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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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JustSomeScrub

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Cloud with limit can Finishing Touch or Cross-Slash.
Diddy can down tilt to up smash.
Rosalina and Luma have Up air and Up Smash, both of which are fast and kill under or around 100.
Mario has up smash.
Sheik has Up air, Bouncing Fish, or Vanish.
Fox has Up air or Up smash.

Need I continue?
None of those options kill particularly early and rely on no platforms being in the way (except for the up airs which are not going to kill that early, especially with Sheik and that's assuming you are fast enough to get them off, way harder than it sounds).

I'll give you Cloud when he has limit charged. And Wario when he has waft. Maybe Sheik with tippered up Smash if he lands on a platform (not sure if this can be done with any platform, probably height dependant).

Other than those I can't see too many characters with meaningful punishes when platforms are involved. And notice how situational even these 3 examples are.

Virtually every other post in this thread, Anther's ladder, the smash 4 thread on shoryuken.com and GameFAQs threads all talk about how crazy Ryu is.

This is not month one of his release.

Everyone knows he is a monster at this point.
Everyone except Nintendo apparently.

They nerfed so many other polarizing options in this game (Sheik's fairs, Diddy's uairs, ZSS's up B, Luma's respawn time etc.) so they surprisingly know quite a bit about what options are very strong in competitive play.

And yet Ryu is untouched. I wonder if the justification is that Ryu has a technical barrier relative to most of the cast. That would be a poor way to balance something.
 

Shady Shaymin

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Being slow as piss really hurts Ryu. Having bad mobility stats is actually a real con that hinders your viability, unlike some supposed flaws in this game (subs @ :4cloud:)
 

TDK

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None of those options kill particularly early and rely on no platforms being in the way (except for the up airs which are not going to kill that early, especially with Sheik and that's assuming you are fast enough to get them off, way harder than it sounds).
Finishing touch Kills at 60-65%. That's earlier than most Final Smashes in the game.
 
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Trifroze

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In essence this thread is a general hub for talking about the mechanics and results of all characters in this game. There are people who have never been to a single tournament, people who attend and do well or bad, people who live around strong scenes or weak scenes, and even a few top level players occasionally. And of course no matter who you are or what your experience and knowledge is, you have to make your opinion known whether you're asked or not.

Whenever there's something obvious to be said about an event related to competitive Smash 4 or a comment inside this topic, the one who says it first is granted a billion likes because "UUUOOOO I WAS THINKING THE EXACT SAME THING WELL SAID BROTHER", although no doubt just about everyone is more or less guilty of this.

Things are often compared in a vacuum without an understanding of the character as an entirety because you didn't want to think about it that way, let alone had any experience actually playing said character. Sometimes this is done with an idea of high level concepts and sometimes not, sometimes with understanding of how reaction times actually work and how they certainly don't (although props to many facets lately trying to change this for the better), sometimes you've taken the time to go through a bunch of resources such as videos and sometimes you haven't, and so on.

Words OP, broken and nerf need to be mentioned in every YouTube video because nice meme and youtube money, results are judged by forgetting what happened a week earlier and without any thought of what's probably going to happen a week from then, and more than anything, matchup charts always warrant attention and discussion.

Unfortunately Smash has a bunch of variables when it comes to interactions between characters, and the misinformation extends to commentary as well which is often forwarded to thousands of people making things worse: a move with weight based knockback doesn't connect properly and the reasoning is "the opponent was at too high of a percentage" or a multi-hit attack whiffs because it was spaced improperly "SDI of the gods". If you're not certain about something, don't pretend to be. TKbreezy made a great comment once, saying that whenever in commentary there's a situation he's unaware about he goes and finds out about it. Most don't do this though.

If you look at all the bad tendencies, you might even want to say **** this community out loud.

