Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

I'm sorry but simply everything in that post is wrong...
Look, I don't mind if you think Pit is better but don't think that is the ultimate truth, cause it isn't. I don't know what you have seen or what you have been told but i know it's incorrect.

A bunch of it I've had a hand in writing, so yeah... I just don't get how a hard read option compares to something that has a significant advantages in all three game states. Like really, how often do you see good players die to Electroshock? If you're not constantly sealing stocks with it, why are you using him over Pit?

 

[krazySyko]

With the Pits, I feel like for a good portion of MUs they're about equal and it can come down to preference. Arrows are good, sometimes great, but in some matches and MUs they don't always accomplish TOO much. I've seen with Pit, even in Earth matches, where arrows don't get too much done and where a hard punish opportunity arose and Electroshock would have killed, and in those cases DP would have been better. By the same token there will always be DP matches where you don't get an Electroshock kill and you'll wish you were Pit.

There's definitely a few MUs (Ness, Fox, Diddy, etc. to name a few) where Pit and his arrows shine more, and at least a few where DP is better either by having Electroshock or just where arrows aren't very useful so having access to a potential read/landing trap/punish option that kills (when killing is a big problem for both Pits) will work better. Pit would probably be very slightly above DP for tiering, but I can't see them not being next to each other or where having a preference for one or the other would really hurt you. Pits definitely should be able to both though and switch depending on the MU, potentially stage, and even possibly an opponent's playstyle.

Dark Pit (and really the Pits in general) is also just not very popular of a character at all.

 

[Dusk Pit]

A bunch of it I've had a hand in writing, so yeah... I just don't get how a hard read option compares to something that has a significant advantages in all three game states. Like really, how often do you see good players die to Electroshock? If you're not constantly sealing stocks with it, why are you using him over Pit?

You catch landings with it and nair combos into side b. Definitely more often than we see good players dying to arrows.

Tell me, how does a low % projectile with no combo ability and little knockback change your game so much that you think it makes Pit automatically better? Yes you can catch jumps with it off stage but it's something that doesn't happen often to good players because of how reactable the arrows are. Pit's arrows are only a bit nuisance off stage, that's pretty much it. There are a lot of MUs where arrows are pretty much useless, doesn't that make D Pit automatically better by your logic?

 

[Pyr]

Pit's arrows are a nuisance off stage and Dark Pit's arrows are... Nothing off stage. Pit has an additional option that Dark Pit doesn't. And how often are you using either Pit's arrow in the neutral? It's not keeping anyone out forever and it's trivial to power shield both of their arrows.

Also, how often are you even landing the frame 16/19 Side-B against a competent person? What sort of wishful-thinking options are being used by your opponent? You aren't getting it in neutral, that's for sure. So either you 50/50d into it, you're against Ganon, or you are playing someone that was trying for something they REALLY shouldn't of been trying for. And, if you can hit it, you likely can hit F-Smash for more damage and a similar chance to kill... For Dark Pit.

In fact, I'd choose Pit over Dark just because Side-B has a 100 angle and can kill floaties easier off the top. If I need to kill off the side, F-Smash does more damage, has a better FAF, and comes out faster. It does the job just fine. I can even PP it to give me more range. Range isn't an advantage. If you needed a max range Side-B to punish for a kill, the opponent just did something with 35 frames of lag. That's just unreasonable.

So, Pit has better arrows in their versatility and his Side B isn't just a long range, laggy F-Smash. I think it's kinda obvious why Dark Pit isn't seeing play: he lacks a bit of the versatility of normal Pit. In a matchup spread that is super-similar, having more options in general > having less.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Pit's arrows are a nuisance off stage and Dark Pit's arrows are... Nothing off stage. Pit has an additional option that Dark Pit doesn't. And how often are you using either Pit's arrow in the neutral? It's not keeping anyone out forever and it's trivial to power shield both of their arrows.

