Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Greward]

Given the nature of Bayonetta's combos, it's not completely infeasible to imagine good (S)DI from the opponent making her miss the followup hit and then get smacked offstage without one or more of her Twists, Kicks, or double jump. (And heaven help you if you already burned both Twists.) Although this probably falls under the vague umbrella of "human error" aka "don't play stupid".

But seriously, Witch Twist by itself is Little Mac tier recovery.

The "combos could be smash DI-able" isn't exactly a flaw until we see that being done. Still it's justthe upB that could be affected by that.
Her recovery is super good, she might be lacking a bit if she has no double jump but still can side b to upb which is not bad. With jump she can side b + x2 upB + jump which means a lot of options. Besides both moves are very hard to intercept, specially upB.
If she gets hit she regains the sideB if I'm not wrong so... yeah.

She doesn't really have any glaring weakness, besides being light I guess (and she's not that light). It's a well rounded character with some overpowered stuff.

Witch time is a stupid move because it makes any kind of move that is not a grab be potentially deadly at any %.
You are getting juggled and land with any aerial? If she witch times, you're done for. There's no real counterplay besides grabbing and you can only go for that in some situations. It's also the least punishable of the counters, and the opponent can only pray to god that you won't use it when they attack. Because no character can resort to only grabbing.
Her side b is as stupid as bouncing fish or more in terms of being safe and reward off of it. UpB is the best escape move probably, frame 4 with good range and hitting both sides + being completely safe (unless read and punished with an aerial).

The thing about bayonetta is that she doesn't need the early kill combos to be a successful character. If she gets one, all the better, but she can work without them.

 

[Radical Larry]

So my little brother got second place in a Smash 4 college tournament using primarily . He had a perfect run until his friend used on him in Grand Finals. But before that, there was a / player who made third place. This was out of 54 people, so not much, but it's impressive that two low tiers still made it to the top 8 in the college tournament. And the thing is, there were Sheik players, who just apparently kept losing one after another.

Anyways, outside of that little post, I do have something on Link.
"Man your stations! He's going to fire a radical post!" -Everyone

Joking aside, I've been using Link's Z-Air more and more often as a stage getup option for its superior range to F-Air and its ability to give Link a guaranteed grab off of most of the cast at up to even higher damages. The thing is, is that I have to hit with both hits or else it fails, but when the opponent does get hit by the second hit, there's enough lag to where they will be unable to move, allowing Link to do a dash grab once he gets back on the stage; due to the near-lagless nature of Z-Air, it's a good tool to use on ground on opponents.

Link's Z-Air might solve some problems against opponents who are attempting to cover his getup with a counterattack. With Z-Air's hefty range, Link might not have any use to using a roll getup, since roll getups are somewhat detrimental to any player since opponents can just charge Smash attacks for a potential KO; they're only ever useful when the opponent is off stage or reads an aerial getup.

Link's best aerial might end up being his Z-Air, and it's got a lot of unexplored usage that needs light shed on it. Yeah, the attack doesn't do much damage and comes somewhat slowly, but it is still a great spacing tool on stage and an amazing grab confirm off stage. I can't really say the same with or , because Samus's grab is too slow, and both Toon Link and Lucas's ranges are very small, but the two may be able to pull it off. Samus just can't. might, but I haven't done her yet.

 

[Pancracio17]

yeah, Bayonetta's recovery is stupid good, she can recover from the blast zone without a single special thanks to multiple wall jumps and if optimized correctly she can recover from the edge without using her jump

as for her gameplan, I think its just looking for an opening and punish with side-b and go off from there, and once she gets a combo going she has to be very careful to not overextend. witch time is also a fantastic move as she has not the best startup would normally get outbuttoned by rushdowns she can inflict fear and and not suffer as much. witch twist also helps since its frame 4.

