Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Vyrnx]

ZSS Zair is a great poking tool and hit confirm for grab/Boost Kick at high %. But what if that move couldn't hit Cloud? What if Cloud's crouching animation was too short to get hit by her Zair? That'd be pretty silly, right?

ZSS' zair does hit crouching Cloud.

I usually get sarcastic when people are adamantly refusing to acknowledge whatever point I'm trying to make. Like, instead of just trying to argue with me, they could spend less than 5 minutes in training mode to see something simple like Cloud ALWAYS being able to duck ZSS Zair. But hey, I don't test things. I just make up stuff about Cloud to spread misinformation on Smashboards.

That's a little ironic.

I'm actually pretty sure I took your post seriously and described in detail and with respect why you were wrong, and then you quoted me with, "lots of words lol," and proceeded to waste all of your time writing that reply that wasn't correct. You didn't adequately address anything I said in that post, and I could list examples but that's what I wrote that post for in the first place. And I don't see any, "adamant refusal," when the first thing I admitted is that Cloud's dtilt is a good mixup.

In a look at a smaller aspect of neutral like the zair dtilt interaction, you haven't addressed the fact that ZSS can mixup (specifically a fade back) or the fact that Cloud's dtilt is still risky, especially against ZSS. Instead you place it in this situation where Cloud is literally standing still or crouching doing nothing and the ZSS is doing everything instead, which isn't how this MU plays out at all.

Which brings me to the broader picture of neutral (much more important in terms of this thread). Again, watch the MU played out between Nairo/Komo and you will see this. The point Jamurai and myself are making is that there are tons of interactions going on in tandem with high movement specs, mind games, reads, etc (both characters at the same time) and you're trying to make a grocery list to win neutral game for Cloud. The neutral game between these two characters is very much movement based, as with most top tier vs top tier mus.

This is actually a very relevant MU to discuss in this thread and ZSS gets very little discussion, so I appreciate that at least.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Nobody said that skill was the only factor. Matchup familiarity definitely is a factor, which ties into character choice. A MegaMan player is definitely going to have more experience against Cloud than the other way around.

Name me a relevant MegaMan player in Florida or in Japan that isn't Kamemushi.

I'll wait.

For japan, Daiki, and I'm pretty sure there's another one too.

idk about Florida, but Scatt is pretty close to it.

 

[Piipp]

For japan, Daiki, and I'm pretty sure there's another one too.

idk about Florida, but Scatt is pretty close to it.

He was more relevant near the beginning of Smash 4. Even then his best placement at Japan's notable tournaments was at Umebura 19, which he got 4th at. Not to mention that it was August of last year. He usually places between 25th and 49th at them now. So if you asked me if he were relevant at this point, I'd say no, not as of now.

And for Scatt, I wasn't really referring to him at all. I was meaning a MegaMan player in FL that could've potentially helped M2K get some kind of MU experience.

 

[Game7a1]

And for Scatt, I wasn't really referring to him at all. I was meaning a MegaMan player in FL that could've potentially helped M2K get some kind of MU experience.

There is a Megaman player called Jaq who's on the Jacksonville PR, but that's about it. Not sure if he has helped M2K or not.

 

[Shaya]

For some context about top class OoS.... a bit has changed since that comment.
Mewtwo and Marth buffs - i.e. the Marth/swordsman archetype with power levels/tuning relevant at a viable level. Solid Dash OoS, tilts, rising aerial punishes. Sheik's fair was the only top tier oos fair (Diddy's is more prone to whiff and is super laggy on regular landing), now there's two others; heck the nerf to Sheik's fair made the OoS spectrum a lot simpler except for the whole "Sakurai decided to ruin everything with Bayonetta" thing.
Cloud while not explicitly a Marth-game plan gets a lot of mileage from his OoS game (i.e. jump nair oos >>> basically all aerial approach mix ups for most of the cast), dtilt and dash attack are very strong too.
Bayo was released as well, which we all know (note: if you don't know, then you aren't worthy of being in the 'all' group :3) has the simplest, easiest and most dominant OoS option in the cast (Brawl MK shuttle loop and tornado without free fall in one move with slightly less horizontal rage: hype - although I'm getting pretty good at punishing this thing now, thank you 8 years of anti-mk tornado meta for the hints).

