Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Krysco]

Look at this place.
Some people here haven't even gotten over the fact they have the same range, do you expect people to notice she was buffed? Too much information to process, eh.
Then you have people such as ESAM that are really helping:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stigma Lucina has is astounding.

Yeah, my cousin has a pocket Marth and he's of the opinion that if you master how to play Marth then there is no point in playing Lucina. To my understanding, Mr. E, False and Pugwest all use Marth but not Lucina which would seem to further that notion. I personally prefer Lucina over Marth but that's because for 15 years I haven't been able to memorize the spacing for tips at all. Prefer Roy way more than either of them though. Even with the view point my cousin has, even he agrees that Lucina is far too low on the tier list.

 

[Zannabluke]

Look at this place.
Some people here haven't even gotten over the fact they have the same range, do you expect people to notice she was buffed? Too much information to process, eh.
Then you have people such as ESAM that are really helping:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stigma Lucina has is astounding.

"i hate talking to lucina and mii players!" said the pika main

the irony

 

[Wintermelon43]

Look at this place.
Some people here haven't even gotten over the fact they have the same range, do you expect people to notice she was buffed? Too much information to process, eh.
Then you have people such as ESAM that are really helping:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stigma Lucina has is astounding.

"i hate talking to lucina and mii players!" said the pika main

the irony

Didn't Esam say we need to make sure the community never gets divided and that people need to not be as rude to other people in the community with differant thoughts (Mostly melee vs smash 4 debates)? Because saying that isn't helping lol.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Look at this place.
Some people here haven't even gotten over the fact they have the same range, do you expect people to notice she was buffed? Too much information to process, eh.
Then you have people such as ESAM that are really helping:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stigma Lucina has is astounding.

I love how ESAM claims to hate talking to Mii mains. It's not like they aren't allowed to use their character to it's full potential, so they have every right to be pissed

 

[Dinoman96]

Please don't talk about the whole Mii fiasco in here.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Please don't talk about the whole Mii fiasco in here.

It's just proving ESAM isn't all too smart. He complains about Lucina mains, who are rightfully pissed because people keep thinking she is just a low tier Marth or something, and Mii mains have all the right to be pissed because of said fiasco, so ESAM complaining about them is just as dumb

 

[Ninety]

Maybe he says he doesn't like talking to Mii or Lucina mains because of their tendency to pontificate about their mains even in context where no one but them is interested in discussing it. And being a high-level and very recognizable player, I'd wager he gets a lot of people pestering him about them.

But hey, don't let me stop the "ESAM isn't all too smart" train.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe he says he doesn't like talking to Mii or Lucina mains because of their tendency to pontificate about their mains even in context where no one but them is interested in discussing it. And being a high-level and very recognizable player, I'd wager he gets a lot of people pestering him about them.

But hey, don't let me stop the "ESAM isn't all too smart" train.

Considering he constantly exaggerates Pika's viability, I'd say he simply put doesn't get to complain about those characters

 

[Murlough]

Maybe he says he doesn't like talking to Mii or Lucina mains because of their tendency to pontificate about their mains even in context where no one but them is interested in discussing it. And being a high-level and very recognizable player, I'd wager he gets a lot of people pestering him about them.

But hey, don't let me stop the "ESAM isn't all too smart" train.

Funnily enough, ESAM does the exact same thing with Pikachu. How long has he been arguing with people that Pikachu is better than everyone else says? (Kinda like Lucina...way to be a hypocrit ESAM)

I looked through the rules of this thread again but didn't see a rule specifically regarding Miis. Are they not allowed to be discussed here?

Edit: 'd

 

[Frihetsanka]

Chances are some Lucina mains like to discuss Lucina with him since he placed her in bottom 7 (bottom 10 if you include Miis, I suppose, which he didn't).

 

[Yoshister]

I've seen a lot of talk of being mid tier recently (Probably because of ZeRo's wacky tier list), but what about ?

After seeing ZeRo's list, I was wondering what the general perception of Doc is around here.

Also apparently some people think is mid as well. That's interesting.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've seen a lot of talk of being mid tier recently (Probably because of ZeRo's wacky tier lost)

Actually, that was being discussed before ZeRo had his tier list video with Zard on

 

[Yoshister]

Actually, that was being discussed before ZeRo had his tier list video with Zard on

I assume it added fuel to the fire.


