Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[MrGameguycolor]

I don't care if it got off the ground, I know this is impractical to use because you're first, causing a large gap of separation between Rosalina and Luma, second, you're making Rosalina's movements very telegraphed and predictable, or making Rosalina vulnerable in different situations, and lastly, this can only work if the opponent is near Luma, which is pretty nigh impossible with this desync technique.

Listen, this is a heavy departure of what works for Rosalina, and while you would want to believe that this is a good thing, the reality is is that this is just a gimmick that makes Rosalina and Luma both vulnerable. Sadly, I firmly don't believe that this can work in an optimal setting, and the Rosalina player will just go back to what actually works.

Dude, you haven't even seen how it functions in competitive play.

Chill.

 

[QualityQ]

Rosa's up b has surprisingly low endlag and is extremely hard to catch with slower characters if you're ledgetrapping traditionally. Don't immediately write it off.

Anyway, not sure if anyone's checked this yet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5dzx5e/comprehensive_smash_4_matchup_chart_for_all/
I'd recommend looking through it and saying whether or not things look right for your main. Sheik's looks almost perfect. Some things I disagree with, like Cloud actually being -2 while Jiggs is -1, but it's overall pretty satisfying. If you have a reddit account make sure to throw the man an upvote/gold for his hard work.

While it certainly is remarkable work, it's also a bit deceptive. For example Pit/Dark Pit don't even have Earth's opinion, in fact only one main from Chicago is considered who I don't think has played since January.

In short, it's good for the top 15x15, but treat the other data with a grain of salt.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

While it certainly is remarkable work, it's also a bit deceptive. For example Pit/Dark Pit don't even have Earth's opinion, in fact only one main from Chicago is considered who I don't think has played since January.

In short, it's good for the top 15x15, but treat the other data with a grain of salt.

Indeed.

Some of the lower and mid tier matchups are bonkers...

Like why does Marth vs Charizard +1 in Marth's favor but Lucina vs Charizard is +2 in Lucina's favor? How does Kirby beat Fox? How does Bowser go even with Sonic?

Things like that.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Kirby does beat fox tho.

 

[|RK|]

Kirby does beat fox tho.

To be fair, people go back and forth on that one.

I know Larry thinks Fox definitely loses, based on his matches with MikeKirby (and more recently, getting two-stocked by SmashG0D).

 

[Das Koopa]

ICYMIST BEAT DABUZ HjfghRTGHrThREHT

 

[Deleted member]

ICYMIST BEAT DABUZ HjfghRTGHrThREHT

WHAT TOURNAMENT IS THIS

 

[FeelMeUp]

Hope Dabuz isn't going through a severe character crisis. He's been slumping a bit recently.

 

[Das Koopa]

WHAT TOURNAMENT IS THIS

https://www.twitch.tv/battlevegas

grand finals set 2 going on right now

 

[Vyrnx]

Convenient timing lol
Edit: glad I tuned in for that sad Mario showing

 

[Deleted member]

dabuz got the runback and 3-0'd icy

why the bloody hell would you CP mario against rosa lol

 

[jet56]

im so confused as to how top 8 was even decided in the first place.

 

[Das Koopa]

So that solidifies Icy as the best Samus. Losers run was 3-0 Snoop, 3-0 Z, 3-2 Vash, 3-2 JK, and 3-2 Dabuz

 

[Deleted member]

So that solidifies Icy as the best Samus. Losers run was 3-0 Snoop, 3-0 Z, 3-2 Vash, 3-2 JK, and 3-2 Dabuz

out of all three active samus players in the world

good **** to Icy though, it's gonna be interesting to see more of her. Seeing her MU chart shows she has a rather optimistic opinion on Samus.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzoiW_RYiW9HJ7037LGhSfC6

rashidooooooo

 

[TDK]

Watching that stream it hit me how short Dabuz actually is.

Or TK's really tall.

 

[Megamang]

Robin wins 8 MU?

Im sorry, with a huge disjointed fair that ACs, projectiles confirming into either damage or significant healing for her, and a item breaking system that gives her a 18% throwable projectile, she does aiight.

Checkmate is good. People underestimate it till they play Dath... Robin killing you off a grab means a whole lot. it means a bad crossup roll is death. as is a bad spotdodge. or a bad aggro option... this is big, a powershield can kill you at 85. this works on almost the entire cast, get dashPS'd and die... this can happen to you!

Its super underestimated for sure. You gotta mix up your spacing well, or it can happen. So dont sleep on Robin.


Also if your recovery sucks, Ignus (arcthunder dair) is gonna laugh at you from 1/3rd at the ledge.

 

[Y2Kay]

Watching that stream it hit me how short Dabuz actually is.

Or TK's really tall.

