Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARISTOS]

View attachment 121084

I'm pretty Sure Dyr was High on something when he made this

Anyone with Zinnia as their prof pic has questionable taste and is not worth listening to.

 

[bc1910]

It's actually kinda sad you say this. It just proves the fact that most people are sheep, and that deviating too much from the general opinion can make you seen as being a troll? From what I understand from your post at least. If you were to see who I thought are top characters in the game you would probably think I'm absolutely insane.

In my opinion as long as your opinions are well justified it should be looked at seriously.

Sheep? His list isn't massively different from general opinion. Swap ZSS and Corrin and you have the exact same top 10 as everyone else.

His triggering statements are causing more of an upset than anything else. Taken at face value his list only has 3 or 4 placements that are actually controversial. Pika, Corrin, Palu, Robin... Peach is a bit high but it's not uncommon to see her in high tier.

Not to say it's not a questionable list, but don't act like it's some groundbreaking deviation from the norm.

Anyone with Zinnia as their prof pic has questionable taste and is not worth listening to.

As if her battle theme didn't make up for everything else she did.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You dont understand the character at even the most simple levels if you suggested buffing his aerials, and then cited these reasonings as to why he needs changes.

His problem is not getting juggled. yeah it sucks, but thats not what keeps him from shining, and its a flaw he really should have as screwing up his god like ground game deserves a punishing. Its losing the percent or stock lead, and then not having an answer to platform shield camping. Thats how macs get timed out for free.

The only things he could really use to prevent these things are giving him a higher initial jump, as this would allow him to reach the sv and lower dream land platforms without having to burn a jump. Giving his aerials increased shield damage would be amother way to discourage platform camping. Another route would be buffing his pitiful grab range and speeding it up, because as it is now, mac has very few safe on shield options, and no reliable ways to beat shield in high level play.

Nice nitpicking (as I've already listed his problems to platforms).

Little Mac won't just have his aerial game buffed, or be completely rounded out; he'll just have an additional option for platform camping, in exchange for toning down his extremely powerful options (like Dtilt and Dsmash).

Little Mac's design is waaaaaaay too Polarizing.

 

[Mega-Spider]

isn't high tier. Her moveset is too mixed in how good or bad they are (not to mention, her pretty bad disadvantage state and lackluster frame data), keep her from being high tier. She does have some pretty good throws and her U-Air is amazing. I've been playing her lately (I like her quite a bit), and I don't remember who said this, but Palutena's basically a better . She's a character that's built for defensive play, a style of play that isn't seen very often in competitive play. Palutena's frame data really keeps her from being high tier. She's probably low tier at best.

 

[Deleted member]

isn't high tier. Her moveset is too mixed in how good or bad they are (not to mention, her pretty bad disadvantage state and lackluster frame data), keep her from being high tier. She does have some pretty good throws and her U-Air is amazing. I've been playing her lately (I like her quite a bit), and I don't remember who said this, but Palutena's basically a better . She's a character that's built for defensive play, a style of play that isn't seen very often in competitive play. Palutena's frame data really keeps her from being high tier. She's probably low tier at best.

Palutena will probably muddle somewhere in low tier once people play around her grab and overall mostly one-dimensional gameplan. She doesn't have much longevity in this meta if you ask me.

Dyr is probably memeing with his list though. He thinks Shulk/Diddy is even after fighting Dragonbrain many times, so idk. *shrugs*

 

[Daymaster]

People seem to be throwing around the term "Disadvantage State" pretty liberally. The term generalizes all positions and states into one part of the game. This makes things unclear because of the huge number of disadvantageous states that a character can be in as well as the huge, fast changes to how disadvantaged a character is based on slight positional changes. Take Link for example. He is slightly disadvantaged once the opponent is withing about the range of an uncharged arrow. However, the amount that he is disadvantaged greatly increases once the opponent gets into range of his sword because of the importance of using projectiles. The two states are completely different in terms of what Link can do in them and should not be put into the same category. Instead of this, I would say using ratios like the ones used in Smash Theory: Edgeguarding would be more applicable.

