Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jams.]

I just realized

Are there even any active posters in this thread who main sheik? I see Cloud, Diddy, ZSS, Fox mains here pretty regularly, and a bunch of other characters have good rep in CCI, but I feel like there are no regular sheiks here, which sorta sucks.

Sheik is like that cool, mysterious, talented kid in high school who people either idolize or talk **** about, despite no one really knowing much about them

Because let's be real here, how many of us have experience against top level sheiks, let alone enough experience to make claims that her neutral doesn't compensate for her killing issues @JustSomeScrub

@HoSmash4 is a PRed Sheik co-main from the UK, and he's a fairly regular poster here.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I feel the results might be skewed because of Sheik's good gimping capabilities on low-mid tiers especially.

Then factor in pools matches where Mr.R would be way better than his opponent's anyway and you've got a recipe for a ton of low percent kills.

But against other top players, you will notice it's not uncommon for top Sheiks to struggle at killing.

well....yeah, of course, lol.
the reason I chose Mr. R over VoiD isn't just because Mr. R is a bit better. It's more because I want to see her raw killing numbers without gimping.
Mr. R rarely goes for offstage edgeguards and instead generally tries to 2 frame you with needles or trump your ledgegrab. It'd be easier to see how her onstage killing options look since almost all of his kills are from onstage setups.

 

[bc1910]

I just realized

Are there even any active posters in this thread who main sheik? I see Cloud, Diddy, ZSS, Fox mains here pretty regularly, and a bunch of other characters have good rep in CCI, but I feel like there are no regular sheiks here, which sorta sucks.

Sheik is like that cool, mysterious, talented kid in high school who people either idolize or talk **** about, despite no one really knowing much about them

Because let's be real here, how many of us have experience against top level sheiks, let alone enough experience to make claims that her neutral doesn't compensate for her killing issues @JustSomeScrub

Not saying I have experience vs top level Sheik (nor does that matter from a discussion point of view, as others pointed out) but I main Sheik alongside Greninja. I know both characters well.

On a different topic, I don't see Mewtwo as a difficult character to play. He makes for a very good counterpick due to having intuitive, effective tools. He's very hard to hit with moves that can KO him early. An increase in strength generally results in an increase in ease of use and Mewtwo has experienced this.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mr. R vs AceStarThe3rd(Bayonetta):
Stock 1 - 153%
Stock 2 - 120%
Stock 3 - 91%
Stock 4 - 176%
Mr. R vs Pink Fresh(Bayonetta):
Stock 1 - 143%
Stock 2 - 163%
Stock 3 - 112%
Stock 4 - 136%
Stock 5 - 192%
Stock 6 - 177%
Stock 7 - 134%
Mr. R vs VoiD(Sheik):
Stock 1 - 165%
Stock 2 - 148%
Stock 3 - 99%
Stock 4 - 140%
Stock 5 - 144%
Stock 6 - 183%
Mr. R vs Ally(Mario):
Stock 1 - 182%
Stock 2 - 135%
Stock 3 - 142%
Stock 4 - 145%
Stock 5 - 151%
Stock 6 - 226%
Stock 7 - 139%
Mr. R vs KidGoggles(Kirby):
Stock 1 - 162%
*Goggles switches to Sonic*
Stock 2 - 179%
Stock 3 - 147%
*Goggles switches to Kirby*
Stock 4 - 151%
Stock 5 - 85%
Stock 6 - 144%
Stock 7 - 96%
Stock 8 - 136%
Average death percent: 147%
Things to note:

• Due to a liberal use of Bouncing Fish and needles but almost no ftilt/dtilt setups Mr. R kills much later than VoiD on average
• There were almost no edgeguards attempts or hard reads, therefore almost all of these kills were from setups 50/50s and traps rather than gimps
• It's....extremely difficult to hit Sheik. I've never really watched a multitude of Sheik games in a row before but now I see how hard it actually is. The character's mobility is absolutely ridiculous and giving a character this mobile the best projectile and the best recovery was ridiculous. I don't feel salty about the weight nerfs anymore, honestly, because you spend 90% of the game trying to hit Sheik while the other 10% involves you comboing or killing her. Sheik players in general don't take advantage of her free resets and godlike slipperyness enough
• After the Sheik has their initial huge burst of damage around 0-80% their untouchable streak tanks and it seems as if they become much more mortal. The Sheik gets combo'd much more and is often at risk of dying because the opponent begins gaining momentum and Mr. R in particular doesn't properly reset to neutral and get out of this awkward position
• FD >>>>>>>Smashville. Do NOT take Sheik to FD.

 

[ARGHETH]

... I'd be quite interested in seeing that, actually.

If these data points were plotted out, we'd see a lot more variance compared to someone like Diddy who kills at a very specific percent range (110-130%), what, 80% of the time? For Sheik my guess is we'd see a few kills scattered around 50-90% from gimps and low % horizontal chains. I guess probably ~30-40% of the kills would happen around 90-120% (mostly nair->bouncing fish, airdodge prediction->bouncing fish, & upair, it seems), then somewhat of a gap with fewer kills between 120-160%. Then we'd see another spike in kills at 160,170%+ from stray fairs and other small hits. I may plot this out myself, next tournament this large.

Yeah, characters who rely on very specific setups should have multimodal kill-% distributions, whereas those who are more consistent (Diddy) or flexible (Mewtwo) should be closer to normal. I too really like this idea. If you do go through it, I'd limit it to matches in bracket as pools will include stats from low-level players and skew the distributions away from "top level" play.

I found every kill% (% before the kill move, anyways) in top 64 at CEO from Mr. R, VoiD, and False, except for three sets (Mr. R/Mr. E, False/AnTi, VoiD/Fatality).

