Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[my_T]

Oh yeah and like someone mentioned before, there was that one set where Earth beat Tweek 2-0 with Pit. I'd also like to add on Nairo's Dark Pit beating Tweek 3-0. Pit's matchup against Cloud, kind of un-explored but probably an even one given their current record.

Was the set between Nairo and Tweek recorded? I would like to see this

 

[Das Koopa]

Also, Das Koopa , you notice anything else about that list? That you know, only 5 players are there?

At this point, I think it's fair to point out that character viability and tip-top results are directly linked, considering we'd all be freaking out if ESAM's Samus tore it up at EVO. If we're seeing a consolidated portion of the cast take tournaments, that portion of the cast may be, in no order, the best characters in the game, and the ones truly capable of running to the finish line.

And no other character gets near as much flack as Cloud does for not being on that list. also fails to make that list, but we all know just how good she is.

Even if we account for secondary usage, Sheik has a much better track record at the top level than Cloud does. Out of the tournies I noted...

VoiD:
Pound 2016: 5th
CEO 2016: 9th
EVO 2016: 4th
2GGT: KTAR Saga: 3rd
Super Smash Con 2016: 4th
2GGT: Abadango Saga: 9th
The Big House 6: 5th

Mr. R:
Pound 2016: 4th
GOML 2016: 7th
CEO 2016: 5th
EVO 2016: 17th
2GGT: KTAR Saga: 5th
Super Smash Con 2016: 3rd
Umebura S.A.T: 5th
The Big House 6: 4th

Tweek:
Pound 2016: 5th
CEO 2016: 17th
EVO 2016: 33rd
Super Smash Con 2016: 13th
The Big House 6: 13th

Mew2King:
GOML 2016: 5th
CEO 2016: 97th
Super Smash Con 2016: 257th
Shine 2016: 5th
The Big House 6: 25th

Mew2King is probably the best solo Cloud, going by sets, but he's very inconsistent.

I fail to see how being a secondary/co-main lessens the worth of their victories.

When a solo main is juxtaposed against a multi-main where the multi-main garners more notable sets and more successful results integrating the less successful solo main's character, it absolutely calls into question just how viable that character is without backed-up secondary. There's the implication that the character has matchup pitfalls that require the user to invest time and energy into picking up other characters in order to have a better shot.

This is not the blueprint of a top 3 character. Top 10 in a game this heavy in weird matchups? Certainly, considering Cloud's favorable traits and potential for future meta development.

 

[|RK|]

But if ESAM had a good Cloud, would we be freaking out if he tore it up at EVO?

I think using results in this matter works to separate top/high tier characters from the rest (if only barely), but not nearly as well for the top 10/15-ish characters. IMO.

 

[Rizen]

How good is Cloud's blade beam? He almost never using it because charging limit is the better option and when Cloud has limit he doesn't want to waste it. If Cloud couldn't manually charge limit I can see BB have some uses. It's too laggy to throw out often but travels a long distance with good vertical coverage. It probably would be used vs ledge options/recoveries and as a anti-landing tool.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How good is Cloud's blade beam? He almost never using it because charging limit is the better option and when Cloud has limit he doesn't want to waste it. If Cloud couldn't manually charge limit I can see BB have some uses. It's too laggy to throw out often but travels a long distance with good vertical coverage. It probably would be used vs ledge options/recoveries and as a anti-landing tool.

Blame Beam is a fastish moving massive hitbox that stalls him in the air and can be b reversed/wavebounced unpredictably for better mobility, better recovery, and potential combos. Too bad its laggy as **** and overshadowed by Limit Charge and his normals. Cloud players don't use it in neutral because they'd rather force an approach by charging limit than shut down an approach in a less efficient way. I only ever use it edgeguards like b reverse BB while buffering a nair for good option coverage and for covering my ass while I try to get back to the stage.

