Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I'm pretty sure the Pac-Man/Greninja MU is in Greninja's favor. From what I remember Venia has a pretty good win count on Sinji and I'm not sure how much Pac-Man experience iStudying has, Pac-Man can be really disorienting to go against if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[TDK]

After seeing Falln vs NAKAT, I'm curious as to how Pikachu was considered to have a good MU vs Rosa. can anyone explain?

 

[sedrf]

Nakat is a buster

 

[JustSomeScrub]

After seeing Falln vs NAKAT, I'm curious as to how Pikachu was considered to have a good MU vs Rosa. can anyone explain?

It probably has to do with Pikachu's supposed great edge guarding game combined with Rosa's very exploitable recovery.

Except in this case Falln was mixing up his recovery so well, it didn't matter. Nakat didn't get a single edge guard off and thus really struggled at killing as Pikachu often does.

 

[Murlough]

NAKAT made a lot of bad moves. Screwing up Quick Attack sooo many times wasn't helping, either.

 

[LRodC]

So here's a low tier character that nobody really talks about:

Falco.

What happened with him? He has absolutely zero representation whatsoever and is completely ignored. Some so called bottom tier characters that are worse have higher representation than him, and he's completely overlooked in just about every region. Why is his representation so horrible, even compared to some characters definitively worse than him? It's not like Falco is incredibly hard to use, even if he's not great. He has fewer reps than anyone on the roster except for maybe Charizard.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Falco sucks

 

[420quickscoper]

PPT Summer (188 entrants)
Top 8

1st: Abadango (Undefeated)
2nd: Ixis (Sent to losers by Abadango, eliminated by Abadango)
3rd: quik (Sent to losers by Hoe4U, eliminated by Ixis)
4th: Elexiao (Sent to losers by Sodrek, eliminated by quik
5th: Sodrek (Sent to losers by Ixis, eliminated by quik)
5th: iStudying (Sent to losers by Abadango, eliminated by Elexiao)
7th: LoNg0uw (Sent to losers by Abadango, eliminated by quik)
7th: Patrino (Double eliminated by Elexiao, 2-0d and 3-0d)

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why is his representation so horrible, even compared to some characters definitively worse than him?

Same reason as for why not many people play Doctor Mario competitively: Because there is a similar character (in Falco's case, Fox) who is top tier.

 

[paperchao]

So here's a low tier character that nobody really talks about:

Falco.

What happened with him? He has absolutely zero representation whatsoever and is completely ignored. Some so called bottom tier characters that are worse have higher representation than him, and he's completely overlooked in just about every region. Why is his representation so horrible, even compared to some characters definitively worse than him? It's not like Falco is incredibly hard to use, even if he's not great. He has fewer reps than anyone on the roster except for maybe Charizard.

Falco generally only has his amazing frame data to hold foes off, he doesn't have any crazy option that most good characters have, and most of his staple tools were completely gutted, leaving him a shell of his former self. He also needs to be pretty consistent with all his tools to have a chance.
His poor representation is due to nerfs, plus a completely warped playstyle from past games. I can see him doing work with a good player who can master his movement options, as well as maximising his advantage every way possible. But his flaws usually scare any potential players away.

 

[FullMoon]

I think this might just be the only time we'll get to see 2 Greninja in top 8 of a big tournament like this.

Well unless iStudy and Elexiao attend more tournaments together.

 

[Das Koopa]

Be Smash 2016 Top 48 Winners Side (Dominican Republic)


Triple A v Digital Strider
RR KeeKay v SS Rikar
Sharpy v SS Striker
SG 0mart v SS| Cabellito
Gran Papin v KXR Don Neko
OoC Naranja v Javon
R.R. Stark v Xelim
Capitancito v Flete


some guys from Losers side I identified from skimming the vod
DantelinkX
Sin Xero
Maco Generico #33
FDC Monra
KXR Coki
El Yey
SSS DACS
Lohaza
KXR Bosco
SSJD/Izi
Gam Dr. Ray
SST Lasu
SST Sonikku
SSJD Turok
Mr. Cacao
RR Shin
SMITH
SS Jager

 

[arbustopachon]

Man poor Sharpy, Zard vs Mega Man is such a terrible match up.

 

[sedrf]

Well pink fresh stopped tyrant again.
I think the majority of the community saw esam's tweets/videos abbout sdi post pach and just concluded bayo is bad.
They also forgot you need to sdi to make bayo look bad

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Well pink fresh stopped tyrant again.
I think the majority of the community saw esam's tweets/videos abbout sdi post pach and just concluded bayo is bad.
They also forgot you need to sdi to make bayo look bad

It seems SDI is only effective vs Bayonetta during her combo starters, not during the middle of combos. In other words unless you made a mistake and were anticipating the move and buffering SDI already, it's likely not going to make a difference.

