Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Sheik's bair was like her best kill move in the 3DS days. The nerf was completely justified.

It was about as strong as Mario's Bair and that kills late for most characters in general.

 

[san.]

Whiffing with side B is bad. With how far it flings you you give up all your space or just fly offstage outright, and it still doesn't deal with people up close. Doubt it kills at 110% with DI...

Uncharged DFS is slow as molasses. You just shouldn't be getting hit by it.

That was the % I was killing a high level Ike, so it'll probably kill other characters even lower. Edit: Tested just now, and it is around that % at the edge or with rage, but it's more consistent around the 120-130 range at mid stage with little rage.

If you sideB and you impale the ground, you have 4 options:

• Do nothing, you eventually return to the ground
• forward kick, immediately throws out a hitbox
• backwards kick, throws out a weak hitbox in front and a stronger hitbox behind
• jump with some minor lag

Impaling them is an automatic forward attack, ~19 damage total. Sometimes you get the sweetspot from the quick lunge, and you won't impale them and instead just deal the 15 damage.

Attacks and jumping have minor lag.

This is quite good for a 4-6 frame attack without committing too much. Corrin doesn't care much about giving up space since he covers a bunch of space anyways, and can just use the pin again.

Also, you CAN impale people up close. I am arguing from experience and frame data. I am beginning to doubt you really looked into much of this..?

 

[Tizio Random]

Regarding the discussion about Corrin and Bayo vs Top Tier I can share my two cents about Rosalina.

Corrin is hard. Really. Aside from the fact the Luma dies from anything, I find myself in the position of the tip of Corrin f-smash quite often because of the spacing used with Rosa (Opponent - Luma in the middle - Rosalina). And Corrin uair challenges Rosalina aerials really well, I lost a stock at 100% off the top because Corrin's uair passed my dair with ease.

Bayonetta is quite normal but I can't say too much as I haven't played a decent one yet. Luma just shut many of her option (could disrupt combo and deals with Witch Time). Her jab is quite annoying.

 

[meleebrawler]

That was the % I was killing a high level Ike, so it'll probably kill other characters even lower.

If you sideB and you impale the ground, you have 4 options:

• Do nothing, you eventually return to the ground
• forward kick, immediately throws out a hitbox
• backwards kick, throws out a weak hitbox in front and a stronger hitbox behind
• jump with some minor lag

Impaling them is an automatic forward attack, ~19 damage total. Sometimes you get the sweetspot from the quick lunge, and you won't impale them and instead just deal the 15 damage.

Attacks and jumping have minor lag.

This is quite good for a 4-6 frame attack without committing too much. Corrin doesn't care much about giving up space since he covers a bunch of space anyways, and can just use the pin again.

Also, you CAN impale people up close. I am arguing from experience and frame data. I am beginning to doubt you really looked into much of this..?

There's always people trying to be the first to determine a new character's viability. And said opinion tends to be negative when you tend to crash and burn in your test run due to unfamiliarity.

 

[Terotrous]

Training mode is not a good portrayal of actual combos, because 1.) the CPUs don't DI; and 2.) the combo counter will still count something as a true combo even if you can airdodge out of it.

Also freshness and staleness aren't factored in.

 

[teluoborg]

They do well, but they don't win... unlike many characters below Roy. That's my point.

Many characters such as ?
And Roy players win tournaments, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Megamang]

Its funny, on the cloud being gimped video, the very next highlight is M2K's cloud pulling a ridiculous, cloud-only comeback. I still think he will be like a high level ganondorf; if you can read your opponent you can win. Only he has a functioning neutral. And a disjoint. And amazing mobility. And a way to force approaches.


Ive really wanted a character that benefits a lot from PP, to set myself apart from those who never learned it, and cloud definitely gets lot of cool plays with his. PP utilts extend his juggle Void style. PP back into dtilt is great for forcing a whiff then punishing it. Slidey cloud is GOAT.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Corrin is a character that rewards patience, and loves to punish mistakes, landing options, and rolls. You shouldn't be playing this character like a rushdown character. That is not what Corrin is about. With the amount of range Corrin has, in conjunction with their slow speed, it is obvious that this character is more reactive in nature as opposed to being aggressive. Especially with a set of tools that include a strong counter, a frame 4-6 lance + dropkick, Bair, Dsmash (reverse hit), followups on tilts/aerials, a stunning projectile with a strong bonus hit, and obviously Fsmash.