 

[Murlough]

I've seen a lot of talk of being mid tier recently (Probably because of ZeRo's wacky tier lost), but what about ?

After seeing ZeRo's list, I was wondering what the general perception of Doc is around here.

Also apparently some people think is mid as well. That's interesting.

I think Doc is exactly as bad as most would believe, unfortunately.

He does have some qualities that save him from being a completely worse Mario: his cyclone is a decent gimping tool on characters with poor recovery, his projectile is non-absorbable, and....he hits harder? I can't think of anything else.

Everything else, combo-ability, mobility, gets more off grabs, doesn't need cyclone with Fludd and cape, etc., Mario just does better.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Doc is exactly as bad as most would believe, unfortunately.

He does have some qualities that save him from being a completely worse Mario: his cyclone is a decent gimping tool on characters with poor recovery, his projectile is non-absorbable, and....he hits harder? I can't think of anything else.

He has a frame 3 kill move iirc(Up B)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Roy is the bottom of high tier fam.

 

[Kofu]

OzHadou Nationals 14 (Aussie national) results quoted below.

I think I saw someone mention recently there's a trick to avoiding G&W's toot toot ever killing, would anyone care to share it with literally the entirety of Australia? Anyway, this character is still underrated, pocket Cloud is still good, greninja sux, perhaps surprisingly good performances from Australia's Mewtwo's. Feel free to discuss in the Summer of Smash thread :]

Unfortunately my stamina gave out during the Luco/Ghost rematch so I didn't get a chance to watch grand finals, thus I'm not sure how many of his kills on Ghost were from it.

In my experience though, it feels like a lot of characters can just DI the direction Game & Watch is facing to make it a lot harder to connect. Additionally, it's usually easier to connect on characters with faster fall speeds, since the first hit of UAir has knockback growth (for some reason).

Whenever I hit with it it only really kills like once every ten times, so frankly I'd like to learn the secret to it killing. From what I saw of the Extra/Luco match it's possible he waited until conditions were optimal to kill before going for the grab (but IIRC it only killed once in that set anyway?).

 

[Murlough]

Roy is the bottom of high tier fam.

Do you actually think so or are you being sarcastic?

If you actually think that I'd love to know why.

Edit regarding Doc: its a frame three kill move that you have to make a hard read to get. It isn't reliable with Doc's mobility issues.

 

[Ninety]

Roy is the bottom of high tier fam.

Roy is the highest of bottom tier fam.

FTFY

 

[vertime]

Do you actually think so or are you being sarcastic?

If you actually think that I'd love to know why.

Personally I think Roy is certainly mid tier maybe a little higher. Down throw leads into so much and his UpB has great killing power. He's a little easy to gimp, though. I think too many people go "Oh sword character with a hilt damage up that's useless". In my opinion that's pretty good. You can use the sword for range and get the hilt hits for kills. Best of both worlds.

Maybe like around C tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

fam..listen to me

TOYAAAAAAHH!!!

EYAH!!

DUWAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

"For those I must protect, I CANNOT LOSE!!!!"

Ok, but seriously. Ground game is too good. Nair too good. Empty Short hop mix-up game too stronk. Really easy trap situations that can lead to death with U-smash. Blazer is a solid AA for slow or obvious aerials. D-tilt super good. Any char that can contest Mewtwo or Diddy on the ground....yeaaaaaaaaaa buddy. Grab game set-ups duh. Probably the 3rd best ground mobility game overall after Cloud and Little Mac.

His edgeguarding is kinda linear tho and he can't go deep. He also has **** disadvantage so high tier is absolutely his limit.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

you can use the sword for range and get the hilt hits for kills. Best of both worlds.

Isn't a common criticism about Roy being his short range among swordies?

 

[vertime]

Isn't a common criticism about Roy being his short range among swordies?

True, he isn't exactly a guy to stick his arm out all the way, but maybe instead of playing him purely like a swordy you play him like a hybrid

w h i c h h e k i n d o f i s.

 

[Murlough]

Isn't a common criticism about Roy being his short range among swordies?