 

[Yikarur]

On Normal Shield ZSS OoS .. upB is frame 4, jab is frame 8, uptilt is frame 10 and her grab can punish a lot of a things a normal grab can't punish (spaced rising aerials that are forced to land).
It's not "top class", but it's pretty good. Of course you're only using upB is you know it's a true punish so "it's punishable if shielded" doesn't really matter.
Sheik OoS has a frame 6 grab, a frame 7 nair, and frame 9 jab/ frame 12 ftilt.
Diddy OoS has a frame 6 grab, frame 11 dtilt, Diddys item throw forward is frame 7 and Diddys item throw backwards is frame 9 (and you are rarely hitting as early as possible)

Frame Datawise ZSS OoS does indeed look pretty well to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What do you think Greninja:Cloud is?

I have no idea? If I had to take a guess I'd say it's reasonably close.

 

[Jamurai]

So just in that entirely fictional, hypothetical situation, ZSS would not be able to carelessly Zair in his space, leaving her SH options to nair, up air, and tomahawk grab (DJ away just resets neutral). Now, let's imagine that Cloud has an INTANGIBLE frame 7 burst option that also lowers his profile. That'd make for a pretty decent anti-air, right??? A move like that would almost be purposely designed to counter SH approaches or something.

Sarcastic responses aside, it is important for most of this community to know that flowchart options are not bad. Knowing what you can do in response to seeing your opponent do something is huge and makes reacting to/punishing said options much easier. If you already know what you can do/are going to do, you spend more time focusing on your opponent rather than thinking about your options.

I think the best example of this is . He has tons of fancy combos and footstool options, but he also has very simple buttons that just beat or punish certain options.

Opponent likes to approach with SH aerials? Heavy up tilt anti airs them clean.
Opponent carelessly touched your shield? Frame 5 d smash that does 17%!
Opponent too shield happy? Heavy F tilt destroys shields.

Yes, there is more to those interactions that just that. There are mind games that can be employed. But when a character has a "DO NOT DO X/PUNISH X WITH Y" button, the opponent can't do much but respect that option. You might be able to play around it, but you're playing a dangerous game.

The vast majority of characters have options to counter the vast majority of the opponent's options. You talk as though Player A's option beating Player B's option is the be-all-end-all of it, and just because that is the case, Player B's option is significantly less effective. You talk as though how safe Player A's option is, how versatile it is in terms of timing, how usable it is on reaction as opposed to read etc. doesn't really matter.

I'm gonna assume you're not dumb, you know this already. For example, if Cloud Dtilt is purposely designed to counter SH approaches, ie. one of the most common things to see in the neutral game at all levels, you'd see it used all the time right? Except you don't. The reason is Cloud Dtilt is really unsafe. It is high-risk, high-reward. You're not going to use it often against ZSS because committing to a high-risk move against ZSS (especially with a vulnerable recovery) is asking to get killed or get half your stock eaten. It is quite easily baited by a character with some of the best overall mobility stats and frame data. It is, in fact, Cloud who is playing the dangerous game by preparing to counter ZSS's versatile aerial approaches with Dtilt.

If you think knowing what one can do in response to seeing an opponent do something is huge, then the opponent knowing how safe this likely option is (did you really suggest NOT thinking about your options much? This is how you get conditioned and blown up) and how to punish it (in the case of Cloud Dtilt, easily) is enormous. This comes under matchup knowledge.

Don't say dismissively "yes, there is more to those interactions than that". This stuff is more important than X beats Y.

It's easy to talk in black-and-white and not mention the caveats of baiting, reactions/reads, risk-reward etc., and it's easy when discussing metagames to talk about something's strengths and forget to mention its weaknesses. It doesn't help tho, cause then people just respond with "uh no, doesn't work like that" and get sarcastic and unproductive. Think and discuss relatively and we'll get further and learn more.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If we're talking top class OOS games, don't forget about and especially .

 

[Deleted member]

Even if is not a particularly relevant character, people are on point when they say he has amazing OoS game.

Super Jump Punch in of itself ruins lives.

 

[irokex13]

The vast majority of characters have options to counter the vast majority of the opponent's options. You talk as though Player A's option beating Player B's option is the be-all-end-all of it, and just because that is the case, Player B's option is significantly less effective. You talk as though how safe Player A's option is, how versatile it is in terms of timing, how usable it is on reaction as opposed to read etc. doesn't really matter.