 

[ARGHETH]

View attachment 121084

I'm pretty Sure Dyr was High on something when he made this

Get down from there Robin, you'll hurt yourself
Dyr's more optimistic about Corrin than basically every notable Corrin main...

 

[TDK]

Spoiler

(2GG!) Komo's Cloud Matchup list. Spoilered because Big. Curious as to what makes DK even and the rest of the Superheavies less than that.

Also the top 10 that Das Koopa posted wasn't the 10 with the most results, I think it was that those 10 characters made up like a third of all results.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Spoiler

View attachment 121098

(2GG!) Komo's Cloud Matchup list. Spoilered because Big. Curious as to what makes DK even and the rest of the Superheavies less than that.

Also the top 10 that Das Koopa posted wasn't the 10 with the most results, I think it was that those 10 characters made up like a third of all results.

What makes me curious is why he put at around even when she is considered my many now to be one of, if not the worst of his MU's both in theory and in actual results

Seriously is looking like its around 6-4 in Bayo's favor and basically the choice to counter-pick Cloud

Heck, even Dabuz pulled her out when facing a Cloud during Aftershock as shown

 

[Y2Kay]

Anyone with Zinnia as their prof pic has questionable taste and is not worth listening to.

This triggers me more than Dyr's Trash Tier List.

 

[The-Technique]

ignore this

 

[The-Technique]

isn't high tier. Her moveset is too mixed in how good or bad they are (not to mention, her pretty bad disadvantage state and lackluster frame data), keep her from being high tier. She does have some pretty good throws and her U-Air is amazing. I've been playing her lately (I like her quite a bit), and I don't remember who said this, but Palutena's basically a better . She's a character that's built for defensive play, a style of play that isn't seen very often in competitive play. Palutena's frame data really keeps her from being high tier. She's probably low tier at best.

Yeah this was discussed earlier and it was concluded that she plays absolutely nothing like Zelda. Zelda has explosive reward and very early KO setups severely held back by her nonexistent horizontal hitbox coverage and mobility where no one has deal with any of Zelda's setups if their character's neutral beats hers. Palutena's gameplay is very low risk low reward where she generally pokes the opponent to death with jab and f-air/b-air and grabs.

Low tier at best? No, she's a very safe character that has the tools to deal with most characters. Not necessarily winning matchups mind you, but she doesn't get destroyed by anyone. Top 15 runspeed/walk speed means she can play keep away and pressure opponents in equal measure. Results-wise Palutena main(s) tend to fall around top 16-32 placings in majors which is decent considering the competition. I'd rank her around low mid tier at her peak if players like TLTC and Prince Ramen continue putting in the work.

 

[Daymaster]

Yeah this was discussed earlier and it was concluded that she plays absolutely nothing like Zelda. Zelda has explosive reward and very early KO setups severely held back by her nonexistent horizontal hitbox coverage and mobility where no one has deal with any of Zelda's setups if their character's neutral beats hers. Palutena's gameplay is very low risk low reward where she generally pokes the opponent to death with jab and f-air/b-air and grabs.

Low tier at best? No, she's a very safe character that has the tools to deal with most characters. Not necessarily winning matchups mind you, but she doesn't get destroyed by anyone. Top 15 runspeed/walk speed means she can play keep away and pressure opponents in equal measure. Results-wise Palutena main(s) tend to fall around top 16-32 placings in majors which is decent considering the competition. I'd rank her around low mid tier at her peak if players like TLTC and Prince Ramen continue putting in the work.

*insert me getting triggered over a double post here* /kappa

So if Palutena is a mid tier at best but is really only that good because of her safety, do we have another Little Mac? I mean, if her safetey is increased much more she would become EXTREMELY difficult to punish for anything. If we gave her other good attributes, then we are taking away from her emphasis on safety and thus changing her entire playstyle, which would require a significant rework rather than a buff.

 

[L9999]

I would love that the top players that post those lists explained their controversial rankings instead of a vague statements that do not give their lists any credibility. Why do we bring to the discussion tier lists that have no explanation I don't know. But then people go insane because some dude posted a tier list with 0 explanation and commenting that he was high or his opinion doesn't matter because his profile pic is a Pokemon character (WTF?!). Dyr's opinion may not have solid evidence (or explanation) but there is no need to bash it like if it was the bane of human life.

