Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mario766]

Do we really need to add a no-stalling clause to tournaments or can we just assume these things + Villager side-b hover at the blast zone are already banned.

 

[Jamurai]

Having a quick-glance number to denote how a matchup goes is actually quite useful. If I was talking about a character's viability or justifying their position in a tier list, it's a LOT more concise and to-the-point to say "character X only has a few -1 MUs against top tiers and has multiple +1s against these relevant characters ABC, and even a +2 against Y", rather than having to explain multiple different matchups in detail to explain how they all go and how they in turn relate to my original point about how good they are relative to other characters.

With this in mind, if everyone were to agree on this, it's important to have a standardised system (this also applies to other concepts like legal stages but that's another story). I've seen a slightly favourable matchup described as +1, 60:40, 55:45... Sol made a tier list recently where it's described as +5. Also I think Some made one too which had another notation altogether where it was just a flat number. For this reason, no one knows for sure what anyone means. Which is obviously bad and unhelpful, and defeats the point entirely.

Personally I think +1 as slightly favourable makes the most sense... 60:40 is acceptable. 55:45 doesn't exist, if an advantage is enough to have to be noted then it is 60:40 or +1 AKA slight advantage. Then +2 is significantly favourable, +3 is very favourable, and +4 is almost unloseable. While +5 (equivalent to 100:0) would then mean "impossible to lose", these obviously do not exist.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, idk how many other people agree, but I'm only interested in matchup charts from top players of their characters, so do refrain from posting loads of them as they'll clog the thread and drown any meaningful discussion.

Here is Ito's for Meta Knight (I didn't make it hence ratios rather than +/- numbers lel):

Spoiler: Ito's MU list

For the record I more or less agree entirely with him.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Different topic: Mewtwo is really good now and it's weird how people underestimate him. He only really loses to hard rushdown but otherwise he has the capabilities to take on almost every character with his strong neutral game and even stronger combo game. I saw on the matchup chart project thing recently that literally every single character board thinks they beat Mewtwo, which is hilarious as this is severely understating him even before his buffs. I did say to the creator of this chart that it is way too early and patches could change a lot and lo and behold, they have, but I digress. Don't sleep on the psycho monkey.

 

[C0rvus]

So, still wondering...

What exactly does Corrin have over the other swordsmen, Pit in particular?

Pit is still better, I know that's what you want to hear. Nobody is questioning this. It's not as if either character has been changed in the past two weeks. Corrin is a totally different character with tools that function in a different manner to Pit, or Marth, or Ike, or the Links.
In my mind, he's like Marth with a bit less general range and speed, but he has a strong projectile and better ledge coverage. I think he's got some of the best midrange zoning in the cast, with some nice kill throws to cap off stocks when needed. Unlike the Pits' you don't need to be close to the side for it to be useful, I guess.
I think the projectile is the big difference, but he's like an all-purpose mid range control character. Despite what I think, his tools are pretty open ended and everyone seems to apply them to suits their own playstyle. Pretty nifty mid tier character.

 

[Coffee™]

Only other thing as frustrating is when people still think he's bottom 10 or bottom 5, though his public perception has been thankfully improving in recent months.

Frustrating? I think its rather fun blowing up the other characters in low tier tournies with him...

Pit is still better, I know that's what you want to hear. Nobody is questioning this.

I would...i don't see what makes Pit a clearly better character.

 

[Ffamran]

Do we really need to add a no-stalling clause to tournaments or can we just assume these things + Villager side-b hover at the blast zone are already banned.

We assume things in this game should function properly even if they might be "uncontrollable" like Corrin's infinite grab could happen without any intentional mischief. No TO would let a player stall like that, but in a situation where if the opponent gets grabbed, this happens, and they want to mash out, they should feel like they can mash out, their mashing was worth the effort, instead of being at the mercy of the Corrin player. It just interferes with gameplay in all modes because Corrin's grab is not functioning properly; it's a bug that just needs to be addressed. Competitive-wise, mashing should be work to get out of grabs regardless of where or how you were grabbed and in the event that fails because of a bug, then the game's not functioning properly and interferes with the player's ability to respond to a grab. Otherwise, it's just the game failing what should be a basic and normal action. The other thing is if the momentum glitch from Corrin is patched out, then might as well patch this one out too for the sake of bug fixes.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's weight flaw has been beaten so far into the ground, no one besides Mewtwo mains can seem to analyze them right.