Also, how often are you even landing the frame 16/19 Side-B against a competent person? What sort of wishful-thinking options are being used by your opponent? You aren't getting it in neutral, that's for sure. So either you 50/50d into it, you're against Ganon, or you are playing someone that was trying for something they REALLY shouldn't of been trying for. And, if you can hit it, you likely can hit F-Smash for more damage and a similar chance to kill... For Dark Pit.

In fact, I'd choose Pit over Dark just because Side-B has a 100 angle and can kill floaties easier off the top. If I need to kill off the side, F-Smash does more damage, has a better FAF, and comes out faster. It does the job just fine. I can even PP it to give me more range. Range isn't an advantage. If you needed a max range Side-B to punish for a kill, the opponent just did something with 35 frames of lag. That's just unreasonable.

So, Pit has better arrows in their versatility and his Side B isn't just a long range, laggy F-Smash. I think it's kinda obvious why Dark Pit isn't seeing play: he lacks a bit of the versatility of normal Pit. In a matchup spread that is super-similar, having more options in general > having less.

You simply don't understand how/where to use side b. It doesn't matter whether you kill your opponent off the top or sides, it's important WHEN it kills and electroshock kills usually way earlier than upperdash.

Let's think a one situation how to use side b correctly. You are a luigi vs. Dark Pit. You are trying to land but double jump is already used. What do you do as luigi to avoid side b?

 

[LancerStaff]

You catch landings with it and nair combos into side b. Definitely more often than we see good players dying to arrows.

Tell me, how does a low % projectile with no combo ability and little knockback change your game so much that you think it makes Pit automatically better? Yes you can catch jumps with it off stage but it's something that doesn't happen often to good players because of how reactable the arrows are. Pit's arrows are only a bit nuisance off stage, that's pretty much it. There are a lot of MUs where arrows are pretty much useless, doesn't that make D Pit automatically better by your logic?

I still have my doubts about the combo, and even if it is completely true Nair isn't exactly hard to challenge or punish.

Pit's arrows are a lot more then just a simple projectile... Though I think you're underrating it a bit considering they they can be thrown out as fast as Luigi's fireballs, can be redirected how you wish and can even be used while retreating. Dark Pit's arrows frequently get jumped over and punished. Arrows play heavily into juggling and offstage, either adding extra damage onto the stubborn or the out of reach, or creating situations to deal more damage like forcing characters to take otherwise suboptional recovery paths, or just gimp entirely. Earth I see get arrow gimps about as often as people get kills with Electroshock.

And besides that, gimping with arrows has absolutely no risk. Electroshock is ridiculously risky.

Also, how often are you even landing the frame 16/19 Side-B against a competent person? What sort of wishful-thinking options are being used by your opponent? You aren't getting it in neutral, that's for sure. So either you 50/50d into it, you're against Ganon, or you are playing someone that was trying for something they REALLY shouldn't of been trying for. And, if you can hit it, you likely can hit F-Smash for more damage and a similar chance to kill... For Dark Pit.

In fact, I'd choose Pit over Dark just because Side-B has a 100 angle and can kill floaties easier off the top. If I need to kill off the side, F-Smash does more damage, has a better FAF, and comes out faster. It does the job just fine. I can even PP it to give me more range. Range isn't an advantage. If you needed a max range Side-B to punish for a kill, the opponent just did something with 35 frames of lag. That's just unreasonable.

So, Pit has better arrows in their versatility and his Side B isn't just a long range, laggy F-Smash. I think it's kinda obvious why Dark Pit isn't seeing play: he lacks a bit of the versatility of normal Pit. In a matchup spread that is super-similar, having more options in general > having less.

Well, mostly it's the super armor and range. SA means you can plow through things you otherwise can't, and the range is literally half of FD with a B-reverse. Basically you want to read something that's otherwise totally safe, like a jab or spaced Fair instead of waiting for a punish. No, it's not safe. Not the point... Kills 10% sooner then Fsmash which is pretty significant with rage.

Pretty sure that 99% of the time Electroshock's going to kill sooner. You need to hit somebody like as you're coming back on stage for Upperdash to kill sooner.