I have yet to see anyone get out in the middle.

I mean it's like saying Diddy is bad because you can technically catch his banana as he throws it at you. Just press A.

 

[Das Koopa]

top 8 at KTAR Saga

Larry Lurr vs. Marss
Pink Fresh vs. Mr. R

VoiD vs. Zan (!!!)
Falln vs. Tyrant

Tons of bustering at this tourney lol

It's gonna be category 2 btw. Ally, ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz are all not present, Zinoto had to cancel, etc. It was looking like a major to start with but naaaaah.

 

[TDK]

The fact that all those people dropped and Zan is the only non-big name in the top 8 is still impressive.

Also, looks like Zan is stepping up for now that Hyuga's out of commission.

 

[Djent]

SHI Gaming is now streaming Umebura 24.

Das Koopa before you ask, 224 entrants.

 

[Ninety]

The Roy meta advancing before our very eyes.

 

[TDK]

RIP Zan

Nowhere near Hyuga's level. Shame.

 

[420quickscoper]

Falco generally only has his amazing frame data to hold foes off, he doesn't have any crazy option that most good characters have, and most of his staple tools were completely gutted, leaving him a shell of his former self. He also needs to be pretty consistent with all his tools to have a chance.
His poor representation is due to nerfs, plus a completely warped playstyle from past games. I can see him doing work with a good player who can master his movement options, as well as maximising his advantage every way possible. But his flaws usually scare any potential players away.

I disagree with Falco having amazing frame data.
Yes, he has overall very fast attacks, but there are some problems.
For example, his aerials overall have a lot of landing lag, and he only has 2 SHACs.
He also has some notable ending lag on some other moves.

 

[C0rvus]

This was still a very strong placing for Zan, he even surprised himself haha. I get that Toon Link is a sensitive topic or whatever, but please don't just compare Zan to Hyuga baselessly. They are fundamentally different players; Hyuga always kept things simple and was very good at adapting, whereas Zan is a very technical player, with plenty of bomb tricks and tech up his sleeves. He doesn't go to as many majors as Hyuga did, so don't expect the same level of results. He's hella good though, I hope he gets out to stuff and takes the game more seriously.

 

[Das Koopa]

what the **** is Tyrant doing

 

[420quickscoper]

Pink Fresh beats Mr. R 3-1!

 

[Das Koopa]

Winner's Finals is Pink Fresh vs. Marss lol

 

[[BROF]]

Can't help but cheer for Pink Fresh anytime he's playing now. He's really creative with his combos, very situational and DI-mixups involved in creating them.
Players sticking to their guns once an overpowered character gets brought down a peg are true bros.
Maybe I can cheer for Machaboo in GG now as well...

 

[Jaguar360]

MKLeo attended Orbit in Quebec today. Not too many notable players and only 51 entrants though. Here are the results: https://smash.gg/tournament/orbit-b...sh-bros-wii-u-200/brackets/13132/54508/178916

1. MKLeo
2. HoH | Venom
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Sensuel
5. Stoumbert
7. Fwed
7. Guiltymuffin

Leo was 3-2 over Venom in WFs using mainly Toon Link, Venom reset 3-1 after Leo opted for a mix of Marth, TL and Cloud. Leo proceeded to 3-0 Venom with Meta Knight after the bracket reset.

Tofer made 9th btw.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Also watched Some vs Shu at Umebura 24 today. This was Some's first tournament since the Sheik nerfs and he's seemingly doing a lot better in the matchup since he last played. First stock was extremely close. He got timed out in the end though once he got the stock lead. This match along with iStudying and Elexiao's matches with Light in the Germany vs World crew battle at PPT today are showing that the matchup is certainly pretty doable, but it gets really hard if Greninja is behind a stock.

 

[TDK]

Pink Fresh trying to show that he's better than Saj. Damn, he's impressive.

Still think Saj is better but they tie placings at every major since the nerfs except CEO.


That was one of the best sets I've ever seen.

 

[Ffamran]

I disagree with Falco having amazing frame data.
Yes, he has overall very fast attacks, but there are some problems.
For example, his aerials overall have a lot of landing lag, and he only has 2 SHACs.
He also has some notable ending lag on some other moves.

