Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[MistressRemilia]

I don't think people realize that isn't supposed to be played like .
It's like saying should be played like .

Doc biggest strength is his OOS game. With his throw combos, SJP, RAR Bair (That can combo into itself at low percents), up smash, and down smash, anything not safe on shield is punished harder than getting a MD.

Combined with his slower (But not awful) mobility and eh recovery, Doc works best as a defensive character.

Mario is more of a rushdown character, with his good mobility, recovery, up smash, dash grab, and Fireball (It's not great, but it's decent when you run with it I guess). While Mario has good OOS as well, Doc's is significantly better.

Instead of simply comparing him to Mario, look at him as his own character and determine his viability from there.

I feel a lot of why Doc is so poorly thought of is due to a complete misunderstanding reasoning on the basis that "Worse is bad" :

Doc may not have combos as strong as Mario, moreso at mid% than in any % where they're otherwise fairly equal, but they're still strong & consistent, add on stronger out of shield & a kill confirm ( Frame 3 UpB that kills at around 120% is extremely scary to fight against & should definitly be respected, there's also Doc's Dthrow to Fair, which is a respectable true confirm on a fair amount of the cast, the one class it doesn't work on are floaties, other average charas in fallspeed have pretty tight % for it to be true, but it is possible on them. ) Doc's advantage state is still very much respectable, which is something i believe ZeRo got overall about Doc ( I do not agree with his placement, it is indeed arguably too high for what Doc can offer in the current metagame: Ike & Wario are more viable that actually have a fair shot against almost everyone ).

Doc's neutral is also very slept on, and while i wouldn't call it good, i would certainly judge it as respectable against most of the cast. Doc's mobility issue really start hurting against swordies & big hitboxes, which is where Doc struggles the most in my opinion. I believe that against most of the cast, we have a fair shot thanks to our great oos answers, very fluid game thanks to our great frame data, autocancels, non commital options to throw out. He also has a projectile that isn't exceptional by any means by has its uses, offering us a " long range " option that, unlike fireballs, can't be SH'd over. Cape is probably among the best reflectors in the game, easily one of the least commital even at a mid range thanks to its SH AC. Overall, the amount of consistency & the capability of Doc is kind of underrated as well, and this character still requires some respect to beat.

Disadvantage state... it's mostly matchup dependant, it isn't something i believe you can talk about as an overall thing when every character's ability to juggle, edgeguard, or combo is more or less efficient. It isn't that bad overall tho, jump and upb will allow you to recover without much issue against a fair amount of the cast, to the point where if you get edgeguarded, it is usually still your fault. Landing has been improved lately with momentum shift via B Reversal with either pills or cape. Frame 3 UpB/Nair & good physics allows us to not get bodied too hard by some combos, granting us fair survivability.

I apologize for the redundance of this post with an earlier one i wrote about Doc, but i feel all of this information is key to better understanding of the character, which would really be appreciated, not just for people to realize Doc's potency as a character, but also for the sake of avoiding misinformation all over the place, akin to some Lucina discussions. I can only advice to also try out Doc for a bit for yourself, looking at a guide, and playing friendlies with competent players: I'd say it should help vizualize how dynamic Doc can be, and the amount of options the character has at its disposal against most of the cast is large enough to have a fair shot against even top tiers, which reinforces the character's utility at a high level.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I think sometimes people look at Falco and just assume that because he has all these issues, it must mean everything about him is bad. Going back to the discussion of Falco vs. Bayonetta, it was stated that Falco has none of the qualities that Bayonetta dislikes, but that's not true. He has a good grab combo game, and he has kill throws (though they're pretty middle of the road as far as those go).

Yes true but not the mobility for and with a 8 frame standing grab and a 10 frame dash grab he's risking his butt especially Bayo can up b if the distance and/ or timing isnt right. He does have a projectile but a near full second of end lag and Bayo can crouch and side b under it or dABK it doesn't help outside of tick percent.

 

[Ninety]

I'm wondering where these sudden changes in opinion are coming from, here. "Charizard has too many options to be bottom 5 despite a scarcity of results" becomes "Charizard is a super underrated mid-high tier", and "Roy got some decent usage from Manny and Ryo" becomes "Roy is secretly a high tier threat". I mean, what?

 

[Nah]

I'm wondering where these sudden changes in opinion are coming from, here. "Charizard has too many options to be bottom 5 despite a scarcity of results" becomes "Charizard is a super underrated mid-high tier", and "Roy got some decent usage from Manny and Ryo" becomes "Roy is secretly a high tier threat". I mean, what?

It's a somewhat common occurrence whenever a character that doesn't do much happens to do something for once.