Mr. R:

• Average: 138 (132 without Anti surviving until 238)
• SD: 30.7 (18)

False:

• Average: 156 (~157 without 104/202)
• SD: 24.8 (19)

VoiD:

• Average: 119 (129 without Void gimping Tweek at low %s)
• SD: 32.1 (19)

All Three:

• Average: 138 (139)
• SD: 32.4 (22)

Spoiler: Numbers

Spoiler: Mr. R

104
106
110
117
121
123
126
127
132
136
138
140
140
154
160
160
162
238

Spoiler: False

104
124
122
137
147
150
154
158
158
158
162
162
170
180
182
185
202

Spoiler: VoiD

48
54
97
104
111
118
122
122
124
129
134
140
144
148
152
164

EDIT: Go ahead, Djent

 

[Djent]

Cool! It might make sense to bin the data in 5-point increments or something. It's not like e.g., 122 and 124 are that different. I'd go x0-x4, x5-x9 buy you can make the edges whatever you want. If you don't feel like it, I may do this myself in the morning.

 

[Yikarur]

• FD >>>>>>>Smashville. Do NOT take Sheik to FD.

Care to elaborate? It's well established that you should not take Sheik to Smashville. A lot of people cp SV against Sheik and get rekkt as a result. Final Destination is one of my favorite CPs against Sheik so I need an explanation.

 

[Luco]

EDIT: Argeth explained, I may have it mixed up, sorry. Ignore lawl.

 

[Ghostbone]

Care to elaborate? It's well established that you should not take Sheik to Smashville. A lot of people cp SV against Sheik and get rekkt as a result. Final Destination is one of my favorite CPs against Sheik so I need an explanation.

Needles.

More broadly, sheik has very little trouble resetting to neutral in comparison to other characters. It's a lot harder to recover/get off the ledge against sheik on FD than other stages and it's a lot harder to land without platforms (especially vs single needles at high %s)

 

[FeelMeUp]

Care to elaborate? It's well established that you should not take Sheik to Smashville. A lot of people cp SV against Sheik and get rekkt as a result. Final Destination is one of my favorite CPs against Sheik so I need an explanation.

To put it simply, there is nowhere to run or hide. Getting grabbed once at 0 means you're probably taking 50 and there are no platforms to aid you in getting away from her combo or needle pressure. SV might have random jank with the platform but many other characters can get that along with using it to escape from her fthrow setups. It has the added benefit of letting you kill Sheik extremely early as well. On BF it's just you, a big gap, and a character model full of needles. When you actually make it to her you end up getting combo'd harder than you would on any other stage. Not having platforms doesn't actually hurt her vs a good opponent, either, because she often gets the free neutral resets regardless of stage
Sorry if a bit incoherent. Running on almost no sleep.

Edit: and if anyone's wondering, Battlefield went to one of Sheik's best stages to....probably her worst in 1.1.5

 

[NairWizard]

By "glass cannon" Nobie intends to say "high-risk, high-reward," but when you apply this more accurate terminology to the character you can clearly see how the concept is misapplied. Mewtwo's mobility and ridiculous frame data allows him to avoid taking risks in neutral. This is the basis of his design: Mewtwo has the "swordsman" archetype, like Marth, meaning that he thrives off of fundamentals like spacing, patient play, and reaction. This style of play is inherently low-risk, but in addition to the usual swordsman package, Mewtwo also sports a great disadvantaged state that most swordsmen (and indeed most characters) would kill for. frame 6 death f-air alone is enough to make him better than roughly half the cast in disadvantage, not to mention his airdodge and teleport/shadow ball/confusion mixups.

There's no way that just being light and big makes him a glass cannon when you consider the rest of his design.

Fox is a hundred times more glass cannon than Mewtwo will ever be. Way worse recovery, eats a third of his stock every time he gets up-tilted (or eats a Luma jab lol), almost as light, with worse landing options and airspeed.

Mewtwo is also not a particularly difficult character to play. Mewtwo mains like to throw around words like "phasing" to make him seem more technical than he is but really it's just a fancy way of saying short hop air dodging, something that even Mario can utilize pretty well and there's nothing particularly technical or difficult about Mario. Mewtwo oozes kill moves (including two throws and a projectile), has a dominating neutral, and gets out of a lot of things for free. If anything, Mewtwo's one of the easiest characters to use effectively in the game, very Cloud- and Mario-esque.

I'm glad that people are paying attention to the character but let's represent him accurately. He's very good, and fairly easy to use.

 

[Pyr]

Mewtwo is really interesting. From release to now, he's gotten....

Nair LL 19 > 13
Fair LL 18 > 14
Uair LL 16 > 13
Bair LL 21 > 17
Dair LL 22 > 18

Fair Startup 7 > 6
Up-Smash FAF 74 > 69
Dair hitbox duration 2 > 4

F-Smash Sourspot 15% > 16%
Uair Damage 7.5% (far)/ 9% (mid) > 9%/10%
F-Throw total damage 10~% > 13%
Down Smash KBG buff

Walk Speed 1.1 > 1.2
Dash 1.696 > 2.05
Reworked Up Air
Bigger hitbox on Nair
Bigger hitboxes on UpAir
Bigger forward Smash hitbox
Better Bair X-Axis


The little science experiment has gotten a lot of love. Really took they style talked about above and gave him massive boosts for it.

 

[Nobie]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a character which has so many safe actions with very high damage output - augmented by disjoints, large range and mobility isn't a glass cannon, it's a light-weight hand held laser [machine] gun.
i.e. hello most high/top tiers in most smash games.

The only inherent risk to mewtwo seems to be the exact same risks every light character has. He's not like Fox who has an extremely exploitable recovery, or Jigglypuff/G&W (G&W was seen as and agreed upon as a glass cannon in the early meta of this game + also in Brawl) without the frame data or inherent move safety (especially on the ground!!!!) and are extremely punishable for their "cannon blowing". Playing an oppressively strong neutral game better than most of the cast, with a disadvantage better than other tops such as Diddy and Fox, with safe tools that double up as KO moves or KO set ups. Like.. where's the glass?

Mewtwo is just too well rounded to be a glass cannon, and Nobie you're the only one who really openly uses that term despite it not really making any sense (in his current paradigm).
Every weakness you talk of is always shared by other characters with similar moves (i.e. good characters), yet because someone can SH over a down tilt that makes mewtwo a glass cannon? Fair, a move that's meant to be melee range but can be out sped (by what exactly? 6F is pretty much the fastest you'll get for forward facing aerials and it's one of the best ranged ones in the game) or outdisjointed (DUH, Marth's fair outdisjointed sheiks at release, didn't mean that's a real weakness whatsoever or that Marth could ever beat Sheik's fair) expresses a huge amount of character bias to me.
Maybe not having a 2-3 frame start up move means you have a weakness... but seriously... that's just narrow minded. Characters with great range/disjoints, damage and such low start ups are... no one? ZSS maybe?, Falcon has a jab?