 

[Fenny]

Speaking of Bayonetta how exactly are you supposed to DI/SDI out of her combos now after the changes? People say she no longer gets free extended combos but I've definitely seen even at high level, Bayonettas still pulling off 50+ percent strings sometimes leading to death off the top or the side of the stage.

Which makes me believe her biggest nerfs were in neutral, big combos are still possible with her. Unless no one knows how to DI to avoid them.

You literally just SDI sideways and down out of her Witch Twist, and SDI out and down in the direction that ABK sends you. The reason why people are still getting those combos are because:

1) It's still easier said than done to SDI out of them on reaction unless you know they're gonna do it. I mean you can begin to, but usually by the time you begin you haven't gotten out in time early enough to not get hit by her follow-ups.
2) When I think of big damage rackers like Pink Fresh and Salem, they're practically using everything I'm her aerial arsenal to eat away at someone and reading the opponent's DI.

Mix-ups and reads are really important for Bayo post-patch, and knowing how every other part of her arsenal can chain together means that the opponent is gonna have a lot harder time getting out of things.

 

[Dusk Pit]

I still have my doubts about the combo, and even if it is completely true Nair isn't exactly hard to challenge or punish.

Pit's arrows are a lot more then just a simple projectile... Though I think you're underrating it a bit considering they they can be thrown out as fast as Luigi's fireballs, can be redirected how you wish and can even be used while retreating. Dark Pit's arrows frequently get jumped over and punished. Arrows play heavily into juggling and offstage, either adding extra damage onto the stubborn or the out of reach, or creating situations to deal more damage like forcing characters to take otherwise suboptional recovery paths, or just gimp entirely. Earth I see get arrow gimps about as often as people get kills with Electroshock.

And besides that, gimping with arrows has absolutely no risk. Electroshock is ridiculously risky.



Well, mostly it's the super armor and range. SA means you can plow through things you otherwise can't, and the range is literally half of FD with a B-reverse. Basically you want to read something that's otherwise totally safe, like a jab or spaced Fair instead of waiting for a punish. No, it's not safe. Not the point... Kills 10% sooner then Fsmash which is pretty significant with rage.

Pretty sure that 99% of the time Electroshock's going to kill sooner. You need to hit somebody like as you're coming back on stage for Upperdash to kill sooner.

I might be underrating arrows a bit but most of the cast in smash 4 have good enough recoveries that they get back on stage nevertheless unless you are fighting someone like ganon or mac. Full hop arrows come out frame 22 which is really laggy for a projectile and thus very reactable. Grounded arrows on the other hand have 59 frames of end lag which makes it impossible to spam them effectively on someone who is off stage. Luigi's fireballs come out frame 17 so they are significantly faster.

Now don't get me wrong, they are a very good tool at the ledge but more than often, the reward of shooting them is very small instead of just chasing off stage.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Pugwests MU chart is far better than Riots lol. Only disagreement I can see if the Sonic, where Sonic wins 60-40. Every Marth I know plus some of the other top ones agree. Maybe it's just the ones I have played, but Marth does not have too much for spin dash, however correct me if I am wrong.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Pugwests MU chart is far better than Riots lol. Only disagreement I can see if the Sonic, where Sonic wins 60-40. Every Marth I know plus some of the other top ones agree. Maybe it's just the ones I have played, but Marth does not have too much for spin dash, however correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, yes, I am sure it is a bad matchup for Marth. Not only that, this is actually one of the few ones where Lucina arguable does better, even.

...Well, speaking of Lucina's MUs... Time to rant about something I have been noticing way too much these last few weeks.

Official guide on how to discover how a MU is for Lucina!

Step 1: Discover how well Marth does against the particular matchup;

Step 2: Use the following logic:
If the Matchup is different than even for Marth, then Lucina's MU with said character is that -1. For example, if Marth has a 55:45 matchup with someone, that is automatically 50:50 for Lucina. If it's 45:55, then it's 40:60 with Lucina.
Else, if it is even, you either keep it the same or you apply the logic above if you really wish;

Step 3: Show your MU chart to everyone and look like you know what you're talking about!