Tho I think EL has had a high opinion of Roy for a while now

 

[blackghost]

who is a prominent roy to watch then? the only one i know of is setholon and he doesnt win his local much if ever.
i dont believe roy is anything above mid tier. loses to hard to projectiles and is too weak offstage. his killing potnential relies on your oppoent tech rolling into him or airdodging out of panic.
i mean even zard is at least scary roy isnt maybe its my bias through my main but roy just seems like hes not anything special

 

[FeelMeUp]

Oh nah I still think Roy is straight trash. He's decent vs floaties and characters that have bad advantage/camping games, but that's not even a quarter of the top tiers.
Zard is better than Roy imo.

 

[LordShade67]

I'm wondering where these sudden changes in opinion are coming from, here. "Charizard has too many options to be bottom 5 despite a scarcity of results" becomes "Charizard is a super underrated mid-high tier", and "Roy got some decent usage from Manny and Ryo" becomes "Roy is secretly a high tier threat". I mean, what?

At least Zard has Sharpy's solo tourney win, though mid-high? I don't see it. Mid-tier sounds about right. Roy is riding exclusively off hype just because Ryo took two games off Abadango and Static things. Neither of whom actually main the character.

Spoiler

Roy doesn't exist in Japan. Why would Aba practice this MU?

 

[Krysco]

Yeah, even though I love Roy, I can maybe see Zard being at the lower end of mid tier. I personally can't see Roy getting out of low tier. Recovery and disadvantage state are way too bad with little to make up for it. To my understanding, his only kill confirms are nair and tipper uair into ftilt or bair. If you're at high percent and you see Roy short hop, I don't see why not to shield. Even if he tomahawks, his uthrow kills way later than his kill confirms. I did see the jab to Blazer on Abadango but that looked incredibly di'able and he did di it the second time iirc.

I see all this talk about Roy not having a main and needing one and have thoughts of being that main but I won't even be going to my first in person tournament until this autumn at best and I have Robin and Mewtwo as well so I may just be another Roy secondary. That and I may never actually get good at this game!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm wondering where these sudden changes in opinion are coming from, here. "Charizard has too many options to be bottom 5 despite a scarcity of results" becomes "Charizard is a super underrated mid-high tier", and "Roy got some decent usage from Manny and Ryo" becomes "Roy is secretly a high tier threat". I mean, what?

1. No one here is saying Charizard's high mid. Only Zero has.
2. EL has been saying Roy is secret high tier for ages and I'm inclined to believe him. Dude has a good track record.

You make a valid point, but it comes off as "stop thinking things I don't think!"

 

[Ninety]

You make a valid point, but it comes off as "stop thinking things I don't think!"

I'm really not sure where you're getting that. I'm asking why the popular opinion in this thread suddenly seemed to shift around with little to support it. You're allowed to have whatever opinion you want to, and I'm equally allowed to question it.

 

[Ffamran]

I mean ...

Charizard has a great jab, can kill out of his awesome grab, has a dthrow -> fair combo, is as heavy as a bus full of fat people and has aerials that can outrange Cloud's. He has a way to consistently gimp Fox - Flamethrower beats side B and forces Fox to recover with upB, which Zard can dair him out of - and has shown himself to do well enough against Mewtwo and Cloud at the very least.

Robin has a projectile that confirms into grab which in turns confirms into a kill at stupid percentages. That makes for a LOT of how awful a character Robin actually is all-around. A kill confirm is pretty much the single most important things to have in a game where you aim to kill your opponent. It's the same reason why an all-around ****ty character like DK can still perform well.

What does Falco have going for him that comes even close to that? I can't think of any truly redeeming traits that Falco has to offer. If his matchup spread was really worse than Zard's or Robin's I wouldn't be surprised in the least and the fact that Zero puts the character a whole tier above Little Mac, Link and Samus just confirms to me that his opinions are not to be taken serious.

No, I meant that if I posted my idea of Falco's MU spread and it was compared with the recently posted (and perhaps optimistic) MU spreads of Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda, Falco's would look like a bottom tier Melee or Brawl character to Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda's looking like Melee and Brawl high tier. Then again, my opinions wouldn't be considered since I'm not competing as of now -- ignoring the fact that my idea of Falco's MU spread would look radical compared to every other MU spread posted by everyone. Come on! Can't a coach be just as important? Anyway, I digress.

Add in that Samus has a ladder combo. Not as potent or reliable as Bayonetta, Meta Knight, or ZSS's ladders, pre- or post-patch, due to how her Uair works and Screw Attack being purely vertical, but still useful. If anything, Samus's Uair is kind of like a post-1.1.6 Witch Twist. Samus doesn't really need to just end with a vertical finisher as she can end with Nair, Fair, and Bair, horizontal finishers. Vertically, though, it would be "better" because of how close she would be to the blast zone and the fact Screw Attack would drag her opponent up. Samus also has a nice ledge-game through Bombs, a much better recovery, especially since she can weave about with Bomb, and her ledge-trump is probably more reliable considering her Bair's much longer reach -- that also lends to it being more versatile as a spacing option.