Or you might try to make things better and ignore all those things and the people who argue by strawmanning or by continuously proving that they don't know anything about the fundamental concepts within the contexts they're discussing, and instead try to focus on providing constructive content when there's room for it. I've had my share of obvious comments out of boredom, ones that didn't necessarily need to be said, but most of the time I try to be constructive by either bringing up something important that wasn't said, or by playing devil's advocate whenever it's reasonable. There's no point making a post where you say the exact thing that was just said by 25 other people, just in different words, let alone just going "Yes mate! I completely agree with this! Word!". It's unrealistic to have this topic be anything but a mess, but within that spectrum of messiness, it's always realistic to make it less of a one.
 
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JustSomeScrub

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Finishing touch Kills at 60-65%. That's earlier than most Final Smashes in the game.
I said excluding Cloud. I agree Cloud is one of the few characters that can punish it well, platforms being present or not. Though even then it's when he has limit charged.
 

FallofBrawl

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How to best limit charged Cloud:

1. Don't jump

2. Try to avoid running too much due to skids and stick with mostly short dashes.

3. Don't jump

4. Shield grabbing/quick OoS options is your best friend

5. When LCS hits your shield, stay calm and either buffer roll/spotdodge -> shield to punish accordingly

6. IF you forget to do any of rule 5 during LCS, let Cloud go, it's better to reset to neutral than having some stray Cloud move put you in the disadvantage because you were baited.
 

Empire~

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How to best limit charged Cloud:

1. Don't jump

2. Try to avoid running too much due to skids and stick with mostly short dashes.

3. Don't jump

4. Shield grabbing/quick OoS options is your best friend

5. When LCS hits your shield, stay calm and either buffer roll/spotdodge -> shield to punish accordingly

6. IF you forget to do any of rule 5 during LCS, let Cloud go, it's better to reset to neutral than having some stray Cloud move put you in the disadvantage because you were baited.
If you're going to list ways to beat cloud can you please give reasoning as to why - eg #s 1 and 2. #2 doesn't really apply anyway as messing up movement is simply down to technical errors of the player. It's not really a strategy so much as a piece of advice to players who might mess up dash dancing or something like that. Regarding #4, shieldgrabbing cloud is not that simple as most of his moves (properly spaced) are difficult to shieldgrab - bair, crossup upair, ftilt, dtilt, dair, etc. Anyway, if your solution is to shield a lot, as you suggest, there is a reasonable chance the cloud will recognize this and start grabbing you.
 
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FallofBrawl

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As a Cloud, whenever I see my opponents jump, I will always either catch their landing with LCS or catch their approach with LCS, it's too hard to airdodge on reaction and too easy for Cloud to capitalize on. (It also being invincible + fat hitbox makes it hard to do any aerial to land against him, it's better to stay grounded IMO)

Shielding may be bad but given Clouds not great grab range and it being a really good answer against pretty much all of his Limit broken moves, and of course Cloud is going to recognize that, that's why I also said OoS options, mix it up.

#2 is more for characters with bad skids.

Also don't be projectile happy when you're at high % vs LC Cloud, he can easily LBB on reaction, catches your endlag, and almost always causes a favourable trade (unless the projectile is something physical like bombs, those are okay.)
 
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HoSmash4

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Ryu probably hasn't been touched because 1. He has limitations 2. Still minimal results
 

outfoxd

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Random topic but it struck my fancy after going on kuroganehammer (may be misinterpreting data). Looking at the last hit of Fsmash (the hard hit) the thing has a more base kb and growth than a Bowser fsmash. Obviously it's a pain to land, but I'm wondering if players need to just try to land it as much as possible considering its power.

I'm wondering if there's some things in frame data for other characters that may speak to future directions to take a given gameplan.
 

Yikarur

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Damage is an important factor in the knockback formular so whenever a move has insane base knockback and knockback growth values you should look at the damage the move is doing first.
 

