Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

TDK

Yeah, there are quite a few characters that get crazier stuff off of footstools than mega man.

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=NLMb4muwyL0
https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=_U1bNO8dTgE


The universal punish game OoS just got a hell of a lot scarier.

Pit's got some crazy stuff as well... Even something simple is still pretty damaging, like Dair > Dair > Uair for 30%. I'm no expert though, so I'll let ReRaze explain if he wants.

 

[TDK]

Pit's got some crazy stuff as well... Even something simple is still pretty damaging, like Dair > Dair > Uair for 30%. I'm no expert though, so I'll let ReRaze explain if he wants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfoTUbL6CNQ&list=PLp-1erL0_ll25oeqkp82K9KXUNA_lJA4c&index=22

While it's not a crazy death combo, 0 to 57 is no joke.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

https://youtu.be/qfjw5DygdPU?t=15m9s

Ike has a 0-86% combo.

That's the sad thing about footstool combos: all look cool and can go to really high percents... rarely practical.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Any other thoughts on Peach's metagame? I know she may have a lackluster approach kit, but we have seen crazy edgeguards from her nowadays.

I shared my thoughts of her metagame in this video.

 

[Das Koopa]

"International Week", AKA End of Summer of Smash results;

Spoiler: Shine 2016 (August 26th-28th) (New England) (483 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: ESAM
3rd: Dath
4th: 6WX
5th: Mew2King
5th: Larry Lurr
7th: Craftis (Sonic)
7th: Marss
9th: StaticManny ,
9th: Xorn
9th: Mr. E
9th: Dyr
13th: JJROCKETS
13th: LingLing
13th: SuperGirlKels
13th: Z ,

Spoiler: Sumabato 12 (August 27th) (Japan) (184 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Komorikiri ,
2nd: Ron ,
3rd: HIKARU
4th: Earth
5th: Oishiitofu
5th: OCEAN
7th: Ri-Ma
7th: Shogun
9th: MASA
9th: Rizeasu
9th: 9B
9th: Ikep
13th: You3
13th: Kiosk
13th: Take
13th: Zaki

Spoiler: OzHadou Nationals 14 (August 26th-27th) (Australia) (140 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Extra ,
2nd: NVO|Ghost,
3rd: Luco ,
4th: Revax
5th: Waveguider ,
5th: SaucyDancer
7th: Boozer
7th: Duon ,
9th: Quen
9th: Ignis ,
9th: Scott
9th: Seymour Butts
13th: Linoone
13th: Kira
13th: Jdizzle
13th: Vasi

Spoiler: Alberta Beat Down 2016 (August 26th-28th) (Canada) (146 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Blacktwins ,
2nd: 2manyCooks ,
3rd: Exodia
4th: Alphicans ,
5th: Nurse
5th: Focus
7th: aMac ,
7th: V115
9th: Captain L
9th: KillLock
9th: DaddyKins
9th: Conut
13th: Jimbo
13th: Neki
13th: Ed
13th: Jams

Spoiler: Capital City Smash #4 (August 27th) (Canada) (107 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Jpeds
2nd: Holy
3rd: Deathorse
4th: QB
5th: BreaD
5th: Mr. Gommi
7th: Canada Man
7th: Excalibur
9th: DooM ,
9th: SilveR
9th: KingKong
9th: Yonks
13th: Luffy
13th: HoH Dunston ,
13th: Nimious
13th: Soru

Spoiler: Super SmashNest v10 (August 27th) (Pacific Northwest) (99 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Caocogen
2nd: Konga
3rd: Justice
4th: Braixen
5th: Mr. Gentleman ,
5th: Viviff the Great ,
7th: MaTA
7th: Churro
9th: G~Man, the Cosmic Destroyer
9th: CrimZ
9th: FedVsRafa
9th: Shinkou
13th: BroBear
13th: TrueMain
13th: MeowMC ,
13th: Nikki

Spoiler: Battery Basement 6 (August 27th) (Rocky Mountain) (86 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: BANG!
2nd: JFK
3rd: Ghey
4th: Jesus
5th: Detta
5th: SSB100
7th: Miiself
7th: Fishbait
9th: Ludi
9th: 4G|Nero
9th: LiveWithDave
9th: Brax
13th: Avian
13th: Haku
13th: GenericRhyme
13th: Samfish

Spoiler: DAT Blastzone 14 (August 27th) (United Kingdom) (87 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: iStudying
2nd: Aperture
3rd: Griffith ,
4th: Shido
5th: Khanage
5th: Plastic Poptart
7th: KEIKUNz
7th: Badr ,
9th: G~P
9th: Gregs
9th: J. Miller
9th: SevereCalamari
13th: LuigiMitsu
13th: Critical ,
13th: SilentDoom
13th: Deon