Everyone thinks they can body him while ignoring all the amazing things he has. It's frustrating.

Both greninja and Mewtwo have to deal with this kind of stuff; it really wears down on me. It's like you want me to fall into cardiac arrest.

 

[Mo433]

A lot of people don't want to admit that their character losses to Mewtwo simply because of how he was percieved as low tier early launch.

It's sorta similar how nobody wants their character to lose to Ganon

I've been using Mewtwo since release, and I can definetely say that Mewtwo has never been as bad as people put him. Even before his buffs, he was still a very solid character.

With the buffs he's gotten now, I can see why Abadango rates him so high.

He does struggle against rushdown playestyle, but overtime, I think Mewtwo players will find ways to make him relevant vs certain top tiers.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit is still better, I know that's what you want to hear. Nobody is questioning this. It's not as if either character has been changed in the past two weeks. Corrin is a totally different character with tools that function in a different manner to Pit, or Marth, or Ike, or the Links.

Well I don't mind hearing it but that's not what I really ment. I'm just wondering why Corrin feels like a 99% downgrade from Pit. Like, I can see the point to "bad" characters, but Corrin feels mediocre in basically every aspect. Was just hoping something was found or that somebody figured out his kit, I guess.

I would...i don't see what makes Pit a clearly better character.

Ehh... Mind explaining? Not to sound arrogant but Pit's not exactly a very well understood character. Like, I still see commentators say things like how Pit's a lightweight and other blatantly wrong things all the time.

 

[PK Gaming]

I like Larry's spirit. He has the passion and dedication to be among the best Links, although he might be wrong about this.

It's not passion, it's unmitigated delusion and it's totally unchecked.

There are much better ways of expressing your passion for a niche character. Trying to push lies as truths is not one of them.

 

[Deleted member]

Having a quick-glance number to denote how a matchup goes is actually quite useful. If I was talking about a character's viability or justifying their position in a tier list, it's a LOT more concise and to-the-point to say "character X only has a few -1 MUs against top tiers and has multiple +1s against these relevant characters ABC, and even a +2 against Y", rather than having to explain multiple different matchups in detail to explain how they all go and how they in turn relate to my original point about how good they are relative to other characters.

With this in mind, if everyone were to agree on this, it's important to have a standardised system (this also applies to other concepts like legal stages but that's another story). I've seen a slightly favourable matchup described as +1, 60:40, 55:45... Sol made a tier list recently where it's described as +5. Also I think Some made one too which had another notation altogether where it was just a flat number. For this reason, no one knows for sure what anyone means. Which is obviously bad and unhelpful, and defeats the point entirely.

Personally I think +1 as slightly favourable makes the most sense... 60:40 is acceptable. 55:45 doesn't exist, if an advantage is enough to have to be noted then it is 60:40 or +1 AKA slight advantage. Then +2 is significantly favourable, +3 is very favourable, and +4 is almost unloseable. While +5 (equivalent to 100:0) would then mean "impossible to lose", these obviously do not exist.

I can pretty much agree with all this. I don't really think numbers (+1, 0, -1 etc.) are bad for showing how bad or good an MU is, just a merely a representation of one without actually replacing the meanings or MU ratios.

 

[warionumbah2]

Btw, idk how many other people agree, but I'm only interested in matchup charts from top players of their characters

I agree with you, this should've been done in the first place.

 

[Jams.]

Different topic: Mewtwo is really good now and it's weird how people underestimate him. He only really loses to hard rushdown but otherwise he has the capabilities to take on almost every character with his strong neutral game and even stronger combo game. I saw on the matchup chart project thing recently that literally every single character board thinks they beat Mewtwo, which is hilarious as this is severely understating him even before his buffs. I did say the creator of this chart that it is way too early and patches could change a lot and lo and behold, they have, but I digress. Don't sleep on the psycho monkey.