...That is obviously not how things work, please. But it's been weeks since I started seeing MU charts were Lucina is always -1 than Marth on everything.
I thought they were almost the same on most matchups save a few here and there that either one of them is better (like versus Falcon, Sonic or Sheik for Lucina)

 

[Illuminose]

I don't understand the myth that Lucina is better than Marth against Sheik. The conversion power of tippers, especially tipper aerials, is way too good to give up against Sheik. I mean I guess not having to space as well is nice but Lucina straight up isn't as scary when I have to watch for 1 move that kills me instead of like 8. If you're the same character but are better at killing me with rage, you are better against Sheik. It's really that simple.

edit: In general, if Marth really struggles in a matchup (which is very few matchups that no one actually agrees on), it's because of things that impact both him and Lucina. I do think that Lucina can be decent though, especially if you want to go one of Marcina for a character like Cloud. This is because the character's design itself is much less complex and more forgiving, which can make her more...flexible in some aspects as well as just easier. I do think that those alone can be legitimate reasons, particularly if you aren't maining her (Salem, Komorikiri, and Xaltis are players that sometimes go Lucina in actual matches) and just want to pull her out as a trump card. She's worse than Marth overall but not by that much in my opinion, so you can use her over Marth if you want stylistically or preferentially.

Also Pit's arrows are pretty much the only reason he can force options in advantage state, which is critical for extending offstage positions and juggles, especially with platforms. There is no matchup where this does not gain you tons of mileage. Dark Pit Side B is a reactable, highly punishable gimmick that is not a consistent tool whereas arrows are ALWAYS useful, even if they aren't hitting.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Even in the few MUs that Lucina does do slightly better in, it tends to be rather trivial. So trivial that you could just stay Marthand keep utilize his benefits. There are occasions where I do sometimes switch to Lucina, but it's almost always due to my opponent's play style rather than Lucina doing better against the character. For example, depending on how well I'm able to keep Roy out, I might use Lucina and go ever so slightly more aggressive. This is only if I want to keep playing "Marth" though, as in playing with same-ish moves (same in terms of animation and where the hitboxes swing), and I don't want to switch to Falcon or Sheik (or Mac depending on the character but never against Roy)

 

[LancerStaff]

I might be underrating arrows a bit but most of the cast in smash 4 have good enough recoveries that they get back on stage nevertheless unless you are fighting someone like ganon or mac. Full hop arrows come out frame 22 which is really laggy for a projectile and thus very reactable. Grounded arrows on the other hand have 59 frames of end lag which makes it impossible to spam them effectively on someone who is off stage. Luigi's fireballs come out frame 17 so they are significantly faster.

Now don't get me wrong, they are a very good tool at the ledge but more than often, the reward of shooting them is very small instead of just chasing off stage.

You can still charge them slightly without falling to the ground... If there's enough distance you can afford to fall straight to the ground while charging, even.

Forcing people to take worse recovery paths tends to mean a lot of damage with the whole f5 Dsmash that does 10/12%... And the back hit has stupidly high knockback for a move that launches people almost straight horizontally. I really wish people would go for it more.

Going for Dairs is still very inconsistent... The spike hitbox lasts one frame, and is promptly switched out for a hitbox that launches straight up. The other hitboxes still launch upwards. Admittedly that means you can combo into Uair offstage for 20% but it's not consistent unless you're using it while rising. Fair and Bair are better options but going for stage spikes is, again, inconsistent. The moves can kill pretty well offstage but people generally stick close to the stage anyway.

 

[MushroomKiller]

So it's begun, the fall of Ness down the tier list from a high tier character to more of a mid tier character. If I recall correctly he's dropped on all tier lists in previous smash games as the meta developed.

Sorry to revive an old topic, but Marcina talk doesn't interest me. Ness does, however.