But yeah, despite the pain and suffering of fairs oos and,bayo, ZSS still has an OoS option spread that's pretty representative of her top tier status. The lacking of a rising aerial option for grounded opponents brings some sadness, but you gotta have some well designed balance characters with constraints to remind ourselves Bayo was just a mistake how great Smash4 is.

Not mentioned in some of the posts still was the potency of the 10f up smash and 8f (15OoS) dash attack. So much vertical and horizontal range respectively.

Re: Cloud vs ZSS
Both characters are required to jump to function. ZSS outplays Cloud on the ground mostly due to jab, while ZSS has to try extra extra hard to outspace Cloud (she definitely can) pressing buttons in the air.
IMO ZSS wins solidly at the optimal level, but you aren't consistently being a god with zero suit's legs against Cloud's sword (fortunately you only really need to be godlike with her legs twice or thrice per stock to kill him).
Cloud dtilt is pretty good though. Near guaranteed (frame trapping) late nair = death done right. There are animation differences between jumping away and forward too...
Good thing ZSS jumping forward with landing nair can hit Cloud down tilting ^_^
Make sure you practice bom-omb landing nair spacing every day in the lab, kids.

 

[Pazzo.]

Make sure you practice bom-omb landing nair spacing every day in the lab, kids.

I hate to be that guy, but what's that?

 

[Rizen]

I hate to be that guy, but what's that?

I think he meant spacing that can safely detonate a bob-omb item.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think he meant spacing that can safely detonate a bob-omb item.

Alright, thanks.

 

[Krysco]

This topic may be best for somewhere else since it's nothing more than theory but with a port of Sm4sh pretty much confirmed for the NS, something came across my mind that could affect the meta. There's the theory of additional characters and either additional stages or just getting access to some/all 3DS stages which is all well and good and generally an accepted idea but what about this idea: what if Sm4sh NS comes with all customs unlocked? I recall that being one of the big problems with them is that if you wanted to try them out, you either had to grind rng to get them or rely on someone else owning a copy of the 3DS version.

I can see the whole 'too jank' problem still being prevalent but at the same time, that's assuming all customs were allowed. Not all stages are allowed and while the time wasn't long lived, there was a time that Brawl MK was banned for being overpowered so if some custom character becomes too much (mind you, the likes of Sheik, Rosa and Mario come with decent customs) then a custom move could simply be banned. Heck, it could even be that only low/bottom tiers get access to them to give some of them a few extra tools to help them out.

Just something I've been pondering. The custom meta is quite different from the vanilla one and custom moves haven't been hit by patches anywhere near as much as normal moves. They don't fully balance the cast and at this point, may very well lead to less balance. Plus the NS port has other issues like if it'll support GC controllers. But if the NS does come with them all unlocked, that's one less roadblock for them and I could see them being pushed for again.

 

[Zelder]

Customs own and are extremely fun (AS A MARIO MAIN), but the idea that we'd suddenly make a huge change and allow a sudden influx of changes into the meta is laughable on its face. The Smash Community as a whole is pretty conservative, and at this point I think we're pretty much locked in on meta changes/advancements until we get into a ugly, knock down drag out fight over the legality of Duck Hunt in exactly 4 months*.







*it is replaced in the official stage lis with Yoshi's Island Brawl when NX is released, to much rejoicing from people who don't like trees or dogs

 

[verbatim]

People don't like new stuff. I'm honestly surprised that DLC characters are legal given how conservative Sm4sh has become over since release.


I'd love to see customs legalized, specifically being unlocked from the beginning on the Switch with generous nerfs, but people would still not want to adapt.


The closest thing I could see is some kind of compromise ruleset where you can only have 1 custom move on at a time, cutting down on the # of combinations drastically while still allowing the cool custom counterpick meta.