 

[L9999]

So my little brother got second place in a Smash 4 college tournament using primarily . He had a perfect run until his friend used on him in Grand Finals. But before that, there was a / player who made third place. This was out of 54 people, so not much, but it's impressive that two low tiers still made it to the top 8 in the college tournament. And the thing is, there were Sheik players, who just apparently kept losing one after another.

Anyways, outside of that little post, I do have something on Link.
"Man your stations! He's going to fire a radical post!" -Everyone

Joking aside, I've been using Link's Z-Air more and more often as a stage getup option for its superior range to F-Air and its ability to give Link a guaranteed grab off of most of the cast at up to even higher damages. The thing is, is that I have to hit with both hits or else it fails, but when the opponent does get hit by the second hit, there's enough lag to where they will be unable to move, allowing Link to do a dash grab once he gets back on the stage; due to the near-lagless nature of Z-Air, it's a good tool to use on ground on opponents.

Link's Z-Air might solve some problems against opponents who are attempting to cover his getup with a counterattack. With Z-Air's hefty range, Link might not have any use to using a roll getup, since roll getups are somewhat detrimental to any player since opponents can just charge Smash attacks for a potential KO; they're only ever useful when the opponent is off stage or reads an aerial getup.

Link's best aerial might end up being his Z-Air, and it's got a lot of unexplored usage that needs light shed on it. Yeah, the attack doesn't do much damage and comes somewhat slowly, but it is still a great spacing tool on stage and an amazing grab confirm off stage. I can't really say the same with or , because Samus's grab is too slow, and both Toon Link and Lucas's ranges are very small, but the two may be able to pull it off. Samus just can't. might, but I haven't done her yet.

Not to be agressive, but anyone can win at local level. The last big tournament on my city (had 64 people) was won by Yoshi, with Marth second (and that Marth beat me up) and third a Captain Falcon. Sure, congratulations for that placing to any low tier hero but it's a local nonetheless.

 

[Radical Larry]

Not to be agressive, but anyone can win at local level. The last big tournament on my city (had 64 people) was won by Yoshi, with Marth second (and that Marth beat me up) and third a Captain Falcon. Sure, congratulations for that placing to any low tier hero but it's a local nonetheless.

There is video of it (sadly, my school blocks any videos related to games now, and that is one of the most inane things ever), so just go to ULM Smash Community and you'll find the videos of them. Regardless of it being a local, some things may happen later; you may not know if my brother, his friend or others may even attend higher tournaments, regionals, nationals, whatever, and win. Locals might be little in comparison to others, but it's a start.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sheik loses all the time in low and even mid level play. That is what makes her such a good top tier to tolerate. This is unlike the stupid at any level characters like Ryu, Falcon, Ness, Mario, Cloud, Sonic, and Bayonetta (and yes I know not every character mentioned here is that good *cough*Falcon but they all fall under that stupid category.)

 

[Nobie]

I do find it interesting that with like the 5 billion Links on For Glory that we don't see very many of them at even locals or regionals.

 

[Tizio Random]

I do find it interesting that with like the 5 billion Links on For Glory that we don't see very many of them at even locals or regionals.

Yeah but when it happens it's frustating as hell. You're so happy and ready to finally go to a tournament to fight good players and... first match vs a FG Link player. The first game we went to Final Destination (I would have banned the stage but we are in Italy and I was confident enough so f*** the rules). I won but that was the most annoying and anti-hype match ever. The second match I brought him to Battlefield and it was almost an easy JV3 for me.

 

[KenMeister]

Sheik loses all the time in low and even mid level play. That is what makes her such a good top tier to tolerate. This is unlike the stupid at any level characters like Ryu, Falcon, Ness, Mario, Cloud, Sonic, and Bayonetta (and yes I know not every character mentioned here is that good *cough*Falcon but they all fall under that stupid category.)

Take Ryu out of the equation and I'd agree with ya mate.

I do find it interesting that with like the 5 billion Links on For Glory that we don't see very many of them at even locals or regionals.