I think the general public just tunnel visioned on his weight issue, and public perception of Mewtwo won't shift quickly unless his weight is buffed or he gets top 8 at a major. Mewtwo is also not a very common character, so I've seen many people dismiss him based on "he's light so we kill early" without a deep understanding of the character. Stigma and prejudice can be difficult to overcome; since you play MK, you can probably understand due to how long MK was underrated as a result of nerfs from Brawl.

snip

Could you please elaborate on the Mario and Greninja matchups? There is a strong Little Mac player in my region (Alphicans), and he believes both matchups are more disadvantageous for Mac than you indicated. Water gimps are fairly reliable with both characters and can consistently ruin his upb, and Mario also has comparable CQC to Mac in terms of start-up even if he is outranged, and can convert much better when he gets in.

He also thinks DDD is slightly disadvantageous and plays fairly frequently versus BigD, but I'm honestly not too sure of his justification for that matchup ratio, just that random hits from DDD can end Mac's stocks early. This MU was discussed previously already so you don't have to respond, I just wanted to provide a second opinion.

 

[Coffee™]

Ehh... Mind explaining? Not to sound arrogant but Pit's not exactly a very well understood character. Like, I still see commentators say things like how Pit's a lightweight and other blatantly wrong things all the time.

What is there to explain? I don't see anything that Pit has in particular that would warrant saying he's an undeniably better character.

Also, Pit isn't a very hard character to understand.

 

[Asdioh]

as much as I like Zero as a PLAYER, his video are not exactly a reliable source of information.
In that particoular video he claims a lot of stuff that is flat out untrue

Yes, very much this. A lot of misinformation in the Kirby video as well. It's a shame so many people will see it and believe it... the majority of them probably don't even go to tournaments though, so not too much harm done.

With this in mind, if everyone were to agree on this, it's important to have a standardised system (this also applies to other concepts like legal stages but that's another story). I've seen a slightly favourable matchup described as +1, 60:40, 55:45... Sol made a tier list recently where it's described as +5. Also I think Some made one too which had another notation altogether where it was just a flat number. For this reason, no one knows for sure what anyone means. Which is obviously bad and unhelpful, and defeats the point entirely.

Personally I think +1 as slightly favourable makes the most sense... 60:40 is acceptable. 55:45 doesn't exist, if an advantage is enough to have to be noted then it is 60:40 or +1 AKA slight advantage. Then +2 is significantly favourable, +3 is very favourable, and +4 is almost unloseable. While +5 (equivalent to 100:0) would then mean "impossible to lose", these obviously do not exist.

I agree that a standardised system would be best. I think the ratio (5:5) system works better than the +1 system because it makes more sense "at a glance." If someone with little knowledge about how ratings and competitive theory works were to look at a matchup chart, and see a bunch of plus and minuses, they would only have a vague idea of what those numbers mean. A ratio is more understandable without context, and I agree that increments of 5 (55:45, 65:35) are a bit silly, because it's not like matchup theory is ever going to be that precise.


I'm in the "Pit isn't guaranteed to be better than Corrin" camp. Corrin has some neat stuff.

 

[bc1910]

A lot of people don't want to admit that their character losses to Mewtwo simply because of how he was percieved as low tier early launch.

It's sorta similar how nobody wants their character to lose to Ganon

I've been using Mewtwo since release, and I can definetely say that Mewtwo has never been as bad as people put him. Even before his buffs, he was still a very solid character.

With the buffs he's gotten now, I can see why Abadango rates him so high.

He does struggle against rushdown playestyle, but overtime, I think Mewtwo players will find ways to make him relevant vs certain top tiers.

To be fair I have no trouble admitting that Greninja might lose to Mewtwo lol. Mewtwo should not be underestimated now. If you don't have an extremely good way to dissuade him from charging Shadow Ball, stellar advantage, or a stellar up close game, you're in serious trouble.

---------

Ito's MK spread is the best MU spread to have been posted, by far.

On a slightly separate note, once again a top player MU spread portrays Greninja positively. In this case with an even MU against the widely considered 4th best character in the game when only 10 characters are thought to go even or better.

I'm telling you guys, do not write Greninja off for top 15.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well I don't mind hearing it but that's not what I really ment. I'm just wondering why Corrin feels like a 99% downgrade from Pit. Like, I can see the point to "bad" characters, but Corrin feels mediocre in basically every aspect. Was just hoping something was found or that somebody figured out his kit, I guess.

If you still think Corrin is a 99% downgrade from Pit then your overall picture of the game is very clearly warped.

 

[Shaya]

Re MK/Pika: Small, mobile, great recovery, edge guarding tools, great read tools, non-cqc fighter unless in an advantaged position.Just because MK has the ability to kill people like a good character should, doesn't stop him from being able to achieve most things Pika could otherwise.

