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Dtilt may lose to SH in theory, but the range at which dtilt reaches means the opponents have to aggress with their SH and commit while dtilt can poke and is incredibly low commitment.
You don't have to be a top level player to notice the best Sheik's out there out neutral their opponents to 160+ only to get hit once and die at 80. If this were only happening to mid level Sheiks you'd have a point. But it clearly is a major issue for her at all levels of play.
Are we talking about single Needles or charged, stocked up Needles? 'Cause if you're talking about single Needles, yeah, of course they're not safe at close range, but long range? Zoning? Stage control? Establishing your area? Harassment? Stalling? That's something they can do well. Damage doesn't matter when you can zone the hell of your opponents. Charged Needles just add in being safe at pretty much any range, being able setup, and of course, more damage.
Both. Single are unsafe due to ending lag, charged are very unsafe if whiffed (due to decent amount of active time). An option that unsafe at mid range is not good to establish stage control with imo.
Citing circumstances where a character struggles to kill against some of the most skilled and top level players in the world doesn't seem like a valid argument against the character being outside of top 5. We know that sheik's killing tools are mediocre, and we know that seeing the ugly dark red triple digits under your opponent's icon sometimes happens if you play sheik at the highest level. I don't see how that changes
Das Koopa
's system and seeing consistent results at top level play even after devastating nerfsHold on.Citing circumstances where a character struggles to kill against some of the most skilled and top level players in the world doesn't seem like a valid argument against the character being outside of top 5. We know that sheik's killing tools are mediocre, and we know that seeing the ugly dark red triple digits under your opponent's icon sometimes happens if you play sheik at the highest level. I don't see how that changes
-needles still being a contender for best move in the game and a headache for most of the cast
-some of the best mobility and frame data in the game
-still having 50/50 kill confirms off of relatively safe tilts
-still having a burst mobility move that stock caps, edgeguards, can be combo'd into, and bounces off of shield
-being the only character that actually decisively beats Cloud
-finally and most importantly, having the highest ranking in
So now that needles are somewhat more punishable and short ranged, they all of a sudden aren't still really good? Did 1.1.5 remove the transcendent priority, the stupidly low startup upon usage, and the kill confirm into bouncing fish off of their aerial form?
The kill confirm was made much harder afaik. Now I've only seen it work in offstage situations. I do agree needles are still good for edge guarding.
Falco lasers are nowhere near as fast as needles. Power shielding lasers is so easy I could practically do it while drunk. Falco lasers can't force approaches like needles can, which while they aren't super long ranged, are chargeable and therefore inherently force approaches.
No other supposed top tier has opponent's regularly living to obscene percents. Which is amplified by the fact that Sheik is light and rage exists.
That's because you're not supposed to use them at close-range? Projectiles aren't freaking swords. There is few times you'd want to use a projectile point blank. Unless it's really powerful like the typical charge shot, have high knockback like PK Fire, has some property like being able to drag people out like Shakunetsu, or is a shotgun, projectiles are meant to be used at range. Projectiles that are confirmed into aren't as prominent in Smash for various reasons unlike in traditional 2D fighting games. The only one that comes to mind that don't have those properties I described above is Falco's Blaster...
Damage is damage and some people panic when then get hit. It's not the damage Needle Storm is about, but the (strangely) high knockback that pisses people off. Projectiles harass. Harassment causes agitation and people make poor decisions when agitated. That's the point of a lot of projectiles, the point of zoning, to force a poor reaction. Some projectiles just do more which Needle Storm as I've already outlined. Whether that's chip damage, high damage, knockback, stalling, damage per second (hi, F.A.N.G. and Olimar's White Pikmin), whatever. It's pressure. It just so happens Needle Storm's pressure is long-range. Also, why are you talking about Limit Charge, a passive threat that does no damage when you brought up Needle Storm, an active threat, a projectile, that does damage?
Bringing in what is the worst projectile in the game to compare is not really a good idea. Falco's Blaster has low set knockback instead of regular knockback that even low knockback projectiles like Fireballs are safer at close-range and it has 48 recovery frames grounded and 41 in the air. The lasers are visible and travel much slower. Even at long-range and on-hit, Falco's Blaster fails to be safe against anyone with decent mobility. Sheik's single Needles at least manage to be safe at long-range on-hit and sometimes whiff. Those 5 less recovery frames do make a difference.
When did Din's Fire stop existing?
... I'd be quite interested in seeing that, actually.
probably a contender too, can't find much of any footage of players like Ven using it (Slash surprisingly used a lot for multiple purposes)
Guile's fireballs in most Street Fighter games say hi just to name one example. Sorry but you are flatout wrong about all projectiles having high recovery times. Especially weird coming from someone that claims to understand traditional fighters.
good thing needle storm comes out on frame 1, fair is still one of the best anti-approach/approach tools in the game, and needle charges in general can be cancelled without significant lag.
Yes but the point is you don't have to commit to your jump in unlike most traditional fighters.
you.....seem to not understand how needles work.
Nearly everything in that video I've been doing since Brawl. I'm well aware of how needles work. And how they don't work.
Needle endlag hasn't been nerfed since 1.0.4 and needle knockback has never been touched. Maybe range nerfs reduced its effective range, but I don't know if needlefish worked at max needle range in the first place, and as far as the needles actually hitting is concerned it's no different than it has been as far as the Wii U version's concerned.
At first I was going to point out that a predicted fireball leads to you losing half a bar in every Street Fighter. But then I remembered... Why are you jumping at the DP range in the first place? Why was your prediction that bad/slow that you got anti-aired?
Umm what?