I think that can account for literally every common mid/low tier you see on FG, like Ganon, Mac, Charizard, etc. lol

 

[Y2Kay]

I do find it interesting that with like the 5 billion Links on For Glory that we don't see very many of them at even locals or regionals.

To me it feels like every small scene has that one link main

Doesn't feel like a local tourney without that one link main kickin' scrubs butts.

 

[juddy96]

Eaux @ u forgetting St Louis!

Bert's Bi Monthly: SYHO, 78 entrants. Winner Fye 2nd Flow-Yo 3rd SM_Strat

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-your-heart-out-top-32.11946/event

Get into it gurls!

Maybe you should read that I only did a list on tournaments starting on Saturday not Sunday

 

[Thinkaman]

The attitude that only tourneys of a certain level "matter" is equivalent to saying that anyone incapable of getting 1st at such events is irrelevant and shouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

It's possible to understand that international events have a different significance than locals without entirely dismissing the latter.



Similarly, if I claim a character is irrelevant without being able to consistently beat the best main of that character in the world, I am a complete fool.

(And if I can consistently beat them, I'm no longer a fool, but merely really self-centered and choosing to ignore the experience of 99.99% of the community.)

 

[KenMeister]

The attitude that only tourneys of a certain level "matter" is equivalent to saying that anyone incapable of getting 1st at such events is irrelevant and shouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

It's possible to understand that international events have a different significance than locals without entirely dismissing the latter.



Similarly, if I claim a character is irrelevant without being able to consistently beat the best main of that character in the world, I am a complete fool.

(And if I can consistently beat them, I'm no longer a fool, but merely really self-centered and choosing to ignore the experience of 99.99% of the community.)

Well that, and sometimes you ONLY find great players in locals and regionals. A player who I'm sure not many have heard of it, SMS Medic, is ranked #1 on the Mississippi PR, has consistently kept his spot by winning or placing well in multiple areas around Alabama, Mississippi, maybe other nearby areas, and even Northern Florida. Not the ultimate best competition I'm sure but just to gauge a rough example.

 

[juddy96]

Well that, and sometimes you ONLY find great players in locals and regionals. A player who I'm sure not many have heard of it, SMS Medic, is ranked #1 on the Mississippi PR, has consistently kept his spot by winning or placing well in multiple areas around Alabama, Mississippi, maybe other nearby areas, and even Northern Florida. Not the ultimate best competition I'm sure but just to gauge a rough example.

Unrelated, but do u have the Mississippi PR? It hasn't been added to the PR thread

 

[Solfiner]

The attitude that only tourneys of a certain level "matter" is equivalent to saying that anyone incapable of getting 1st at such events is irrelevant and shouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

It's possible to understand that international events have a different significance than locals without entirely dismissing the latter.



Similarly, if I claim a character is irrelevant without being able to consistently beat the best main of that character in the world, I am a complete fool.

(And if I can consistently beat them, I'm no longer a fool, but merely really self-centered and choosing to ignore the experience of 99.99% of the community.)

People also need to stop using scapegoats like "lol that region is free anyways" as well. A tournament win is a win.

 

[Rizen]

The attitude that only tourneys of a certain level "matter" is equivalent to saying that anyone incapable of getting 1st at such events is irrelevant and shouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

It's possible to understand that international events have a different significance than locals without entirely dismissing the latter.

Thank you.

I try to weigh big tourneys more heavily but it did bug me when people said smaller states (like CO) didn't matter. We had 30-60 people each event during the time I was active.
IMO locals have more character diversity because the stakes aren't high and less people travel to them. That did make it easier for non high tiers to place so I can see the point that nationals etc are better for showing how high mid and low tiers can really climb. But then again even the top players had to start somewhere. It's good to take everything (live) into account.

 

[Thinkaman]

A billion barrels of ink have been spilled trying to qualify "what tiers mean", and how that intersects with skill level and scale of competition.

It's not complicated.