I'm gonna assume you're not dumb, you know this already. For example, if Cloud Dtilt is purposely designed to counter SH approaches, ie. one of the most common things to see in the neutral game at all levels, you'd see it used all the time right? Except you don't. The reason is Cloud Dtilt is really unsafe. It is high-risk, high-reward. You're not going to use it often against ZSS because committing to a high-risk move against ZSS (especially with a vulnerable recovery) is asking to get killed or get half your stock eaten. It is quite easily baited by a character with some of the best overall mobility stats and frame data. It is, in fact, Cloud who is playing the dangerous game by preparing to counter ZSS's versatile aerial approaches with Dtilt.

If you think knowing what one can do in response to seeing an opponent do something is huge, then the opponent knowing how safe this likely option is (did you really suggest NOT thinking about your options much? This is how you get conditioned and blown up) and how to punish it (in the case of Cloud Dtilt, easily) is enormous. This comes under matchup knowledge.

Don't say dismissively "yes, there is more to those interactions than that". This stuff is more important than X beats Y.

It's easy to talk in black-and-white and not mention the caveats of baiting, reactions/reads, risk-reward etc., and it's easy when discussing metagames to talk about something's strengths and forget to mention its weaknesses. It doesn't help tho, cause then people just respond with "uh no, doesn't work like that" and get sarcastic and unproductive. Think and discuss relatively and we'll get further and learn more.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

If we're talking top class OOS games, don't forget about and especially .

I don't think I'm making my point clearly enough, so instead, I'll just try to ask a question.

Is it a bad idea to jump at Mario when you're around 120%?

 

[HoSmash4]

If you mean land on him, yeah

 

[Jamurai]

I don't think I'm making my point clearly enough, so instead, I'll just try to ask a question.

Is it a bad idea to jump at Mario when you're around 120%?

Yes. But the reason is not just "Usmash beats most stuff".

Usmash is very safe, and when the opponent is at 120% it is low-risk, high-reward because it will end them if it hits and is hard to punish.
Baiting the Usmash is high-risk in itself because the hitbox is massive, and you're definitely not guaranteed to punish it because of its low endlag. If you try and punish it and fail, you'll eat another one and die.

That's why it's such a good move. Not just cause it beats stuff.

 

[Piipp]

Anecdotal evidence via Kameme beating Komorikiri. Nothing major.

It's like someone said earlier, that's a terrible way to define a Matchup.

MegaMan vs Cloud, imo, is an even matchup. MegaMan has to play footsies with Cloud and stay right outside his sword range and shoot pellets to prevent him from charging limit. The thing is, whenever Cloud does have limit, he's much harder to hit. Cloud players that have experience in the matchup know to keep their limit, due to the boost in mobility they get from having it fully charged. Cloud benefits highly from having the boost in mobility because of the fact that MegaMan struggles to get any damage if he just keeps jumping around and throwing out lingering hitboxes. Not even gonna mention how Cloud's Nair beats pellets in some situations.

MegaMan benefits highly from stage control (like he does in pretty much every MU) against Cloud. Throw Cloud offstage, edgeguard him, blah blah blah bad recovery blah blah blah. But, one thing to note is that MegaMan's Dair is one of the most consistent moves to end a Cloud's stock, while he's recovering, due to it's range and massive disjoint.

Both characters have something unique in the MU that can help them to seal stocks or just deal straight up damage. MegaMan can hardly ever land against Cloud, Cloud can hardly ever get back on stage. In this matchup, it's all about positioning and microspacing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's like someone said earlier, that's a terrible way to define a Matchup.

Except I'm not trying to define anything. If Kameme beating Komorikiri is of no value to you, then you may want to consider that Scatt has beaten M2K as well. I don't particularly care to convince you so if that's not good enough it's your problem.

 

[Jamurai]

Smash (and arguably every FG) is essentially managing risk/reward, and trying to drive that ratio as low as possible, as much as possible.

Any move which is low-risk, high-reward in a common situation is a great move.

 

[irokex13]

Yes. But the reason is not just "Usmash beats most stuff".