Despite being frame 15, uncharged DFS is still fast enough to catch poor rolls, dodges (airdodges because it stalls?), landings, and spaced moves. Furthermore, it sort of functions like an aerial Smash Attack while jumping. That's the best way that I can describe it, as there aren't many other moves that I can see being used in the same way. You have charged shots, Giant Punch, and LB Cross Slash, but those obviously take time to charge up. Probably the closest thing I can describe it to is Ganondorf's Fair. It has similar frame data (Ganon's Fair hits on Frame 14) and similar knockback (though uncharged DFS deals 6% more damage). The differences between the two are that DFS stalls you in the air, and DFS has more horizontal range at the cost of not having an arcing hitbox (making it a bit more linear). But overall, I can see players using it in similar situations by comparison. In particular, uncharged DFS is going to be very powerful against opponents on platforms who have their evasive options crippled. And guess who has a lot of attacks that can send the opponent upwards? If that doesn't work, you still have a fairly strong Uair, Fair chains, Side B platform snapping, Counter Surge, and other tools to rely on. Corrin wants to play on stages with platforms. And their Uthrow/Dthrow is just strong enough to net some late KOs while on platforms, as well.

In other news, I really wish that Corrin had better walking speed, or a slightly faster Dsmash. Reverse Dsmash seems necessary in some instances for netting KOs, but Corrin's speed hinders the ability to do this with consistent efficiency. Corrin takes about half a second before going into their full speed walking animation, and Dsmash only comes out on frame 13. It is a shame, since otherwise Walk -> Turnaround Dsmash would be a much more appealing option otherwise. It is still useful, and kills fairly early if you space it correctly, although I can see it becoming quite predictable over time against strong players. Oh well.

 

[Megamang]

So perfect pivot it! =D

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

So perfect pivot it! =D

If I had more dexterity to do that, I would. I need more practice, lol

 

[bc1910]

Counter Surge and Witch Time are the most obnoxious counters in the game.

They are consistent at actually hitting the attacker, they kill at obscenely low percents and they work in the air.

Glad to see Sakurai end Super Smash Bros: Counter Edition on a high note with these two.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The majority of Bayos combos are really strong. uSpecial > ABK > uSpecial > ABK > uAir for example kills at 60 and only the first ABK needs a DI softread, everything else is guaranteed afaik. I hope at least every combo with a fAir included turns out to be DI-able, or I can't see her not being stupidly good.

 

[C0rvus]

Fair1 stuff is all DIable if my testing is correct. Fair1 is a dope mixup though. Mid percent, if I SH fair you, it's a tech chase situation.
Basically, if Bayo combos you off the ledge, DI down and away. The Kicks seem to be the best place to escape her combos.

 

[Radical Larry]

So perfect pivot it! =D

That'd be nice, only if it were actually useful.
I don't get perfect pivoting at all, really; it's not even useful at all. What's the point of suddenly turning after an initial dash? Especially when it doesn't do much? Is there apparently something I'm missing?

 

[C0rvus]

That'd be nice, only if it were actually useful.
I don't get perfect pivoting at all, really; it's not even useful at all. What's the point of suddenly turning after an initial dash? Especially when it doesn't do much? Is there apparently something I'm missing?

Microspacing is pretty helpful for some characters, but not all of them. Characters with good buttons for counterpoking or spacing (Marth) can make good use of it. It's very situational, though. Others can use it to extend combos or punish things in manners normally not possible (ex: Void using PP ftilt to continue his incredible Sheik combo, or Greninja using PP ftilt to punish a whiffed Falcon Kick or Afterburner Kick.) It's also fun when you get the hang of it, especially if you're like me and need to be doing something at all times with your hands.

Edit: So Bayonetta is reminding me more and more of PM Lucario the more I play her. Mediocre neutral and ground moves, but has some nifty mobility-centric specials and long combo punishes. Might keep working on her, especially because her edgeguards are super strong.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

That'd be nice, only if it were actually useful.
I don't get perfect pivoting at all, really; it's not even useful at all. What's the point of suddenly turning after an initial dash? Especially when it doesn't do much? Is there apparently something I'm missing?

spacing, makes things safe without putting much time into relocating yourself.