Spoiler: Astra 2016 (August 26th-28th) (Colombia) (115 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: 8A
2nd: Axl-4J
3rd: Dabrezz
4th: Adram
5th: Nestor
5th: Sky
7th: Nary
7th: Maurox
9th: Anderson
9th: Clokke
9th: Silver
9th: HRP/Mighty
13th: Chuck
13th: POL
13th: JoKeR
13th: Varo

-I'll let Yikarur handle Battalion's results for now, I'll catalog them later if he doesn't post them
-3S!! Salty Runback was unfeasible to catalog.
-Low confidence on the accuracy of Astra's results, some mixed confidence on areas in DAT Blastzone. I otherwise tried to skim streams to be accurate.
-The only character lacking any results on my database in a near-half year period is Mii Swordfighter. Every other character in the game has placed in a qualifying top 16 at least once, including Mii Gunner (Flama) and Mii Brawler (Yikarur, various others).

 

[FamilyTeam]

-The only character lacking any results on my database in a near-half year period is Mii Swordfighter. Every other character in the game has placed in a qualifying top 16 at least once, including Mii Gunner (Flama) and Mii Brawler (Yikarur, various others).

Wait, even Lucie? When did she do that?
Also, Dark.Pch , I always really like your posts! I always like seeing you around here.

 

[EternalFlare]

Can we talk about Ness?

Ness doesn't have the results to be considered top 15 anymore. And I don't see how he's top 15 on paper either.

His neutral is average at best. He has a high risk/low reward projectile (you can often DI out of it before he can grab you) so it can't be relied on much. His has some great aerials but they don't have a ton of range and his overall mobility isn't that great either.

He has a poor disadvantage state with one of the most exploitable recoveries and mediocre landing options. His only landing mixup is attack or not. He can't safely shift momentum or threaten with disjoints like so many other characters can.

His combo game isn't that great either. People have realized you can simply DI in after down throw and then his extended fair strings into edge guarding no longer works. At most he gets one up air, sometimes not even that.

So the only aspect he excels at is reliable and early kill power. And I don't think that's enough to keep him in high tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

Wait, even Lucie? When did she do that?
Also, Dark.Pch , I always really like your posts! I always like seeing you around here.

Shinkou and Xaltis used her as a secondary

Komo did too one time but I should probably scratch that off since it appeared to be a sandbag

 

[ぱみゅ]

Shinkou and Xaltis used her as a secondary

Komo did too one time but I should probably scratch that off since it appeared to be a sandbag

Komorikiri's Lucina is pretty legit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWLlx_q7EgY
(don't confuse a bad matchup with him playing poorly, and don't say songn's misplaced Dair is the only reason he lost).

And afaik, he uses her as a secondary against Cloud.

 

[HoSmash4]

Das Koopa for Dat Blastzone griffith used lucario (won set w/lucario 100%) and zss as well, Plastic poptart used Pit. Iirc critical is solo fox and silentdoom used zard as well

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can we talk about Ness?

Lucas is better than Ness.

 

[TDK]

9th: Conut

Is this Puff's weekend? Between this and LeeT...

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ness sucks. Case closed.
Godlike killthrow, simple combos, ridiculous comeback potential vs bad characters and a neutral/juggle game that plays itself are the only things keeping this character alive.

 

[Joey T.]

Lucas is better than Ness.

Why do you think so? The only thing that instantly comes to mind is recovery, but is there really more than that?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Komorikiri's Lucina is pretty legit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWLlx_q7EgY
(don't confuse a bad matchup with him playing poorly, and don't say songn's misplaced Dair is the only reason he lost).

And afaik, he uses her as a secondary against Cloud.

I saw his Lucina.
Scary indeed, I wish I could play to his level...

 

[Funen1]

Can we talk about Ness?

Ness doesn't have the results to be considered top 15 anymore. And I don't see how he's top 15 on paper either.

His neutral is average at best. He has a high risk/low reward projectile (you can often DI out of it before he can grab you) so it can't be relied on much. His has some great aerials but they don't have a ton of range and his overall mobility isn't that great either.

He has a poor disadvantage state with one of the most exploitable recoveries and mediocre landing options. His only landing mixup is attack or not. He can't safely shift momentum or threaten with disjoints like so many other characters can.

His combo game isn't that great either. People have realized you can simply DI in after down throw and then his extended fair strings into edge guarding no longer works. At most he gets one up air, sometimes not even that.

So the only aspect he excels at is reliable and early kill power. And I don't think that's enough to keep him in high tier.

To be fair, he's #16 on the tier list now, so him not being top 15 anymore isn't exactly news lol.