 

[The-Technique]

isn't high tier. Her moveset is too mixed in how good or bad they are (not to mention, her pretty bad disadvantage state and lackluster frame data), keep her from being high tier. She does have some pretty good throws and her U-Air is amazing. I've been playing her lately (I like her quite a bit), and I don't remember who said this, but Palutena's basically a better . She's a character that's built for defensive play, a style of play that isn't seen very often in competitive play. Palutena's frame data really keeps her from being high tier. She's probably low tier at best.

*insert me getting triggered over a double post here* /kappa

So if Palutena is a mid tier at best but is really only that good because of her safety, do we have another Little Mac? I mean, if her safetey is increased much more she would become EXTREMELY difficult to punish for anything. If we gave her other good attributes, then we are taking away from her emphasis on safety and thus changing her entire playstyle, which would require a significant rework rather than a buff.

Yeah I dunno how the double post happened, I was trying to edit my post.

For Palutena to rise anywhere above mid-tier? Just give her a better Down B (lul frame 10 active Counter)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I tried playing palutena, couldn't do it because i'm used to having very speedy tilts while she....doesn't. Once you insert a tilt with palutena if you whiff or if an opponent manages to dodge roll behind you you're screwed as palutena takes a LONG time to wrap up her tilts. More then enough time to get seriously punished on whiff. Compare that to zard who has really fast tilts that while they can't be spammed can easily be whipped out quickly enough to counterpoke.

 

[The-Technique]

I tried playing palutena, couldn't do it because i'm used to having very speedy tilts while she....doesn't. Once you insert a tilt with palutena if you whiff or if an opponent manages to dodge roll behind you you're screwed as palutena takes a LONG time to wrap up her tilts. More then enough time to get seriously punished on whiff. Compare that to zard who has really fast tilts that while they can't be spammed can easily be whipped out quickly enough to counterpoke.

Palutena's tilts are more situational than others. U-tilt is anti-air and covers ledge getups, and d-tilt is good for spacing against grounded opponents in neutral. F-tilt is pretty bad overall unless you read a side step. Your go-to move on the ground is jab 1 > grab, mixed with f-air/b-air pokes. That's generally how her neutral is played.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yeah nearly every character that I use (a grand total of three don't ask) I can use their tilts no problem not worry about the situation at hand, palutena relies more on grabs and aerials which I'm actually only semi-good with though once I establish the jab things go more my way i'm just so used to using tilts (curse you muscle memory!)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Most top player tier lists are just strange mixes of what everyone thinks and who they lose to the most. Actually its not just top players, its literally every tier list I've seen made without dozens of people helping.

Its simple. If a tier list is based on matchup spreads, and Its safe to assume that no single person knows all 3364 matchups in depth, then there's no way we can trust any tier list made without multiple people.

 

[FullMoon]

Yesterday Brazil had I believe it's first 100+ participants Smash 4 major so I'll post it here for @Das Koopa

Spoiler: UFSmash 2 (around 160 participants)

1st TSL|Maroli

2nd SmashRS|Lukitu

3rd Lukingordex

4th URT|Seyaru

5th Ampheras

5th KEK|Emp

7th DASH|Player 7

7th Dan

9th TSL|Addan

9th LAS|W

9th SOL|Dann

9th AD|Revoredo

13th TSL|Jab Air

13th TSL|Porpino

13th St0rmbringer

13th DASH|O Hobbit

 

[HoSmash4]

Corrin is silly as hell. His 'trash movement specs' is less relevant because he shares the same dash to shield as sheik. As well as having very very silly mid range options.

He might not be top 5, but Side b, counter, those aerials... Very good moves

 

[Deleted member]

Thank God somebody remembered Male Corrin exists.