 

[Radical Larry]

spacing, makes things safe without putting much time into relocating yourself.

You'll get more spacing out of Fox's turnaround > jump than a perfect pivot, though. It's a laughable amount of bigger distance.

 

[Megamang]

That'd be nice, only if it were actually useful.
I don't get perfect pivoting at all, really; it's not even useful at all. What's the point of suddenly turning after an initial dash? Especially when it doesn't do much? Is there apparently something I'm missing?

Well, you could use it to extend your utilt chains with link more easily. It allows you to tilt faster (especially if your dash is subpar). You'll notice the best characters are the ones with the best mobility in some way. PP helps you with mobility. Turning around suddenly can be very useful with many characters. Another link example, you could PP towards a character who can stuff your Fair OOS, shield, then bair OOS to start a combo. Really it depends on your creativity.

EDIT: Fox's PP is huge and a giant help to his game. Anyone who has an utilt that comes out from behind really enjoys the flexability PP provides. You've clearly never played a high level fox if you think PP doesn't play a big part in his game.

PS: There is a difference between space and spacing. More spacing doesn't mean what you think it does.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

What do you guys think about corrin? I think she is as minimum as Mid tier for various reasons.

Nice Kill moves
Nice Combos
Side B(This move is amazing)
Bair(Good on shield)


More are their, but one thing holding her back is her movement. It is quite meh but I think it can be worked around.

 

[Megamang]

I almost wish the lance and kick was way way weaker, but almost lagless and allowed her to move around like spindash or kart dash.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

Since the most recent patch probably didn't affect the best characters in the game, I think it's time to ask the what I think is the most important question in the meta right now. Who fights Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina the best at the same time? These character are probably now set in stone as the top 3 as of now. If a character loses out to one or two of them, they won't be making many top 8 at majors anytime soon.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm a big user of Palutena's PP Jab to retreat and just put a hitbox out to stuff any reflexive chasing. I've been practicing PP Shield in order to circumvent having to wait for Run or use a slow Walking speed, and trying to find the stick angle for PP uTilt since that would catch more punishes that fSmash couldn't and kill at lower %s than Dash Attack.

PPing is like wavedashing, just a much stricter stick position. It will get very important once we start to flesh out characters with strong grounded frame data.

 

[Ffamran]

Counter Surge and Witch Time are the most obnoxious counters in the game.

They are consistent at actually hitting the attacker, they kill at obscenely low percents and they work in the air.

Glad to see Sakurai end Super Smash Bros: Counter Edition on a high note with these two.

Y'know what else is obnoxious? Bad rapid jabs when compared to good ones.

Spoiler: Rapid jab rant

All the DLC characters that have rapid jabs? Bayonetta, Corrin, and Mewtwo? Fantastic. Characters by default who have really bad rapid jabs? At launch, Bowser Jr.?, Captain Falcon, Diddy, Falco, Fox?, Greninja, Meta Knight, the Pits, and Robin. Now? Bowser Jr.?, Captain Falcon, Falco, Greninja, and the Pits while Diddy and Meta Knight went on from having bad rapid jabs to good rapid jabs and Fox and Robin went from having bad rapid jabs to having among the best rapid jabs. Of those characters, only Bowser Jr.? and Falco have no other option. For 3-hit jabs, Captain Falcon's considered among the best, Greninja's good, and the Pits just have another good option. Because I'm not sure on Bowser Jr., I'm only going to comment on Falco and it's really, really stupid how his rapid jab still hasn't been fixed like all the others. And then they introduce characters with functioning rapid jabs; Bayonetta's you cannot SDI out of? - probably misinformed here when someone said Bayleef's moves can't be SDI'd when Corrin's can -, Corrin has access to both a good 3-hit jab and a good rapid jab, and Mewtwo's rapid jab is basically like Palutena's where it's difficult to get out.