Usmash is very safe, and when the opponent is at 120% it is low-risk, high-reward because it will end them if it hits and is hard to punish.
Baiting the Usmash is high-risk in itself because the hitbox is massive, and you're definitely not guaranteed to punish it because of its low endlag. If you try and punish it and fail, you'll eat another one and die.

That's why it's such a good move. Not just cause it beats stuff.

So you understand that, while you most certainly can bait out the move and punish it, a SH approach is generally a bad idea against Mario. It's usually just not worth trying to force the situation.

The Mario player can be conditioned, he could get baited, but most of the time, if you jump in, even if you tried to bait it out and punish, Mario still has the advantage on you jumping in because his up smash is literally designed to counter SH approaches.

I fully acknowledge that Cloud's d tilt is not some unbeatable option that shuts out ZSS' SH game. However, it is something she MUST respect and be aware of and I believe it's something that Cloud's should abuse more. ZSS definitely does have options to mix it up and punish Cloud, but it is generally not a good idea for her to SH into him, because she's likely to just get anti-air'd.

And while we're on the topic, Mario's up smash is seen as a low risk kill option, while Cloud's d tilt is stated to be risk.

Mario up smash: Around -13 on shield drop, -20 on OoS options. It's frame 9-12 with a FAF of 40, so that's 28 frames of endlag.
Cloud D tilt: Around -20 on shield drop, -27 on OoS options. It's frame 7-17 with a FAF of 41, so that's 24 frames of endlag.

Mario's is safer on shield, but it actually easier to whiff punish than Cloud's D tilt. Cloud's d tilt is also able to cross up the opponent's shield. Still ain't safe, but it's something. This isn't me saying that Cloud's d tilt is safer than Mario's up smash or that it's as safe as Mario's up smash. But it's not as vulnerable and high risk and people are making it out to be.

 

[BunbUn129]

While we're discussing design, here's a little exercise for you guys.

If your main is not top tier, name the smallest possible change that you can think of that would make your main top tier.

If your main is already top tier, name the smallest possible change that could potentially knock your main out of top tier.

Also explain why the change would have such a large impact on the character's relative power.

Note that I said smallest. Nothing ridiculous like "Bowser suddenly has a kill throw starting at 20!" or "Sheik no longer has Bouncing Fish!"

I'll start with Pikachu (because I'm sure someone else will do Bayonetta anyway):
increase up-air damage to 8% (from 4) with relevant knockback adjustments

Probably an obvious one. Giving Pikachu a decent aerial KO option at reasonable percents (still nothing crazy because up-air's hitbox won't permit silliness) and also a much stronger juggling tool makes his mediocre advantage state into a pretty good one, thereby patching up the character's only real flaw.

Give Shuttle Loop an auto-link angle and MK becomes top-tier again.

One result of the up air angle change is that up air more frequently sends characters into the strong hit of SL 1, especially if they DI away on up air. The sweetspot of SL 1 has a strong tendency to knock opponents out of the finishing hit. Super fast-fallers can hard-punish MK in this situation, with Fox notably being able to land and do a running up smash before MK can act again. MK's damage-per-hit is quite bad and none of his other KO'ing options can be set-up as reliable, so doing 6%/9% instead of 12%/15% and possibly failing to score a KO throw a wrench into his general game-plan.

Shuttle Loop connecting more reliably would make MK's reward more consistent and significantly better.

Making SL a single hit move like in Brawl would be even better, but obviously that's not a very small change, so forget that.

 

[Piipp]

Except I'm not trying to define anything. If Kameme beating Komorikiri is of no value to you, then you may want to consider that Scatt has beaten M2K as well. I don't particularly care to convince you so if that's not good enough it's your problem.

It isn't of no value to me. It does hold value but it's also a matter of player skill and matchup familiarity (which is why M2K lost).

Besides, it's not like Kameme beats Komo every time they play. They tend to go back and forth.

 

[Piipp]

ignore this

 

[Floor]

It isn't of no value to me. It does hold value but it's also a matter of player skill and matchup familiarity (which is why M2K lost).