It'd also go a long way towards making Pikachu, Rosa, Villager, and Sonic a lot less annoying.

 

[Krysco]

Customs were allowed before, all at once, albeit reluctantly and there is always the idea of allowing it only for low/bottom tiers to give them a better chance. I do agree that it's unlikely since the community is overall conservative but the people who pushed for customs managed to get them used for at least a time which is more than what can be said for anyone trying to replace Duck Hunt and/or Lylat with one of the other Wii U stages and for anyone trying to make 3 stock the norm.

Speaking of stages, if Sm4sh NS does get YIB and DH is banned, I can see Mac and Ganon players being quite happy. Biggest character that comes to mind that is hindered by such a change is Sonic. Might be a slight hindrance to those with high platform ko throws but there's DL64, T&C and BF for that. Also a slight hindrance to anyone who makes use of the 2D aspect and anyone who makes use of the wall.

verbatim lol I agree. It's funny how the community is fully willing to make it the norm that everyone buys extra characters that require going outside of the game (if at the very least for practice against them since 5 of them are at least high tier) and yet that same community won't allow free characters who require going outside of the game because awful premade ones exist. Also won't allow 4 characters who come with unlocked extra tools to use those tools because it requires flicking a switch and going to a separate screen than the CSS.

 

[Luco]

Comes into my earlier argument, that the meta we're stuck with is the meta we create.

Down the line I've lost my fervor for campaigning customs (it's something the community will never tread back on unless some kind of miracle happens) but it's worth discussing as a community just how much customs (or free miis weewwwww) would impact the current meta and not the one we had a year ago.

Something tells me mid-level players would be much more willing to work around custom timber if their own custom jank was legal, whilst more knowledge is circulating around the community than ever before and while far more concerning 'roadblocks' (If a mid-low level player gets JV 3'd by a Bayonetta are they more likely to go home and never return vs the trip sapling their friend dealt with?) exist.

 

[|RK|]

As someone that mains a character that hugely benefits from customs... what for? I don't see what they necessarily add except for more ridiculous characters.

 

[Luco]

As someone that mains a character that hugely benefits from customs... what for? I don't see what they necessarily add except for more ridiculous characters.

Given the theoretical 'height' of our top tiers in terms of power balance, it seems logical that raising the mean power towards the top end by giving most of the cast lots of tools is a good idea.

This didn't work previously because of a host of other issues, but to my mind the question of balance was never truly answered. And certainly not fore-seeing the meta we now have today.

Similar reasons for miis, it also gives some characters communities that they didn't have before which is generally nice and prolongs a healthy meta for more characters.

That said this stems from my ultimate philosophy that ideally we'd allow customs we perceive to balance the roster more closely and ban customs we perceived otherwise / impinging on that balance. Obviously logistics-wise that's a bloody nightmare, but getting as close to that ideal is my aim - to that end settling the score of what happens to a meta with customs on is a ruleset worth testing.

 

[blackghost]

if you are hoping to see customs in this community you are setting yourself up for disappointment. this community is so ridged that if new stages come in i expect duck hunt and lylat (even though they are perfectly fine) to get axed. as for new chartacters i dont want the ice climbers in they've been busted in every game they've been in. if there are changes i expect siome buffs and changes to the cast.some characters really just need some better air and ground mobility and they'll be fine anyway.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

With the changes to grab mechanics I doubt Icies will be busted like previous titles no wobbling or grab to death combos anymore. If we get any new characters Icies would probably be include since Sakurai did have them fully functional on the Wii U version but the 3DS limitations had them cut and im sure their coding is still saved somewhere

 

[Ziodyne 21]

There is one problem with potentially bringing back customs in competitive play now. Take into account there are now 7 characters (The DLC) that do not have custom moves. So allowing customs will give a advantage and part of thr meta that those 7 cannot take advantage of at all

Yea characters like or being at a disadvantage I know how many people would just Looooove that..
But in the interest of "fairness" it is a problem unless they can get custom moves added in the possible Switch port (which I somewhat doubt)

 

[Das Koopa]

So this is happening.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Icies would somehow have busted throw combos. It's just a law of the universe.