Is it "fine" that Falco and the Pits rapid jab push people out far enough they're stuck hitting the air? Freaking Mario gets pushed out and starts to land and "wobble" in a way where Falco's rapid jab misses every other hit from 0%. Is it "fine" that you can jump out of Captain Falcon, Falco, and Greninja's rapid jab? No, it's not. It's frankly annoying that at almost any percent, you can jump out of any part of Falco's jab. It's frankly annoying how Greninja's rapid jab animation lies to everyone and he has shorter range. It's also frankly stupid how Falco and the Pits' rapid jab made it past character drafting when their rapid jabs look like they have lines for hitboxes while everyone else has at least a small circle like Mewtwo's, a freaking square like Bayonetta's, or 2 floating "disjointed" orbs of doom like Rosalina & Luma's. I hated Pit's HAYAYAYAYAYA!, but that could have easily been repurposed as his rapid jab to give it a better hitbox. Falco? Falco's is utterly screwed because he's leaning in with his body. No other character has a rapid jab that shoves them in with a "KILL ME!" sign and long enough transition from jab 2 to rapid jab that also says, "KILL ME!" Why not make him spin like this: http://i.imgur.com/zIsrHhy.gif, so his body's out of the way? They could have even Macgyvered Dancing Blade Up 3's animation as a jab 3 for him... Or pull a Little Mac, but with chops...

Fixing theirs is almost easy, but the problem is that rapid jab frame data is just nonexistent at times. Maybe their hit angles are just crap compared to Bayonetta, Mewtwo, and Palutena's. Maybe they have too low knockback. I don't know. Point is, some rapid jabs really need some re-tuning since it's almost disgraceful to even call them attacks when people fall out, can jump out whenever, or are pushed out. They're not supposed to be vortexes of doom - Hi, Rosalina & Luma -, but they're also not supposed to be steaming piles of horse crap, especially if a character has no other option, but to use rapid jab unlike some who have jab 3 to fall back on.

 

[Lavani]

In case it wasn't known yet, Kamui/Corrin's sideB and fsmash have item priority just like Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves, meaning they can be clanked by aerials.

Important to consider when these moves can be stabbing you offstage.

 

[Radical Larry]

Since the most recent patch probably didn't affect the best characters in the game, I think it's time to ask the what I think is the most important question in the meta right now. Who fights Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina the best at the same time? These character are probably now set in stone as the top 3 as of now. If a character loses out to one or two of them, they won't be making many top 8 at majors anytime soon.

From all of my experience, and I'll be very honest about this. This has always come from my experience, but...
It's Link. You might already write this off as a troll post, but hear me out as to why I think this way in the first place, you shouldn't pass this up just yet.

Link doesn't have the best mobility in the game, nor the best frame data or anything like that, but what he lacks in mobility and some attacks having sub-par frame data is literally everything else. Link has a Jab > Spin Attack combo against the three characters, which is basically a kill confirm at higher damages, Link has the ability to out-range all three characters in terms of attacks and Link has, above all else, projectiles that are actually reliable against these opponents and kill power.

First, I'll talk about ZSS, since I know more about MUs for her and Link than I do with the other two.

With Zero Suit Samus, she's actually the least troublesome of the three queens for Link. ZSS has the best mobility for sure and great attack speed and combo-to-KO ability, but what matters here is how Link retaliates. If ZSS is going for her U-Air ladder, Link needs to first DI and then perform one of 3 options, F-Air, D-Air or N-Air. The least damaging, but safest all around, is using his N-Air on her to possibly reposition him from disadvantage to advantage. The second most safest is his D-Air, which he has to literally fast-fall with at the right moment in time to turn it around. If ZSS whiffs her Up B and Link performs anything to get him out of stun, Link can fast fall faster than her to get himself into a punish position quick; the best way to do this is using Link's N-Air and avoiding ZSS. If ZSS uses her Flip Jump, another example, wouldn't it be wise for Link to actually stay in the midst of it and hit her near the end with an upwards attack?

Secondly, Link has something against ZSS that ZSS doesn't have against Link, a very great ranged get up option with F-Air, and range itself. And from that we also have Link's range vs ZSS's range, which is actually superior even with worse frame data. While it's true that ZSS does have a great projectile, it's not the best and can easily be trumped by Link's N-Air or Bomb. Link's Bomb also allows for setups that are unimaginably amazing against ZSS. The Bombs need to be respected, especially paired with Link's Boomerang, which makes the Bombs abnormally better since two items cover the field of options.