-

Ughh match up charts.
I don't mind them but they really are easy to be terrible, y'know?

People can really struggle to understand the game outside the realms they play in. There's a top level meta and chances are you're mid level at best.
That doesn't mean you can't have a good opinion or understanding of things, but if you're naive and can't understand EVEN AT THE MOST BASIC OF LEVELS how much better ZeRo and Nairo are compared to what you're used to (and there's probably several hundred if not thousands of players between them and you)... your frame of view on these matters can easily be not worth listening to.

In 2009 when I went to Genesis [one], I thought it would be possible I'd get top 8 (before I landed in America that is). I'd dominated tournaments locally for close to a year already. I was a theory crafting god and was a strong pillar for development in the Marth community. To top it off in terms of tournament monetary winnings I was no.1 Marth on Earth half the time while Mikehaze was the rest of the time (he maintained that for a lot longer afterwards though).
Was I no.1 Marth in the world? No. Number 2? No. This could go on for a while...
(I settled for no.1 Marth in the Southern Hemisphere )

Shock and horror, there were at least two to three tiers of skill level above me that I hadn't fully grasped.
I got around 60th at Genesis and two weeks later 17th at evo.
Since then the process of theorising and understanding has been heavily refined, noticing the smaller and smaller nuances of game play.
A 1 frame difference at top level is significant yet chances are that you're playing 5-10 frames slower on just about everything a mere "high level" player would. Mid level players have zilch chance of noticing this (playing primarily on wifi makes this significantly worse).
Many players expect basic things to go right for them all the time because they go right for them personally.

e.g.
"Forward Air is safe on shield" a Marth would say, feeling confident about their justification on a match up being good for them.
But guess what? You need to jump and you need to land. You need to be in range of them. What if they're prepared for the forward air?
Fortunately my (and all Marths) stubbornness in "forward air is safe on shield" evolved into ensuring forward air was always safe on shield, but that's what 8 frames landing lag and having an applicable auto cancel is all about, hard coded data was there to shine a light on the path at least.

Moral of the story would be that I'd rate my personal experiences very highly but not above what could at least be understood by others and argued with evidence and data.
If I couldn't provide more than just my personal experiences in any matter while being against what others thought, I would think long and hard about why that could possibly be the case and reevaluate my position.

 

[Latias]

Well I don't mind hearing it but that's not what I really ment. I'm just wondering why Corrin feels like a 99% downgrade from Pit. Like, I can see the point to "bad" characters, but Corrin feels mediocre in basically every aspect. Was just hoping something was found or that somebody figured out his kit, I guess.

He outdoes Pit in quite a few aspects, I'd say he's a better Pit.

 

[LancerStaff]

He outdoes Pit in quite a few aspects, I'd say he's a better Pit.

What is there to explain? I don't see anything that Pit has in particular that would warrant saying he's an undeniably better character.

Also, Pit isn't a very hard character to understand.

If you still think Corrin is a 99% downgrade from Pit then your overall picture of the game is very clearly warped.

Pit has better movement specs, grab game, advantage, disadvantage, recovery, offstage game, better range on CQC tools (especially jab), better projectile game in that Pit's doesn't lose to nearly every projectile...

They have similar raw damage output and frame data overall.

With Corrin, I'll have one of you explain what he has over Pit. Because frankly I don't see anything major.

 

[R3D3MON]

LancerStaff
Range? Corrin's nair is huge. Can wall out a lot of characters. Also many of his aerials are great for catching landings and juggling because of their range (fair and up air comes to mind). Ryo has shown people that there are several frame traps at the ledge that can kill many of the characters in the roster at mid-high %.

That's all I can think of atm.

 

[Latias]

Pit has better movement specs, grab game, advantage, disadvantage, recovery, offstage game, better range on CQC tools (especially jab), better projectile game in that Pit's doesn't lose to nearly every projectile...

They have similar raw damage output and frame data overall.

With Corrin, I'll have one of you explain what he has over Pit. Because frankly I don't see anything major.

Corrin has better kill options, better range overall, I'd say he has better advantage and a better combo game, and dragon lunge means he can be pretty mobile.