Empire~

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As a Cloud, whenever I see my opponents jump, I will always either catch their landing with LCS or catch their approach with LCS, it's too hard to airdodge on reaction and too easy for Cloud to capitalize on. (It also being invincible + fat hitbox makes it hard to do any aerial to land against him, it's better to stay grounded IMO)

Shielding may be bad but given Clouds not great grab range and it being a really good answer against pretty much all of his Limit broken moves, and of course Cloud is going to recognize that, that's why I also said OoS options, mix it up.

#2 is more for characters with bad skids.

Also don't be projectile happy when you're at high % vs LC Cloud, he can easily LBB on reaction, catches your endlag, and almost always causes a favourable trade (unless the projectile is something physical like bombs, those are okay.)
Thanks for explaining!

While it all seems like great advice and theory, I wonder if there might be room for a distinction between characters that commit more to their sh or fh than others (eg zelda vs sheik) due to factors such as fall speed, air speeds, and aerial options.
 

Hippieslayer

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How to best limit charged Cloud:

1. Don't jump

2. Try to avoid running too much due to skids and stick with mostly short dashes.

3. Don't jump

4. Shield grabbing/quick OoS options is your best friend

5. When LCS hits your shield, stay calm and either buffer roll/spotdodge -> shield to punish accordingly

6. IF you forget to do any of rule 5 during LCS, let Cloud go, it's better to reset to neutral than having some stray Cloud move put you in the disadvantage because you were baited.
If you do this you will just get worn down and killed by a normal unless the Cloud player tunnel visions. Cloud with limit has enough mobility to deal with what you are suggesting. He might not land limit but he will land lots of grabs and some normals and eventually a bair or uair will kill you.

You cant just shield everything either. Clouds attacks wear shields down. Youre gonna need to move around and avoid him that way to let it recharge. It is awkward fighting LB Cloud no matter how you look at it.

Also Ally clearly at least second best player.
 
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Jamurai

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There are quite a few things I'm thankful for with regards to nerfs (since Wii U release).

Definitely necessary for the sake of game balance:

:4diddy: (Uair + stuff)
:4sheik: (a lot of things)
:4bayonetta2: (...yeah)
:4cloud: (Finishing Touch + stuff)
:4sonic: (Bthrow)

Probably necessary as well:

:4luigi: (disgusting grab reward)
:4metaknight: (Uair combos)
:4gaw::4villager::4ness::4lucas::4miigun: (abusive doubles tactics)
:4corrin: (Counter Surge)
:4peach: (Umeki Rainbow)

I thought the only things which stood in the way of a well-balanced game were pre-patch Sheik and Bayo, and now they're gone there's nothing about this game which makes me uncomfortable from a game balance perspective at all. Gimme that sweet metagame development.

Just caught up on the last umpteen pages while doing a long menial task at work, and man was half of it utter drivel. But that's the CCI for ya! slaps thigh
 

Amadeus9

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There are quite a few things I'm thankful for with regards to nerfs (since Wii U release).

Definitely necessary for the sake of game balance:

:4diddy: (Uair + stuff)
:4sheik: (a lot of things)
:4bayonetta2: (...yeah)
:4cloud: (Finishing Touch + stuff)
:4sonic: (Bthrow)

Probably necessary as well:

:4luigi: (disgusting grab reward)
:4metaknight: (Uair combos)
:4gaw::4villager::4ness::4lucas::4miigun: (abusive doubles tactics)
:4corrin: (Counter Surge)
:4peach: (Umeki Rainbow)

I thought the only things which stood in the way of a well-balanced game were pre-patch Sheik and Bayo, and now they're gone there's nothing about this game which makes me uncomfortable from a game balance perspective at all. Gimme that sweet metagame development.

Just caught up on the last umpteen pages while doing a long menial task at work, and man was half of it utter drivel. But that's the CCI for ya! slaps thigh
I'm not going to lie, I would go back to 1.1.4 if I could. Just saying. So many characters felt so much more satisfying to play. And I played like, all of them. The ones that got nerfed that is.
 