One thing that people often overlook is Link's ability to actually defeat ZSS's recovery options and even kill ZSS vertically. Link can beat ZSS's own Flip Jump with an F-Tilt or an F-Air if ZSS uses it parallel to Link at the perfect range, so if ZSS gets hit, it might potentially be all over at the right damage. If ZSS goes under the stage, Link can RAR N-Air, B-Air or even D-Air her into a stage spike (and only on Battlefield can he stage spike her with a grounded Spin Attack).

With ZSS, it's a game of patience and accuracy, as well as knowing when to dodge her grab, because that's the thing that will sometimes get me, so if I see her rushing up and going for the grab, I'll immediately roll away for safety and punish accordingly or QDJ (quick double jump) away from her and then punish. Accuracy comes into play when Link has to make sure every hit counts and that any hit on him can spell disaster.

Stage selection also comes into play with this, as selecting Final Destination and Lylat Cruise are Link's best options against ZSS. Final Destination won't allow ZSS to kill much earlier and Lylat Cruise has a large vertical ceiling, making it similar to FD in terms of usage. These stages also allow for Link to possibly gain the upper hand in battle, since the removal of platforms for FD means he can freely FF D-Air for a potential punish, and the low platforms in Lylat means that Link can safely hit ZSS from underneath with somewhat little repercussion, especially if Link pressures with U-Tilt and ends the pressure with U-Smash.

In my experience playing ZSS, Link vs ZSS would be a clear 50:50. What does Link in though, is the fact that he's heavy, has below average speed and has some somewhat below-average moves in terms of speed. Otherwise, Link has the tools to at least fend off ZSS. And remember, this is from my experience in offline tournaments and With Friends, not For Glory.

 

[Y2Kay]

Hey guys, I heard that Bayonetta has infinite wall jumps. Is this true?

 

[Hippieslayer]

I mean, if you think MU knowledge on how to fight new characters can be developed within days, then sure, take all his results seriously.

On a more politically-correct note, I think remembering the context of the result should be emphasized. every result known is different.

Actually people can learn a matchup decently pretty quickly. Its just one matchup. The one against Cloud. Its harder for the Cloud players to learn all the matchups they need to know as they are far more numerous. Which just speaks in his favor. At Genesis 3 people knew how to fight Cloud, those who didn't were not properly prepared and didn't place among the top players.

As for the Cloud players, if you mean to say they need to do some work and develop.. well that too speaks in his favor. He's not exactly going to become weaker. Moreover his strengths are there in plain sight, on paper. Come on. You can be sceptical about how good he is. But he's really good, and that's not really up for discussion. Maybe in a year he'll be worse, but not because he's bad now but because who knows how the meta will look in a year.

 

[Lavani]

Hey guys, I heard that Bayonetta has infinite wall jumps. Is this true?

Every character that can wall cling does.

Lucario's the only one that can actually gain height with repeated wall jumps though, I believe.

 

[Y2Kay]

Every character that can wall cling does.

Lucario's the only one that can actually gain height with repeated wall jumps though, I believe.

I know, I meant that time limit before you can wall cling again doesn't apply to her.

 

[Latias]

What do you guys think about corrin? I think she is as minimum as Mid tier for various reasons.

Nice Kill moves
Nice Combos
Side B(This move is amazing)
Bair(Good on shield)


More are their, but one thing holding her back is her movement. It is quite meh but I think it can be worked around.

From my experience with Corrin I've had issues killing. Normally I get the kill at 140% plus, I might be doing something wrong but the only times I get a kill earlier than that are with a tipper smash, counter, or uair near the blastzone which aren't the most reliable (besides upair.) The main issue with corrin is he can't get opponents off the stage, little macs bad recovery for instance isn't an issue because corrin doesn't have any good horizontal knockback moves.

From all of my experience, and I'll be very honest about this. This has always come from my experience, but...
It's Link.

Sigh..

 

[Lavani]

I know, I meant that time limit before you can wall cling again doesn't apply to her.

Nope. She has a net loss of height by the time she can wall cling again.

Wall clings don't set a cooldown on wall jumps though, so she (as well as Lucario, Greninja, etc) can cling>jump>wall jump at the apex and probably get back to the ledge from the bottom blast zone on walled stages without needing a double jump.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

From all of my experience, and I'll be very honest about this. This has always come from my experience, but...
It's Link. You might already write this off as a troll post, but hear me out as to why I think this way in the first place, you shouldn't pass this up just yet.