I for one would love to see customs back if NX changes how you get them, especially since I think the random unlock system being a logistical pain is really the only strike against them (Palutena should have access to hers in tournaments currently, but I suppose that's another argument). And it's a big strike. Truly a mystifying design choice.

Furthermore, I support a return to a happier time in the past, when players of nonsense top tier characters like pre-patch Sheik were furious that DK had a windbox while still being bad.

"Custom moves are jank," says player whose character was designed to never lose neutral.

Also, Pikachu would have another kill move, so that would be nice.

DLC characters don't have customs, but they do have the advantage of all their attributes/moves having been examined closely during design with no other distractions, so they have fewer useless moves than do other characters.

 

[Fenny]

So this is happening.

BRUH

I see no source of potential spaghetti in either line up too

This is gonna be one to remember.

 

[Deleted member]

Does MKLeo even use MK that often anymore? I usually see him go Marth and Cloud these days.

 

[BunbUn129]

Does MKLeo even use MK that often anymore? I usually see him go Marth and Cloud these days.

He won Hail Smash VI about a month ago using MK, and did use him a bit in SP 58 more recently (edit:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QVXGZDUNyE up air side KO, jab cancel into SL on the ledge, a double bair lock, dash attack -> RAR dair -> bair, all in one set). Still the best MK which is highly impressive. But yes, I agree it would've been more fitting to put Marth on the poster.

 

[Y2Kay]

So this is happening.

This doubles not only as a civil war crew battle but US vs the world LOL.

So frickin' hyped about this.

 

[Krysco]

There is one problem with potentially bringing back customs in competitive play now. Take into account there are now 7 characters (The DLC) that do not have custom moves. So allowing customs will give a advantage and part of thr meta that those 7 cannot take advantage of at all

Yea characters like or being at a disadvantage I know how many people would just Looooove that..
But in the interest of "fairness" it is a problem unless they can get custom moves added in the possible Switch port (which I somewhat doubt)

5 of the 7 dlc characters are already high tier and it's not like they're the only ones who get treated unfairly. Sheik gets access to needles that do increased shield damage and pierce through things like DH can along with marginally better grenade options, meanwhile Jigglypuff gets basically nothing. That could very well work as a point against adding customs though, especially if none are banned.

 

[L9999]

With the changes to grab mechanics I doubt Icies will be busted like previous titles no wobbling or grab to death combos anymore. If we get any new characters Icies would probably be include since Sakurai did have them fully functional on the Wii U version but the 3DS limitations had them cut and im sure their coding is still saved somewhere

The fact that they are two characters at once guarantee top/high tier status. They get insane damage from a grab no matter what. They have footstool, rage and removal of meteor cancel and hitstun cancel to work with.

Does MKLeo even use MK that often anymore? I usually see him go Marth and Cloud these days.

It fits on the poster and it is his most popular character.

This doubles not only as a civil war crew battle but US vs the world LOL.

So frickin' hyped about this.

Doesn't look too good for "the world." ZeRo has defeated everyone in Team World except Kameme, Salem and Larry are beasts that can defeat anyone, Dabuz, Nairo and VoID are icing in the cake.

 

[FeelMeUp]

For those of you that don't know, ZeRo still does play Sheik very frequently on streams. Here's him vs MK Leo's Marth in what I believe was a Bo5.

 

[Luco]

if you are hoping to see customs in this community you are setting yourself up for disappointment. this community is so ridged that if new stages come in i expect duck hunt and lylat (even though they are perfectly fine) to get axed. as for new chartacters i dont want the ice climbers in they've been busted in every game they've been in. if there are changes i expect siome buffs and changes to the cast.some characters really just need some better air and ground mobility and they'll be fine anyway.

Even knowing this, posts like this kinda demonstrate how much we've accepted our 'rigidity'. Whilst I don't necessarily expect to see a world chage its ruleset, what I'm aiming for is ruleset diversity, and for some TOs to be brave enough to test these kinds of things in their own regions, which is far more plausible.