As a co-main, I often come up against MUs I'm not sure of the ratios for, but I look at how my opponent played and compare my much more aggressive Ness to my much more patient, wally Lucas and often go 'would I be better playing the break-in game or the wall-out game?'
TDK
I was versing the one and only
Kofu
online yesterday, at some point as Lucas I used PK Freeze as he was coming in from the air, he predicted it and held out bucket as G&W but I let go of it early, then was able to run and Usmash the end lag on bucket for the kill because PK Freeze's end lag is *that* low. We were... Surprised... >_____>
Das Koopa
's latest updated list. Idk.
17-ish to 20-ish recovery frame range territory when it comes to Guile's Sonic Boom and 30-ish for Ken's Hadouken. There is still recovery. It's low, but not 4 frames landing lag plus how many frames it takes for a character to fast fall back to the ground from a hop low previous games, especially Melee, had. Special cases, but still pretty ridiculous that projectiles were able to function like that in previous games.
My point was to say Needle Storm is good for long-range. I wasn't trying to argue if it was good, safe, whatever at mid-range.
Because they're different moves tuned for different things? Why do you think Ike doesn't use his Fair like Marth? Why do you think Fox doesn't use his Up Smash for landing traps like Falco? Different moves do different things and it's fine for them to be worst at one or several things if they're good at other things.
It makes a difference even if it's slight. 5 less recovery frames is still 5 less recovery frames.
Except it's a different move. Is one a better force approach tool and neutral tool, perhaps, but you were, from what I'm getting, arguing about Needle Storm, arguing about a projectile as a force approach tool and neutral tool. I'm just limiting that discussion to just projectiles because the way I look at it, Needle Storm as a projectile is a fine approach and neutral tool.
Yeah, characters who rely on very specific setups should have multimodal kill-% distributions, whereas those who are more consistent (Diddy) or flexible (Mewtwo) should be closer to normal. I too really like this idea. If you do go through it, I'd limit it to matches in bracket as pools will include stats from low-level players and skew the distributions away from "top level" play.
Might add more later but since I'm about to go to bed I'll just say this. During our matches I was thinking about what makes Ness a high/top tier threat. It honestly comes down to his absurd damage output and attack output. People complain about Cloud for his damage/autocancels/safety? Ness has most of those things as well. Every aerial except DAir is great (RIP Brawl DAir). I'm a little rusty on the details but I know that NAir is quick enough to allow another action out of a short hop after using the move and I believe at least one more of his aerials can do the same. His hitboxes are also disproportionately large for his size. They're obviously not as big as Cloud's, but they're quite meaty anyway. His ground game is decent and he's often capable of waiting there until he can trap the opponent and get them into the air. He even has a somewhat exploitable recovery like Cloud! And, while he lacks Cloud's absurd mobility, he trades that for a far scarier grab game.As a co-main, I often come up against MUs I'm not sure of the ratios for, but I look at how my opponent played and compare my much more aggressive Ness to my much more patient, wally Lucas and often go 'would I be better playing the break-in game or the wall-out game?'
It's nice to switch to either character and know I can do certain things. If I switch to Lucas, I get excited at big combos and strings and PK Hoohah, if I'm switching to Ness, I get excited about the wonderful Uair and Bthrow and... PK Flash??? Whoops, that wasn't meant to go in there. *awkward*
That reminds me, Ness vs G&W.
So now with a little bit more experience from my own side, I don't think G&W's neutral dominates Ness particularly hard in this MU. Bair is unsafe (I think even spaced we can Ftilt after the final hit), Fair is unsafe, pancakes are nice but also unsafe, same goes for DA. They're all respectable options of course, but I feel Ness has the frame data to beat G&W out if he wants to take it to the air and the power to get G&W to Uair / Bthrow kill percents VERY early. It's also important to keep in mind that both these moves kill, because usually if the opponent is trying to avoid 1, they're setting themselves up for the other. Anyway, in our matches gimping rarely occurred, and I think G&W gimping Ness is viable but requires a lot of thought on G&W's part and often a bad use of AD / DJ from Ness. I feel that if Ness puts himself in a serious position to be gimped then G&W was probably the better player anyway for being able to put him in that position and capitalise on it. Ironically I found myself dying offstage as Lucas far more than I did Ness.
G&W does have a fantastic juggling capability against Ness, who naturally hates being juggled. The ability to just beat out landing aerials with Usmash invincibility hurts my brain, but is especially effective against Ness who pretty much needs to fake out G&W then find his landing tbh or reset to the ledge which is eh.
But I don't see this MU in G&W's favour when the damage Ness needs to make up is so relatively small in regards to the neutral reads he has to make. A single read at low percents and G&W is at 30%, another and he's at 50, a few more and he's ready to die. Ness needs a lot more hitting from G&W's side and Usmash, while killing very early, can be respected better than Ness' array of kill options. So many times Ness can get hit by Bair over and over because he's trying to avoid other, more serious options, then Ness comes back and kills G&W at 75% because lolrage.
G&W is one of the better low-tier picks against Ness, but I have yet to see him be a serious tournament-level threat against him for the reasons I have outlined. The reasons I believe Ness to be high tier is because of his ridiculous damage output, the fact that things lead into themselves for more damage, like Uair at 0% true comboes into grab, and at mid percents Uair TCs into itself and Bair, and all of these aerials doing near Ryu-level damage means Ness will always remain relevant even if his design is somewhat volatile. Obviously Bthrow and Uair/Bair killing are big too and stuff like Dsmash at the ledge makes Ness one of the better 2-framers around. And if you want to talk about results, I agree Ness has dropped lately but he's still sitting at #15 on
If Kofu has anything to add he's welcome to chuck it in here.
I feel the results might be skewed because of Sheik's good gimping capabilities on low-mid tiers especially.