Zelda having access to 2 kill set-ups despite how strict they can be is still a good thing. Also, not having to deal with almost the same physics as another character is helpful. What works on Zelda might not work someone else. What works on Fox or any fast faller will probably work on Falco and be pretty much worse considering his lack of options to escape or interrupt compared to them.

In the end, all four of those characters mentioned have something Falco doesn't have: a game plan. Basic gameplay can only take you so far without any sort of edge to back it up. In time, without any significant changes to Falco, I see him dropping to bottom 3 at least. Ganondorf's kind of simple, but at the same time, he backs up his simplistic game plan with high damage and a typical grappler's mix-ups. Zangief, anyone? You can't say the same with Falco. Charizard backs up basic gameplay with high weight for endurance, possibly the best neutral game out of the juggernauts, Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and Triple D, through Charizard's ability to space and zone well, and as always, high ground speed helps; Robin and Samus back up their basic gameplay with typical zoning -- Robin mostly through projectiles rather than natural disjoints to Samus's mostly disjoints, Zair, than projectiles --, and something unique for them: for Robin, high-powered, well-ranged aerials and a simple kill set-up and Samus through her combo and follow-up ability and off-stage and ledge play; and Zelda as bad as people make her out to be, still has something: 2 kill set-ups, a reckless approach stuffer, Nayru's Love, and while it limits her aerials, the strongest aerial punishes in the game through Fair and Bair, but also through a 17% Uair and a Dair that can spike with its late hit.

Spoiler: Babble

Right now, I think Falco's biggest problem is the fact he's in this game or rather, he keeps appearing in games without being tweaked properly. A lot of characters were ported over which considering the roster size makes sense. While it was started bad for some characters like Marth, it's pretty much fine since none of them had major issues to begin with. By major issues, I mean they didn't debut in Smash being a conceptually broken character. For example, Fox and Meta Knight did not debut being conceptually broken; Fox had one broken option in 64, Blaster, and both were over-tuned in Melee for Fox and Brawl for Meta Knight. Falco on the other hand debuted with 5 broken options: Dair, Blaster, Falco Phantasm, Shine, and arguably, his Melee Side Smash. Who in their right mind decided that a frame 5 spike with that many active frames is okay when others have at least +10 spikes? Not even Marth's had that many active frames. Blaster, the transcendent, low recovery, infinite range, able to be continually fired with fairly fast rate of fire projectile, the largest spike in the game that was pretty much a straight upgrade to Fox Illusion, especially in Brawl, Shine which I'd even argue wasn't as broken as the previous moves, and a frame 13, 5 active clean 17% hit, 5 active 14% late hit, and 19 recovery frame Side Smash. There's also the fact with his fall speed, he pretty much died like a heavyweight to vertical kills. Oh, but he's easily gimped and his recovery sucks. Melee Falco was Cloud and Little Mac on steroids. This is also the same character who debuted with the dumbest sour-spots. 2 moves, Down Smash and Uair, but they were carried over into Smash 4. Sure, let's have the upper legs send people up 80 degrees. Meanwhile, Fox's sour-spots send at 361 degrees. Rare to hit; stupid when it happens. Uair had a Zelda sour-spot on the body hit. Why? I don't know. Apparently his Uair was too powerful. Even if it was there to "balance" out Falco's high jump, the fact you were up there to begin with should probably get you killed by anyone.

Ported over, Wolf would probably been a better character. What's Wolf really got that was conceptually broken or "bad"? 60 meteor frame cancel? Doesn't matter since meteor canceling doesn't exist in Smash 4 to my knowledge. 5.556% increase to his fall speed? It would be crazy if that was kept, but at worse, he could have something like Ryu's 40% which is still much better. Fire Wolf and Wolf Flash's ledge sweet-spot issues? Easily fixed. He'd definitely have stuff like Bair and Reflector toned down, but that's it. Wolf doesn't really have anything that would need major work. Wolf in Smash 4, even if he was a bottom tier, would have more merit. He'd at least have a game plan.

Falco being ported over game to game only creates more problems as the developers would port over conceptually broken options and not as bad, but just strange details to his moves. For the latter, it's easily fixable like simple angle changes. For the former, they might need to be overhauled. It also creates a problem of "it's not Falco". Since things are retained from game to game, it creates a feeling what should have been regardless if people chose to ignore or acknowledge that those options were blatantly broken. For example, if Dair was overhauled into Iori's Geshiki: Yuriori making it a cross-up Dair and essentially a second Bair or if it became Akuma's Tenmakujinkyaku making it a dive kick if tuned right, then you can't really compare either of those to his Melee / Brawl Dair. They're just different moves now that have different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, doing that could lead to issues like Falco's Dtilt right now is a weird hybrid of Melee Falco's Dtilt through its sweet-spot and (Melee) Fox's through the range and weaker knockback (the sour-spots). Or something like Falco's Bair in animation looks like Wolf's, but it works differently. It's pure offense as it lacks Wolf's range. Falco's Bair also carries over his old Bair's late hit which is kind of unnecessary since it's not really a lingering aerial anymore. Had Falco's Bair been say, a fast back hand swipe with his right hand a clean hit followed by a forehand swipe with his right hand for the late hit -- something like 4-5 clean hit and 6-9 late hit --, so kind of like a Captain Falcon Bair, but more of a slash like Ike's Bair, it would not only function as a different move, but also look like a different move that you couldn't compare with his old Bair, definitely Wolf's Bair, or Capt. or Ike's Bair. Anyway, I digress as usual...