Link doesn't have the best mobility in the game, nor the best frame data or anything like that, but what he lacks in mobility and some attacks having sub-par frame data is literally everything else. Link has a Jab > Spin Attack combo against the three characters, which is basically a kill confirm at higher damages, Link has the ability to out-range all three characters in terms of attacks and Link has, above all else, projectiles that are actually reliable against these opponents and kill power.

First, I'll talk about ZSS, since I know more about MUs for her and Link than I do with the other two.

With Zero Suit Samus, she's actually the least troublesome of the three queens for Link. ZSS has the best mobility for sure and great attack speed and combo-to-KO ability, but what matters here is how Link retaliates. If ZSS is going for her U-Air ladder, Link needs to first DI and then perform one of 3 options, F-Air, D-Air or N-Air. The least damaging, but safest all around, is using his N-Air on her to possibly reposition him from disadvantage to advantage. The second most safest is his D-Air, which he has to literally fast-fall with at the right moment in time to turn it around. If ZSS whiffs her Up B and Link performs anything to get him out of stun, Link can fast fall faster than her to get himself into a punish position quick; the best way to do this is using Link's N-Air and avoiding ZSS. If ZSS uses her Flip Jump, another example, wouldn't it be wise for Link to actually stay in the midst of it and hit her near the end with an upwards attack?

Secondly, Link has something against ZSS that ZSS doesn't have against Link, a very great ranged get up option with F-Air, and range itself. And from that we also have Link's range vs ZSS's range, which is actually superior even with worse frame data. While it's true that ZSS does have a great projectile, it's not the best and can easily be trumped by Link's N-Air or Bomb. Link's Bomb also allows for setups that are unimaginably amazing against ZSS. The Bombs need to be respected, especially paired with Link's Boomerang, which makes the Bombs abnormally better since two items cover the field of options.

One thing that people often overlook is Link's ability to actually defeat ZSS's recovery options and even kill ZSS vertically. Link can beat ZSS's own Flip Jump with an F-Tilt or an F-Air if ZSS uses it parallel to Link at the perfect range, so if ZSS gets hit, it might potentially be all over at the right damage. If ZSS goes under the stage, Link can RAR N-Air, B-Air or even D-Air her into a stage spike (and only on Battlefield can he stage spike her with a grounded Spin Attack).

With ZSS, it's a game of patience and accuracy, as well as knowing when to dodge her grab, because that's the thing that will sometimes get me, so if I see her rushing up and going for the grab, I'll immediately roll away for safety and punish accordingly or QDJ (quick double jump) away from her and then punish. Accuracy comes into play when Link has to make sure every hit counts and that any hit on him can spell disaster.

Stage selection also comes into play with this, as selecting Final Destination and Lylat Cruise are Link's best options against ZSS. Final Destination won't allow ZSS to kill much earlier and Lylat Cruise has a large vertical ceiling, making it similar to FD in terms of usage. These stages also allow for Link to possibly gain the upper hand in battle, since the removal of platforms for FD means he can freely FF D-Air for a potential punish, and the low platforms in Lylat means that Link can safely hit ZSS from underneath with somewhat little repercussion, especially if Link pressures with U-Tilt and ends the pressure with U-Smash.

In my experience playing ZSS, Link vs ZSS would be a clear 50:50. What does Link in though, is the fact that he's heavy, has below average speed and has some somewhat below-average moves in terms of speed. Otherwise, Link has the tools to at least fend off ZSS. And remember, this is from my experience in offline tournaments and With Friends, not For Glory.

All I see from these are average things. "If she misses" "if I see" etc. Apparantly, Link has an option for everything, but can't hit more than one option at once. Stage spikes don't count for edge-guarding, a good player will tech most of them. And what do you mean by "stay in the midst of it [flip kick] and punish with an upwards attack" because you will most likely be trying to d-air because it's so amazing right.

Avoiding ZSS's grab is EVERYBODYS GAME PLAN! No questions. JIGGLYPUFF can crouch-rest her grab, does that make the MU good?

Being able to hit ZSS under a platform is what he can do to all characters, so top tier confirmed?

To you, Link is way better than reality, so im actually not surprised you replied to that guys comment.