Character is silly but most people don't play the matchup properly. I still feel like Marth is a stronger character than him personally.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Komo's Cloud matchup spread chart looks solid, though a bit optimistic. Sheik and Bayonetta both beat Cloud 6/4 but japanese people generally seem to have conservative estimates when it comes to matchup numbers.

It's actually kinda sad you say this. It just proves the fact that most people are sheep, and that deviating too much from the general opinion can make you seen as being a troll? From what I understand from your post at least. If you were to see who I thought are top characters in the game you would probably think I'm absolutely insane.

In my opinion as long as your opinions are well justified it should be looked at seriously.

I'll retract my statement if you [not *you* specifically, but anybody who has an issue with my point] can come up with reasonable justifications for:

- Pikachu an entire tier above ZSS.
- Corrin higher than Sheik
- Palutena in the same tier as Marth
- Peach higher than Megaman, Villager and Toon Link
- ZSS' position in general
- Corrin's position in general
- Sheik's position in general
- Palutena's position in general
- Pikachu's position in general
- Peach's position in general
- Marth's position compared to Lucina's total absence

 

[Nah]

I'll retract my statement if you [not *you* specifically, but anybody who has an issue with my point] can come up with reasonable justifications for:

- Pikachu an entire tier above ZSS.
- Corrin higher than Sheik
- Palutena in the same tier as Marth
- Peach higher than Megaman, Villager and Toon Link
- ZSS' position in general
- Corrin's position in general
- Sheik's position in general
- Palutena's position in general
- Pikachu's position in general
- Peach's position in general
- Marth's position compared to Lucina's total absence

you forgot to add Robin's position in general

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm very ignorant when it comes to Robin, her matchups and her potential so I opted to leave her out. Just because I don't feel confident taking a clear position on her. Consider it an act of generosity

 

[Piipp]

View attachment 121084

I'm pretty Sure Dyr was High on something when he made this

Pretty late on this but did see it on twitter.

The fact that he thinks that Bayo is Brawl MK makes me not even want to look at the rest of it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I find Cloud beating Zero Suit Samus, even slightly, highly questionable. Even ignoring results which historically have favored ZSS, the theory for Cloud having an advantage is not there. ZSS has the mobility and the frame data to contest Cloud and "get in" but she also has zair for mid range whiff punishing, something I see Marss doing a lot, which is probably effective due to either Cloud's tall frame or the amount of time he spends in the air, or both. Cloud seems pretty susceptible to ladders based on what I've watched; and considering his fall speed and relatively tall frame this doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, ZSS takes punishes much less severely, making it back to the ledge fairly easily and escaping uair juggles with her solid down b.

Perhaps this is just a playstyle thing, where the wild-card factor employed by top ZSS players counters the extremely safe, low risk play of (most) top Cloud players, but either way I don't see it as being an advantage for Cloud.

 

[Megamang]

I guess in theory Cloud punishes missed dashgrab harder than anyone, either landing uair for a huge combo if not in FT kill %, or FT... but i agree, zair is too good a nuetral dominance tool, especially vs tall, sh happy characters.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I don't

Pretty late on this but did see it on twitter.

The fact that he thinks that Bayo is Brawl MK makes me not even want to look at the rest of it.

lolz I don't think even pre 1.1.6 Bayo was considered quite as broken as Brawl MK

At least you could say she has actual "weakness" and could actullay be hit offstage

 

[blackghost]

we are seeing the slow development of bayo counter play. long term the best way to beat her is developing unique air dodge punishes. because hers is so horrific traditional punishes aren't optimal on her. everytime you read an air dodge from her you should be getting a major punish on her.
lol at dyr tier list.

 

[The-Technique]

I find Cloud beating Zero Suit Samus, even slightly, highly questionable. Even ignoring results which historically have favored ZSS, the theory for Cloud having an advantage is not there. ZSS has the mobility and the frame data to contest Cloud and "get in" but she also has zair for mid range whiff punishing, something I see Marss doing a lot, which is probably effective due to either Cloud's tall frame or the amount of time he spends in the air, or both. Cloud seems pretty susceptible to ladders based on what I've watched; and considering his fall speed and relatively tall frame this doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, ZSS takes punishes much less severely, making it back to the ledge fairly easily and escaping uair juggles with her solid down b.