Nah Dabuz is just that short lol

 

[NairWizard]

Rosalina is so... bad, honestly (relative to the top tiers). Most overrated character by far, how do people still see her as top 10? Dabuz is really really really good, but he could probably get the exact same results he gets now with Rosa with just solo Olimar. That's saying something.

Luma counterplay is really easy for most characters to pull off, even characters like Fox who don't have insta-blick moves on Luma, because Luma is so limited in what he can do movementwise. People are getting better at positioning over time, not worse, so that's making it harder for Rosa to do her thing and keep Luma alive despite the vast amount of Rosalina tech that Dabuz seems to develop and integrate into his gameplay.

Rosa can pivot f-tilt all day against the likes of Mario, but what does she do against a well-spaced move with disjoint, like Marth's f-air? The better they space, the fewer options Rosa has to protect herself and Luma, so all the spacers and zoners of the game should be getting better and better against her with every tournament, not worse.

The character just doesn't have a way of advancing her metagame to match others in the neutral, and that's a problem since neutral is her most important state.

 

[verbatim]

Rosa's a very polarizing character, like Ness. Very good advantage bad disadvantage. People like to focus on the negatives but at the end of the day they're still winning more than 90% of the cast.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWCHGgfiH8M

After watching Ito 3-1 Larry (And then get 3-0'd but moot point) I wondered two things:

1) "Is this 1.1.5?"
and
2) "Wow, Ito is really really good. With Leo having essentially dropped the character, would this open up a chance for someone else to be the best MK?"

Personally, I think if Leo isn't counted Ito is the best MK. He got 25th(?) at EVO and lost to two top 5 players (I think it was Nairo and Mr. R?), has wins over Tyrant in the Ditto, and has wins over Larry and possibly more people I'm not thinking of. Thoughts?

 

[Das Koopa]

Ito is easily the best solo MK but it's kind of a myth that Leo dropped the character soooo

 

[Monete]

So I was informed by our resident Mewtwo main today that Aba vs any relevant diddy is something along the lines of 0-12. I asked him about Rich Brown, Blue, Mew^2 and he said nope to all of them. He says he could see an argument for Mewtwo-Diddy becoming a 7:3 MU.

Dunno if there are any results conflicting this, but if it's true then that's kinda ridiculous. Even the Ness-Rosa MU has seen mid to high level Ness mains clutch out victories (if nothing else Gackt 2-0 over Atelier is evidence that it *can* be done).

Not to uh, set alarms off or anything, frankly I've never known that much about the specifics of this MU at a results-based level but Mewtwo mains seem to complain about it a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpkGSHhGhog&feature=youtu.be

Not super relevant player but Abadango defeated Paseriman former Pit player (i think 3rd best one behind Kuro and Earth). Paseriman defeated T in losers so he is not bad

 

[Fenny]

How does Kirby beat Fox?

Kirby's Utilt - Fox is a 90-10 MU in utilt's favour, that's why.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kirby does beat fox tho.

Kirby's Utilt - Fox is a 90-10 MU in utilt's favour, that's why.

Had no idea this was an opinion.

Still, mainly due to up tilt?

Does Fox just fall into it repeatedly or something?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Kirby still beats Fox. Fox has devastating landing traps on platform stages against him but stone is a very real threat on overextension that kills stupid early because of the angle it sends you at. Fox has very, very short range and Kirby can stalemate neutral with Fox's only "approach me" option so Fox is always forced to play at Kirby's rage. Doesn't help that Fox has almost no throw game on Kirby while Kirby's reward off a grab at 0 guarantees anywhere between 60-90%.
Kirby horrendously outrewards Fox off the hit, and the main reason the matchup isn't even worse is because Kirby can die early to Usmash/Uair/Bair.
Oh, yeah, and unsurprisingly.....Kirby's amazing at covering Fox's recovery options.

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin wins 8 MU?

Im sorry, with a huge disjointed fair that ACs, projectiles confirming into either damage or significant healing for her, and a item breaking system that gives her a 18% throwable projectile, she does aiight.

Checkmate is good. People underestimate it till they play Dath... Robin killing you off a grab means a whole lot. it means a bad crossup roll is death. as is a bad spotdodge. or a bad aggro option... this is big, a powershield can kill you at 85. this works on almost the entire cast, get dashPS'd and die... this can happen to you!

Its super underestimated for sure. You gotta mix up your spacing well, or it can happen. So dont sleep on Robin.


Also if your recovery sucks, Ignus (arcthunder dair) is gonna laugh at you from 1/3rd at the ledge.

Can people please stop being surprised about other people's opinions on Robin? Him winning an absurdly low number of MUs has been a thing since forever. I'm pretty sure most people think bad recovery and ground mobility means a winning MU...it's a big factor, but shouldn't all that's considered.