Meta Knight does, too. The trick is finding a way to make that work. If you try to play Meta Knight like Marth then you are doing it wrong. Same thing for Roy.

You have to find the right playstyle for each character.

 

[L9999]

Look at this place.
Some people here haven't even gotten over the fact they have the same range, do you expect people to notice she was buffed? Too much information to process, eh.
Then you have people such as ESAM that are really helping:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

The stigma Lucina has is astounding.

Does ESAM knows self control?

I've seen a lot of talk of being mid tier recently (Probably because of ZeRo's wacky tier list), but what about ?

After seeing ZeRo's list, I was wondering what the general perception of Doc is around here.

Also apparently some people think is mid as well. That's interesting.

has strong options, but he drowns in the enormous cast of characters who are much better than him. is getting more hype because top players that pocket him do well with him, kinda like , except the players that pocketare more popular and they pull him out more often. By numerical logic he is on the lower part of the cast, but in this game low tiers have options.

 

[Krysco]

fam..listen to me

TOYAAAAAAHH!!!

EYAH!!

DUWAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

"For those I must protect, I CANNOT LOSE!!!!"

Ok, but seriously. Ground game is too good. Nair too good. Empty Short hop mix-up game too stronk. Really easy trap situations that can lead to death with U-smash. Blazer is a solid AA for slow or obvious aerials. D-tilt super good. Any char that can contest Mewtwo or Diddy on the ground....yeaaaaaaaaaa buddy. Grab game set-ups duh. Probably the 3rd best ground mobility game overall after Cloud and Little Mac.

His edgeguarding is kinda linear tho and he can't go deep. He also has **** disadvantage so high tier is absolutely his limit.

I agree with pretty much everything although I'd love to hear about these 'easy trap situations into a killing usmash'. And I personally find Blazer underwhelming as an anti-air, at least at low percents. Punishable on hit. As for his recovery, he's got counter for ones with a hitbox, ledge trump bair, run off fair and I've been trying to get run off, read an airdodge and catch them with Blazer to be a thing since one of the best things about that move is its ability to stage spike.

Meta Knight does, too. The trick is finding a way to make that work. If you try to play Meta Knight like Marth then you are doing it wrong. Same thing for Roy.

You have to find the right playstyle for each character.

As much as I love Roy, I'm still getting used to this. That air acceleration of his does not allow for jump in retreating aerials. Gotta position yourself with ground movement first then jump where you want to go, usually either where you are or retreating.

 

[vertime]

Meta Knight does, too. The trick is finding a way to make that work. If you try to play Meta Knight like Marth then you are doing it wrong. Same thing for Roy.

You have to find the right playstyle for each character.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Probably the 3rd best ground mobility game overall after Cloud and Little Mac..[/QUOTE]
So uhhh.... I guess Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Sonic don't count? Ok...

 

[DanGR]

So uhhh.... I guess Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Sonic don't count? Ok...

You're only looking at run speed. Mobility encompasses fox trot mixups, PPs, and other aspects of ground play used to mask movement and/or position oneself for whatever.

 

[|RK|]

So, with getting notable placemetns at a secondary, is it safe to say he's out of bottom tier?

Additionally, solo just got 33rd at Shine. Take from that what you will, but that's extremely impressive.

Going by the Toon Link vs Mewtwo MU analysis, Puff beats Mewtwo (Kappa).

Same Mewtwo (Z), iirc. But the switch to Mario that match was more important... Puff looks like she has no options against him. Was kinda sad, tbh.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Probably the 3rd best ground mobility game overall after Cloud and Little Mac..

So uhhh.... I guess Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Sonic don't count? Ok...[/QUOTE]

I was thinking in conjunction with pivots and the options those open up combined with ground options and SH options. I forgot about Sheik I admit. But the others? Nah. Look at Roy's pivot, his walk, his pivot tilts, grab game, ability to use a transcendent option out of a dash, etc.

 

[Luco]

Unfortunately my stamina gave out during the Luco/Ghost rematch so I didn't get a chance to watch grand finals, thus I'm not sure how many of his kills on Ghost were from it.

