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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Shady Shaymin

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Both :4luigi: and :4olimar: are solid Diddy counterpicks, which is pretty huge. I would generally say Luigi satisfies the niche better because he's easier to use and he also does well against the likes of Fox and Mario. Luigi gets **** on too hard by :4sheik:, :4mewtwo:, :4cloud: and:rosalina: in my opinion to be anywhere near solo viable, but he has a place in the metagame.
 

my_T

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Luigi will stay as a solid counter pick character and a good pocket character to have. Not good for running solo.

Olimar is having a spike in results so everyone is starting to sing his praises or claim "he's always been underrated". Kinda ignoring the fact that nobody has a true idea of how to counterplay him yet. That will come and he'll drop back down to earth.

Neither are high tier material. I'd say Luigi is a more important pocket character than Olimar as well.
Lol do enlighten us
 

Fenny

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Lol do enlighten us
How can he enlighten us when he just said there isn't any solid counterplay for him yet rofl

Even Dabuz said he mostly takes out Olimar because he'd be hard pressed to find anyone who actually has the MU experience to properly deal with him at the top level
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Lol do enlighten us
When did I ever say I knew how to counterplay him well?

Dude has been borderline nonexistent in NA for ages outside of like 2 people that use him. Hence why almost nobody knows how to yet: there's been no reason to bother figuring it out.

Has happened to other characters in the past: see Dr.Mario. Not saying Olimar is that bad, but its just common sense. If a character isn't used, you don't have the ability to really know how to counterplay them well.

EDIT: forgot the more obvious reason example of Samus. Johnny Westside got results for a few weeks, people starting going crazing and suggesting maybe she could be as high as low mid.... and then the results drop off as people figured Samus out.

Seriously, look back throughout SSB4's history. The number of times a character has had a spike in results and it sustained has been... Mewtwo and Marth. Both of those were due to patches. MegaMan, Lucas and Toon Link are borderline examples: results have certainly gone up for them but they're still not common at all. Still more common than Olimar though.

Really this community looks for excuses to hype up a character and toss them several tiers higher way too much. Olimar has a spike, people are demanding he be put into high tier claiming that "they've always thought he was underrated". Spoilers: the majority of you simply never had a thought about him before. Same thing kinda happened with Peach when the Japanese came over, its going to happen again with DHD when they come over again. Its just silly.

Wait a good 3 months to see how results level out once counterplay is created, then decide if a character should move up or if it was just a flash in the pan.
 
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Vyrnx

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Jonny Westside's results were pretty good for about a year, not a few weeks. He's also very much a mid-ish level player, so it was only a matter of time until he dropped off in a region like SoCal. But both those things are beside the point.
 
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PGH_Chrispy

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Another notable samus is Icymist, he's pretty dominant on wifi (ranked platinum a few seasons on Anther's, not sure how he's doing now) and in Pgh/Neoh when he's not busy with school (which tbf isn't that strong of a region). Good samuses are out there making a name for the character if you look for them.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Wifi doesn't matter for anything: lag is absolutely massive even when its not physically noticeable. Over doubles the amount from offline in terms of input lag, makes a huge difference for say, shielding projectiles. Or shielding Z-airs. Or trying to DI out of combos. Etc. Its about as relevant as the 3DS scene.

If its not a strong region it... again doesn't really matter for much. There was an Ike main where, last I heard, was doing well in Alaska. Doesn't make it particularly noticeable.

Its all just dancing around the general point I was trying to make: once people hear about a character doing well in a region (regardless of how long they have been getting results there), they instantly chuck the character up in standings without considering other things or waiting to see if it holds out over the long run. You need at least two cycles of "new play -> counterplay" before you can judge if its a serious improvement on the character's part or just lack of knowledge on the opponents' part causing the results to spike.
 

mountain_tiger

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Samus is actually pretty close to being a decent character. It's just that, outside of full Charge Shot, she doesn't have anything 'scary' on her side, and the severe lack of reliable kill moves that aren't ultra-weak means it's pretty easy for most opponents to survive to high percents against her. (Her very poor grab game doesn't help her case either, but that's not nearly as crippling as the killing issue)

It's a shame really, because IMO her overall design is a lot better thought-out than many of the very heavy characters - specifically, the fact that she has a good recovery, reasonable ledge options and a not-completely-terrible disadvantage state allows her better survivability than most heavyweights. Honestly, just give her her old DSmash back; that alone would be of immense help.
 

Vyrnx

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Samus is good at killing. That's not one of her major flaws.