Yes true but not the mobility for and with a 8 frame standing grab and a 10 frame dash grab he's risking his butt especially Bayo can up b if the distance and/ or timing isnt right. He does have a projectile but a near full second of end lag and Bayo can crouch and side b under it or dABK it doesn't help outside of tick percent.

Couldn't Bayonetta also Witch Time his laser on reaction? Projectiles are affected by Witch Time.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm asking why the popular opinion in this thread suddenly seemed to shift around with little to support it.

Because no one outside of fringe groups is saying it.

It's not the popular opinion whatsoever and the way you phrased it never implied that's what you meant.

You didn't take issue with the majority. You took issue with a couple of people.

 

[Gamegenie222]

No, I meant that if I posted my idea of Falco's MU spread and it was compared with the recently posted (and perhaps optimistic) MU spreads of Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda, Falco's would look like a bottom tier Melee or Brawl character to Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda's looking like Melee and Brawl high tier. Then again, my opinions wouldn't be considered since I'm not competing as of now -- ignoring the fact that my idea of Falco's MU spread would look radical compared to every other MU spread posted by everyone. Come on! Can't a coach be just as important? Anyway, I digress.

Add in that Samus has a ladder combo. Not as potent or reliable as Bayonetta, Meta Knight, or ZSS's ladders, pre- or post-patch, due to how her Uair works and Screw Attack being purely vertical, but still useful. If anything, Samus's Uair is kind of like a post-1.1.6 Witch Twist. Samus doesn't really need to just end with a vertical finisher as she can end with Nair, Fair, and Bair, horizontal finishers. Vertically, though, it would be "better" because of how close she would be to the blast zone and the fact Screw Attack would drag her opponent up. Samus also has a nice ledge-game through Bombs, a much better recovery, especially since she can weave about with Bomb, and her ledge-trump is probably more reliable considering her Bair's much longer reach -- that also lends to it being more versatile as a spacing option.

Zelda having access to 2 kill set-ups despite how strict they can be is still a good thing. Also, not having to deal with almost the same physics as another character is helpful. What works on Zelda might not work someone else. What works on Fox or any fast faller will probably work on Falco and be pretty much worse considering his lack of options to escape or interrupt compared to them.

In the end, all four of those characters mentioned have something Falco doesn't have: a game plan. Basic gameplay can only take you so far without any sort of edge to back it up. In time, without any significant changes to Falco, I see him dropping to bottom 3 at least. Ganondorf's kind of simple, but at the same time, he backs up his simplistic game plan with high damage and a typical grappler's mix-ups. Zangief, anyone? You can't say the same with Falco. Charizard backs up basic gameplay with high weight for endurance, possibly the best neutral game out of the juggernauts, Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and Triple D, through Charizard's ability to space and zone well, and as always, high ground speed helps; Robin and Samus back up their basic gameplay with typical zoning -- Robin mostly through projectiles rather than natural disjoints to Samus's mostly disjoints, Zair, than projectiles --, and something unique for them: for Robin, high-powered, well-ranged aerials and a simple kill set-up and Samus through her combo and follow-up ability and off-stage and ledge play; and Zelda as bad as people make her out to be, still has something: 2 kill set-ups, a reckless approach stuffer, Nayru's Love, and while it limits her aerials, the strongest aerial punishes in the game through Fair and Bair, but also through a 17% Uair and a Dair that can spike with its late hit.

Spoiler: Babble

Right now, I think Falco's biggest problem is the fact he's in this game or rather, he keeps appearing in games without being tweaked properly. A lot of characters were ported over which considering the roster size makes sense. While it was started bad for some characters like Marth, it's pretty much fine since none of them had major issues to begin with. By major issues, I mean they didn't debut in Smash being a conceptually broken character. For example, Fox and Meta Knight did not debut being conceptually broken; Fox had one broken option in 64, Blaster, and both were over-tuned in Melee for Fox and Brawl for Meta Knight. Falco on the other hand debuted with 5 broken options: Dair, Blaster, Falco Phantasm, Shine, and arguably, his Melee Side Smash. Who in their right mind decided that a frame 5 spike with that many active frames is okay when others have at least +10 spikes? Not even Marth's had that many active frames. Blaster, the transcendent, low recovery, infinite range, able to be continually fired with fairly fast rate of fire projectile, the largest spike in the game that was pretty much a straight upgrade to Fox Illusion, especially in Brawl, Shine which I'd even argue wasn't as broken as the previous moves, and a frame 13, 5 active clean 17% hit, 5 active 14% late hit, and 19 recovery frame Side Smash. There's also the fact with his fall speed, he pretty much died like a heavyweight to vertical kills. Oh, but he's easily gimped and his recovery sucks. Melee Falco was Cloud and Little Mac on steroids. This is also the same character who debuted with the dumbest sour-spots. 2 moves, Down Smash and Uair, but they were carried over into Smash 4. Sure, let's have the upper legs send people up 80 degrees. Meanwhile, Fox's sour-spots send at 361 degrees. Rare to hit; stupid when it happens. Uair had a Zelda sour-spot on the body hit. Why? I don't know. Apparently his Uair was too powerful. Even if it was there to "balance" out Falco's high jump, the fact you were up there to begin with should probably get you killed by anyone.