In my experience though, it feels like a lot of characters can just DI the direction Game & Watch is facing to make it a lot harder to connect. Additionally, it's usually easier to connect on characters with faster fall speeds, since the first hit of UAir has knockback growth (for some reason).

Whenever I hit with it it only really kills like once every ten times, so frankly I'd like to learn the secret to it killing. From what I saw of the Extra/Luco match it's possible he waited until conditions were optimal to kill before going for the grab (but IIRC it only killed once in that set anyway?).

I know Extra uses a particular control setup to make that combo as easy as possible. That said, I did notice on re-inspection that I fell out of it a lot and so did a few other people earlier on. It's one of the stranger hoo-hahs in this game.

 

[TDK]

Roy is the bottom of high tier fam.

Not yet...

Soon though. All we need is a Roy Main, and not a Roy Secondary.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You're only looking at run speed. Mobility encompasses fox trot mixups, PPs, and other ground-based tech used to mask movement.

I was actually looking at run speed, dash to shield (Roy's are some of the worst in the game), walk speeds, walk acceleration, and PPs but ok

EDIT: Forgot initial dash speed

 

[FeelMeUp]

Fox has some of the best grounded mobility in the game and I'd be baffled if you put Roy above the options Fox has.

 

[Yoshister]

I don't think people realize that isn't supposed to be played like .
It's like saying should be played like .

Doc biggest strength is his OOS game. With his throw combos, SJP, RAR Bair (That can combo into itself at low percents), up smash, and down smash, anything not safe on shield is punished harder than getting a MD.

Combined with his slower (But not awful) mobility and eh recovery, Doc works best as a defensive character.

Mario is more of a rushdown character, with his good mobility, recovery, up smash, dash grab, and Fireball (It's not great, but it's decent when you run with it I guess). While Mario has good OOS as well, Doc's is significantly better.

Instead of simply comparing him to Mario, look at him as his own character and determine his viability from there.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Wait wait,
there are people thinking Roy is some kind of High Tier threat, now?
I know dedicated and optimistic Roy mains that think that is somewhat of a stretch.

 

[vertime]

Wait wait,
there are people thinking Roy is some kind of High Tier threat, now?
I know dedicated and optimistic Roy mains that think that is somewhat of a stretch.

Don't really think he's a high tier threat but he's certainly mid tier somewhere.

 

[EternalFlare]

Honestly I feel like Marth was just super under rated before the buffs and was never really low tier. His buffs were more than just quality of life buffs, they basically cleansed him of the low tier status that he started out with just because he wasn't Brawl Marth

Now if only people realized Lucina got buffs too...

Anywho, we have Esam in top 8 for the first time in a while. What happens if he wins though? Are we going to glorify Pikachu for having a player that can live up to the impossible standards theory has set for him and his players or are we going to still call him an overrated rat?

Esam would have to continue to show strong performances at future majors. If he at the very least starts consistently making top 16, then there would be a strong case for Pikachu being top 15 results wise.

As of now characters like Megaman,Villager, Marth and Toon Link have shown much stronger performances at much more stacked tournaments. Megaman got 2nd at Evo, 4th at Umebara, 5th at SSC, top 16 at CEO and regurly does well in Japan. Villager also does well in Japan and got 3rd at G3 and 5th at Evo. These two particular characters are ranked worse than Pika on the tier list despite having these amazing results that are far better than anything Pika has managed even if Esam were to win this tournament.

In other words consistency is needed at big events, not just one big win. Pit isn't top 15 because Earth got 9th at Evo. And let's not forget Robin at worst is going to get 5th at this tournament as well, is he suddenly high tier because of it?

After all, one strong performance could just mean a lucky bracket or the reliance on gimmicks (tactics that only work due to MU inexperience). So it's important not to jump the gun, especially in a game as volatile as Smash 4.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So uhhh.... I guess Fox, Sheik, ZSS, Greninja, and Sonic don't count? Ok...

I was thinking in conjunction with pivots and the options those open up combined with ground options and SH options. I forgot about Sheik I admit. But the others? Nah. Look at Roy's pivot, his walk, his pivot tilts, grab game, ability to use a transcendent option out of a dash, etc.

Don't forget about his Dash Skid, which has very low cooldown and allows Roy to use alot of his grounded options out of a dash.