HoSmash4

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I'm not going to lie, I would go back to 1.1.4 if I could. Just saying. So many characters felt so much more satisfying to play. And I played like, all of them. The ones that got nerfed that is.
Basically the power level got lowered.
 

Strong-Arm

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At this point just buff Low tiers and mid tiers imo. I dont think any of the top/high tiers need anymore or any nerfs at all
 

Illuminose

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Also Ally clearly at least second best player.
I don't agree at all. The thing with Ally is that he still relies on certain brackets to do well. He has to avoid Dabuz, he has to avoid Abadango, and he has to avoid Nairo which isn't especially realistic at major tournaments unless they get upset. The only top 10 player he would actually be favored over is ZeRo, which is strange to think but given ZeRo's apparent Mario problem (between Ally and ANTi) makes sense. His last encounter with Void results in not even taking a game, Mr. R is a toss up, Larry is a toss up. The upcoming summer tournaments will be telling, but I feel as if the larger events will be more difficult for Ally to take as he has to avoid these player vs player matchups that are bound to happen. Ally winning 2 tournaments + 2nd at Pound doesn't make him the second best player in the world, it just shows that he can perform to that level which isn't mutually exclusive to him...that's about all I have to say.
 

Strong-Arm

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So in terms of bringing up the low/mid tiers who do you believe to need buffs the most? And what would you change to make said character more viable?
 

Djent

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IIRC Ally is still positive against Larry, and at least has a set win or two against Nairo. Him winning another large tournament is possible, but he does have to work on a few matchups. Fortunately for him, he's currently 4th seed at CEO (based on a now-deleted Juddy bracket). That means he gets ZeRo in semis (man, can you imagine someone rejoicing at that a few months ago?) and will likely only have to beat one of Nairo or Dabuz of he can stay in winners. Of those two, I think Nairo has a better chance of losing to weird stuff, which does hurt his chances a bit, since Ally has yet to beat Dabuz.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Honestly the only characters I can see getting buffs are Link, Charizard, Ganondorf, and maybe Roy
I can only dream of a Puff buff

Other than that the game is pretty much fine as it is, extremely balanced for how big the roster is
 

|RK|

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Speaking of Cloud, he claims another soul.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sopop6

RIP Raziek's Robin.
I do think Cloud will become an issue at some point. Not begging for nerfs or anything, but still.

The last time I mentioned this, someone mentioned that he's perfect for mid tier mains. But in a counterpick meta, how healthy is it if every CP is Cloud?
 

teddystalin

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I don't agree at all. The thing with Ally is that he still relies on certain brackets to do well. He has to avoid Dabuz, he has to avoid Abadango, and he has to avoid Nairo which isn't especially realistic at major tournaments unless they get upset. The only top 10 player he would actually be favored over is ZeRo, which is strange to think but given ZeRo's apparent Mario problem (between Ally and ANTi) makes sense. His last encounter with Void results in not even taking a game, Mr. R is a toss up, Larry is a toss up. The upcoming summer tournaments will be telling, but I feel as if the larger events will be more difficult for Ally to take as he has to avoid these player vs player matchups that are bound to happen. Ally winning 2 tournaments + 2nd at Pound doesn't make him the second best player in the world, it just shows that he can perform to that level which isn't mutually exclusive to him...that's about all I have to say.
I agree with the overall point of Ally not being second best, but to play devil's advocate:

-Ally won his last set against VoiD 3-1 at Momocon and still has an overall positive record against him.

-With the exception of his loss to Mr. R at EVO, Ally has only ever lost to Larry and Mr. R at smaller regional events, never at a major, where they've been unable to even force game 5s.

-After constant losses to Nairo for over a year, Ally has been breaking through recently, with a set win and a close 5 game set in the last couple of months. Given Nairo's recent shakiness, this is a real toss-up.