I'll give you his neutral game and disadvantage state, though I'd argue PK Fire isn't something you should be using much in neutral anyway. The thing I disagree the most on is his combo game. I mentioned in the previous CCI thread that if the opponent DIs D-throw in, Ness can instead fade back slightly to get F-air to connect properly - U-air isn't the only option here. Heck, even when the opponent starts getting into mid-percents (when you can't get multiple aerials anymore anyway), U-air is still a suitable option because of its good damage (20+% if you include at least one pummel and D-throw) and ability to set up a juggle. Also, Ness' combo game doesn't just come from D-throw - dash attack, U-tilt, and falling U-air can all lead to aerial followups at different percents, and once again set up juggles. Ness' advantage state is still really good beyond just edge-guarding, which you'd sort of expect from someone with a "half-grappler" designation.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Why do you think so? The only thing that instantly comes to mind is recovery, but is there really more than that?

Not agreeing that Lucas is better but not only does Lucas have better recovery but he also has a stronger edge guard and a better zoning game than ness. Lucas may also be able to combo a little better than ness thanks to his weird footstool combos. what ness really has going for him over Lucas in my opinion is that ness has more overall power, making a good read more rewarding for ness. It's also worth noting that Lucas's combos seem to be significantly more difficult to pull off consistently in tournament.

 

[Nu~]

Not agreeing that Lucas is better but not only does Lucas have better recovery but he also has a stronger edge guard and a better zoning game than ness. Lucas may also be able to combo a little better than ness thanks to his weird footstool combos. what ness really has going for him over Lucas in my opinion is that ness has more overall power, making a good read more rewarding for ness. It's also worth noting that Lucas's combos seem to be significantly more difficult to pull off consistently in tournament.

Lucas's combo game is also severely hindered by the fact that his main combo starter, Nair, is easily sdi-able.

 

[my_T]

Can we talk about Ness?

Ness doesn't have the results to be considered top 15 anymore. And I don't see how he's top 15 on paper either.

His neutral is average at best. He has a high risk/low reward projectile (you can often DI out of it before he can grab you) so it can't be relied on much. His has some great aerials but they don't have a ton of range and his overall mobility isn't that great either.

He has a poor disadvantage state with one of the most exploitable recoveries and mediocre landing options. His only landing mixup is attack or not. He can't safely shift momentum or threaten with disjoints like so many other characters can.

His combo game isn't that great either. People have realized you can simply DI in after down throw and then his extended fair strings into edge guarding no longer works. At most he gets one up air, sometimes not even that.

So the only aspect he excels at is reliable and early kill power. And I don't think that's enough to keep him in high tier.

People are so caught up on his advantage state and his kill options that they don't realize how bad he really is when you look at his neutral and disadvantage. I've said this before and i'll say it again; neutral and disadvantage are more important than advantage. Kill power and damage output are meaningless if you can't get your hands on your opponent; this is where his weak neutral really stands out. Then there's his disadvantage, you can wreck him just as hard as he can wreck you with him being juggle food and having a **** recovery. The heavies are a good example of how important neutral and disadvantage are. They generally have good damage output and can kill quite early and reliably in some cases but their neutral and disadvantage severely hinders their ability to win. This isn't just a smash thing either. There are plenty of other fighting games with characters that are designed like this and they usually don't turn out so well

 

[FeelMeUp]

ness fair strings work the same way as sheiks. if they react to the DI accordingly at super low % you get caught no matter what.

 

[verbatim]

JS, Ness has a little over twice as much results as Lucas when accounting for top 16 (weighted) at big events. I think people are missing the big picture. Relative top player skill is a big thing. To put it a different way, Jigglypuff isn't the second best character in Melee.

Taiheta can be a better player than the best Ness without making Lucas "better" than Ness.

I'm also pretty sure that FOW > Taiheta, but I don't know of any data for that.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness in my opinion is still a top 20 character. Yeah his recovery is simple to gimp, his neutral is meh and he has trouble getting in often but once he does your taking a lot of damage fast.

We all know about his Dthrow strings but he also can get good damage off falling Up-air which is safe when spaced properly. Up-air at zero will lead into a grab. At low percents up air can lead to up tilt which you can follow up with a Neutral, Up, Foward or Back air. I've been able to connect a PK fire after a Bair but I don't know how true this is. PKT is great for juggles and adding damage against characters that don't land well. Should you land it PK Fire of course deals great damage depending on what the opponent tries you can follow up accordingly (SDI up and away and jump out you can Fair, SDI back or roll out you can just chase them and grab anyways, try to jab you through it as you approach throw another PK Fire)

Ness is also a excellent ledge guarder with off stage PK Fire trapping people who try to jump back from the ledge which can lead to a Dair or Fsmash kill. His PK Thunder tail can gimp and force opponents to recover how he wants. His Down Smash is excellent at catching 2-Frames and it makes the Cloud and Rosalina MU's SO much less irritating. And should he leave the stage and edge guard his strong aerials, long lasting Nair and Fair can knock people far back and kill.