 

[Shaya]

Corrin has long duration arcing hitboxes.
A significantly better set of tilts.
I'm not sure how he has a better advantage, Pit has to control space and make reads to get continual follow ups. Corrin just throws out another fair or nair and it does all the work for them.
Corrin at this time is probably taking less harassment from recovering than Pit does.
Corrin's projectile is not a projectile like you are pretending it is... not a neutral tool at all (neither is ZSS paralyzer).
Side-b is a long range anti-ground kill move, set up move, and mobility tool. Nothing else like this exists in this game.

Corrin
Neutral Air Strong [- 7,-49] [-40,-41] [-33,-34]
Neutral Air Weak [- 8,-48] [-29,-40] [-22,-33]
Forward Air [- 8,-29] [-17,-20] [-19,-22]
Back Air [- 6,-33] [-21,-24] [-17,-20]
Up Air [- 8,-39] [-24,-29] [-18,-23]
Down Air [-23,-50] [-13,-29] [-20,-36]
Dair Landing [-16]

Pit
Neutral Air Final [-20,-24] [- 5] [-26]
Forward Air Final [-16,-24] [- 8,- 9] [-23,-24]
Back Air Strong [-12,-28] [-11,-13] [-20,-22]
Up Air Final [-21,-32] [-12,-13] [-21,-22]
Down Air [-17,-41] [-20,-22] [-17,-19]

Well, a generally safer landing nair than Pit's which can be fallen out of whilst requiring an AC.
As safe a forward air while being a significantly better forward air
Significantly safer up air

...

I wouldn't say Corrin is definitely better than Pit.
But you're being silly for the rest Lancer

 

[C0rvus]

No way Pit's advantage is better than Corrin's. Pit's advantaged state is his biggest weakness.

 

[R3D3MON]

Latias
To be fair, I don't think Corrin has a better combo game since Corrin does not exactly have a very reliable d-throw, unlike Pit. Corrin's d-tilt is good, but can be shield-grabbed. However Corrin excels at chaining multiple aerials while people are airborne (example would be when an opponent jumps from the ledge), and her counter can be very deadly for catching people doing aerial ladder combos, such as mario or MK.

In terms of edgeguarding, I would say Pit is definitely better since he can use his multiple jumps, super-armor side-b, arrows, and aerials to efficiently wall out characters recovering horizontally or below stage. And specifically for dark pit, he can now kill rather early offstage because of side-b's new angle and other buffs (TY Sakurai!). I think Nairo demonstrates these traits extremely well.

 

[Latias]

Latias
To be fair, I don't think Corrin has a better combo game since Corrin does not exactly have a very reliable d-throw, unlike Pit. Corrin's d-tilt is good, but can be shield-grabbed. However Corrin excels at chaining multiple aerials while people are airborne (example would be when an opponent jumps from the ledge), and her counter can be very deadly for catching people doing aerial ladder combos, such as mario or MK.

In terms of edgeguarding, I would say Pit is definitely better since he can use his multiple jumps, super-armor side-b, arrows, and aerials to efficiently wall out characters recovering horizontally or below stage. And specifically for dark pit, he can now kill rather early offstage because of side-b's new angle and other buffs (TY Sakurai!). I think Nairo demonstrates these traits extremely well.

Corrin doesn't have any throw combos, but overall he has longer and more damaging combos off of things like nair,fair,dtilt.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

How are you people making these matchup charts anyways?

I would like to make one for Charizard.


Also, I think its a tad early for people to say Corrin is better than Pit, though the frame data is interesting.

 

[Planty]

With Corrin, I'll have one of you explain what he has over Pit. Because frankly I don't see anything major.

There's lots of minor things that add up and make Corrin a different character altogether and those same things are also things that he has over Pit. I won't be listing them but I'll cover 2 big ones briefly.

First is kill potential. Pit has U-smash which is pretty decent at catching landings but otherwise is dysfunctional in many situations. He also has F-throw after a ledge getup read. His other kill moves are good, but they're not something that's all that useful in many situations.
In Corrin's case, her ability to set up 50/50 situations and landing traps, on top of being full of kill confirms off of main poking tools.