It takes more work to win with a lower tier character than a higher tier. The amount of difference depends on the skill level of competition; at high levels it is much larger, and at lower levels it becomes trivial.

That's it! That's the whole thing.

 

[Locuan]

Regarding the Link Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/rankings/super-smash-con-wii-u-singles-top-128.8153/event?id=8

Those are the Smash Con results for Top 128. A Link main (Rooky) made Top 32 [He beat VGBC | Logic in bracket]. He also consistently places in locals where @Pugwest and Marss attend.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/church-of-smash-xvii-boston-ma-smash-4-weekly.10825/event
(unfortunately not all are uploaded to Smashboards)

Pugwest will know much more about Rooky's skill and what Rooky would have to improve on than I know at the moment. But as far as Link's go, Rooky is the one I'm keeping my eye on.

 

[Rizen]

edit Locuan I recommend watching Scizor from CA for Link action too.

A billion barrels of ink have been spilled trying to qualify "what tiers mean", and how that intersects with skill level and scale of competition.

It's not complicated.

It takes more work to win with a lower tier character than a higher tier. The amount of difference depends on the skill level of competition; at high levels it is much larger, and at lower levels it becomes trivial.

That's it! That's the whole thing.

Also it's easier to win vs a few people in locals than vs more people in nationals.

 

[Mario766]

Unrelated, but do u have the Mississippi PR? It hasn't been added to the PR thread

Mississippi has no smash 4 scene really.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, when I can take first place at my college tournies, forgive me for thinking it's a meaningless win; but at least personally it is. I'm better than 30+ entrants, most of which are pretty bad. Meanwhile, back in NJ I average going 2-2 at locals. I feel like I can assess the strength and worth of a smaller event in this situation.

 

[Rizen]

I mean, when I can take first place at my college tournies, forgive me for thinking it's a meaningless win; but at least personally it is. I'm better than 30+ entrants, most of which are pretty bad. Meanwhile, back in NJ I average going 2-2 at locals. I feel like I can assess the strength and worth of a smaller event in this situation.

That's a good point. Tournaments at collages or comiccons (sorry if I'm wrong, never been to comiccons) probably are more of social events than serious competitions.

 

[Jams.]

The attitude that only tourneys of a certain level "matter" is equivalent to saying that anyone incapable of getting 1st at such events is irrelevant and shouldn't even bother getting out of bed.

It's possible to understand that international events have a different significance than locals without entirely dismissing the latter.



Similarly, if I claim a character is irrelevant without being able to consistently beat the best main of that character in the world, I am a complete fool.

(And if I can consistently beat them, I'm no longer a fool, but merely really self-centered and choosing to ignore the experience of 99.99% of the community.)

This feels like a straw man argument. My impression is that almost all the posters in this thread are considerate of results at the local level, and weigh these results appropriately. Also, players incapable of placing well at locals in fairly isolated or unproven regions likely do not represent the high level metagame and their results shouldn't be used for arguments regarding character viability at a high level, that's all. Not being a high level player in a videogame is certainly not equivalent to being a worthless human being that shouldn't get out of bed in the morning, and hopefully nobody takes it that way. How good someone is at a videogame has little to no bearing on their worth as a human being, and I'm not sure why you suggest this is the case.

I think Shaya's excellent post about the different levels of play is relevant here:

Spoiler

Re MK/Pika: Small, mobile, great recovery, edge guarding tools, great read tools, non-cqc fighter unless in an advantaged position.Just because MK has the ability to kill people like a good character should, doesn't stop him from being able to achieve most things Pika could otherwise.

-

Ughh match up charts.
I don't mind them but they really are easy to be terrible, y'know?

People can really struggle to understand the game outside the realms they play in. There's a top level meta and chances are you're mid level at best.
That doesn't mean you can't have a good opinion or understanding of things, but if you're naive and can't understand EVEN AT THE MOST BASIC OF LEVELS how much better ZeRo and Nairo are compared to what you're used to (and there's probably several hundred if not thousands of players between them and you)... your frame of view on these matters can easily be not worth listening to.