There is one problem with potentially bringing back customs in competitive play now. Take into account there are now 7 characters (The DLC) that do not have custom moves. So allowing customs will give a advantage and part of thr meta that those 7 cannot take advantage of at all

Yea characters like or being at a disadvantage I know how many people would just Looooove that..
But in the interest of "fairness" it is a problem unless they can get custom moves added in the possible Switch port (which I somewhat doubt)

"Fairness" just doesn't come into it for me, I know it's an argument that's been used by people and the more I think about it the more I think it's a really silly argument (no offense to you for bringing it up! Just wanted to point this out). Basically we're not aiming for fairness in the kind of context that we want the same options for everyone, we're aiming for equity. We want the end result to be as close as possible - think about the DLC of which most of whom are already borderline broken (keep in mind 3 of the 7 DLC are *top 10*, with another 3 in high tier somewhere). In other words, balance is the kind of 'fairness' we really need to be valuing here. This is why I'd be comfortable seeing any-size most viable-size miis. Sorry DLC for not having customs, but you'll probably live. For *plenty* of the underwhelming characters in this game, customs gives them a chance to be great viable again.

This is really getting away from the main topic though. If you'd like to keep having this discussion then I'm happy to continue in DMs or you can ping me in the customs thread.

 

[verbatim]

As someone that mains a character that hugely benefits from customs... what for? I don't see what they necessarily add except for more ridiculous characters.

What is your opinion on Cloud and Bayonetta?

OG needles/boost kick/bouncing fish and modern banana/quick attack/spindash/LCS/WT are miles better than pretty much every custom attack in the game except for maybe hammer spindash.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

There's a thread for customs? Link please!

 

[PoptartLord]

A mix of hypothetical and current meta stuff in this post; root around for the parts you like.

...but what about this idea: what if Sm4sh NS comes with all customs unlocked? I recall that being one of the big problems with them is that if you wanted to try them out, you either had to grind rng to get them or rely on someone else owning a copy of the 3DS version.
...
Heck, it could even be that only low/bottom tiers get access to them to give some of them a few extra tools to help them out.

I'm going to preface this by saying I'm all for allowing the whole move pools. Having them all unlocked at the start solves just one problem. Not being divorced from equipment is another. As is the lack of an 'on the fly' load out picking (a new button on the character select screen bringing up a list, for example). And of course, being allowed on online matches [For Glory, For Fun].

That's just the logistics side. Even if all of the above were solved the biggest issue is the players. This is going to sound really negative (and it is) but people don't like change, especially addition. Every week I try to get people to broaden their horizons by going to new stages and I can't even get the vast majority of them to go to Delfino. Delfino!! It used to be legal! Familiarizing oneself with a stage is a lot easier than expanded move pools, so.... expect heavy resistance all the way.

The "low/bottom only" situation is a weak one. Aside from the obvious "who decides which characters are low/bottom as a standard for tournaments worldwide?", why would you potentially deny the higher tiers their tools for dealing with the newly introduced ones? There's far too much 'arbitrary' in the whole situation.

5 of the 7 dlc characters are already high tier and it's not like they're the only ones who get treated unfairly. Sheik gets access to needles that do increased shield damage and pierce through things like DH can along with marginally better grenade options, meanwhile Jigglypuff gets basically nothing. That could very well work as a point against adding customs though, especially if none are banned.

Let's be honest, Jigglypuff is boned either way.

*ahem* This is not a game about 58 characters being fair. This is a game about 58 characters using their tools to overcome the opponent's tools. If everything was fair then there would be no tiers. Those with a combination of "good tools" + "being able to effectively use said tools" get to be high tier. The rest... don't.

[work in something about how the game creators are the ones who put the extra moves in the game in the first place]

Re-reading this I get the impression I've been coming down hard on Krysco. Apologies, as that's not my intention; I'm just using you as a springboard.