 

[Latias]

All I see from these are average things. "If she misses" "if I see" etc. Apparantly, Link has an option for everything, but can't hit more than one option at once. Stage spikes don't count for edge-guarding, a good player will tech most of them. And what do you mean by "stay in the midst of it [flip kick] and punish with an upwards attack" because you will most likely be trying to d-air because it's so amazing right.

Avoiding ZSS's grab is EVERYBODYS GAME PLAN! No questions. JIGGLYPUFF can crouch-rest her grab, does that make the MU good?

Being able to hit ZSS under a platform is what he can do to all characters, so top tier confirmed?

To you, Link is way better than reality, so im actually not surprised you replied to that guys comment.

Just don't acknowledge him..

 

[ARISTOS]

Apparently Boost Kick got nerfed from 220 KBG (Jesus wtf) to 209 and got it's angle changed from 50 to 48.

Don't think this'll stop the staircase but it'll probably reduce the potency of Boost Kick OOS

 

[Blobface]

I still think he will be like a high level ganondorf; if you can read your opponent you can win. Only he has a functioning neutral. And a disjoint. And amazing mobility. And a way to force approaches.

{; - ;}

Anyway, how many characters have D-throws that take more/less time based on the targets weight? I know Ganon and Captain Falcon's have this property, but are there more?

 

[JesterJaded]

Just don't acknowledge him..

Quoting his post to sigh at him is still acknowledging him. Just sayin'.

Y2Kay You mentioned that there were a lot of misconceptions about Greninja in this thread and that you were going to bring it up today, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the character if it isn't too much to request. He's captured my interest recently.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Actually people can learn a matchup decently pretty quickly. Its just one matchup. The one against Cloud. Its harder for the Cloud players to learn all the matchups they need to know as they are far more numerous. Which just speaks in his favor. At Genesis 3 people knew how to fight Cloud, those who didn't were not properly prepared and didn't place among the top players.

As for the Cloud players, if you mean to say they need to do some work and develop.. well that too speaks in his favor. He's not exactly going to become weaker. Moreover his strengths are there in plain sight, on paper. Come on. You can be sceptical about how good he is. But he's really good, and that's not really up for discussion. Maybe in a year he'll be worse, but not because he's bad now but because who knows how the meta will look in a year.

Learning a MU takes a lil minute lol. You can't play against one person a lot and say,"I've learned the Match-up!" People do different things with the same character; you have to play a variety of people to gather a strong sense of MU knowledge. However, I'm going to say that there are exceptions to the rule; people have been able to divide the player from their character and dissect the character vs character scenario. It's just that it's much harder to do and to differentiate.

And cloud players don't have nearly much against them as you proclaim. Cloud players have the advantage of dealing with characters that they've previously already knew to deal with before they were cloud players and since they main cloud, they'll be able to piece the puzzle back together. Cloud is a good character; His kit, when analysized well, holds up; his results supports his stance as among the top tiers. Im just saying you can't use beginning results as a factor of anything,but how cloud abuses MU inexperience.

From all of my experience, and I'll be very honest about this. This has always come from my experience, but...
It's Link. You might already write this off as a troll post, but hear me out as to why I think this way in the first place, you shouldn't pass this up just yet.

Link doesn't have the best mobility in the game, nor the best frame data or anything like that, but what he lacks in mobility and some attacks having sub-par frame data is literally everything else. Link has a Jab > Spin Attack combo against the three characters, which is basically a kill confirm at higher damages, Link has the ability to out-range all three characters in terms of attacks and Link has, above all else, projectiles that are actually reliable against these opponents and kill power.

First, I'll talk about ZSS, since I know more about MUs for her and Link than I do with the other two.

With Zero Suit Samus, she's actually the least troublesome of the three queens for Link. ZSS has the best mobility for sure and great attack speed and combo-to-KO ability, but what matters here is how Link retaliates. If ZSS is going for her U-Air ladder, Link needs to first DI and then perform one of 3 options, F-Air, D-Air or N-Air. The least damaging, but safest all around, is using his N-Air on her to possibly reposition him from disadvantage to advantage. The second most safest is his D-Air, which he has to literally fast-fall with at the right moment in time to turn it around. If ZSS whiffs her Up B and Link performs anything to get him out of stun, Link can fast fall faster than her to get himself into a punish position quick; the best way to do this is using Link's N-Air and avoiding ZSS. If ZSS uses her Flip Jump, another example, wouldn't it be wise for Link to actually stay in the midst of it and hit her near the end with an upwards attack?