The only player who'd stop Ally in his tracks nowadays is Dabuz. He's proven he can beat most everyone else (with the exception of top Japanese players - his record against them is pretty lousy.)
 

PK Gaming

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I'm not going to lie, I would go back to 1.1.4 if I could. Just saying. So many characters felt so much more satisfying to play. And I played like, all of them. The ones that got nerfed that is.
But at the same time, so many characters felt super unsatisfying to play due to how dominant the top tiers were. Like, the character diversity we're experiencing is largely due to 1.15 and that's absolutely a good thing in my eyes. If anything, we're seeing players push Sheik and co to new heights now that they don't have a convenient crutch to fall back on.
 
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Strong-Arm

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Id personally be fine with a Cloud nerf, but at the same time several low/mid tiers could use some buffs. But if this is indeed the last patch then Id say smash 4 is a pretty comfortable game to be left with
 

Mr. Johan

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I do think Cloud will become an issue at some point. Not begging for nerfs or anything, but still.

The last time I mentioned this, someone mentioned that he's perfect for mid tier mains. But in a counterpick meta, how healthy is it if every CP is Cloud?
As healthy as a diet of salty chips and bacon three times a day.

People only think they like the idea of a counterpick meta. But when Cloud's the CP everyone goes for, it's still homogenization.

Don't forget, everyone had an MK pocket in the Brawl meta for rough matchups. But that quickly turned from "I use MK for specific MUs" to "I can't believe I used this other character before."

The same issue is prone to happen here. Hell, it's already started in mid-level meta.
 
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PK Gaming

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As healthy as a diet of salty chips and bacon three times a day.

People only think they like the idea of a counterpick meta. But when Cloud's the CP everyone goes for, it's still homogenization.

Don't forget, everyone had an MK pocket in the Brawl meta for rough matchups. But that quickly turned from "I use MK for specific MUs" to "I can't believe I used this other character before."

The same issue is prone to happen here. Hell, it's already started in mid-level meta.
Pocket Cloud isn't even remotely comparable to Pocket MK considering Brawl MK > Everyone was true while Cloud > Everyone is clearly false.

We've had Cloud for 5+ months at this point and we haven't reached a point where Cloud is overwhelmingly used as a CP in the metagame. If anything, we've gone past the point where players try to bust out their fraudulent Cloud for deseperate wins.
 

Nu~

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Pocket Cloud isn't even remotely comparable to Pocket MK considering Brawl MK > Everyone was true while Cloud > Everyone is clearly false.

We've had Cloud for 5+ months at this point and we haven't reached a point where Cloud is overwhelmingly used as a CP in the metagame. If anything, we've gone past the point where players try to bust out their fraudulent Cloud for deseperate wins.
Well who does cloud actually lose to?
 

Mr. Johan

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1) Cloud > nearly everyone, so the same principle applies. The only one Clouds think they readily lose to is Sheik, who literally has 1 year more meta development than Cloud does and so has a head start.

It took Brawl 4 years for people to finally accept that MK beats everyone convincingly. There's no guarantee that Cloud won't be the same with the same grace period.

2) 3 of those 5 months we had Cloud, we also had Bayonetta, who was immediately more rewarding. Once Bayonetta got the axe, the Cloud meta picked up steam again.
 
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PK Gaming

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1) Cloud > nearly everyone, so the same principle applies. The only one Clouds think they readily lose to is Sheik, who literally has 1 year more meta development than Cloud does and so has a head start.

It took Brawl 4 years for people to finally accept that MK beats everyone convincingly. There's no guarantee that Cloud won't be the same with the same grace period.

2) 3 of those 5 months we had Cloud, we also had Bayonetta, who was immediately more rewarding. Once Bayonetta got the axe, the Cloud meta picked up steam again.
1) Top tiers in general > nearly everyone. This isn't unique to Cloud.

2) Bayonetta, a character who didn't even dominate the tournament scene, didn't slow Cloud's metagame progression at all.