Ughh. Yes, maybe the design ideal was glass-cannony, as a very light weight and high damage output character suggests (again: nearly every top character in every smash game). But your definition of "glass" in smash4 seems whack or skewed to only possibly being able to refer to Mewtwo.
Or way too expansive (yet you refuse to ever use the term for any other top character but your main). Is Fox a glass cannon to you as well? Zero Suit? Rosalina? Zelda? What stops them from being glass cannons to you? Because all of them bar G&W/Jigglypuff/Zelda seem to have just about everything they need to function without needing to fear their fragility beyond what one would expect.

I don't mean to downplay Mewtwo's strengths, or act as if the character isn't good. D-tilt is ridiculously good, F-air contends for being the best fair in the game. I've argued in favor of Mewtwo's power too many times to pretend as if half of Mewtwo's arsenal isn't top-class for what those moves are. I'd argue that Mewtwo is somewhere in Top 10 to Top 15 right now.

When I say that Mewtwo's fair has its weaknesses, it's in the context of Mewtwo's entire arsenal. Frame 6 is suuuuper fast for a f-air that damn strong, but I don't think you can forget that it TIES for M2's fastest move with d-tilt. No frame 3 nair to break out of combos, no frame 2 jab to push opponents out when they get too close. It's not just that Mewtwo doesn't have a 2-3 frame startup move, it's that Mewtwo has NOTHING FASTER THAN FRAME 6. Rolls that have some of the worst invincibility to total frame data ratio in the game (though make up for it somewhat by sheer distance traveled). An air dodge that is, again, actually amazing, but comes as a double edged sword because it's comparatively more vulnerable to lingering hitboxes.

When Mewtwo is able to play its game, attack safely on shield, get away and strike, it does very well. But Mewtwo is also designed such that its moveset is not good at repelling the opponent once they're on top, which combined with being both light and huge means that the character is vulnerable to pressure in a way your other examples (except maybe Zelda) aren't.

Like when you watch Diddy fight Mewtwo, part of the reason Diddy is able to succeed is because he can just lay on the pressure and not let up (on top of having the kill confirms that someone like Sheik lacks).

 

[anas abou]

take shiek to smashville, get bouncing fish killed of the platform at 40 percent.

anyway, thought this would be an appropriate place to post my tier list, maybe get some discussion going http://imgur.com/ew6DErt

 

[Shady Shaymin]

take shiek to smashville, get bouncing fish killed of the platform at 40 percent.

anyway, thought this would be an appropriate place to post my tier list, maybe get some discussion going http://imgur.com/ew6DErt

That list is a mess. What is sheik doing outside of top 10, let alone top 5 with her current amazing results? Why are sonic and megaman so low? I can buy fox having the potential to be number one, but he doesn't have the results to prove it yet. The low tiers look about right for the most part but duck hunt doesn't belong there. Sorry, I don't agree at all with this list and I think we should hold off posting personal tier lists until at least after evo or not without explanations to supplement our placements.

 

[meleebrawler]

PK freeze is up there. At least when you hit flash you kill super early.

Luco already mentioned this, but the real use of PK Freeze is baiting a response (mainly airdodges) from the opponent with it's very low endlag and fast travel speed. Din's Fire and Samus's homing missiles also find their best use in this niche, even if they're not as good as Freeze.

Lots of projectiles may not be good in their traditional role of keepaway or harassment, but have alternate uses, like Gordo's ledge pressure or Clown Cannon covering space with held Mechakoopa and edgeguarding with it's slow movement and downward trajectory at the end.

By "glass cannon" Nobie intends to say "high-risk, high-reward," but when you apply this more accurate terminology to the character you can clearly see how the concept is misapplied. Mewtwo's mobility and ridiculous frame data allows him to avoid taking risks in neutral. This is the basis of his design: Mewtwo has the "swordsman" archetype, like Marth, meaning that he thrives off of fundamentals like spacing, patient play, and reaction. This style of play is inherently low-risk, but in addition to the usual swordsman package, Mewtwo also sports a great disadvantaged state that most swordsmen (and indeed most characters) would kill for. frame 6 death f-air alone is enough to make him better than roughly half the cast in disadvantage, not to mention his airdodge and teleport/shadow ball/confusion mixups.

There's no way that just being light and big makes him a glass cannon when you consider the rest of his design.

Fox is a hundred times more glass cannon than Mewtwo will ever be. Way worse recovery, eats a third of his stock every time he gets up-tilted (or eats a Luma jab lol), almost as light, with worse landing options and airspeed.

Mewtwo is also not a particularly difficult character to play. Mewtwo mains like to throw around words like "phasing" to make him seem more technical than he is but really it's just a fancy way of saying short hop air dodging, something that even Mario can utilize pretty well and there's nothing particularly technical or difficult about Mario. Mewtwo oozes kill moves (including two throws and a projectile), has a dominating neutral, and gets out of a lot of things for free. If anything, Mewtwo's one of the easiest characters to use effectively in the game, very Cloud- and Mario-esque.

I'm glad that people are paying attention to the character but let's represent him accurately. He's very good, and fairly easy to use.

Basically every (good) glass cannon in any fighting game is able to play risk-free with proper execution. They kind of have to to have a remote chance of being viable.

You're right that Mewtwo is closest to a swordsman in style, and that type is just plain easier to understand. But there are still things that can easily trip up new players, more so than Cloud or Mario.

• Terrible air deceleration giving him almost Ryu-level commitment on jump-ins. Confusion is too slow for aggressive mixups here and double-jumping gives too much space to the opponent.
• Not-so-good rolls and a poor initial dash.
• Teleport stage mishaps.
• While his recovery is great with plentiful options (although getting his double-jump sniped below stage is usually a death sentence), his ledge options aren't nearly as effective, and even when you do know more advanced techniques here, they still have rather high commitment.