In 2009 when I went to Genesis [one], I thought it would be possible I'd get top 8 (before I landed in America that is). I'd dominated tournaments locally for close to a year already. I was a theory crafting god and was a strong pillar for development in the Marth community. To top it off in terms of tournament monetary winnings I was no.1 Marth on Earth half the time while Mikehaze was the rest of the time (he maintained that for a lot longer afterwards though).
Was I no.1 Marth in the world? No. Number 2? No. This could go on for a while...
(I settled for no.1 Marth in the Southern Hemisphere )

Shock and horror, there were at least two to three tiers of skill level above me that I hadn't fully grasped.
I got around 60th at Genesis and two weeks later 17th at evo.
Since then the process of theorising and understanding has been heavily refined, noticing the smaller and smaller nuances of game play.
A 1 frame difference at top level is significant yet chances are that you're playing 5-10 frames slower on just about everything a mere "high level" player would. Mid level players have zilch chance of noticing this (playing primarily on wifi makes this significantly worse).
Many players expect basic things to go right for them all the time because they go right for them personally.

e.g.
"Forward Air is safe on shield" a Marth would say, feeling confident about their justification on a match up being good for them.
But guess what? You need to jump and you need to land. You need to be in range of them. What if they're prepared for the forward air?
Fortunately my (and all Marths) stubbornness in "forward air is safe on shield" evolved into ensuring forward air was always safe on shield, but that's what 8 frames landing lag and having an applicable auto cancel is all about, hard coded data was there to shine a light on the path at least.

Moral of the story would be that I'd rate my personal experiences very highly but not above what could at least be understood by others and argued with evidence and data.
If I couldn't provide more than just my personal experiences in any matter while being against what others thought, I would think long and hard about why that could possibly be the case and reevaluate my position.

If I can be supportive of a character at a level of play I have not reached personally, can I not be dismissive of a character as well? As long as the supporting evidence is there, arguments against a character's viability should not be dismissed with "X poster can't beat Y character's best player so X poster is a fool."

I'm not sure if I'm even arguing against the points you intended to make, but this post came off quite strong to me.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm not sure if I'm even arguing against the points you intended to make, but this post came off quite strong to me

You're not. Thinkaman was generalizing, not speaking in absolutes. I actually think you were reinforcing his point more than anything else.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nobie]

Return to theorycraft land from someone who plays neither of the following characters (feel free to tell me how wrong I am)!

I was thinking about characters who can fight Bayonetta, and someone a while back brought up Mewtwo as a potential good choice by virtue of having a strong killing projectile, a kill throw, and a strong neutral game, all things to exploit the small holes in Bayonetta's game plan. In practice, we've yet to see Mewtwo really bring it to Bayo, as @!Blue! according to Keitaro has trouble against Bayo. Might be a player thing, might be a character thing, the jury's still out.

However, that description (strong projectile, a kill throw, and a strong neutral game) to some extent describes another character: Lucario. To be fair, Lucario's neutral isn't great. I think competent would be the word I'd use to describe it, but his frame data is still generally better than Bayonetta's on average, and he has a crawl that can go under Bullet Arts Climax. And of course when it comes to getting early kills that's what Lucario's all about.

I think the possible lynchpin against Bayonetta is Force Palm. I haven't labbed it out or anything, but just looking at the data Force Palm vs. Witch Time is interesting because of how Force Palm has two components. The grab won't trigger Witch Time if performed at the same time or a few frames earlier, and similarly, if the grab misses then the projectile portion of Force Palm will not trigger Witch Time, but rather Bat Within (Witch Time ends frame 21, Force Palm blast starts Frame 24), so it can potentially cover both options/get some extra damage by triggering Bat Within.