People don't like new stuff. I'm honestly surprised that DLC characters are legal given how conservative Sm4sh has become over since release.
...
The closest thing I could see is some kind of compromise ruleset where you can only have 1 custom move on at a time, cutting down on the # of combinations drastically while still allowing the cool custom counterpick meta.

I've never thought of it that way but now that you mention it the immediate acceptance of new characters is out of place in the observed conservative mentality. I guess it must be the "right kind" of new stuff.

That compromise doesn't work. The effort needed to implement it is 90+% of the way to allowing 4 at a time. All it does is arbitrarily favor characters that can "get away" (for a severe lack of a better term) with swapping out only one special move.

Even knowing this, posts like this kinda demonstrate how much we've accepted our 'rigidity'.

Quick story - just today a buddy of mine was saying that with two stocks if he messed up and lost a stock early it's sometimes a huge, draining ordeal to try to make the comeback all on the last stock. I mentioned how I wouldn't mind 3 stocks, some discussion happened, but then it suddenly ended with "eh, it's not going to happen anyways" (paraphrasing). How depressing.

...wait, there's an active alternate specials thread? I thought they all died.

-PoptartLord

 

[Krysco]

I'm aware that the community at large isn't one for change and the idea of customs being unlocked at the start is a bit of a stretch (after all, they're locked in both the 3DS and Wii U versions and one of the encouragements for playing modes like Classic, Target Blast and Trophy Rush is being rewarded with customs). There's also those issues mentioned by PoptartLord. The 'already unlocked' idea was just the first and most problematic that came to mind.

The loadout issue is a very minor one, common set ups would likely already be on each NS and it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of time to make a set so long as you know what it is you want (if there's a rule enforcing a stage pick within a certain time limit, it could be used for custom choosing too). An added button would be nice though.

As for the lack of online use, iirc they are allowed in friend matches. FF and FG shouldn't dictate the rules of the meta since they're separate from it (no stage choosing, items on FF, time vs stock on FF, shorter time on FG). Course, I say that while also being fully aware that the current meta mostly uses 2 stock most likely because that's what FG uses.

The whole low tier thing seems simple to me. There's one official tier list and that's the one made by the 4BR so if it were set up that low tiers get access to customs, it'd be based off the 4BR tier list. Course, this opens its own set of problems since customs could raise low tiers into mid tier and lower mid tiers into low tier and then those characters would have customs available and it'd become a mess. Top and high tiers not getting them isn't too much of a problem since they're already top/high tier. They already have a bunch of useful tools, whereas the low tiers don't. They can only get, at most 4 tools and for many, not all 4 are useful.

Anyways, I just thought I'd bring up the idea since customs were pushed for enough in the past that they did get used for a time and if Nintendo makes them easier to access in the NS port, I could see them being pushed for again and wondered what others thought on the matter. I'm sure Zero Saga is a much more relevant topic and there is a separate thread for custom discussion. My apologies for delving into a yellow topic without linking it to a green one~

 

[ぱみゅ]

If we encouraged the usage of Hacked 3DS's to share a savefile with the Smash data with all the Customs available (and maybe with the sets pre-loaded) Nintendo would SURELY do something about the way they are unlocked, they really frown upon any sort of hacking (the main reason the Mini-NES was launched, and the Virtual Console exists at all).
Fun fact: it is way easier to unlock Custom Moves in the 3DS version, and transferring them all to a Wii U takes like 5 minutes.

ANYWAY.
There is a thread for discussing the Customs (possible) metagames, as well as one about Rulesets. While I love it that the discussion wasn't heated and actually well-received by some (though the consensus is that we have a huge roadblock against any sort of change), but let's keep those discussions there.


Zero saga is looking like the long-promised Civil War thing btw.


ANYWAYANYWAY
I need to ask you all something important: What are your opinions on Luigi and Olimar right now?

 

[Deleted member]

and are both good characters. They do have pretty suspect high tier MUs but them being a valid pick against certain relevant characters along with their really strong advantage states will keep them aloft somehow. Olimar is never gonna be popular due to his learning curve, but his players (Shuton, Myran, Dabuz) do so much work with him.