Uh, no he does not. It's pretty average, but average landing lag is high in Smash 4. His landing lag average, which doesn't really matter, is actually lower than Fox's. Falco's Nair, Uair, and Bair (15), Dair (23), and Fair (25) total up to 93 and divided by 5 is 18.6 while Fox's Nair (11), Bair (15), Uair (22), Dair (25), and Fair (27) total up to 100 for a 20 landing lag average. Before 1.0.8, Falco's Fair had 32 landing frames which would make his total 100, so 20 average.

Fox also only has 2 aerials, Uair and Bair, the same as Falco's, that are auto-cancelable from hops, so your point being? One of the best characters, Sheik, has 3, Nair, Fair, and Bair. Cloud only has 3 without meter, Nair, Uair, and Bair; with meter, he can only auto-cancel Nair and Uair from a hop. Since Cloud's jump is pretty low, it doesn't really matter since like most characters, he can auto-cancel all of his aerials from a jump.

His other moves also have average recovery. What are these "some other moves"? Outside of Blaster which is a pile of horse crap, Falco Phantasm which still has lower recovery than Fox's when used on the ground, but the same when used in the air, and Reflector which has high active frames, is a reflect so they probably don't want to spam it, and is transcendent, I can't really think of any moves he has that are over average in recovery.

Not to you, but where the hell do people get this idea that Falco's recovery or end lag as some people call it, is so terrible that Ike's Smashes seem like they have low recovery? Where is this disinformation coming from? It's freaking disinformation when it seems like this false information is deliberately spread for some reason.

 

[Murlough]

Pink Fresh vs Marss was probably the hypest match I've ever seen.

Anyone who says either of those two characters has fallen from glory NEEDS to watch that.

 

[Y2Kay]

MKLeo attended Orbit in Quebec today. Not too many notable players and only 51 entrants though. Here are the results: https://smash.gg/tournament/orbit-b...sh-bros-wii-u-200/brackets/13132/54508/178916

1. MKLeo
2. HoH | Venom
3. Holy
4. Darkwolf
5. Sensuel
5. Stoumbert
7. Fwed
7. Guiltymuffin

Leo was 3-2 over Venom in WFs using mainly Toon Link, Venom reset 3-1 after Leo opted for a mix of Marth, TL and Cloud. Leo proceeded to 3-0 Venom with Meta Knight after the bracket reset.

Tofer made 9th btw.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Also watched Some vs Shu at Umebura 24 today. This was Some's first tournament since the Sheik nerfs and he's seemingly doing a lot better in the matchup since he last played. First stock was extremely close. He got timed out in the end though once he got the stock lead. This match along with iStudying and Elexiao's matches with Light in the Germany vs World crew battle at PPT today are showing that the matchup is certainly pretty doable, but it gets really hard if Greninja is behind a stock.

Hol' up SOME IS AT A TOURNEY?

Today is a good greninja day.

 

[Pyr]

Why is Larry going DK?

 

[TDK]

Because Sheik-DK is apparently close to even. I'd say it's 55-45 Sheik because you always have to be careful about the ding-dong and you're generally killing DK at 160+.

 

[Yoshister]

From what I've heard...

2manycooks (Doc main) made 33rd at 2GGT: Ktar Saga, which is a National.
Quite impressive.

EDIT: It's regional.

 

[Murlough]

Why is Larry going DK?

DK is like his panic button. Which is funny because, once again, it fails to work.

 

[TDK]

Is Zair to Boost Kick true or something?

 

[MistressRemilia]

From what I've heard...

2manycooks (Doc main) made 33rd at 2GGT: Ktar Saga, which is a National.
Quite impressive.

EDIT: It's regional.

Unfortunate run & poor choices kind of dictated his run:
He fought Impose, a Bowser main, who he lost to 2-0. It was fairly close with Doc, but for whatever reason, 2MC decides to go for DK Game 2, which kind of fails miserably. In losers finals, he gets the runback 2-0 against Impose, beating Rideae in the process in loser's semis. Unfortunately, he falls straight against VoiD in R1 of Losers Top 48, which he loses 2-1, which is still fairly decent, but leaves him just outside of Top 32. I'm kind of sad about this result, it's not bad but it could have been a lot better

 

[C0rvus]

Btw anyone who doesn't think Bayonetta is good needs to wake up. Pink Fresh getting to grands at a SoCal event is pretty legit, so you can't even tell me she can't make it in bracket.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Did...solo Bayonetta just win a major before Cloud or Ryu did?

 

[ARGHETH]

Did...solo Bayonetta just win a major before Cloud or Ryu did?

Wasn't a major though. Zero, Nairo, Dabuz, Zinoto, Abadango, and Anti were absent.