D-tilt is a very good move to get some pokes in. It also true combos into Uair kills at certain % ranges (and they're not tight % ranges either). Past that, it creates a 50/50 with Uair.
U-tilt is basically the ultimate anti-air. (Pit doesn't have anti-airs either, does he? Does pivot U-smash work?). This ultimate anti-air that gets beaten by nearly nothing sets up a 50/50 for a kill.
Fair, a great tool in neutral, sets up kill combos as early as 50%. Past the range where it'll kill confirm, it sets up another 50/50.
Nair, another great tool with a ridiculous hitbox, sets you up for non-guaranteed kills or landing traps.
DFS is good at catching landings. Close up and it kills super early. Far away and it sets up into Uair or Bair kills.
F-smash is good at catching landings.

Notice how all of these are landing traps or Uair kills? Corrin is likely the best at getting you in that sort of position and a master at capitalizing on it. If the opponent goes to the ledge, they risk an F-smash. Also 2 kill throws that start working at ~150%. They kill like 15 or 20% later than Pit's F-throw at the ledge and is more consistent in where it kills. Don't ever underrate consistency.

Second thing is platform play. Corrin's platform play is dumb. Just go to the AT thread on the Corrin boards. Really odd stuff has been found.
Pit has... U-smash landing traps and what other notable things with platforms?


There is just no way that you can even compare Corrin's advantage state to Pit's. So there you go: Corrin has a much better advantage state.

Also I do agree that Pit has a better disadvantage state, although you can't deny that being able to land with aerials and scaring people away from juggles because of counter is pretty big.

Hardly Zelda 2.0

 

[bc1910]

No way Pit's advantage is better than Corrin's. Pit's advantaged state is his biggest weakness.

Here here. Pit's neutral is stellar, but his advantage state is essentially just finding ways to transition back into his, again, stellar neutral. His low damage output does not help.

He does have some top tier landing trap options with Uair, Usmash and Nair that shouldn't be ignored. Though they only work on characters with bad/no landing mixups.

I wouldn't say Corrin is definitely better than Pit, though. It's way to early to say. Pit's frame data is better overall from what I know and it's difficult to compare the two characters because I actually think they're fundamentally quite different.

 

[MistressRemilia]

How are you people making these matchup charts anyways?

I would like to make one for Charizard.


Also, I think its a tad early for people to say Corrin is better than Pit, though the frame data is interesting.

They are done with the same tool as Tier lists, with ther tier list maker site:
https://quetzle.github.io/smash-apps/tier/

 

[Vipermoon]

The MU lists are yellow topics, which means you must participate in a green topic. And you guys know the 1 tier list per page rule? That should apply to any list (idk if it does).

I can't believe mods are allowing this

 

[Tri Knight]

@Radical Larry

Since you might already guess, i disagree with the Sheik MU but ill bite on a couple others. Cloud v. Link MU and Ike v. Link. What's your reasoning behind that? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Mr. Johan]

RE: low-tier self-esteem: If it means anything, I'm probably the only Robin who thinks Zelda has the advantage over him, albeit a small one.

I'm actually surprised that me having her down as an even MU didn't cause everyone's eyes and ears to perk up and engage the brakes on that one, lol.

 

[Jams.]

Pit has better movement specs, grab game, advantage, disadvantage, recovery, offstage game, better range on CQC tools (especially jab), better projectile game in that Pit's doesn't lose to nearly every projectile...

They have similar raw damage output and frame data overall.

With Corrin, I'll have one of you explain what he has over Pit. Because frankly I don't see anything major.

Yes, and Sheik has better movement specs, grab game, advantage, disadvantage, recovery, offstage game, and a better projectile. Does this make her a 99% upgrade over Pit? Maybe in the most general sense, but I would argue that they're different characters with different kits, and a comparison like this is arbitrary. When comparing characters in categories as general as "advantage" and "disadvantage," it's easy to make one character appear like it obsolesces another, but I think we have to look at the character's individual tools to get a comprehensive analysis.

Though they have some similarities, Corrin's tools differ enough from Pit's to give her a unique niche and style. Pit isn't a 99% upgrade over Corrin any more than Sheik is a 99% upgrade over Greninja.

 

[C0rvus]

RE: low-tier self-esteem: If it means anything, I'm probably the only Robin who thinks Zelda has the advantage over him, albeit a small one.

I'm actually surprised that me having her down as an even MU didn't cause everyone's eyes and ears to perk up and engage the brakes on that one, lol.

Zelda is literally invisible to the naked eye. Most of us just assume she's a good matchup and forget about her lol.