Most players worth their salt have already adapted to Cloud at this point. It's pointless to bring up what happened in Brawl's metagame when the scene was significantly smaller / players were less knowledgeable.

Well who does cloud actually lose to?
Possibly Diddy Kong. But the most important thing to note is that he goes even with a bunch of characters and doesn't completely dunk on the characters directly below him.
 
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Baby_Sneak

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As healthy as a diet of salty chips and bacon three times a day.

People only think they like the idea of a counterpick meta. But when Cloud's the CP everyone goes for, it's still homogenization.

Don't forget, everyone had an MK pocket in the Brawl meta for rough matchups. But that quickly turned from "I use MK for specific MUs" to "I can't believe I used this other character before."

The same issue is prone to happen here. Hell, it's already started in mid-level meta.
Is cloud far beyond his friends in top tier land? No, he isn't. We're fine.

Oh this:
But at the same time, so many characters felt super unsatisfying to play due to how dominant the top tiers were. Like, the character diversity we're experiencing is largely due to 1.15 and that's absolutely a good thing in my eyes. If anything, we're seeing players push Sheik and co to new heights now that they don't have a convenient crutch to fall back on.
Like, imo, strong top tiers and high tiers and able mid tiers >>>>> what we're trying to achieve. Better to make everyone powerful than to just keep nerfing whoever is on top and neglect the weak characters to make balance.
 
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Djent

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:4cloud2: loses to Sheik and ZSS, and goes evenish with Diddy, Mewtwo, and possibly other swordies. He covers a lot of matchups but there's little chance he'll ever be the best counterpicking option in every scenario.
 

Trifroze

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The problem with Cloud is how easy it is to switch to him and do well. It's sad and hilarious at the same time how time and time again you play against someone who mains some other top/high tier than Cloud, then they switch to Cloud and perform noticeably better.

Then you realize that you probably would too: best juggle move in the game, one of the best anti juggle moves in the game, huge disjointed hitboxes with above average damage and knockback, and a button that forces approaches and gives you the best mobility in the game. Cloud is as good as and possibly better than the rest of top tiers but requires much less effort (which is not some arbitrary stat when you're in a tournament fighting against your own mental state). There's too much incentive to play him for anyone not genuinely interested in another character.

What comes to the whole "game full of weaklings" argument, low tiers are actually on average way more interesting to play than top tiers because they lack the ridiculous tools that end up being their best option in 90% of situations. You have to utilize their entire moveset more than you do with top tiers. It's way more interesting than feeling some kind of oomph for hitting each other with the same overpowered move or two over and over.
 

Baby_Sneak

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What comes to the whole "game full of weaklings" argument, low tiers are actually on average way more interesting to play than top tiers because they lack the ridiculous tools that end up being their best option in 90% of situations. You have to utilize their entire moveset more than you do with top tiers. It's way more interesting than feeling some kind of oomph for hitting each other with the same overpowered move or two over and over.
not at all


Seeing low tiers players heavily limited because of their character is sad. Forget the whole "they use their entire moveset" argument because it ignores history. Melee fox used to be "Uthrow Uair the character" and now you see him use every facet of his gameplay and you can see even brawl MK go from tornado spammer to shuttle loop, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, Bair, Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, tornado, Drill rush, Shuttle loop canceling, Fsmash, and Dsmash MK (just listed his entire moveset).

You guys keep forgetting competition fuels the motivation to evolve and when these low tier characters use their entire moveset THIS early on, once competition evolves (like how it is now with ally becoming stronger and trela), you'll really see just how flipping bad and limiting these characters are. Raziek just left robin to the side for cloud because of this and you guys considered robin fine. I just totaled to dunnobro and he said raito, Brood, and yusan gets inconsistently good results because DHD is a inconsistent character and you guys considering him fine from a few results. this is why I suggest we make every character strong, not leave characters who need buffs to the side and keep shooting down the best characters until they get down to the lower levels.
 
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