Honestly, these things are interesting, but not useful for mid tier and below.

 

[Fenny]

Had no idea this was an opinion.

Still, mainly due to up tilt?

Does Fox just fall into it repeatedly or something?

Well amongst other things, but that's the primary reason. Fox's silly disadvantage means that the moment Kirby gets an up tilt he's basically guaranteed to get combo'd, eating several feet to the jaw and probably a grab extention for 60% upwards.

 

[Deleted member]

Can people please stop being surprised about other people's opinions on Robin? Him winning an absurdly low number of MUs has been a thing since forever. I'm pretty sure most people think bad recovery and ground mobility means a winning MU...it's a big factor, but shouldn't all that's considered.

Honestly, these things are interesting, but not useful for mid tier and below.

I guess I should stop being surprised about being surprised on how the public views my character. There's gonna be misconceptions about him for a long, long time.

 

[Piipp]

Kameme losing to Nietono and Rain in the Japanese invitational is actually quite surprising given he has wins on ZeRo, Mr. R, and Void. Losing to Abadango and KEN could be expected but the fact that he also lost to Kirihara and T are also interesting considering the caliber of his play compared to the two.

He may have been having an off day because he didn't do well at all.

 

[my_T]

pretty sure Paseriman is the second best pit in the world unless i'm missing some big wins that kuro has gotten. Paseriman has taken sets off of players like Komorikiri, Kamemushi, You3 and a few more top players in Japan. He uses a variety of characters though i'm sure he used pit against the players I mentioned. He's also taken sets off of 9B (not sure who he used here), and T

his stats: http://smashrecord.harukisb.net/players/5197

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

This game has turned 2 years old today (Wii u version) and I am amazed that a top 5 is (relatively) undecided after all these years. Patches had a factor but a meta being unstable is a really fun meta and I enjoy the smash 4 metagame as of now. Maybe it's just me, but I like volatile games like smash 4 where characters can rise or fall, and the same goes for players. Hopefully this unstable metagame can continue

 

[Jamurai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWCHGgfiH8M

After watching Ito 3-1 Larry (And then get 3-0'd but moot point) I wondered two things:

1) "Is this 1.1.5?"
and
2) "Wow, Ito is really really good. With Leo having essentially dropped the character, would this open up a chance for someone else to be the best MK?"

Personally, I think if Leo isn't counted Ito is the best MK. He got 25th(?) at EVO and lost to two top 5 players (I think it was Nairo and Mr. R?), has wins over Tyrant in the Ditto, and has wins over Larry and possibly more people I'm not thinking of. Thoughts?

Ito's been the best MK (apart from Leo) since forever. He just doesn't go to very many events, especially outside of CA, I believe due to prioritising education. Good man I say. Anyhow, a set off of Larry is a pretty big deal for him, this matchup is pretty unanimously a slight loss for MK. He still has demons in (at least) VoiD and Nairo though.

Until recently, as well as Leo he's been the only one truly innovating and playing the character properly at a high level. I say 'until recently' because good MKs are on the rise, Oatmeal, Xane and Sect come to mind immediately but there are others including Arkaizer and Glacey.
Thanks to these guys as well as the oldies Leo, Ito and Tyrant (and occasionally Aba), MK's results have quietly been very good. I'm a mild pessimist when it comes to his MUs but I've been being convinced by sets I've been watching. For example, Oatmeal has said for a while that MK beats Marth, I didn't believe it was any better than even until now, the punish game on Marth is too good.

On the other hand, I looked at that matchup chart, someone's gonna have to explain to me how MK loses to Pikachu.
Willis says he thinks there are no -4 matchups in this game, but I disagree. For example, D3 vs Bayo, Mac vs Pac and Puff/Zelda vs MK seem pretty hopeless to me (at high level).

 

[ARGHETH]

On the other hand, I looked at that matchup chart, someone's gonna have to explain to me how MK loses to Pikachu.

Shockingly enough, it's not ESAM's fault this time (he put it as even). Jbandrew thought it was 40-60, while Tachyon and Rideae both put it as 45:55.

 

[Yikarur]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzoiW_RYiW9HJ7037LGhSfC6

rashidooooooo

I can't believe there are people who complain about Mii Brawler "Jank" while something like this exists. (And this is just one of many examples)

 

[TDK]

https://oddshot.tv/shot/UzoiW_RYiW9HJ7037LGhSfC6

rashidooooooo

This game has some really strange design choices.

Why is the last hitbox of multihits so disjointed?
Why do the non-final hits of most multihit moves have absurd knockback? (See: Ally killing 6WX at 0% with the first hit of up-b)

 

[Jamurai]

This game has some really strange design choices.