 

[MistressRemilia]

If we encouraged the usage of Hacked 3DS's to share a savefile with the Smash data with all the Customs available (and maybe with the sets pre-loaded) Nintendo would SURELY do something about the way they are unlocked, they really frown upon any sort of hacking (the main reason the Mini-NES was launched, and the Virtual Console exists at all).
Fun fact: it is way easier to unlock Custom Moves in the 3DS version, and transferring them all to a Wii U takes like 5 minutes.

ANYWAY.
There is a thread for discussing the Customs (possible) metagames, as well as one about Rulesets. While I love it that the discussion wasn't heated and actually well-received by some (though the consensus is that we have a huge roadblock against any sort of change), but let's keep those discussions there.


Zero saga is looking like the long-promised Civil War thing btw.


ANYWAYANYWAY
I need to ask you all something important: What are your opinions on Luigi and Olimar right now?

Opinion on Luigi hasn't changed: Decent character who may be underrated by some not factoring how in practice, it is indeed much harder to play against a character that can clutch out games as well as Luigi ( Luigi's mixups are insane ) , overrated by others that think advantage state carries the viability of a character regardless of how poor their neutral may be against some characters ( See: Some of luigi's worse matchups, zoners of all kind come in mind ). Has yet to reach his potential peak, which is the counterpick niche: Good matchups on Mario & Diddy for a character that isn't exactly hard to play is quite valuable for some players, but it isn't as developped as some would wish, many players opting for the lazier ( & sometimes unoptimal ) choice of a counterpick secondary character that is Cloud.

I strongly believe that Olimar is a great character, who's only big issue comes with the disadvantage state, but otherwise, definitly one of the most overwhelmingly good neutrals, and a consistently good advantage state that needs to be respected. Olimar's matchups are also underrated: They're not the best but i believe that Olimar is more likely to place high on a major than a majority of high tiers such as Falcon or previously mentionned Luigi. People will soon realize the full strength of Olimar if Shuton does good enough at Frostbite: He is undoubtedly the best Olimar by a large margin, with wins on very good players of characters that have been considered as hard for Olimar to deal with ( Shuton beat Komorikiri & Rain )

 

[Routa]

Luigi kinda suffered the same fate as Wario when DLC became a thing. The main difference why Luigi is still relevant and a threat is that his tools aren't lacking. Even tho I play a character that can out neutral Luigi easily... I fear him. Why? His ability to even out the %s from a grab is just something els. He just has to win neutral once and you will be in a world of pain, but then again this is common knowledge.

As for Olimar... I hate this character, but I don't think he is that good. Why I hate him? Red Pikmins. Why? When majority of your moves have fire effect... well... You are not gonna have a good time.
So why I think he is bad? It has to do with how Pikmins work. Also by looking at his Pikmins you can easily predict what he is going to do. Now add the poor disadvantage state and you can see why I don't think so highly about him when it comes to his tools and theory. Tho I cannot ignore the results he has got. The counterplay is still in baby's shoes tho.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So this is happening.

It better have appropriately good commentary!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Luigi is not good fam.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I've always thought this character to be a bit better than he was perceived after his nerfs his gameplay is pretty one sided and if your can out neutral or out range him you probably won't have a hard time against him but he can do SO much damage off one grab it's incredible. I find myself getting overwhelmed by his quick moves often plus that combo breaking Nair makes trying to string him difficult. Plus he has a ton of options to recover (albeit he's dead if you burn his second jump)

No real opinion on I've played like two only in FG lol, from what I watch he's also underrated heavily, optimization of Pikimin organization can really push this character further

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Luigi will stay as a solid counter pick character and a good pocket character to have. Not good for running solo.

Olimar is having a spike in results so everyone is starting to sing his praises or claim "he's always been underrated". Kinda ignoring the fact that nobody has a true idea of how to counterplay him yet. That will come and he'll drop back down to earth.

Neither are high tier material. I'd say Luigi is a more important pocket character than Olimar as well.