Ported over, Wolf would probably been a better character. What's Wolf really got that was conceptually broken or "bad"? 60 meteor frame cancel? Doesn't matter since meteor canceling doesn't exist in Smash 4 to my knowledge. 5.556% increase to his fall speed? It would be crazy if that was kept, but at worse, he could have something like Ryu's 40% which is still much better. Fire Wolf and Wolf Flash's ledge sweet-spot issues? Easily fixed. He'd definitely have stuff like Bair and Reflector toned down, but that's it. Wolf doesn't really have anything that would need major work. Wolf in Smash 4, even if he was a bottom tier, would have more merit. He'd at least have a game plan.

Falco being ported over game to game only creates more problems as the developers would port over conceptually broken options and not as bad, but just strange details to his moves. For the latter, it's easily fixable like simple angle changes. For the former, they might need to be overhauled. It also creates a problem of "it's not Falco". Since things are retained from game to game, it creates a feeling what should have been regardless if people chose to ignore or acknowledge that those options were blatantly broken. For example, if Dair was overhauled into Iori's Geshiki: Yuriori making it a cross-up Dair and essentially a second Bair or if it became Akuma's Tenmakujinkyaku making it a dive kick if tuned right, then you can't really compare either of those to his Melee / Brawl Dair. They're just different moves now that have different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, doing that could lead to issues like Falco's Dtilt right now is a weird hybrid of Melee Falco's Dtilt through its sweet-spot and (Melee) Fox's through the range and weaker knockback (the sour-spots). Or something like Falco's Bair in animation looks like Wolf's, but it works differently. It's pure offense as it lacks Wolf's range. Falco's Bair also carries over his old Bair's late hit which is kind of unnecessary since it's not really a lingering aerial anymore. Had Falco's Bair been say, a fast back hand swipe with his right hand a clean hit followed by a forehand swipe with his right hand for the late hit -- something like 4-5 clean hit and 6-9 late hit --, so kind of like a Captain Falcon Bair, but more of a slash like Ike's Bair, it would not only function as a different move, but also look like a different move that you couldn't compare with his old Bair, definitely Wolf's Bair, or Capt. or Ike's Bair. Anyway, I digress as usual...

Couldn't Bayonetta also Witch Time his laser on reaction? Projectiles are affected by Witch Time.

Yes Bayo can but the projectile user will only be affected by WT within a certain range and Falco not gonna use a laser in those said ranges cause he dont wanna get punished or as hard.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Let's be reasonable again for a moment, guys.

Roy is not actually a good character. Is he better than a lot of people think? Maybe. But he's not a secret high tier or something. His neutral is not amazing. Dtilt and nair are not amazing moves. **** has like zero reward. His sideB is broken af though.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

dath is good and robin is still not great.
i don't see anything new being brought to the table.

 

[Ninety]

REPENT YE UNBELIEVERS

 

[Krysco]

No, I meant that if I posted my idea of Falco's MU spread and it was compared with the recently posted (and perhaps optimistic) MU spreads of Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda, Falco's would look like a bottom tier Melee or Brawl character to Charizard, Robin, Samus, and Zelda's looking like Melee and Brawl high tier. Then again, my opinions wouldn't be considered since I'm not competing as of now -- ignoring the fact that my idea of Falco's MU spread would look radical compared to every other MU spread posted by everyone. Come on! Can't a coach be just as important? Anyway, I digress.

Add in that Samus has a ladder combo. Not as potent or reliable as Bayonetta, Meta Knight, or ZSS's ladders, pre- or post-patch, due to how her Uair works and Screw Attack being purely vertical, but still useful. If anything, Samus's Uair is kind of like a post-1.1.6 Witch Twist. Samus doesn't really need to just end with a vertical finisher as she can end with Nair, Fair, and Bair, horizontal finishers. Vertically, though, it would be "better" because of how close she would be to the blast zone and the fact Screw Attack would drag her opponent up. Samus also has a nice ledge-game through Bombs, a much better recovery, especially since she can weave about with Bomb, and her ledge-trump is probably more reliable considering her Bair's much longer reach -- that also lends to it being more versatile as a spacing option.