Putting aside terminology, I always saw Ness as more of a Top 20 character than a Top 15 one, which to some people would be mid-tier I guess (low-high for me, but whatevs). My Ness hype died a long time ago when I saw that he had a super bad MU against Sheik (needle camped, out-neautraled, heavily edge-guarded). Rosalina I can somewhat look past because of her rarity, but losing horribly to Sheik as well? The kid has it rough and just ain't solo viable.

Besides Sheik and Rosalina, Ness struggles against Sonic (who has no problem getting in his face and bypassing his disjoints and strong punish game) and more recently, Megaman. That's two horrendous and two pretty bad MUs, and while you might be lucky enough to avoid Rosa or Megaman due to how uncommon they are, you're gonna REALLY have to outplay an equally-skilled opponent if you face off against a Sheik or Sonic (less so the latter than the former, but still).

Despite that, I refuse to acknowledge any spot that puts him lower than high-mid (say, about the 20~22 spot). Ness still has solid MUs against a good portion of the top and high tiers. To briefly name a few, slight disadvantage against , even against , slight advantage against , and a solid advantage against . All of the aforementioned MUs are winnable by any adept Ness main, and combined with his results, whether 5th at Genesis or 33rd at EVO, still push him higher than the likes of other popular mid/low-high tier brethren - say, , but lower than the rising stars that have displaced him, like . He's certainly not as bad as @my_T makes him out to be, though I'll be fair and say that I don't REALLY know his overall stance on the psychic youngster. Where DO you personally place him on your list?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Where DO you personally place him on your list?

Top 20, around #17 or so. Lower than top 10, Bayonetta, Marth, Mega Man, Villager, and Toon Link almost certainly. Potentially lower than Pikachu and/or Meta Knight as well. He's at the low end of high tier, I suppose. He's a fairly strong character with some rather unfortunate matchups against some top tier characters.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Does anyone know the exact frame data for all initial dashes in the game? I'm interested in knowing which characters can do a move out of the initial dash the fastest and how many of them are top tiers.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Does anyone know the exact frame data for all initial dashes in the game? I'm interested in knowing which characters can do a move out of the initial dash the fastest and how many of them are top tiers.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4

I don't think there's a list, so you'll have to check each character separately. Have fun.

 

[ARGHETH]

Does anyone know the exact frame data for all initial dashes in the game? I'm interested in knowing which characters can do a move out of the initial dash the fastest and how many of them are top tiers.

Here.

 

[mountain_tiger]

On a similar topic, is there a list anywhere ranking mid-air jump heights?

I've looked here, there and everywhere for one and haven't had much luck so far...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Here.

Oh, I misread him, I thought he meant dash attacks. My bad.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

Here.

Thanks, wasn't expecting Corrin and GnW to have among the best ones.

Low commitment dashes are very strong in this game imo due to how good dash - shield approaches are.

Especially since you can drop shields in merely 7 frames.

 

[Dagon97]

Thanks, wasn't expecting Corrin and GnW to have among the best ones.

Low commitment dashes are very strong in this game imo due to how good dash - shield approaches are.

Especially since you can drop shields in merely 7 frames.

if you don't have time to dash -> shield, you can just jump out of your dash and not get hit, worst case scenario you can roll back out of your dash but that can be very telegraphed because it is not a flexible option

 

[Das Koopa]

loNg0uw out at PPT

another day, another ROB getting 7th

̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\

At least Aba will win.

 

[Nobie]

I had a crazy thought today (tell me if I'm crazy or if I'm on to something):

If you're good enough to perfect shield fairly consistently, then you might be good enough to just straight up Rest people as Jigglypuff out of attacks.

I don't mean "shield into JC Rest," or "Spot dodge into Rest," I mean literally "blocking" an attack by htiting Down B and killing them.

Obviously doesn't work on disjoints, etc.