Perhaps this is just a playstyle thing, where the wild-card factor employed by top ZSS players counters the extremely safe, low risk play of (most) top Cloud players, but either way I don't see it as being an advantage for Cloud.

I think people just sleep on ZSS in general just because she isn't the absolute 2nd best character anymore.

Another thing to note is that ZSS's god-like offstage game is an absolute nightmare for Cloud trying to recover, having pretty much all the tools to stifle his recovery options.

 

[irokex13]

I find Cloud beating Zero Suit Samus, even slightly, highly questionable. Even ignoring results which historically have favored ZSS, the theory for Cloud having an advantage is not there. ZSS has the mobility and the frame data to contest Cloud and "get in" but she also has zair for mid range whiff punishing, something I see Marss doing a lot, which is probably effective due to either Cloud's tall frame or the amount of time he spends in the air, or both. Cloud seems pretty susceptible to ladders based on what I've watched; and considering his fall speed and relatively tall frame this doesn't surprise me. On the other hand, ZSS takes punishes much less severely, making it back to the ledge fairly easily and escaping uair juggles with her solid down b.

Perhaps this is just a playstyle thing, where the wild-card factor employed by top ZSS players counters the extremely safe, low risk play of (most) top Cloud players, but either way I don't see it as being an advantage for Cloud.

I don't know about that. In theory, Cloud has some pretty strong tools to deal with ZSS. One major thing you forgot to account for is that ZSS almost always has to use falling aerials as her rising aerials will whiff, and she can't hit Cloud with a rising Zair either. Since she HAS to fall a bit to hit Cloud with these moves, this makes her very vulnerable to his D tilt (honestly, this move is godlike against SH aerials and more Cloud's need to focus on countering aerial approaches with this). She also has kinda bad OoS options. Frame 4 Boost Kick is scary and respectable, but Cloud's up air, bair, and fair are still able to effectively pressure her shield due to the pushback and range of these moves.

Cloud is also one of the few characters that can fall out her up B pretty often. And not like the "get pushed off the top and die earlier" fall out either. KuroganeHammer made a ZSS commentator card recently which staates that the 7th hit of her Boost Kick can weakly meteor Cloud. If she whiffs a Boost Kick and is too high up, ZSS can die to a revenge Up air/Finishing Touch.

If it counts for anything, I personally think that the MU is even. I've played it several times with a good ZSS in my state, and we usually go back and forth in sets. Whoever gets momentum first usually takes it.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's also a ton of things you can do to Bayo because her ground dodges are so trash and no moves to make up for it. First properly invincible frame is 5, compared to most characters's 3.

Partly because of her physics Jab > grab should be an option for plenty of characters. Meanwhile moves that'd force a spotdodge or roll on shield she can only hope you don't grab.

 

[verbatim]

(2GG!) Komo's Cloud Matchup list. Spoilered because Big. Curious as to what makes DK even and the rest of the Superheavies less than that.

Cloud having Limit greatly increases the range Ding Dong works at. I don't think that it helps him quite that much but like Charizard and his Flamethrower, it makes the matchup not hopeless.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

:

40/60:
45/55:
50/50:
55/45:
favorable, not sure to what extent:


This is what I think Cloud's relevant matchups are currently looking like :3

 

[Piipp]

:

40/60:
45/55:
50/50:
55/45:
favorable, not sure to what extent:


This is what I think Cloud's relevant matchups are currently looking like :3

Care to explain why Cloud MegaMan is in Mega's favor?

 

[Deleted member]

A lot of Toon Links consider Cloud to be one of their worst MUs, so probably around the 60:40 area. Ditto for Lucario.

 

[JayE]

How about Cloud vs Ryu? How does that matchup go? Sounds like both of them can just destroy each other.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Care to explain why Cloud MegaMan is in Mega's favor?

Anecdotal evidence via Kameme beating Komorikiri. Nothing major.

 

[soniczx123]

Anecdotal evidence via Kameme beating Komorikiri. Nothing major.

That's the worst way of explaining a MU....