Zelda having access to 2 kill set-ups despite how strict they can be is still a good thing. Also, not having to deal with almost the same physics as another character is helpful. What works on Zelda might not work someone else. What works on Fox or any fast faller will probably work on Falco and be pretty much worse considering his lack of options to escape or interrupt compared to them.

In the end, all four of those characters mentioned have something Falco doesn't have: a game plan. Basic gameplay can only take you so far without any sort of edge to back it up. In time, without any significant changes to Falco, I see him dropping to bottom 3 at least. Ganondorf's kind of simple, but at the same time, he backs up his simplistic game plan with high damage and a typical grappler's mix-ups. Zangief, anyone? You can't say the same with Falco. Charizard backs up basic gameplay with high weight for endurance, possibly the best neutral game out of the juggernauts, Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, and Triple D, through Charizard's ability to space and zone well, and as always, high ground speed helps; Robin and Samus back up their basic gameplay with typical zoning -- Robin mostly through projectiles rather than natural disjoints to Samus's mostly disjoints, Zair, than projectiles --, and something unique for them: for Robin, high-powered, well-ranged aerials and a simple kill set-up and Samus through her combo and follow-up ability and off-stage and ledge play; and Zelda as bad as people make her out to be, still has something: 2 kill set-ups, a reckless approach stuffer, Nayru's Love, and while it limits her aerials, the strongest aerial punishes in the game through Fair and Bair, but also through a 17% Uair and a Dair that can spike with its late hit.

Spoiler: Babble

Right now, I think Falco's biggest problem is the fact he's in this game or rather, he keeps appearing in games without being tweaked properly. A lot of characters were ported over which considering the roster size makes sense. While it was started bad for some characters like Marth, it's pretty much fine since none of them had major issues to begin with. By major issues, I mean they didn't debut in Smash being a conceptually broken character. For example, Fox and Meta Knight did not debut being conceptually broken; Fox had one broken option in 64, Blaster, and both were over-tuned in Melee for Fox and Brawl for Meta Knight. Falco on the other hand debuted with 5 broken options: Dair, Blaster, Falco Phantasm, Shine, and arguably, his Melee Side Smash. Who in their right mind decided that a frame 5 spike with that many active frames is okay when others have at least +10 spikes? Not even Marth's had that many active frames. Blaster, the transcendent, low recovery, infinite range, able to be continually fired with fairly fast rate of fire projectile, the largest spike in the game that was pretty much a straight upgrade to Fox Illusion, especially in Brawl, Shine which I'd even argue wasn't as broken as the previous moves, and a frame 13, 5 active clean 17% hit, 5 active 14% late hit, and 19 recovery frame Side Smash. There's also the fact with his fall speed, he pretty much died like a heavyweight to vertical kills. Oh, but he's easily gimped and his recovery sucks. Melee Falco was Cloud and Little Mac on steroids. This is also the same character who debuted with the dumbest sour-spots. 2 moves, Down Smash and Uair, but they were carried over into Smash 4. Sure, let's have the upper legs send people up 80 degrees. Meanwhile, Fox's sour-spots send at 361 degrees. Rare to hit; stupid when it happens. Uair had a Zelda sour-spot on the body hit. Why? I don't know. Apparently his Uair was too powerful. Even if it was there to "balance" out Falco's high jump, the fact you were up there to begin with should probably get you killed by anyone.

Ported over, Wolf would probably been a better character. What's Wolf really got that was conceptually broken or "bad"? 60 meteor frame cancel? Doesn't matter since meteor canceling doesn't exist in Smash 4 to my knowledge. 5.556% increase to his fall speed? It would be crazy if that was kept, but at worse, he could have something like Ryu's 40% which is still much better. Fire Wolf and Wolf Flash's ledge sweet-spot issues? Easily fixed. He'd definitely have stuff like Bair and Reflector toned down, but that's it. Wolf doesn't really have anything that would need major work. Wolf in Smash 4, even if he was a bottom tier, would have more merit. He'd at least have a game plan.

Falco being ported over game to game only creates more problems as the developers would port over conceptually broken options and not as bad, but just strange details to his moves. For the latter, it's easily fixable like simple angle changes. For the former, they might need to be overhauled. It also creates a problem of "it's not Falco". Since things are retained from game to game, it creates a feeling what should have been regardless if people chose to ignore or acknowledge that those options were blatantly broken. For example, if Dair was overhauled into Iori's Geshiki: Yuriori making it a cross-up Dair and essentially a second Bair or if it became Akuma's Tenmakujinkyaku making it a dive kick if tuned right, then you can't really compare either of those to his Melee / Brawl Dair. They're just different moves now that have different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, doing that could lead to issues like Falco's Dtilt right now is a weird hybrid of Melee Falco's Dtilt through its sweet-spot and (Melee) Fox's through the range and weaker knockback (the sour-spots). Or something like Falco's Bair in animation looks like Wolf's, but it works differently. It's pure offense as it lacks Wolf's range. Falco's Bair also carries over his old Bair's late hit which is kind of unnecessary since it's not really a lingering aerial anymore. Had Falco's Bair been say, a fast back hand swipe with his right hand a clean hit followed by a forehand swipe with his right hand for the late hit -- something like 4-5 clean hit and 6-9 late hit --, so kind of like a Captain Falcon Bair, but more of a slash like Ike's Bair, it would not only function as a different move, but also look like a different move that you couldn't compare with his old Bair, definitely Wolf's Bair, or Capt. or Ike's Bair. Anyway, I digress as usual...