Secondly, Link has something against ZSS that ZSS doesn't have against Link, a very great ranged get up option with F-Air, and range itself. And from that we also have Link's range vs ZSS's range, which is actually superior even with worse frame data. While it's true that ZSS does have a great projectile, it's not the best and can easily be trumped by Link's N-Air or Bomb. Link's Bomb also allows for setups that are unimaginably amazing against ZSS. The Bombs need to be respected, especially paired with Link's Boomerang, which makes the Bombs abnormally better since two items cover the field of options.

One thing that people often overlook is Link's ability to actually defeat ZSS's recovery options and even kill ZSS vertically. Link can beat ZSS's own Flip Jump with an F-Tilt or an F-Air if ZSS uses it parallel to Link at the perfect range, so if ZSS gets hit, it might potentially be all over at the right damage. If ZSS goes under the stage, Link can RAR N-Air, B-Air or even D-Air her into a stage spike (and only on Battlefield can he stage spike her with a grounded Spin Attack).

With ZSS, it's a game of patience and accuracy, as well as knowing when to dodge her grab, because that's the thing that will sometimes get me, so if I see her rushing up and going for the grab, I'll immediately roll away for safety and punish accordingly or QDJ (quick double jump) away from her and then punish. Accuracy comes into play when Link has to make sure every hit counts and that any hit on him can spell disaster.

Stage selection also comes into play with this, as selecting Final Destination and Lylat Cruise are Link's best options against ZSS. Final Destination won't allow ZSS to kill much earlier and Lylat Cruise has a large vertical ceiling, making it similar to FD in terms of usage. These stages also allow for Link to possibly gain the upper hand in battle, since the removal of platforms for FD means he can freely FF D-Air for a potential punish, and the low platforms in Lylat means that Link can safely hit ZSS from underneath with somewhat little repercussion, especially if Link pressures with U-Tilt and ends the pressure with U-Smash.

In my experience playing ZSS, Link vs ZSS would be a clear 50:50. What does Link in though, is the fact that he's heavy, has below average speed and has some somewhat below-average moves in terms of speed. Otherwise, Link has the tools to at least fend off ZSS. And remember, this is from my experience in offline tournaments and With Friends, not For Glory.

You're basing this off of your personal experience. This is only effective if your credibility as a player can support this experience ie. How good you are. I think going more objective-based instead of giving "testimonies" is better for convincing people of your opinion (which is a huge contrasting one to the popular consensus and the history of smash itself).

 

[Y2Kay]

Quoting his post to sigh at him is still acknowledging him. Just sayin'.

Y2Kay You mentioned that there were a lot of misconceptions about Greninja in this thread and that you were going to mention it today, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the character if it isn't too much to request. He's captured my interest recently.

I think I will wait till after istudying kicks some butt at Avalon U-2. I was busier than expected, sorry!

 

[Aninymouse]

Many characters such as ?
And Roy players win tournaments, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I keep my eye on a lot of different regions. I've never seen Roy win, except perhaps when he was brand new and no one knew how to fight him.

Wii Fit, Mewtwo, Falco, and Kirby have all won more local tournaments than Roy. Game & Watch has done much better than Roy in Japan.

Show me tournaments that Roy has won. If he is winning, I want to know about it. Otherwise, I think Roy's spot on the tier list is totally wrong.

 

[R3D3MON]

{; - ;}

Anyway, how many characters have D-throws that take more/less time based on the targets weight? I know Ganon and Captain Falcon's have this property, but are there more?

Mario, Dr. Mario, Game and watch, Robin, Villager, Charizard, and Yoshi has this property on his d-throws (I probably forgot to list some characters, but these are the characters that have d-throw as their most prominent combo throw). Many characters with combo throws are somewhat limited by the weight dependency factor, which is why certain kill setups don't work with heavy characters because they can either DI away and air dodge out or sometimes just jump out. For example, mario's d-throw>fair at ~80% and higher doesn't work with any of the super heavyweights because they can just air dodge.