Of course, Force Palm has really high recovery time, slower than even Bayo's rolls, so she could read the attempt, side step or roll, and punish, but it then becomes a proper guessing game AND you'd be making Bayo use her bad dodge/rolls. Bayonetta also has Witch Twist to beat out attempts at Force Palm.

This might sound a lot like "Lucario beats Sheik!!!" but I think the major difference between is that Sheik has monstrous frame data, and a really good Sheik if played optimally will give Lucario very few chances to get in. Bayonetta is nowhere near that threatening. Also, unlike Mewtwo, Lucario isn't made of papier mache so he has a firm chance to get to high percents and do his Aura thing.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Bayonettas weakness is her neutral. Its very lacking.

However she doesnt even have to win the the neutral to compete, landing just one side B (grounded or aerial) even after being outplayed the whole game can lead so a 70ish % combo or you can even end up dead from the top blast zone.

 

[deepseadiva]

Bayonetta's neutrals isn't weak it's nonexistent she doesn't HAVE a neutral.

She's either always shooting something, or she's getting hit.

Her only weakness is going to end up being tall and grabs. Like Force Palm yea

 

[Megamang]

If you only fire force palm when you call a witch time then sure its a good counter. But the blast is still a liability, if you misspace the move it can be Witch Timed, unlike regular grabs, so I'd rank it below regular kill throws personally, with an asterisk that aura can make it kill super early.

An important factor may be whatever factor of Lucario's physics which makes him have severe difficulty escaping boost kick, because if he is one of a few characters unable to SDI witch twist that might be a huge problem.

 

[Lavani]

Return to theorycraft land from someone who plays neither of the following characters (feel free to tell me how wrong I am)!

I was thinking about characters who can fight Bayonetta, and someone a while back brought up Mewtwo as a potential good choice by virtue of having a strong killing projectile, a kill throw, and a strong neutral game, all things to exploit the small holes in Bayonetta's game plan. In practice, we've yet to see Mewtwo really bring it to Bayo, as @!Blue! according to Keitaro has trouble against Bayo. Might be a player thing, might be a character thing, the jury's still out.

However, that description (strong projectile, a kill throw, and a strong neutral game) to some extent describes another character: Lucario. To be fair, Lucario's neutral isn't great. I think competent would be the word I'd use to describe it, but his frame data is still generally better than Bayonetta's on average, and he has a crawl that can go under Bullet Arts Climax. And of course when it comes to getting early kills that's what Lucario's all about.

I think the possible lynchpin against Bayonetta is Force Palm. I haven't labbed it out or anything, but just looking at the data Force Palm vs. Witch Time is interesting because of how Force Palm has two components. The grab won't trigger Witch Time if performed at the same time or a few frames earlier, and similarly, if the grab misses then the projectile portion of Force Palm will not trigger Witch Time, but rather Bat Within (Witch Time ends frame 21, Force Palm blast starts Frame 24), so it can potentially cover both options/get some extra damage by triggering Bat Within.

Of course, Force Palm has really high recovery time, slower than even Bayo's rolls, so she could read the attempt, side step or roll, and punish, but it then becomes a proper guessing game AND you'd be making Bayo use her bad dodge/rolls. Bayonetta also has Witch Twist to beat out attempts at Force Palm.

This might sound a lot like "Lucario beats Sheik!!!" but I think the major difference between is that Sheik has monstrous frame data, and a really good Sheik if played optimally will give Lucario very few chances to get in. Bayonetta is nowhere near that threatening. Also, unlike Mewtwo, Lucario isn't made of papier mache so he has a firm chance to get to high percents and do his Aura thing.

Adding to this line of thought, from what I've seen watching tournament sets if Bayo can't ceiling carry or land a smash her opponents seem to live to rather high percents. I don't know how the matchup actually plays out, but I can see merit to the theory.

An important factor may be whatever factor of Lucario's physics which makes him have severe difficulty escaping boost kick, because if he is one of a few characters unable to SDI witch twist that might be a huge problem.