Besides, it's not like Kameme beats Komo every time they play. They tend to go back and forth.

You have a point I feel everyone should see; one win against a player means close to squat. Consistency is valued

 

[Jamurai]

So you understand that, while you most certainly can bait out the move and punish it, a SH approach is generally a bad idea against Mario. It's usually just not worth trying to force the situation.

The Mario player can be conditioned, he could get baited, but most of the time, if you jump in, even if you tried to bait it out and punish, Mario still has the advantage on you jumping in because his up smash is literally designed to counter SH approaches.

I fully acknowledge that Cloud's d tilt is not some unbeatable option that shuts out ZSS' SH game. However, it is something she MUST respect and be aware of and I believe it's something that Cloud's should abuse more. ZSS definitely does have options to mix it up and punish Cloud, but it is generally not a good idea for her to SH into him, because she's likely to just get anti-air'd.

And while we're on the topic, Mario's up smash is seen as a low risk kill option, while Cloud's d tilt is stated to be risk.

Mario up smash: Around -13 on shield drop, -20 on OoS options. It's frame 9-12 with a FAF of 40, so that's 28 frames of endlag.
Cloud D tilt: Around -20 on shield drop, -27 on OoS options. It's frame 7-17 with a FAF of 41, so that's 24 frames of endlag.

Mario's is safer on shield, but it actually easier to whiff punish than Cloud's D tilt. Cloud's d tilt is also able to cross up the opponent's shield. Still ain't safe, but it's something. This isn't me saying that Cloud's d tilt is safer than Mario's up smash or that it's as safe as Mario's up smash. But it's not as vulnerable and high risk and people are making it out to be.

My point is basically Mario's Usmash should be respected much more than Cloud's Dtilt by opponents who approach from the air, simply because its risk/reward is much lower. Because of this, Mario Usmash is used much more often in competitive play against short hops, and if Clouds use Dtilt more, opponents will punish them accordingly.

Therefore, it is very important to take risk/reward and other things into account when talking about character tools, because they directly impact the tools' relevance.

Also, difference in safety is not only in numbers, but also in that Mario Usmash does way more damage and hence shield pushback, and its hitbox is bigger and more disjointed, making it harder to whiff-punish. Often Cloud finishes a blocked Dtilt right next to the opponent.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

And the conversation just got monopolized by arguing just how good/not good cloud is. A lot of people are on tilt about this character. I thought we were switching to discussion about what stages could be added legally legitimately. Instead it turns back into character on character matchups with cloud. I'm starting to get annoyed with people talking about him, can we talk about something else?

 

[Megamang]

The funny thing about that heavily sarcastic post is, im pretty sure the sweetspot would hit Cloud if the move was timed better and im damn sure a dtilt against a retreating zair is a horrible, horrible option.


If ZSS notices a trend of "i space with zair twice, and he dtilts", shes gonna space with zair once then destroy Clod for free.


Megaman does well because he has a natural answer to Clod, characters that have to figure out a way to deal with a giant sword with good frame data tend to struggle. Other zoners with a natural answer such as Olimar and Villager tend to be so slow they get btfo in disadvantage.

And everyone should be able to dash-in powershield Cloud's AC nair and dair, and to a lesser extent bair and fair.

Pellets also turn you around, which is nice vs anyone with better bairs than fairs (majority of the cast).

Oh, and uair is a solid way to juggle Cloud, low risk and all that, beats dair, and eager AD out of uair eats either another uair or bair. Megaman has meaningful options here is all anyone is saying, i think its winning but id definitely settle for 45:55 in a debate.

 

[Mega-Spider]

And the conversation just got monopolized by arguing just how good/not good cloud is. A lot of people are on tilt about this character. I thought we were switching to discussion about what stages could be added legally legitimately. Instead it turns back into character on character matchups with cloud. I'm starting to get annoyed with people talking about him, can we talk about something else?

Buddy, as long as Cloud is a relevant threat in the meta, people aren't going to stop talking about him.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Cloud is becoming a hot topic again since people are beginning to question if he really is dominant and overwhelming he was made out to be a while ago.