In addition, his ability to reset to neutral (not combo break) isn't bad, but it's only "free" against very slow opponents; faster ones like most top tiers can generally keep up despite his attempts to mixup his landing, so he needs to make correct guesses to land safely, or go to the ledge for his risky game there.

That list is a mess. What is sheik doing outside of top 10, let alone top 5 with her current amazing results? Why are sonic and megaman so low? I can buy fox having the potential to be number one, but he doesn't have the results to prove it yet. The low tiers look about right for the most part but duck hunt doesn't belong there. Sorry, I don't agree at all with this list and I think we should hold off posting personal tier lists until at least after evo or not without explanations to supplement our placements.

What did I say about replying to zero-justification tier lists?

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Pikachu is still the poor man's Fox.

So much of Pika's gameplan (i.e. QA, jab-locks, combos, etc.) rely on one of two things: (a) opponent lacking of MU knowledge (dealing with QA for example), or (b) the opponent messing up (i.e. missing a tech leadin). Take Fox, his gameplan is much more about him NOT messing up.

While they generally share attributes such as speed, good frame data, relying on kill confirms, exploitable recoveries, being light, possibly struggling to kill, decent combo breakers, etc. at the end of the day, Fox just comes out on top. His confirms are more varied and reliable, he's faster, his projectile is better, he relies less on gimmicks (referring to QA shenanigans and crouching), his MU spread seems better, and we just know more about the character.
(And I hate to be the guy to bring bidou into the discussion, but I'm certain that bidou Fox is the best character bidou has to offer).

"(And I hate to be the guy to bring bidou into the discussion, but I'm certain that bidou Fox is the best character bidou has to offer)" Lowkey Bidou Mac is top 10 in the game.

 

[aεrgiα]

about the counterpicking thing, i thought it would be relevant to mention abadangos thoughts on the matter(or at least they used to be his thoughts on the matter; https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3v2lgg/abadangos_thoughts_on_counterpicking_and/ ), which i find relevant because while we did see a lot of advantages gained by counterpicking at ceo, abas thoughts on the cons were also visible, abas pac may have won him one game, but it also lost him the other, dabuz olimar also won various games, but at the same time it put him in the position where he had to chose between being counterpicked himself, being figured out etc or using his main, in a bad match up, or one it wasnt working out in, and it seems he was sometimes unsure who to go. while im not trying to inherently argue against using multiple characters, i thought it would be worth pointing out, especially since a lot of people have been talking about needing a secondary to succeed and ceo proving it, which imo is cherrypicking, and not looking at the whole picture(pointing to anti yet ignoring zinotos amazing run, pointing to where counterpicks worked, but ignoring when they didnt work out etc)

PK freeze is up there. At least when you hit flash you kill super early.

although luco and meleebrawler already pointed out the main use, id like to add that it can also be useful for offstage harrasing, if only by forcing them to go low or maybe even making them airdodge, which pkfreeze loves it also has a use in catching landings, and while other options are better most of the time, i still sometimes find a use for it :/

 

[Ulevo]

It is likely a per match up basis, but I would never take a Sheik to Smashville, especially post patch. Most of Sheik's kills come from the side now, and while DI'ing her set ups correctly ensures you can dodge things like up air or Vanish, she can still guarantee forward air. This will sometimes kill you on Smashville exclusively because of the small blasr zone width, while on Final Destination she has to work that much harder for her kills. Not to mention that since the stage is larger, you are less likely to get thrown off stage into an edge guard situation. Smashville being smaller means that it is also harder to land and control the available stage space since you have less room to give up stage control to space since Sheik's neutral is so dominant. You need to play against Sheik in such a way that you respect her CQC without giving her room to Needle and doing that on Smashville's tiny layout can be difficult.

Meta Knight is fast, light, has mid air jumps and solid combo potential, so it might differ for other characters, but I would much rather give Sheik more room to move and single Needle at high percent while making it substantially harder for her to kill because she is going to mess up eventually. This situation is much more favourable than having to beat a Sheik who takes a stock lead because I got killed by forward air or carried off the side thanks to Smashville's platform.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo counter play in America sucks. Abadango and 9B don't do as well there as over here with Mewtwo because Japan actually takes Mewtwo seriously unlike here in the U.S.

I've said it before, and I will say it again: Mewtwo becoming the poster boy for "Glass Cannons" was the worse thing to ever happen to this character.

This meme has been substituted for any actual Mewtwo knowledge for so many players.

Anyway . . . .



Mewtwo's light weight isn't his only problem.

• He's got good kill throws, but his grab range really isn't that good. It's workable but whiffs sometimes. even more so on characters like
• poor traction, aforementioned grab range, frame 5 jump squat, and no fast aerials makes Mewtwo's OOS game very weak. Characters like can bully his shield with his disjointed sword attacks.
• mediocre air acceleration and average gravity makes Mewtwo's movement in the air awkward, and not really good.
• His Nair has very strong combos but has terrible hit boxes; it will lose a trade to about every other move.
• Mewtwo has a serious blind spot from behind him. If you managed to get in that zone, all he will be able to do is side tilt or back air; both are weak and slow
• His rolls are bad.
• His tech rolls and get ups are slow and easily punishable
• His ledge get up options are not good at all. His roll is slow, his get up attack is horrible, and his mid air jump is too slow to catch his opponent with ledge drop. His recovery is good but getting on stage against characters like is a real struggle, if you know to pressure Mewtwo there.

 

[Ghostbone]

He's got good kill throws, but his grab range really isn't that good. It's workable but whiffs sometimes. even more so on characters like

This isn't really an issue because his run speed is so fast so his running grab is still really good.

poor traction, aforementioned grab range, frame 5 jump squat, and no fast aerials makes Mewtwo's OOS game very weak. Characters like can bully his shield with his disjointed sword attacks.

Fair OoS is really good so I don't think this is really true. Something I noticed back at BAM 8 was Abadango consistently using fair OoS do deal with sheik landing fair > jab mixups from Mr. R, and anyone who can deal with sheik's shield pressure has good OoS options lol.

His Nair has very strong combos but has terrible hit boxes; it will lose a trade to about every other move.

I think they're better than you're giving them credit for since the patch.