No problems on that front.

I haven't tried fatties yet, but the only character-related issues I've had SDIing out of Witch Twist were with Rosalina (tall height + awkward hitstun animation sometimes gets her head clipped by the last hit even if she does escape)

 

[Wtfwasthat]

warios bite is an amazing tool against bayonetta, figure id throw that out there

 

[Ghostbone]

Given the nature of Bayonetta's combos, it's not completely infeasible to imagine good (S)DI from the opponent making her miss the followup hit and then get smacked offstage without one or more of her Twists, Kicks, or double jump. (And heaven help you if you already burned both Twists.) Although this probably falls under the vague umbrella of "human error" aka "don't play stupid".

You know she gets back her side-b and up-b whenever she's hit right lol.

However, that description (strong projectile, a kill throw, and a strong neutral game) to some extent describes another character: Lucario. To be fair, Lucario's neutral isn't great. I think competent would be the word I'd use to describe it, but his frame data is still generally better than Bayonetta's on average, and he has a crawl that can go under Bullet Arts Climax. And of course when it comes to getting early kills that's what Lucario's all about.

Played this matchup, Lucario does ok vs Bayonetta, better than you'd probably expect him to do against a top 3 character I guess (though he probably does even better vs Sheik lol), but it's still bayonetta's favour because her neutral is so much better than lucario's, sometimes she gets early death combos that negate aura, and she bodies lucario's recovery for free.

 

[Greward]

Bayonetta does have a good neutral. She can outcamp with way superior mobility + bullet stuff and aerial side b is one of the safest approachs in the game (with a huge reward to top it off). She's not sheik, but it's not a bad neutral.

While she's tall, she also has the thinnest hitbox which makes her evade some moves and sometimes gets out of multihits because of that virtue. She makes me remember of launch greninja. Being tall makes her more vulnerable to projectiles but also has that aerial side b which is deadly against most standing projectiles. She can also camp with full hop nairs because it shoots diagonally down, but there's not so much damage.

warios bite is an amazing tool against bayonetta, figure id throw that out there

Wario bite is probably the best command grab out there for witch time. Wario shouldn't do too bad in the matchup. Bike beeing a free witch time doesn't help though.

 

[Y2Kay]

Adding to this line of thought, from what I've seen watching tournament sets if Bayo can't ceiling carry or land a smash her opponents seem to live to rather high percents.

I can attest to this. When I play defensively and out of her face, I've been able to live till up to 190%*

* Granted this is a one time event. However, the guy was a Gold ranked player on Anther's in a ranked set. It's usually 140-150%

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Regarding the Link Discussion:
http://smashboards.com/rankings/super-smash-con-wii-u-singles-top-128.8153/event?id=8

Those are the Smash Con results for Top 128. A Link main (Rooky) made Top 32 [He beat VGBC | Logic in bracket]. He also consistently places in locals where @Pugwest and Marss attend.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/church-of-smash-xvii-boston-ma-smash-4-weekly.10825/event
(unfortunately not all are uploaded to Smashboards)

Pugwest will know much more about Rooky's skill and what Rooky would have to improve on than I know at the moment. But as far as Link's go, Rooky is the one I'm keeping my eye on.

Rooky is one of my best friends and without question the best Link I've ever seen. Playing against him so much makes me actually read Radical Larry's posts.

With that said certain matchups are very difficult for him. Foxes, Sonics, and good shieks are obvious roadblocks for the character. He also struggles against Pugwest's Marth and I'm not convinced it's simply because Pug is better. I've never seen him play Marrs.

He's picking up Bayo to cover certain matchups. But Link's really underrated, real talk. People always default to "nope bad at point blank, he sucks," without understanding how difficult weaving through the projectile onslaught while also avoiding the grab and other mid range options is for most characters against a top Link. Plus once you're up close if you guess wrong you're pushed out again.