Couldn't Bayonetta also Witch Time his laser on reaction? Projectiles are affected by Witch Time.

I love reading your posts but man, you make me wish even more that Wolf was in this game. I swear, that's the only reason I ever even picked up Falco in this game, he's the closest thing to Wolf outside of custom Fox and Mii Swordfighter and even then, none of them have his air speed. Took me nearly 2 years to have a consistent main and secondaries in this game because of the lack of Wolf. And what do you mean when you say that his reflector would have been toned down? I know bair would have been, that move was crazy but shine?

 

[Laken64]

Not yet...

Soon though. All we need is a Roy Main, and not a Roy Secondary.

I've seen Static alternate between the two constantly in tourneys but I see what you mean (stand alone Roy main)

Let's be reasonable again for a moment, guys.

Roy is not actually a good character. Is he better than a lot of people think? Maybe. But he's not a secret high tier or something. His neutral is not amazing. Dtilt and nair are not amazing moves. **** has like zero reward. His sideB is broken af though.

I believe he's low mid at best, his grounded game, decent combo game off of grabs and his mini smash smash attacks called "tilts" (Forward and up tilt) put him above the rest of low tier characters imo.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

IT means Robin is a decent character and whoever says Robin is low tier I laugh at them.

 

[Nah]

Robin's been a decent character since 1.10. People just don't see Robin play much so when they see Dath or someone good do anything sometimes you get reactions like Family Team's.

Character is not secret high tier though, never will be.

 

[Zionaze]

So are we just gunna ignore falco winning a 400+ man tournament

 

[FamilyTeam]

Robin's been a decent character since 1.10. People just don't see Robin play much so when they see Dath or someone good do anything sometimes you get reactions like Family Team's.

Character is not secret high tier though, never will be.

Of course I was surprised.
I'll just say right now I always loved Robin both as a character in Awakening and Smash for almost a year now so I'm not in some "bandwagon".

 

[Cutie Gwen]

To people who say Robin is bad. Did Abadango carry Mewtwo at Pound? If no, shut yo face about Dath carrying Robin

 

[PK Gaming]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

Robin's strengths are really good
But his weaknesses are really severe

Super polarizing character

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I mean, my definition of great would be like, Bayonetta and above character wise. Robin is still a good character, and they COULD be better than Ike. She benefits greatly from rage(so does Ike, i know) as demonstrated by many of Dath's sets at Shine, and checkmate is something you have to be aware about the entire game. However, Esam did show Robins weakness, like being edge guarded, etc. I would write more but i just wanna see what everyone elses thoughts are first before I do a big long comment lol.

 

[SaltyKracka]

So are we just gunna ignore falco winning a 400+ man tournament

AC regularly ends up in the finals of the local tournaments against Falln, and sometimes manages to win.

He's one of our SD sharks, and him taking an Arcadian is not actually anything like special, even if he was using the bird for most of it.

 

[Laken64]

Robin's strengths are really good
But his weaknesses are really severe

Super polarizing character

Dealing with his weapon use isn't that bad since he can use them as KO tools and Robin's character is all about micromanagement. But like you said having the slowest speed in the game, poor ledge options and the fact his recovery can RUN OUT can kill him in the long run especially from what we've seen Esam and ZeRo do to him today.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So are we just gunna ignore falco winning a 400+ man tournament

Yes and no. He went Majority Marth and MK that tourney and that was a arcadian tourney to top of it there was weird instances that he was supposed to be banned but wasnt' cause different PR's and all that jazz.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

Dath did really well in Shine but there are a few things that I would note. True Blue is a Sonic main who I'm fairly certain practices with Dath pretty often so Dath should definitely have MU knowledge there helping him be the Sonic slayer he was this weekend.
Conversely, I don't think many people can really say they have much of any MU experience vs Robin but I don't know where 6WX and SuperGirlKels stand on that.

Watching Larry vs Dath was a bit painful though from the perspective of someone who played Fox for a long time and have a Robin as a practice partner because Larry didn't seem versed in the MU at all. He really faltered at times to go in or not and kept running into active Arcfires and blocking the full thing or using Illusion to go right into them and I couldn't understand why among other questionable decisions.