His rolls are bad.

Abadango spams roll all the time, it's slow but the distance is great so it makes up for it.

Just a few thoughts

 

[Y2Kay]

This isn't really an issue because his run speed is so fast so his running grab is still really good.

Fair OoS is really good so I don't think this is really true. Something I noticed back at BAM 8 was Abadango consistently using fair OoS do deal with sheik landing fair > jab mixups from Mr. R, and anyone who can deal with sheik's shield pressure has good OoS options lol.

I think they're better than you're giving them credit for since the patch.
Abadango spams roll all the time, it's slow but the distance is great so it makes up for it.

Just a few thoughts

• His run speed does circumvent this some, but it can still be a problem. Abadango and other Mewtwos do whiff grabs a lot that would usually work with other characters.
• Mewtwo's OOS options aren't the worst, sure. OOS Fair doesn't seem super practical to me with the way the hitboxes sweeps underneath his body. I'll go back and rewatch the set.
• Nair's buff only made the move connect properly, it still sucks at trades
• Aba spams roll when he's nervous and should be punished for it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't think Mewtwo is "hard to play" in a technical sense like Peach, or in an endurance way like Sheik. He's just very awkward to use upon picking him up for a number of reasons, which probably also explains his low player base.

Besides being light, Mewtwo is also very floaty. His slow fall speed and air mobility properties make him just feel weird when you control him at first. Some characters have fall speeds and mobility properties that makes them just feel right, and handle more intuitively. Diddy and Fox both have this for me, their mobility stats just feel good to control. Controlling mewtwo feels more like controlling a balloon.

EDIT: Granted, you're controlling a balloon with katanas, lasers, and a thousand ways to kill people as Shaya put it, but it's still a balloon, and many people would prefer something that feels more responsive. Comfort is important.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo's run speed buff went a long way in alleviating some of the characters's grab woes, but they're still not entirely gone.

As for rolls, Mewtwo is invincible from frames 4 to 13 and it is a 30 frame roll. That means even if you ignore the 3 frame startup, it's still more vulnerable than most rolls. Basically, Mewtwo's back roll is pretty good because it allows for a speedy retreat, but the forward roll is a serious and scary commitment that can be beat out on sheer accident because Mewtwo often loses invulnerability as it's crossing behind.

 

[Luco]

Something I know from playing a lot against our best Mewtwo is that OoS Fair is really good, 5-frame jump-squat and 6-frame Fair are still unreactable and only really loses to anticipatory actions, mostly other good OoS options. The SH / DJ Fair actually does a great job of hitting opponents in front of him quickly.

That being said Ghostbone I think players, including high level ones are too scared of M2's Nair when really it does lose to a lot of stuff and especially giving Mewtwo the respect he deserves if he's using it I know I can just do an aerial and trade very very favourably. In my case as Ness I go for Bair and it's just really really good. @SaucyDancer if he still comes on to the boards might be able to share info on how that looks in other MUs.

Nair is a great move for M2 and leads into plenty of things but if it whiffs by missing you for whatever reason (which it totally can) then M2 should be getting punished.

 

[Ghostbone]

Mewtwo is also very floaty. His slow fall speed and air mobility properties make him just feel weird when you control him at first.

Oh my god can this myth just die.

Mewtwo is not a floaty, his fall speed is decidedly average.

"Air mobility properties" what are you even referring to. His air speed is top tier lol

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't think Mewtwo is "hard to play" in a technical sense like Peach, or in an endurance way like Sheik. He's just very awkward to use upon picking him up for a number of reasons, which probably also explains his low player base.

Besides being light, Mewtwo is also very floaty. His slow fall speed and air mobility properties make him just feel weird when you control him at first. Some characters have fall speeds and mobility properties that makes them just feel right, and handle more intuitively. Diddy and Fox both have this for me, their mobility stats just feel good to control. Controlling mewtwo feels more like controlling a balloon and it definitely takes getting used to.

Oh my god can this myth just die.

Mewtwo is not a floaty, his fall speed is decidedly average.

"Air mobility properties" what are you even referring to. His air speed is top tier lol

It's not his fall speed or air mobility that causes this awkwardness. He isn't even floaty, he has the fall speed of Mario and an air speed slightly worse than Jigglypuff. His air acceleration and gravity are below average, preventing him from really abusing his air speed.

Abadango has presented a simple but effective Mewtwo gameplan, but I am not satisfied with this, nor have I seen any other people replicated to success remotely as close as Abadango. Me and a lot of Mewtwo's are pushing his metagame farther. Just take a peek in our character boards. We have loads of information there and there is plenty of Mewtwo specific tech out there that Abadango hasn't been utilizing yet (though he is getting better at it)

 

[meticulousboy]

I agree with Shady Shaymin on the fact that Mewtwo has an awkward mobility that newbies would question. But I see why some call him technical: lightweight combo food that acts like a glass cannon. Lightweight! Most lightweights aren't this easy to hit. I bet he still had these attributes in Melee, but nobody used him in majors.
Peach in Smash 4 is a different story. One just has to know how to float and at what height. She does have the highest air acceleration in the game while having the second slowest fall speed.

 

[Vhaltz]

• Nair's buff only made the move connect properly, it still sucks at trades

This would be the case for any multihit move that trades with a single hit move though? Obviously Nair isn't a catch-all option to spam in all circumstances, but it's still really good at what it does so saying that it sucks at trades feels like deliberate underselling of the move.

In fact I'd argue that being able to trade with moves due to the active and very mobile hitbox of Nair can help with gimping in edgeguard situations, so this property wouldn't be exclusively a downside either.

 

[Mr. Johan]

He also can't weave in the air as well as some characters.

To inject some personal experience as an example, many a time against the Mewtwo in my state, I found Robin's retreating Fair to be a reliable check to a lot of his air approaches. Actually, Robin Fair is pretty much Mewtwo Fair, starting under and chaining into itself, the only real difference being it sacrfices startup for disjoint and Robin's better deceleration to get him in place. I think Fair clips Mewtwo's hand while his Fair goes over Robin's head, the move hits Mewtwo before the startup on Shadow Ball is complete, and the lingering hitbox (albeit sour) will still connect on Mewtwo if he airdodges. And Mewtwo can't afford to take 13% over and over on someone with a grab confirm and a trapping projectile that Confusion cannot threaten to backfire.