Add that he's got a very good disadvantage and recovery for that weight due to the fall speed, nair and dair with projectile combo breakers and up b bomb jump up b respectively and theres a lot less wrong with the character than people generally think.

And speaking of my region Marth is ridiculously underrated as well. The last patch upped his power and disjoint to a point that's just scary in the hands of someone who knows the character such as Pugwest. His setups are way more reliable too. Edgeguarding is now even better than before.

And while I'm doing this shout outs to Raffi's Rob and Ice Arrow's Greninja consistently doing work too. Boston players don't sleep on any of these characters at this point.

 

[Ghostbone]

People assume that 150% is a high % when it isn't, Bayo can do like 50% per hit so she still kills you in less hits from neutral than you do even if you live 50% longer.

 

[momochuu]

when people say things like Bayonetta having a bad neutral, I'm not sure they actually know what neutral is. just because she isn't ****ting out 11% damage off of unseeable projectiles or something similar doesn't mean she has a bad neutral. she's incredibly hard to hit because of her mobility, almost everything leads into huge damage, and most of her moves are safe on block.

 

[Smog Frog]

isnt exactly mobile lol. ties with for run speed and is between for air speed, and doesnt have notably good acceleration.

she has burst mobility which you can shield and punish.

 

[Ghostbone]

isnt exactly mobile lol. ties with for run speed and is between for air speed, and doesnt have notably good acceleration.

she has burst mobility which you can shield and punish.

Mobility through specials still counts as mobility lmao.
If you really think it's as easy to catch a bayo as it is to catch a bowser in the air, idk what to say. Bayo has the mobility to escape most juggles and to punish you from far away, that's what matters.

And no, you can't "shield and punish" witch twist, side-b, or divekick, they don't have enough lag and put her too far away from you.

 

[Pazzo.]

I remember someone pointing out that Bayonetta doesn't have a neutral game, only strong advantages and disadvantages.

Of course one has to get to the angels to slay 'em, but the games emphasize combos and creating them.

It's interesting to note that in SSB4, this has been retained.

 

[Tri Knight]

Rooky is one of my best friends and without question the best Link I've ever seen. Playing against him so much makes me actually read Radical Larry's posts.

With that said certain matchups are very difficult for him. Foxes and good shieks are obvious roadblocks for the character. He also struggles against Pugwest's Marth and I'm not convinced it's simply because Pug is better. I've never seen him play Marrs.

He's picking up Bayo to cover certain matchups. But Link's really underrated, real talk. People always default to "nope bad at point blank, he sucks," without understanding how difficult weaving through the projectile onslaught while also avoiding the grab and other mid range options is for most characters against a top Link. Plus once you're up close if you guess wrong you're pushed out again.

Add that he's got a very good disadvantage and recovery for that weight due to the fall speed, nair and dair with projectile combo breakers and up b bomb jump up b respectively and theres a lot less wrong with the character than people generally think.

And speaking of my region Marth is ridiculously underrated too. The last patch upped his power and disjoint to a point that's just scary in the hands of someone who knows the character such as Pugwest. His setups are way more reliable too. Edgeguarding is now even better than before.

And while I'm doing this shout outs to Raffi's Rob and Ice Arrow's Greninja consistently doing work too. Boston players don't sleep on any of these characters at this point.

Not to mention Link's got incredible reach with his sword on all of his attacks. His outstanding weakness is just his lack of any fast attacks in cq and his inability to get out of combos. Thats why cqc warriors like Fox can do a number on him. Luckily hes a tank. Can take a lot of hits and has a great recovery. He also edgeguards very well too which nobody ever seems to acknowledge.

Agreed, yes he's very underrated right now according to our tier list. I mean look at troopers like Izaw recently putting in some fantastic work with Link. Never thought he deserved low tier. He definitely falls somewhere in mid tier, easy. But I could never call him high tier. At least not yet. I just can't see it yet...

Lots of perceived weak characters doing some work lately it seems. The weather must be just right.