Why is the last hitbox of multihits so disjointed?
Why do the non-final hits of most multihit moves have absurd knockback? (See: Ally killing 6WX at 0% with the first hit of up-b)

1. Because this compensates for people trying to DI out of the multihits and catches a wider area where the victim may end up.
2. Because base knockback scales with rage. For some reason.

 

[DanGR]

Rosalina is so... bad, honestly (relative to the top tiers). Most overrated character by far, how do people still see her as top 10? Dabuz is really really really good, but he could probably get the exact same results he gets now with Rosa with just solo Olimar. That's saying something.

Luma counterplay is really easy for most characters to pull off, even characters like Fox who don't have insta-blick moves on Luma, because Luma is so limited in what he can do movementwise. People are getting better at positioning over time, not worse, so that's making it harder for Rosa to do her thing and keep Luma alive despite the vast amount of Rosalina tech that Dabuz seems to develop and integrate into his gameplay.

Rosa can pivot f-tilt all day against the likes of Mario, but what does she do against a well-spaced move with disjoint, like Marth's f-air? The better they space, the fewer options Rosa has to protect herself and Luma, so all the spacers and zoners of the game should be getting better and better against her with every tournament, not worse.

The character just doesn't have a way of advancing her metagame to match others in the neutral, and that's a problem since neutral is her most important state.

I strongly disagree that she doesn't have a way of advancing her neutral more than other characters. In fact, I think hers still has some of the most potential. There's a whole world of opportunity in utilizing perfect pivots, fox trots, and extended dash dancing for repositioning- really just her movement in general has a LOT of room for growth.

Id argue there's room for growth in using her aerials in ways that mask her intentions. Lunar landing can be used as a block string starter, giving her a frame advantage on block with bair and nair, assuming frame tight autocancels. Repeated lunar landing with either fair or bair repositions luma behind or in front Luma. Repeated jabx2 for spacing, pivoting, RARing, crouching- these all manipulate Luma's position in ways that can supplement her aerial game, but it's relatively unexplored as a direct supplement to depthful movement techniques, the latter of which most Rosa players tend to ignore in favor of a slower, walk-based neutral. Walking is great and all, but if you can reposition yourself in a less telegraphed, speedier way that also maintains your standing options, then I see no reason not to.

 

[PoptartLord]

This game has some really strange design choices.

Why is the last hitbox of multihits so disjointed?
Why do the non-final hits of most multihit moves have absurd knockback? (See: Ally killing 6WX at 0% with the first hit of up-b)

For your first question, there's a couple of (potential) reasons.
1) Dramatic flair! small hit, small hit, small hit, explosive finishing hit!!
2) That's the hit that sends the opponent flying, so to help make sure it connects the hitbox is increased a bit.
3) I've read several times that in Brawl it was possible to SDI out of a lot (all?) of multihit moves. Perhaps this is another countermeasure against that?

For your second question, I believe it has to do with the physics of keeping any opponent trapped in a fast-moving multihit move. Each of the little hits have to launch the opponent back into where the attacker will be when the next little hit in the sequence goes off. In order to do this those little hits need insane knockback values to keep up. Normally this isn't an issue because the overtuned hits lead into the final hit, which has standard damage/knockback properties that overrides the previous trajectory. What happens in the above clip is an edge case where things don't line up correctly and the opponent broke sequence with tragic results. As for why things didn't line up correctly... I can't be 100% sure. It might have had to do with how one tiny part of the opponent's hurtbox was moving so that it was glanced by the first hit but then when the next hit went off the opponent's "I just got hit" animation hurtbox wasn't out far enough... throw in some Z-axis shenanigans from both sides.... gah, I just don't know.

Oh, and if the Ally/6WX moment is the one I'm thinking of, that's something different. They were both within arm's reach of the top blastzone when Mario up-b'd, and the first hit was enough to put Sonic over it. The difference is that, were they both lower, Sonic would have been carried/trapped as normal. And since only the first hit connected Sonic only had .3% or so on him which wasn't enough to trigger the display to show 1% yet. If I'm thinking of something else let me know and I'll remove this paragraph.

I can't believe there are people who complain about Mii Brawler "Jank" while something like this exists. (And this is just one of many examples)

If this was able to be pulled off with any level of consistency there would be a lot more complaining. As of now it's 100% accidental. But yeah, nobody ever mentions how Brawler "Jank" leaves a non-heavy character with a much shorter recovery move....

-PoptartLord

Edit: It seems like there are some specific situations where it can be done more reliably as outlined in others' posts below. By "100% accidental" I was referring to throwing out something like Screw Attack for damage and it unintentionally sequence broke for the kill.

 

[TDK]

As of now it's 100% accidental. But yeah, nobody ever mentions how Brawler "Jank" leaves a non-heavy character with a much shorter recovery move....

Consisdering Icy did it against Rosa too IIRC I don't think she did it accidentally.