I see people beginning to exploit his weakness more and more and developing counterplay.
Plus he has 2 notably poor MU's in top/high tiers being and

Who are both really prevalent in the currebt competitive meta and both of them have been getting more success than as solo Main

Basically people opinions on him are changing from the latest 4BR tier list where he was ranked # 2
Where many people thinkig he is not top 3, and possibly not in the top 5

No doubt he is still very strong and top 10 his overall results are still too strong to say otherwise. But so far his recent success is coming for from being a secondary/ pocket than going solo

 

[irokex13]

My point is basically Mario's Usmash should be respected much more than Cloud's Dtilt by opponents who approach from the air, simply because its risk/reward is much higher. Because of this, Mario Usmash is used much more often in competitive play against short hops, and if Clouds use Dtilt more, opponents will punish them accordingly.

Therefore, it is very important to take risk/reward and other things into account when talking about character tools, because they directly impact the tools' relevance.

Also, difference in safety is not only in numbers, but also in that Mario Usmash does way more damage and hence shield pushback, and its hitbox is bigger and more disjointed, making it harder to whiff-punish. Often Cloud finishes a blocked Dtilt right next to the opponent.

I still feel like you are missing the point. It is BAD if ZSS lands a SH aerial on me. I can die from that. So if I have something that actively discourages her from jumping in on me, that's a good thing. I have accomplished my goal by making her hesitant to choose the SH approach option.

This isn't some magical theorycrafting I'm doing either. This is what I've learned from playing against actual people in my state. Against ZSS, Sheik, Ryu, Pikachu, Falcon, Fox. If they SH in with an aerial, I d tilt and punish them. Yes, they can mix it up and punish me if I get too predictable with it. But I have accomplished my goal of making them wary of my d tilt. Everything after that is where mix ups and conditioning starts to take place. BUT nothing can override the fact that Cloud can anti air with his d tilt.

Megamang I usually get sarcastic when people are adamantly refusing to acknowledge whatever point I'm trying to make. Like, instead of just trying to argue with me, they could spend less than 5 minutes in training mode to see something simple like Cloud ALWAYS being able to duck ZSS Zair. But hey, I don't test things. I just make up stuff about Cloud to spread misinformation on Smashboards.

Edit: Ziodyne 21 It's also posts like that that I have a problem with. Not only is there next to nothing backing up your statement, but ultimately, stating a top 3 or top 5 is meaningless. I've asked this question several times before and I've consistently been ignored. What is the difference between top 3 and top 5 in this game? What gap in power or relevance is there between number 4 and number 7 on these top tier lists? We can barely even make MU charts for these top tiers, so how are we going to be able to order them in strength? That makes NO sense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It isn't of no value to me. It does hold value but it's also a matter of player skill and matchup familiarity (which is why M2K lost).

Besides, it's not like Kameme beats Komo every time they play. They tend to go back and forth.

You have a point I feel everyone should see; one win against a player means close to squat. Consistency is valued

So the two best MegaMan players in the world both having a winning record against the best Cloud player in the world and arguably the best solo Cloud player in the USA is not consistent and exclusively a matter of skill that has nothing to do with the characters whatsoever?

Yeah ...






























... no.

 

[TDK]

https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-4/voting/242175

We could end up with Brood, Raito, and You3 all at the same international tournament.

 

[Mega-Spider]

~ Gheb ~
I think the sets between Kameme v Komorikiri and ScAtt v M2K really need to be valued. Those sets can say a lot about both players and the MU in general at top level. I'll agree that there should be more sets to really come to a definitive conclusion about a MU, but those sets need to be taken seriously.

 

[verbatim]

How many times have Scatt and M2K actually played though? And/or what is the overall set record?

 

[Das Koopa]

ScAtt has a 6-0 record in Mew2King in games in 2016, as far as I can find. 2 3-0s (Fusion 3, WTFox 2)

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/795582105078157312
https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/795581911951347712
Dabuz's top 3 with his opinions on them. I wouldn't agree with Cloud in top 3 but I do agree with his thoughts on bayo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Did Sheik stop existing or something? It's like there's some sort of unspoken agreement among top level players to never mention her when it comes to the game's best characters even though virtually all the reasons used for Bayonetta apply to her just as much.