Retreating attacks may be the name of the game versus Mewtwo. He's got the hyper offense, but he still has to earn it. Don't let him as best you can.

 

[meticulousboy]

Mewtwo's Neutral Air is alright. It's a good choice out of shield, and has decent coverage on all ledge recovery options, even ledge get up.
My question: is his Nair better than Lucas'?

 

[Y2Kay]

This would be the case for any multihit move that trades with a single hit move though? Obviously Nair isn't a catch-all option to spam in all circumstances, but it's still really good at what it does so saying that it sucks at trades feels like deliberate underselling of the move.

In fact I'd argue that being able to trade with moves due to the active and very mobile hitbox of Nair can help with gimping in edgeguard situations, so this property wouldn't be exclusively a downside either.

I know this is a propert of Multihit moves, but the thing is is that Mewtwo can DIE for losing a trade, and that's a big deal.

You are right it can gimp. For example, 's barrelpacks get knocked clean off from the weak hits of Nair. FF Nair can also drag down characters like for kills.

Mewtwo's Neutral Air is alright. It's a good choice out of shield, and has decent coverage on all ledge recovery options, even ledge get up.
My question: is his Nair better than Lucas'?

Hell yes.

 

[Luco]

This would be the case for any multihit move that trades with a single hit move though? Obviously Nair isn't a catch-all option to spam in all circumstances, but it's still really good at what it does so saying that it sucks at trades feels like deliberate underselling of the move.

In fact I'd argue that being able to trade with moves due to the active and very mobile hitbox of Nair can help with gimping in edgeguard situations, so this property wouldn't be exclusively a downside either.

This is of course true, but Mewtwo's Nair in particular seems to have weird SDI properties on particular hits iirc. Kinda like a certain PK Kid.

And funny that topic would then come up, because AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT Mewtwo's Nair is indeed better than Lucas', harder to SDI out of (even given the above paragraph, it's probably more consistent) and leads into similarly amazing stuff as well as being safer on shield.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Couple of points I noticed.

1: His grab pretty much sucks when used normally, even if running. The only thing that makes up for this is that his boost grab and RCG are pretty and really good. When used correctly, they are mediocre. Quite a high leap from questionable at best.

2: Bouncing off the stage. Please learn spacing. There are multiple spots known as "Dead Zones" that any character will die from, except Mewtwo's teleport. You guys saw Nairo at CEO right? The pineapple? Mewtwo can teleport into that zone and reach the ledge. if he goes too much further beneath the stage, he will bounce. Also, remember the 50 frames rule and never teleport too close to the ledge horizontally, as that can cause an upwards bounce.

3: Mewtwo's frame data for rolls is 4-13 with an FAF of 30. He has the lowest invincibility frames out of anyone barring LM, with 4-12. The difference is that LM has an FAF of 27, making it better. Mewtwo can get away with rolling for multiple reasons. First, it is long. His roll actually goes pretty far, making it great when paired with Dtilt. Otherwise, Roll is mediocre at best. Plus, Mewtwo's only other good defensive options are frame 7 Phase or frame 9 LC (Invincibility).

4: The nair hitboxes help the move combo better. Try challenging it with a ZSS jab. Each hit deals 1% according to KH (Thought it was .7...) So, including the fact that it is an aerial and that each hit happens every 3 frames, this isn't that hard to beat. The hardest thing is reacting correctly. He uses it so much because the reward outweighs the risk.

5: Can you buffer a move during Jumpsquat to make it come out earlier? Otherwise, Fair OoS is a frame 11 option. If it can overlap, then it is frame 7 at best. I think it has to do with hurtbox positioning, as Mewtwo goes horizontal while using Fair, that he can beat Shiek pressure. That and perfect shields.

6: His ledge options suck... but I can't say how bad until I learn LLG. That might turn it around. LLG, DJCSB and Disable as well as Fall-back DJ Uair-Confusion/Teleport make for an okay game.

7: His fastest move is frame 6... However, his moves are pretty fast for there type. He doesn't have any low frame moves, but otherwise his moves are pretty fast for Smashes and aerials.

8: His best combobreaker is a frame 2 airdodge. We punish airdodges... easily... I have labbed sooo many frame traps with Mewtwo. Airdodge one follow-up, get combo'ed harder then before. The only way airdodge works well as a combo breaker is if the opponent isn't expecting it, which they should, since the next best option only hits in front and is frame 6.

9:

Mewtwo is really interesting. From release to now, he's gotten....

Nair LL 19 > 13
Fair LL 18 > 14
Uair LL 16 > 13
Bair LL 21 > 17
Dair LL 22 > 18

Fair Startup 7 > 6
Up-Smash FAF 74 > 69
Dair hitbox duration 2 > 4

F-Smash Sourspot 15% > 16%
Uair Damage 7.5% (far)/ 9% (mid) > 9%/10%
F-Throw total damage 10~% > 13%
Down Smash KBG buff

Walk Speed 1.1 > 1.2
Dash 1.696 > 2.05
Reworked Up Air
Bigger hitbox on Nair
Bigger hitboxes on UpAir
Bigger forward Smash hitbox
Better Bair X-Axis


The little science experiment has gotten a lot of love. Really took they style talked about above and gave him massive boosts for it.

I have a write-up on what the buffs did (in-depth) in my guide. Check it out for some more info!
http://smashboards.com/guides/studying-in-the-cerulean-cave-a-comprehensive-guide-to-mewtwo.744/

10:

By "glass cannon" Nobie intends to say "high-risk, high-reward," but when you apply this more accurate terminology to the character you can clearly see how the concept is misapplied. Mewtwo's mobility and ridiculous frame data allows him to avoid taking risks in neutral. This is the basis of his design: Mewtwo has the "swordsman" archetype, like Marth, meaning that he thrives off of fundamentals like spacing, patient play, and reaction. This style of play is inherently low-risk, but in addition to the usual swordsman package, Mewtwo also sports a great disadvantaged state that most swordsmen (and indeed most characters) would kill for. frame 6 death f-air alone is enough to make him better than roughly half the cast in disadvantage, not to mention his airdodge and teleport/shadow ball/confusion mixups.