It became very apparent to me that Larry was desperate at points going for options such as raw up smash and unsafe nair on block (even in game 1) Between Fox's amazing grounded movement and shine and lasers and devastating combos, I can't really see why Larry played the way he did at times when a slow patient Fox can make the MU incredibly painful for Robin as he abuses Robin's weaknesses perfectly if you know what to look out for.

In Zero vs Dath, I was honestly just really impressed by how well Zero traps at ledge because that's just fantastic play from him as a whole. Seriously just look at this clip and a large chunk of the game on Lylat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiUrUvo1OoQ&t=1m12s

Can't comment on Dath vs Esam because haven't seen yet
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Robin has good zoning and kill power, but **** mobility and recovery. He can muscle through tough matchups and punish very well but his disadvantaged state is bad and he gets gimped rather easily.

Because of these flaws he theoretically struggles against a lot of fast combo-heavy characters, but he made it pretty far despite this apparent setback. Who would a good secondary for Robin be?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Let's be reasonable again for a moment, guys.

Roy is not actually a good character. Is he better than a lot of people think? Maybe. But he's not a secret high tier or something. His neutral is not amazing. Dtilt and nair are not amazing moves. **** has like zero reward. His sideB is broken af though.

How do D-tilt and Nair not have any reward? D-tilt can setup into DED / Grab 50 / 50s at low percents while creating tech situations at higher percent (IIRC it can setup up into an untechable situation into Dash Attack) while nair can combo into Fair and more Nairs as well as setting up into blazer / down smash at higher percents (only if you land the first hit). And even if you don't combo into any of these moves its still dealing a solid 14%.

 

[Mr. Johan]

This was definitely a tournament where no one was anticipating a Robin to interfere in their climb up the bracket. Kels and 6WX have no Robins near them, I don't think Larry Lurr and Giga Athena are in the same part of the state, and I doubt Marss has as much luck either. This was a bracket that Dath was primed to tear through.

Not taking anything from Dath though. He played superbly in neutral and was quick to remind people, why yes, these moves do autocancel like that, and just played the matchups in a methodical fashion. It was only against ESAM, a fellow Floridan, and ZeRo, Diddy is Diddy, where it began to falter.

 

[Goombo]

Who would a good secondary for Robin be?

Mewtwo would be the first character coming to mind who is able to deal with the really bad matchups like Mario, Pikachu or ZSS (which now got won two times for Robin on top level for some weird reason, doesn't stop the MU from being awful).
If you want a non top tier character Greninja is an interesting choice, also from the Greninja side of view since Robin does not too bad in the Sheik and Sonic matchups.

 

[Yoshister]

So Esam made 2nd at Shine 2016.

What's our thoughts on now?

 

[EternalFlare]

So Esam made 2nd at Shine 2016.

What's our thoughts on now?

Repeating what I said earlier:

Esam would have to continue to show strong performances at future majors. If he at the very least starts consistently making top 16, then there would be a strong case for Pikachu being top 15 results wise.

As of now characters like Megaman,Villager, Marth and Toon Link have shown much stronger performances at much more stacked tournaments. Megaman got 2nd at Evo, 4th at Umebara, 5th at SSC, top 16 at CEO and regurly does well in Japan. Villager also does well in Japan and got 3rd at G3 and 5th at Evo. These two particular characters are ranked worse than Pika on the tier list despite having these amazing results that are far better than anything Pika has managed even if Esam were to win this tournament which isn't very stacked for a major.

In other words consistency is needed at big events, not just one big win. Pit isn't top 15 because Earth got 9th at Evo. And let's not forget Robin at worst is going to get 5th at this tournament as well, is he suddenly high tier because of it?

After all, one strong performance could just mean a lucky bracket or the reliance on gimmicks (tactics that only work due to MU inexperience). So it's important not to jump the gun, especially in a game as volatile as Smash 4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We live in the age of online gaming.

MU inexperience is not an excuse in 2016.

You lose to a char you don't know how to fight you deserve to lose because you are foolish and weak.

 

[Kofu]

Can we talk about Robin?
Seriously, I can't believe what I am seeing right now.
What could this mean?

Robin players (Dath, Johan, and formerly Raziek, I think Mr. II too) have been getting decent results for a while now.

The character isn't bad at all.

 

[Laken64]

How do D-tilt and Nair not have any reward? D-tilt can setup into DED / Grab 50 / 50s at low percents while creating tech situations at higher percent (IIRC it can setup up into an untechable situation into Dash Attack) while nair can combo into Fair and more Nairs as well as setting up into blazer / down smash at higher percents (only if you land the first hit). And even if you don't combo into any of these moves its still dealing a solid 14%.

Nair 1 can also confirm into ftilt, utilt, Fsmash and Usmash (both smashes you have to buffer I believe)

 

[Asdioh]

Pikachu looks the same as I thought about him since a really long time ago: Very strong in a lot of aspects, but really blatantly struggles to kill. He has the strengths/weaknesses that people claimed Sheik to have ages ago, except the weakness is actually true.