 

[Y2Kay]

Watching Abadango and iStudying fight ripped my soul in two.◥╥﹏╥◤

And now my Greninja brothers iStudying and Elexiao now have to kill each other in losers bracket. Frog on frog violence hurts. ◥ಢ┴ಢ◤

 

[sedrf]

Zan beat me 2-0oooooooo

— Void (@gsmVoiD) July 23, 2016

 

[Das Koopa]

Elexiao 3-1 iStudying with Pac-Man

 

[Aaron1997]

Das Koopa That's Funny because most Pac's agree that the match-up is in greninjas Favor -1 some people say -2

Edit: Elex might be the Greninja Savor and not Istudying also Pacman

 

[JustSomeScrub]

if you don't have time to dash -> shield, you can just jump out of your dash and not get hit, worst case scenario you can roll back out of your dash but that can be very telegraphed because it is not a flexible option

If you don't have time to dash -> shield, you won't have time to dash -> roll back either as both require a shield input.

You can definitely just jump earlier but that's a bigger commitment and you might not want to be in the air.

Zan beat me 2-0oooooooo

— Void (@gsmVoiD) July 23, 2016

Yet another big upset? Who does Zan use?

 

[Aaron1997]

Zan is a Toonlink. He's done this before, he beat Abadango Mk at Genesis J JustSomeScrub

 

[Emblem Lord]

inb4 people call Zan the second coming of Hyuga.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

I would think Sheik has no trouble getting in on Toon Link whatsoever unlike most characters, if anything I'd consider it a bad matchup. Toon Link can't keep her out thanks to her excellent mobility in the air and ground, best shield dash in the game, great fair etc.

Granted Toon Link probably kills Sheik really early with rage but still.

And didn't this happen at a 3 stock tournament? So much for 2 stocks only being a major cause for upsets...
Unless they are only playing 3 stock doubles.

 

[Illusion.]

Das Koopa That's Funny because most Pac's agree that the match-up is in greninjas Favor -1 some people say -2

Really? I've always thought it was even. Some Pac-Man today actually told me he thinks Pac-Man wins this MU +2/60:40.

 

[thehard]

There is a 12 and under official Nintendo tournament being streamed on their Twitch, and the ruleset is tournament-standard to encourage the kidz to attend locals and the like. It's pretty great so far. Gives an insight into what beginner-level meta is like.

http://twitch.tv/Nintendo

Also JC from Treehouse, VikkiKitty, and Logic are commentating. Guessing GimR is streaming due to the VG logo

 

[Aaron1997]

Illusion. From my experience Pacman loses. Its so hard to hit and control that kind of Moblity+ small hurt box

 

[ARGHETH]

And didn't this happen at a 3 stock tournament? So much for 2 stocks only being a major cause for upsets...

...2ggt is 3-stock? I thought it was a 2-stock tournament like everything else...

 

[Illusion.]

...2ggt is 3-stock? I thought it was a 2-stock tournament like everything else...

It's a 2 stock tournament.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

My mistake, 3 stocks must be for doubles only.

There is a 12 and under official Nintendo tournament being streamed on their Twitch, and the ruleset is tournament-standard to encourage the kidz to attend locals and the like. It's pretty great so far. Gives an insight into what beginner-level meta is like.

http://twitch.tv/Nintendo

Also JC from Treehouse, VikkiKitty, and Logic are commentating. Guessing GimR is streaming due to the VG logo

When Nairo was around 15 he was taking out top players in Brawl. Mr. Lz is considered one of the best PM players (he's won a national before) and he's around the same age maybe younger.

Being young doesn't necessarily mean you're a beginner. Wouldn't be surprised if a known ranked player wins it in the end.

 

[Y2Kay]

Elexiao easily has the most ZSS experience out of all the ninjas, I wouldnt be suprised if he won.

 

[thehard]

My mistake, 3 stocks must be for doubles only.



When Nairo was around 15 he was taking out top players in Brawl. Mr. Lz is considered one of the best PM players (he's won a national before) and he's around the same age maybe younger.

Being young doesn't necessarily mean you're a beginner. Wouldn't be surprised if a known ranked player wins it in the end.

I know. I was just basing it off of the current level of play on stream.

But now Ian is tearing **** up