There's no way that just being light and big makes him a glass cannon when you consider the rest of his design.

Fox is a hundred times more glass cannon than Mewtwo will ever be. Way worse recovery, eats a third of his stock every time he gets up-tilted (or eats a Luma jab lol), almost as light, with worse landing options and airspeed.

Mewtwo is also not a particularly difficult character to play. Mewtwo mains like to throw around words like "phasing" to make him seem more technical than he is but really it's just a fancy way of saying short hop air dodging, something that even Mario can utilize pretty well and there's nothing particularly technical or difficult about Mario. Mewtwo oozes kill moves (including two throws and a projectile), has a dominating neutral, and gets out of a lot of things for free. If anything, Mewtwo's one of the easiest characters to use effectively in the game, very Cloud- and Mario-esque.

I'm glad that people are paying attention to the character but let's represent him accurately. He's very good, and fairly easy to use.

Lets get to thee fun stuff eh?

First off, Safe in neutral. You make it sound like Mewtwo doesn't have to take risks, because his frame data is good enough to keep him safe. Let's go!

Fair:
Frame 6
Landing Lag: 14 frames
Shieldstun: 9.42
Advantage on drop: +2

Notes: So, he has +2 on drop. However, he has a -5 otherwise. This, in combination with lackluster rolls and mediocre frame data, means that you have a minimum of 9 frames to punish Mewtwo OoS. If Mewtwo slightly mispaces, then he can get grabbed. Otherwise, he has a gigantic vertical hitbox, making it pretty easy for Fairs to hit. Now, here is the main point. Mewtwo CANNOT combo off of tipper Fair. Inn order to combo, he has to hit with the close hitbox or the center for less reward. Thus, he has a choice, semi-safe/low-reward, not safe/medium reward or Really unsafe/High reward. That is the context of Fair. Pick your poison. Now, Fair is a really good move, but there is more to it then you make it seem.

Dtilt:
Frame 6
FAF: 21
Shieldstun: 4.85 (Base) Otherwise it is safe because of distance.
Advantage on Drop: -1

Okay. So, this move falls into the same category as the one above Tipper gets low reward at low percents, and none at high. However, it is safe. Tail gets okay rewards at low, Fair and Usmash, but not much at medium and none at high. Although, it is pretty safe. Base gets high reward until 115%, but is unsafe on Shield. Now, a -1 on drop means that the opponent has at least 5 frames to act on shield drop. This is plenty of time to punish Mewtwo, plus, OoS is -8, -12 if you Factor in roll start-up. With the base hit, you can sometimes even shield-grab Mewtwo, as it doesn't send you sliding that far. Again, pick your poison.

BTW, I am not even going to cover perfect Shields... Those numbers are never good.

Shadowball is pretty safe. As long as Mewtwo doesn't commit to one at the wrong range. It comes out frame 23, and frame 6 if you are charging it. So, if you notice your opponent throwing out SB's recklessly, then wait for him to throw one out, predict that he will do it again and punish the third of a second lag. Even if you don't hit him, you can still gain stage-control.

He has a TON of kill moves, and you haven't even seen his good combos. Otherwise, I have all of his shieldstun numbers as well as outdated thoughts on it in my guide: http://smashboards.com/guides/studying-in-the-cerulean-cave-a-comprehensive-guide-to-mewtwo.744/

Phasing was put into use by us when we were trying to name specific tech like DJCSBCBSD. The name was popularized in KillerJawz's video on the subject. Sadly, DJCSBCBSD never got a name. Now, Phasing isn't that technical, but Nair is. This guide is woefully shallow. I don't have the time to update it as of now, but I will double its length in a month or two. http://smashboards.com/guides/mewtwos-nair-knockback-and-all-of-its-uses-and-forms.856/

Then, Mewtwo's combos aren't the easiest either. And I am not talking about Footstool-Disable. That one is easy. Even adding Nair to it barely makes it as hard as Nairway-to-Heaven(super-cringey) or Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-Dtilt-Nair-DJ Uair-Uair. Try it. Get it to true. You also have random footstool combos, LC combos platform lock stuff like Dtilt-SB lock-Disable-SB tumble-SB lock-Disable-Combo. You also have forward hit of Bair combos, Dair combos that I can still never get to true for some dumb reason and Janky Uair trees. This is his combo game alone. Otherwise, to correctly play Mewtwo, you need to learn as much about the character as possible. He has multiple optimal playstyles, ranging from Defensive to Aggressive. However, each playsstyle has it's specific time and place. Abadango knows how to utilize each playstyle perfectly. I personally forget how to switch back to the optimal one mid-match, as it is quite aggravating to switch momentum like that. You also have LC, which is janky at best because of Mewtwo's ending of teleport. The best way is to slide off the platform by teleporting into it. Abadango decides to be extra stylish and teleport into the corner, which is much stricter and can cause Mewtwo to suffer severe endlag in a disadvantageous position. Besides Combos, LC and playstyles, you also have SB usage. It is pretty easy to see that Abadango sucks at using SB outside of edge-guarding. Hopefully he optimizes it by Evo. SB usage is complicated, as each form serves a different purpose. Mini SB's are great for hounding the opponent and Jab-locking, while still giving you access to Wave-SB and B-reverse/wavebounce SB. Medium charge gives you a 12% projectile that can't really kill, but gives you access to aforementioned techs and the possibility of easily full charging it. FC deals 26% and kills. Plus, it leads into vortex situations.

Ok. I am getting tired. I have more to say, but for a later time.

Ghostbone Here is what KH has to say on the subject.

"Well gravity is falling speed acceleration. For what it's worth Mewtwo is fairly floaty sitting on Mario's fall speed with the 38th highest gravity. Personally I think the floaty characters start from Palutena/Charizard down. (It's probably closer to being in the eye of the beholder)"
Also, while he has top tier Air SPEED, he has the 44th worst air acceleration at 0.05.

V Vhaltz Your move will deal more then 1%. As long as you use a Diddy Fair or something, it is an extremely good trade. Plus, you will go nowhere while M2 could go flying.

