Substitute good just make it so the opponent gets stuck in place when they trigger the counter until Greninja hits them so it won't ever miss.

As scrubby as it sounds, I feel this at the very least sounds good from a gameplay perspective, as Substitute is absolute rubbish now

Why are we doing this?

Because I can't read thread titles

 

[FamilyTeam]

New Forward Smash has no endlag

Imagine her Side Smash as a poke.
A completely safe on shield potentially 60% kill move poke.
People would still say Marth is better and that he has more range

 

[C0rvus]

What I don't understand is why at the end of the last CCI, people were complaining about how Charizard deserves to be bottom 5 and is easily bottom tier......

.......But then when he gets placed there, people complain about how Charizard is defitenly mid tier and not bottom tier.

Like, make up your minds people.

Wow, it's like we're not a hive mind and have differing opinions from one another. Crazy. FWIW I don't think Zard is mid tier, but he sure isn't bottom 5.