Her nair is one of the strongest of the fast front facing aerials (I think second? Actually third counting Zelda's sweetspot fair) and has a horizontal knockback angle. That combined with its lingering hitbox and her floatiness makes it really good at edge guarding. If Samus is in a good position and gets a read on the opponent's SH with nair, then she can get a kill (early with rage) or if they're at 70+, put them off stage.

CS is the best chargeable projectile for killing not just because of its speed compared to the others (and power compared to ones other than Mewtwo's and aura Lucario's), but because of how she can put opponents in situations where they get hit. She has tech chases that lead to CS at all percents, but the relevant ones as far as killing are jab combo to CS, sourspot ftilt to CS (inescapable as far as Samuses know), zair tech chase to CS, and if they survive to high percents, then jab 1 tech chase to CS.

Bair obviously kills really early and that and nair give her two solid killing aerials also usable out of shad.

Those are three reasonable moves that kill pretty early, like ~100-130 range. Her edge guarding is fantastic as well. Other early kill options are uair combos to up b on platform stages or kill combos off of missed techs on utilt/dair. And actually her usmash kills around 120 as well.

At the 150ish range, up b OOS, uair, fair, tipper ftilt, unteched utilt, and dash attack start killing, which is most of her moveset. Falling uair to jab to fsmash is a pretty good kill combo

Her advantage state is amazing with her juggling, combos, edge and ledge guarding, tech chases, and powerful moves.

Her disadvantage state is meh. She can't land on stage reliably and has to go the ledge a lot when she gets juggled. What keeps it from being terrible is her weight, ability to escape combos, recovery, and ledge options.

Her neutral game is kind of limited. Her midrange game is amazing, and her neutral can be somewhat threatening with dash attack, zair comboing into dash attack, nair, and obviously CS. But she can't stop strong approach options and she can get forced to the ledge really easily. Her grab sucks and keeps her from playing a dash attack/grab based neutral that would otherwise be quite good with her dash attack. Camping or idling against Samus will cause you to lose if Samus gets you in her midrange. It's always just better to be aggressive against Samus and a lot of her bad mus like MK, Pikachu, Sheik and Fox are very capable of that. And characters like Ness, Ryu, Luigi, and all of the heavier characters struggle.

I think she's a pretty good character that's in a game with better characters that keep her down. As opposed to low tiers in other Smash games that are actually bad and not redeemable.

Also, the only good active Samus players right now are YB from Japan and Afrosmash from England. Nobody plays this character.
 
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Das Koopa

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stuff I'm using this weekend

Used:
KTAR XIX (New Jersey)
Hero to Zero - Offline Qualifier (Southern California)
Battle on the Strip (Nevada)
Kings of the North V (Wisconsin)
Battlegrounds 3 (Texas)
Who's Your Pappy? 5 (Northern California)

Maybe:
Smash Tournament Duoc UC (Chile)


Let's start a debate on my methodology: Should I use Arcadians?
 
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SaltyKracka

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stuff I'm using this weekend

Used:
KTAR XIX (New Jersey)
Hero to Zero - Offline Qualifier (Southern California)
Battle on the Strip (Nevada)
Kings of the North V (Wisconsin)
Who's Your Pappy? 5 (Northern California)

Maybe:
Smash Tournament Duoc UC (Chile)


Let's start a debate on my methodology: Should I use Arcadians?
Arcadians by definition aren't as competitive as they could be.
 
D

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Nicko :4shulk:just 2-0'd Fatality :4falcon: in Battlegrounds 3 pools.

This is actually pretty big. Fatality considered the MU even beforehand after being able to play Tremendo Dude in the past. Nicko has also beaten Tearbear, a notable Falcon in SoCal before.
 
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Das Koopa

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Gomamugitya is at KTAR XIX. Huh.

Also, the only good active Samus players right now are YB from Japan and Afrosmash from England. Nobody plays this character.
IcyMist exists. 33rd at CEO, took sets off of Seagull and Day in the process. YB could theoretically be the best Samus but I'd like to see him show up at a Sumabato or Umebura and do well. No idea who Afro's taken sets off of.
 
D

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Oatmeal :4metaknight: 2-0's Mr. E :4marth:at KTAR XIX also. :eyes:

Hopefully Oatmeal is going to get more recognition after this, his MK is legit.
 

FeelMeUp

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Results should factor in all results from mid level and higher, in my opinion. I think offline stuff with good enough numbers like Arcadians should be counted, but online qualifiers and such should never be counted because they skew the data.
 