 

[NewZen]

Question: Vs

Since Mewtwo's overall usage is still being discussed, what information can be gained from this MU? I would suspect that a few of his options are taken away due to the overall pressure Villager has with Pocket mainly, but that Mewtwo's overall aerial game trumps Villager when they're either in a disadvantageous state or not throwing out N-air and F-air/B-air frequently, and even then, Mewtwo has Confusion to deal with any projectile and pocketed projectiles, as well.

 

[Locke 06]

"Okay. So, this move falls into the same category as the one above Tipper gets low reward at low percents, and none at high. However, it is safe. Tail gets okay rewards at low, Fair and Usmash, but not much at medium and none at high. Although, it is pretty safe. Base gets high reward until 115%, but is unsafe on Shield. Now, a -1 on drop means that the opponenthas at least 5 frames to act on shield drop. This is plenty of time to punish Mewtwo, plus, OoS is -8, -12 if you Factor in roll start-up. With the base hit, you can sometimes even shield-grab Mewtwo, as it doesn't send you sliding that far. Again, pick your poison."

What are you talking about? -1 on shield drop is not reliably punishable. If you're talking about stuffing repeated dtilt, sure they have 6f to hit mewtwo. But he can also shield (auto powershielding buffered 2-4f moves like Diddy dtilt) & punish.

With shield lock, single dtilt is potentially +2 or +3 on shield drop.

Let's not forget about that range.

You get positional advantage at high %. A safe way to break neutral. The same reason people complain about Sheik single needle despite its reward at high %.

 

[Sonicninja115]

"Okay. So, this move falls into the same category as the one above Tipper gets low reward at low percents, and none at high. However, it is safe. Tail gets okay rewards at low, Fair and Usmash, but not much at medium and none at high. Although, it is pretty safe. Base gets high reward until 115%, but is unsafe on Shield. Now, a -1 on drop means that the opponenthas at least 5 frames to act on shield drop. This is plenty of time to punish Mewtwo, plus, OoS is -8, -12 if you Factor in roll start-up. With the base hit, you can sometimes even shield-grab Mewtwo, as it doesn't send you sliding that far. Again, pick your poison."

What are you talking about? -1 on shield drop is not reliably punishable. If you're talking about stuffing repeated dtilt, sure they have 6f to hit mewtwo. But he can also shield (auto powershielding buffered 2-4f moves like Diddy dtilt) & punish.

With shield lock, single dtilt is potentially +2 or +3 on shield drop.

Let's not forget about that range.

You get positional advantage at high %. A safe way to break neutral. The same reason people complain about Sheik single needle despite its reward at high %.

The repeated Dtilt is -7 on Shield. I was using Roll as it is the fastest escape option.

Refresher on shield lock please? I am using the standard frames for shielding. 1-3 PS, with the lock until frame whatever and drop lag until 7 frames after that. I did these numbers after the patch came out and checked them with the calculator recently.

A tipper and Tail Dtilt is safe and reliable. My main point is that in order for M2 to get a better punish, he has to take more risks. So, a Base Dtilt is -1 on shield. -8 on OoS. Mewtwo's fastest move to escape is frame 4, being roll. Other options are spotdodge, but spotdodge has other problems like double grab. So, on Shield drop, Mewtwo is -5 on escape and -7 on counterattack. On OoS option, Mewtwo is -12 on Escape and -14 on counterattack.

My main point is that while most of Dtilt is safe, and Base Dtilt isn't super punishable, it is still an unsafe option to randomly throw out in neutral. It is definitely an option, and should be used, but it is nowhere near Shieks Fair or Diddy's Dtilt. It isn't completely safe and unpunishable.

 

[DJBor]

As a current Villager main and former Mewtwo main, the matchup can go either way. Mewtwo's speed is miles better than Villager's, but Villager's wall of projectiles can keep space between the two until Mewtwo can begin a combo. Pocket can be used to steal Shadow Ball, but Timber can be reversed with Confusion. Any advantage that one character has, there's an equal amount that the other has.

 

[Locke 06]

The repeated Dtilt is -7 on Shield. I was using Roll as it is the fastest escape option.

Refresher on shield lock please? I am using the standard frames for shielding. 1-3 PS, with the lock until frame whatever and drop lag until 7 frames after that. I did these numbers after the patch came out and checked them with the calculator recently.

A tipper and Tail Dtilt is safe and reliable. My main point is that in order for M2 to get a better punish, he has to take more risks. So, a Base Dtilt is -1 on shield. -8 on OoS. Mewtwo's fastest move to escape is frame 4, being roll. Other options are spotdodge, but spotdodge has other problems like double grab. So, on Shield drop, Mewtwo is -5 on escape and -7 on counterattack. On OoS option, Mewtwo is -12 on Escape and -14 on counterattack.

My main point is that while most of Dtilt is safe, and Base Dtilt isn't super punishable, it is still an unsafe option to randomly throw out in neutral. It is definitely an option, and should be used, but it is nowhere near Shieks Fair or Diddy's Dtilt. It isn't completely safe and unpunishable.

Shield is a fine option... Mewtwo's spotdodge is also significantly less of a commitment than most grabs, especially dash grabs, since we're talking about shield dropping.

If you are out of shield stun before f11, you have to wait until f11 to drop your shield. With 4f of shield stun, if it's shielded on f4-6, it has an ambiguous extra 3-1f of 'artificial advantage' on shield drop.

Sheik's FAir requires her to jump.
Diddy Dtilt doesn't have as much range.

Edit: Comparing it to 2 of the safest moves in the game doesn't really help you argue "this isn't as good as you think it is"

 

[Vhaltz]

V Vhaltz Your move will deal more then 1%. As long as you use a Diddy Fair or something, it is an extremely good trade. Plus, you will go nowhere while M2 could go flying.

Yeah I understood the idea. My point was that this doesn't apply only to mewtwo, any multihit will work the same way so you have to make sure you aren't getting challenged head on when you press the multihit button regardless of your character.

And thank god it works that way because otherwise people would just constantly fish for the recently discovered Mewtwo infinite with little room for punishment outside of shielding and attempting to chase after their good air speed.