Like, it's one thing when people argue that Diddy and Bayonetta are better than Sheik .... but Cloud? Seriously? Mr. "I've never done **** as a solo character at a major tournament" is supposedly better now than Sheik, who placed within the top 5 -if not higher- of literally every supermajor since the game came out? Kids these days, man ...

 

[Deleted member]

Looking at the tier list, it seems like none of the super heavyweights are considered "good", seeing that all of are mid tier or lower.

I'm curious. Since Brawl has a High Tier super heavyweight, what did Brawl and/or Snake do right?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So thats Mr.R, Salem and now Dabuz that say is top 3 or the best

(Am I missing any other pro player thoughts on her?)

ZeRo also said something similar in that Bayo does not lose any MU's "bad enough" that winning would be too much of a challenge in his updated 1.1.6 Bayo analysis.

I dunno I still say the MU vs is 55:45 at least for Diddy

 

[Radical Larry]

Looking at the tier list, it seems like none of the super heavyweights are considered "good", seeing that all of are mid tier or lower.

I'm curious. Since Brawl has a High Tier super heavyweight, what did Brawl and/or Snake do right?

Snake is a top tier Super Heavyweight due to some very incredibly fast attacks that have power to them, an attack (Up Tilt) that's openly deceptive, unarguably the best DACUS in Brawl, which improves his mobility options tenfold, great aerial game and projectile game, as well as one of the best recoveries in that game. I'm no hardcore Brawl fanatic, but that's all of what I assume.

Anyways, Super Heavyweights in this game [Smash 4] in particular are held back by their super massive weight, meaning they get juggled and combo'd easily, lack of options to get down vertically, leading into a poor vertical disadvantaged state for most of them, terrible top and high tier MUs, exploitable recoveries, etc. Their main problem is their size. Whereas Snake was thin framed and stood nearly upright, as well as had good defensive options and attack options for his class, every single super in this game is massive and has poor options in disadvantaged state [although DK has a pretty good standing as it is].

 

[Deleted member]

Dedede wasn't high tier in Brawl, he's upper mid.

I think it's very nice we are in a meta where there is no concrete best character. It could be either from the looks of it honestly.

 

[HoSmash4]

Looking at the tier list, it seems like none of the super heavyweights are considered "good", seeing that all of are mid tier or lower.

I'm curious. Since Brawl has a High Tier super heavyweight, what did Brawl and/or Snake do right?

He didnt have a ridiculous hitbox like all the other heavyweights. Theres a lot more factors of course which a brawl veteran could briefly touch on.

 

[Fenny]

Looking at the tier list, it seems like none of the super heavyweights are considered "good", seeing that all of are mid tier or lower.

I'm curious. Since Brawl has a High Tier super heavyweight, what did Brawl and/or Snake do right?

Brawl's mechanics were a blessing for Dedede, who happened to have among the best grab games amongst the cast. His projectile was far more versatile than his current one, he generally had better power and frame data to couple with his impressive range, was hard as hell to gimp and lived forever.

Snake had amazing stage control and camping abilities with his ***load of explosives, his tilts were dumb, DACUS and again he was hard to gimp. What superheavies lack in this game are any defining qualities that balance the mobility and hurtbox problems that normally plague them. Bowser didn't - he was trash. DK didn't - he was trash. It's not impossible for a superheavy to be good but it's a bit of a lucky dice roll to get a correct balance for them.

 

[Piipp]

So the two best MegaMan players in the world both having a winning record against the best Cloud player in the world and arguably the best solo Cloud player in the USA is not consistent and exclusively a matter of skill that has nothing to do with the characters whatsoever?

Yeah ...






























... no.

Nobody said that skill was the only factor. Matchup familiarity definitely is a factor, which ties into character choice. A MegaMan player is definitely going to have more experience against Cloud than the other way around.

Name me a relevant MegaMan player in Florida or in Japan that isn't Kamemushi.

I'll wait.