Das Koopa

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Samsora 2-1 Dabuz (!!!!!)
Dark Wizzy 2-1 Zinoto
Oatmeal 2-0 Mr. E
 
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kaz99

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Dark Wizzy also just beat WaDi 2-1. It would be interesting to see him make top 8
 

JB333

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Fatality got the run back 3-1ing Nicko in losers semis and samsora in top 8 at Ktar was DEFINETLY unexpected.
 

Vyrnx

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No idea who Afro's taken sets off of.
I say Afro just because of how he plays the character. He's the only Samus player who uses sh uair in neutral (to great effect) and is the best at landing on stage with bombs and shield cross ups. He always seems to get nair kills and just seems to be really aware of all of her options at one time. He showcases Samus specific things really well. YB is really good overall but also the best Samus at using CS. IcyMist's run at CEO is one of the only noteworthy results she has had recently.
 

Das Koopa

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Top 8 Winners Side

ZeRo :4diddy: v :4cloud2: Tweek
MKLEO :4metaknight::4marth::4cloud2: v :4peach: Samsora
 

Das Koopa

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Top 8 Losers Side

WaDi :4mewtwo: v :4bayonetta: Salem
Gomamugitya :4lucario: v :4zss: Nairo

some notable people who are out

Mr. E (65th)
ScAtt (65th)
Pugwest (25th)
Pink Fresh (17th)
Ryuga (17th)
DKWill (17th)
NAKAT (17th)
6WX (17th)
Dabuz (13th)
Captain Zack (13th)
Marss (9th)
Zinoto (9th)
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Salem :4bayonetta:beats Samsora :4peach: and HOLLEE S#!T that was one epic set. Set 5 was edge of your set gasping for air close
 
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Ziodyne 21

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Salem beats MKLeo 3-1 I wonder why MKLeo decided to go :4cloud: in the last match of the set?

Because Tweek beat Salem in the winners side?
 
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Das Koopa

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KTAR XIX (November 19th) (Tristate) (455 Entrants) (Category 3)
1st: TSM | ZeRo :4diddy:
2nd: MVG | Salem :4bayonetta:
3rd: SF.HDG | MKLeo :4metaknight::4marth:
4th: NRG | Nairo :4zss:
5th: DMG | Tweek :4cloud2:
5th: Samsora :4peach:
7th: SS | WaDi :4mewtwo:
7th: Gomamugitya :4lucario:
9th: SS | Dark Wizzy :4mario:
9th: Sinji :4pacman:
9th: Zinoto :4diddy:
9th: DNL | Marss :4zss:
13th: Raffi-X :4rob:
13th: CaptainZack :4bayonetta:
13th: False :4marth::4sheik:
13th: RNG | Dabuz :rosalina:
 

Krysco

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Genuinely curious, when was the last time Zero attended a tournament and didn't get first? My memory may just be crap but it feels like every tournament he attends ends with him in first. I know there was a time either earlier this year or late last year where he didn't attend much due to an injury so when he came back from that, he may not have gotten first all the time. I also don't watch the matches so for all I know, every grandifnals could either be a train wreck for his opponent or could be super close. Most I recall is way back when, Ranai gave him some trouble but that was back in the prepatch days.

I also notice how he's always listed with Diddy and maybe Sheik? I don't remember if I've seen his name listed next to a Sheik head anytime recently or if I'm just remembering prepatch days. Wondering if maybe having a pocket Mega Man, Olimar or Luigi would help anyone vs him. Though it may not even be an mu issue. He could very well just be a step above everyone else even after his hiatus.

Should mention that I'm not complaining about his wins. He's a good player and uses a good character and deserves whatever wins he gets.
 

Ark of Silence101

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KTAR XIX
MKLeo :4marth: 2-1 Pinkfresh :4bayonetta:

MKLeo makes marth look reaaally good.
And yet Salem makes him look like a complete joke.
Salem beats MKLeo 3-1 I wonder why MKLeo decided to go :4cloud: in the last match of the set?

Because Tweek beat Salem in the winners side?
Who knows? What is true however is that :4bayonetta: is a nightmare for all 3 :4marth:, :4metaknight: and :4cloud2:.
 
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Das Koopa

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Collision XIV is where he got 4th by going out to Salem twice and that's the last tourney he lost. He's won 2 majors and a supermajor since.
 

Krysco

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Collision 14, I think? He got double-eliminated by Salem.
Looked it up and I'm not sure who he lost to but he did get 4th while Salem got first and it wasn't too terribly long ago, being on September 3rd. Wondering if that's an out-liar for him in the 1.1.6 meta or if my memory is just crap and he's lost more than I think he has. Probably gonna watch those matches later to see how close they were.
 
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