I'd love to hear why you think she goes even with Robin. I had never played a strong Zelda during my time with Robin.

Also for the record, I never once said Corrin is better than Pit. I think Pit is better, at least for now. I do feel that Corrin has room to develop into a threat.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

RE: low-tier self-esteem: If it means anything, I'm probably the only Robin who thinks Zelda has the advantage over him, albeit a small one.

I'm actually surprised that me having her down as an even MU didn't cause everyone's eyes and ears to perk up and engage the brakes on that one, lol.

Out of curiosity, why do you feel Zelda goes even with Robin?

Is it because of Nayru's Love nullifying Robin's camping game? One would think Levin Aerials would be enough to make it a matchup in Robin's favor.

 

[Vipermoon]

RE: low-tier self-esteem: If it means anything, I'm probably the only Robin who thinks Zelda has the advantage over him, albeit a small one.

I'm actually surprised that me having her down as an even MU didn't cause everyone's eyes and ears to perk up and engage the brakes on that one, lol.

Hey... yeah, that could work!

Sorry for the upcoming theorycraft but...

-Robin has low mobility.
-Zelda has a long lasting reflector and one of the best Dairs (and probably the only sex kick-spike Dair) in the game against a recovery without hitbox coverage.

There's no way Zelda could lose this MU.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

While Wintermelon's MU spread for Kirby was... uhm... radical, I still see many people underrate Kirby in aspects of what he can do. Obviously an at best mid tier character is still going to lose more than win (or at least even more than win) people outright saying he is a **** character for having an even/+1 with their main is outrageous. With Wintermelon's MU spread, I don't think anyone was like "you're right, this MU is probably even/losing" they more just backed up their thoughts with "KIRBY IS BAD SO WE WIN"

Instead of that, do what Asdioh stated to do with how to rate if a character wins or not. Shouting "X CHARACTER DOESNT LOSE TO KIRBY KIRBY IS TOO BAD" not only doesn't help anyone, it also spreads misinformation that nobody wants to hear.

That goes for any character also, no bias here mates.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hey... yeah, that could work!

Sorry for the upcoming theorycraft but...

-Robin has low mobility.
-Zelda has a long lasting reflector and one of the best Dairs (and probably the only sex kick-spike Dair) in the game against a recovery without hitbox coverage.

There's no way Zelda could lose this MU.

The matchup is a lot less simpler than that, lol. I mean, there are other factors to consider like Robin's explosive damage, significantly better normals and actual KO set ups. Robin's projectiles aren't even completely nullified in this matchup either. Noticeably harder to use, yes, but they're still a factor.

It was the only instance of this matchup in high level play, but it's definitely not a matchup Robin loses.

 

[Jaguar360]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel Zelda beats Robin?

Is it because of Nayru's Love nullifying Robin's camping game? One would think Levin Aerials would be enough to make it a matchup in Robin's favor.

I can weigh in on this I guess. I think they go even in a lot of respects, but Zelda can really take advantage of her better mobility (don't get to say that very often) and Naryu's in this matchup. Zelda's ground game is more solid overall with her overall ground kit being faster and having more range (particularly applies to d-tilt and Jab, plus f-smash can apply good, safe pressure on Robin), though Robin's Jab alone is amazing and evens things up in that respect. Zelda's edgeguard game also shines aganist Robin since his/her recovery lacks a front-facing hitbox.

Robin's Levin aerials, Jab and Checkmate are enough to make Zelda scared, plus his projectiles can still pressure her even with Naryu's, so Robin has some things going for him in the matchup that could make things even. I personally think that Zelda beats him though.

Zelda has like 5-6 matchups tops that she actually wins though. Most are disadvantageous and a large portion are even. I don't think that she has any -3s though except for perhaps Meta Knight, but I don't have quality experience in that matchup so eh.

For the record, I think she goes even with Kirby btw and disagree with the charts that put her as +2s for him.

 

[Goombo]

RE: low-tier self-esteem: If it means anything, I'm probably the only Robin who thinks Zelda has the advantage over him, albeit a small one.

I'm actually surprised that me having her down as an even MU didn't cause everyone's eyes and ears to perk up and engage the brakes on that one, lol.

:o

But Robin has a better projectile game, grab game, advantage, disadvantage, offstage game und kill setups.
So she must be a 99% upgrade of Zelda