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From what I know a lot of players consider the Diddy/Pika MU even, they both have a little bit of trouble taking the stock despite their amazing neutral and combo games, i would give the edge to Pika in edeguarding and Diddy in kill power
Counterplay is what's stopping Melee Fox from taking 1st at every national, just saying
is interesting as a heavy quasi-sword character, and like most swords in this game kinda suffers against rushdown.I disagree with your last statement.
Buffing the character is dangerous though IMO because the character could quickly become a tad bit overwhelming to play against.
Big D is just that good in general tbh. He and KingJames make the character immensely exciting to watch.ESAM probably thinks DDD v. Pika isn't that bad because Big D almost beat him (game 3, last stock last hit) at Paragon last year.
But keep in mind that Big D plays Captain L all the time, so he knew the MU far better than Esam. Where as Esam doesn't live near notable DDDs as far as I know.
I'm more inclined to side with Big D's thoughts because he has more experience with the MU at a high level than probably anyone else on the planet
buffing any character can potentially make them overwhelming to play against
Buffing the character is dangerous though IMO because the character could quickly become a tad bit overwhelming to play against.
Diddy vs superheavies is actually pretty strange from what I've seen. A lot of the things Diddy kills with kind of barely kill most normal characters (mostly speaking about up smash). Superheavies live so much longer; Diddy can't really kill them effectively unless he lands an fsmash.
. Anyways, let's get on with this.
Come on, does Lucas rep needs to die even further?
I wouldn't count out Lucas just yet, especially with Mekos finally getting deep into competitive Smash 4. Dude's a great player, I'm very sure he'll grow to be a large force in Lucas' meta like he was back in Brawl.
sedrf
is right too. Taiheita is getting legit results in Japan.
D3's Fair and Dair right now are horribly undertuned moves that could receive substantial buffs without being OP. He could also use Utilt being made into a solid kill option. None of these would make him broken or even particularly good.
Dedede's interesting. For every top/high he does good against, there's another that teabags him and forces him to gargle. Bayo is hilariously bad while Cloud, Mario, and Villager are pretty rough in my experience. Dedede also has weird sucky matchups you wouldn't expect like Samus and Megaman and I'd personally make a case for Wii Fit and Corrin being bad too. Dedede has an odd niche against light characters that struggle to kill and other heavyweights. His biggest crutch is definitely decently mobility characters with good aerials, range, and sturdy projectiles.
Up smash is also pretty terrible. Lackluster knockback, notable cooldown and the hitbox doesn't match the animation which makes it commonly miss at close range.
Luigi's nerfs are only stupid if you're of the mindset that the devs are trying to make everyone top tier. Fact is for the most part they don't care who is the best character, in Smash what matters to them is that they fit the depictions of the characters from their source material (and before you raise your pitchforks Ganondorf players, he's always been a real slow mover with power hits), and this time fixing any overwhelming strengths or (unintended) glaring weaknesses.Man, were we crucifying Luigi again? Then let me be his defense or whatever so I can try to patch a few things up. Feel free to burn me to the stake as well if I say something wrong. Also, I apologize in advance for the messy paragraphs. I can't write well on a phone. Especially when I'm this excited about the subject
I think I should first bring up that results-wise Luigi is similar to R.O.B, at least that's the case if we look at the results from 2016. They both do well pretty consistently at most levels of play. They just haven't gotten a huge breakthrough result. The thing is: Luigi seems to have a better top tier spread (at least, I've heard that R.O.B has trouble with it's Cloud, Diddy and Bayo MUs. And while ZSS is probably much better than before since ZSS nerfs were a thing, I can't see that MU suddenly becoming a winning MU. Please correct me if I'm mistaken in any of those MU's). Yet some of us seem to be nominating R.O.B for top 20 while calling Luigi a 'disappointment'. I can say that some of the losing MUs Luigi has are either not actually losing or not as bad as theory would show, including top tiers like Sheik and Rosa. For instance: During the week of Pound, there were two tournies where Luigi placed second in. J. Miller beat one of the best Samuses in Europe (forgot the name, sadly. I think it started with a J). And ConCon beat Falln's Rosa. Those are two MUs that Luigi supposedly loses decisively in. Though, in practice, Samus (if played optimally) isn't even a bad MU and Rosa, a character that's said to go 7-3 against Luigi, is still a losing MU...but not looking any worse than a 6-4 with a few results to show it (ConCon's recent win and Boss' 2-0 against a Rosa main called Frozen...though I'm not convinced that Frozen is a great Rosa main). Also, I think that I should explain that I personally get Toon Link practice every day with my brother. You know, another character that's said to cleanly beat Luigi. And while we're definitely not top players, we both agree that the Toon Link vs Luigi MU is very stage dependent (for instance, Luigi does well on battlefield, and Tink does well on FD). And that has to count for something, right? I mean, perhaps it doesn't, and I'll admit, Luigi in theory is a piece of **** character. But when he still has such a limited playerbase continuing to get solid results (at least top 16 at regionals, though J. Miller has had his fair share of top 3 placings, and we had a Luigi main that I still don't recognize named James who got top 32 at Pound...the same placing where iStudying got if memory serves) in practice Luigi doesn't turn out to be such a disappointment. Lack of results definitely isn't a reason why Luigi is bad. And his ****ty theory definitely isn't hampering some of the top Luigi mains if the can still get notable placings. In fact, I just gave to examples that undermine some of the theory that gets brought up all the time. I respect that people have their opinions on other characters, but I'd implore to look at Luigi's decent results and how they're still generally better than the rest of the mid tier gang that he's grouped with (Peach, Wario, Olimar, etc.).
I want to adress one specific point that gets hammered all the time: and that's the fact that Luigi has trouble with his approach. Well first...umm yeah, I can agree with that. But it's not like it's so huge that it makes him instantly 'disappointing'. His approach isn't DDD/Ganon/Kirby levels of ****. He has decent ground mobility (with a nice and slippery foxtrot), a good burst mobility option in the form of cyclone, and has fireballs. His ground speed is actually usable and his walk as good acceleration, allowing a good option for perfect shielding projectiles while constantly moving forward. His fireballs command space and are very spammable at mid range and can actually force some sort of approach if your if your opponent doesn't have a (good) projectile to ease off the pressure (looking at Ryu, Falcon, Marth and Ike as good examples). His cyclone is around the speed of Toon Link's dash and can be used to catch rolls, spot dodges, and some characters trying to run away if their dashes are too slow. It's also able to be used from the air to cut right through some projectiles and hit the opponent (for example: it's good for punishing Tink's boomerang and arrows if used too close). And yeah, I'll admit that Cyclone has quite a bit of end lag. But when people like ConCon have shown how to use it safely in creative ways, it shows that you can mitigate the end lag to the point where it's hard to punish.
Luigi's disadvantage state is also underrated in his thread. Nair, while not actually hitting a lot of the time, makes people respect Luigi and they always need to be aware that Luigi has a frame 3 Nair that can kill/set up for combos of his own. So it's more of a mental aspect. Retreating cyclone to offstage is a very unique way of getting away from danger. Using retreating cyclone but staying onstage is certainly still usable, but is more easily punished if the opponent doesn't stupidly drop their shield. B reverse fireball is also a good way to swing momentum and hopefully get away from the opponent while firing a fireball to maybe protect them from incoming harm (I want to test this out more, I admittedly don't use this enough. So I don't know if I'm over/underselling this technique. But it's certainly there. Other than that, you should also respect a Luigi's recovery if he's good at mixing up his recovery and can perform a Jumpless Cyclone. Luigi's individual recovery tools are linear, but have a lot of mix up potential and Jumpless cyclone can suddenly put you into the bad position offstage instead of Luigi (whether you're sent down for the gimp or sent up for the juggle situation). Luigi has a problem against disjointed edgeguarding, but he can also recover deeper than every character with a good edgeguarding game + a disjoint except for DDD, MK and possibly limit Cloud. So he can try to stall put a poorly timed recovery if he plays his cards right, and has access to a decent air dodge if it comes to that.
I won't touch up on Luigi's advantage because I think we all know that it's quite good, so I'll end it here (plus, my hand is going numb from typing this long, aren't I a wimp?). I don't mean to sound rude or condescending and I can see why some people find my main poorly designed/a bad character. But I'm just putting my opinion up with a few facts about Luigi to hopefully support my it. I honestly see Luigi around the 20th-22nd range if I'm being completely honest. And if you don't agree with me, then great. No, really, that's how we get the debates started. But feel free to respond to this in any way you feel is fit and let's have a conversation. And if I said anything blatantly untrue or a if I mentioned a few suspect statements, then call out on them so I won't make the same mistakes twice. But this is my take on Luigi as of now.
FAir got inexplicably nerfed the first patch along with DThrow but could definitely be made better again. A lot of DAirs in this game are bad, Dedede having a bad one doesn't strike me as being a huge detriment, especially when fastfalled NAir functions as a (mediocre) landing option.
Nair being unsafe on shield is literally the only thing about the move that makes it fall short. Sweetspot nair has killing potential at high percents and sour nair combos into up tilt at low percents and up air at higher percents. Definitely one of the shining moves in Dedede's toolkit if you has to ask me.
Maybe "A brawl minus situation" is the wrong way of putting it because Brawl Minus focuses on the raw fun of the movesets.
I disagree. Dedede's mobility is still one of the worst in the game and he thrives more defensive tactics and set ups than offensive ones. Like Bowser Jr, it takes a tactical genius for Dedede to be anywhere close to "overwhelming" unless you're simply unfamilar with the match up. Buffs at this point should focus on making his kill options more potent and his defensive tactics more viable.
Buffing the character is dangerous though IMO because the character could quickly become a tad bit overwhelming to play against.
That's pretty neat actually. Maybe we can finally put some arguments relating to it to rest with this.
Roadblock was poor wording on my part, nuisance is a better term for pre-patch sheik and I do agree that if sheik is playing aggressive and is constantly trading with yoshi that its no fun for sheik, I'm just happy he's being used more lol.
Except this ties into two of Dedede's biggest weakness: having the second worst landing options in the game after Bowser and having no safe close combat options aside from his shield grab. Once you do break Dedede's zone, it's hard for him to get back into it except against slow (whether in the air, on the ground, or both) characters. For example, Mario and Cloud outmaneuver Dedede and can juggle him to oblivion while characters like Megaman and Villager can outzone him until it's time to get the kill. Dedede's disadvantage state onstage is pretty bad and, because of being wheezy and diabetic, Dedede doesn't get "HA HA, THE TABLES HAVE TURNED" moments on stage except with shield breaks or early fsmash kills.
Dedede's defenses aren't very hard to break, honestly.
Multijumps and a fast falling speed help D3 out somewhat, but he definitely has a hard time landing.
I think that this isn't true. He has 5 jumps, a high fast fall speed, nair is decent but not exactly safe, spaced bair is pretty nice too. He can also use inhale I guess? Yeah his airspeed really hurts him here, but he can't be worse off than like, Little Mac.
Falling inhale isn't anywhere as good as it was in Brawl. It was a really good option back then because it could stop attacks almost as abruptly as Wario's chomp could but they largely neutered it in this game. In Brawl, you could safely do it point blank with little consequence. It went from being one of his best defensive options to just simply being okay. I will concede on Mac having worse landing options, however. Dedede's easily bottom 5 though:
if I were to reevaluate my previous position.