He just has so much kill power. Uair, Nair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair, Back throw, Foward Throw (Situational), PKT, PKT2 he can kill you and get you to kill percentages quickly. For those reasons alone I can't see him outside of top 20. I wish FOW and Shaky would travel more, NAKAT doesn't use him as much and other Ness' like Awestin, Ribs and S1-14 are more regional threats rather national.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrRhVb08uMQ

Spoiler

is high tier
ZeRo thinks that beats

Spoiler

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[FeelMeUp]

Olimar doing well against Diddy was a thought ever since prepatch days, wasn't it?
I didn't closely follow the super top players at the time, but didn't Dabuz used to CP Diddy players with Olimar?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

cue the shulk has potential memes again.

I dont agree with his placement of shulk at all and while i know that he believes in shulk he didnt explain his positives that well and didnt even mention mallc or his 50-50 in jump art via upthrow up air. He actually explained negatives more thoroughly than positives.

But hey, he has his opinions and i have mine

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

i feel sorry for shulk, he has to share a game with cloud and that just makes him look slow gimmiky and over all derpy lol... Wish shulk was better without having to rely on tech like Monado cancelling just to keep up with other characters

 

[Zelder]

Of course Lucario is high tier, you absolutely have to respect him even when he's getting the hell kicked out of him. Especially when he's getting the hell kicked out of him. Mediocre frame data, mediocre damage racking, meh mo-oh wait he just killed you with a bair at 60% and then hit you 4 times, taking you to 80%. Lucario is the "worst" good/viable character.



And everyone who mains him should be put into Hell Jail.


- thoughts from Zelder, professional salt lord

 

[TDK]

Olimar doing well against Diddy was a thought ever since prepatch days, wasn't it?
I didn't closely follow the super top players at the time, but didn't Dabuz used to CP Diddy players with Olimar?

The way Dabuz talks about Olimar, I've always assumed it was MU inexperience, but you're probably right. I wonder if @Dabuz would grace us with his thoughts on the Diddy-Olimar matchup?

 

[Y2Kay]

Sometimes being a Lucario main feels like being a witch in the Middle Ages.

 

[Minordeth]

Sometimes being a Lucario main feels like being a witch in the Middle Ages.

Is that because Lucario literally trades his own blood for power?

 

[Zelder]

Sometimes being a Lucario main feels like being a witch in the Middle Ages.

Incorrect, those women were innocent.

 

[Fenny]

Sometimes being a Lucario main feels like being a witch in the Middle Ages.

Only this time, burning you at the stake would probably kill the village folk at 5%

 

[Shady Shaymin]

serious question alert, how does ness deal with disjoints like, at all

 

[LancerStaff]

Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

 

[Joey T.]

Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

Because they have more representation and are actually better.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja only being one spot below what he got in the official tier list is interesting, the fact ZeRo thinks he could be top tier is cool even though it's kinda expected since he did seem to always have liked the frog

His Lucas placement was interesting though and I do kinda agree with it, but Lucas has always been a character that's been weird to place, at least for me.

 

[FamilyTeam]

serious question alert, how does ness deal with disjoints like, at all

From my experience... not at all, almost?
Lucina vs. Ness feels like it's basically: get past the wall Ness tries to put up, severly abuse your disjoint, get him offstage, force him to use PK Thunder, and rack up some damage with counter.
Kinda feels like his way of dealing with swords would be not even letting them get near him.

New Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

Marth and Corrin definitely weren't forgotten, they're just honestly better characters by this point, really.

 

[SaltyKracka]

serious question alert, how does ness deal with disjoints like, at all

By having both projectiles and some pretty damn decent disjoints of his own.

Another tier list with Greninja over Pit... And Marth and Corrin a tier ahead of him assuming Zero didn't just forget them. Seriously, why?

Because he's just not that good.

There should only be so many times people have to repeat this for you to understand it, dude.

 

[ReRaze]

Pit's got some crazy stuff as well... Even something simple is still pretty damaging, like Dair > Dair > Uair for 30%. I'm no expert though, so I'll let ReRaze explain if he wants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfoTUbL6CNQ&list=PLp-1erL0_ll25oeqkp82K9KXUNA_lJA4c&index=22

While it's not a crazy death combo, 0 to 57 is no joke.

Pit has more damaging combos and 0-Death stuff with footstools too. Dair > Dair > Uair/Nair/Bair is the Optimal followup which does around ~30% after a lock, which itself should do ~20% unless you decide to go for another lock afterwards. The timing is actually alot more lenient than greninja, ike, peach and megaman's footstool stuff.

Even if you miss the sweetspot dair's knockback angles still allow for followups and if you miss the dair entirely they are put into a tech chase scenario (not that they can tech), even something like Dair > Footstool > Dash Attack would do more than a simple dthrow > uair.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

ZeRo's 1.1.6 tier list, tiger Uppercut Tier edition:

TL;DW, picture version of what we have so far: