Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[19_]

Mew^2 over Mew2King triple 2-stock.

Ahhhhahahahaha.

But to be thread-relevant, that was very much a case of Mew2King not being ready for Mewtwo's strong edgeguarding + Cloud being easily edgeguarded.

ANOTHER ONE

m2k double eliminated by a MEWTWO

 

[meleebrawler]

ANOTHER ONE

m2k double eliminated by a MEWTWO

Mewtwo Strikes Back... literally.

Edit: The same Mewtwo, in case there's any Confusion (see what I did there).

 

[FullMoon]

@Asdioh
Umm I don't think Luigi is below Greninja. Although Luigi doesn't get the highest results at nationals and such, he still does solidly at locals and he has a good number of people still representing the character. His results overall are still better than Greninja, who has yet to prove his viability in NA nationals such as TBH, Paragon, EVO, etc etc etc.

Over time, this may change as Greninja mains perfect their footstool combos and such, but for now Greninja does not have enough tournament data to place him above Luigi (this is coming from a Luigi main who doesn't have the most optimistic view about Luigi's future in the meta).

What has Luigi gotten since the nerfs though? Legit question since I don't know. As far as locals go, Venia consistently places high at Nebulous, iStudying I think always gets top 3 at Avalon (or is that a regional? I don't even know) and while Some is inconsistent, he still gets good results in a stacked region. I also place high in the tournaments I go to but that's Brazil.

I think Greninja has been showing a level of consistency that could place him above Luigi.

 

[bc1910]

This is such a good day for the Pokemon lol.

@Asdioh
Umm I don't think Luigi is below Greninja. Although Luigi doesn't get the highest results at nationals and such, he still does solidly at locals and he has a good number of people still representing the character. His results overall are still better than Greninja, who has yet to prove his viability in NA nationals such as TBH, Paragon, EVO, etc etc etc.

Over time, this may change as Greninja mains perfect their footstool combos and such, but for now Greninja does not have enough tournament data to place him above Luigi (this is coming from a Luigi main who doesn't have the most optimistic view about Luigi's future in the meta).

What are Luigi's best recent results? Genuine question as I don't follow the character. I'm inclined to believe Greninja has done better lately for the reasons FullMoon said.

 

[R3D3MON]

bc1910 and FullMoon
Con con has been getting consistently good results at big SoCal regionals. As far as nationals go, Denti used a bit of Luigi during Pax Arena South. To be honest I have not been extensively tracking tournament results lately, but I was basing my statement on Luigi's past performances (which are ofc before the nerf), especially at TBH5. However, I do realize that Luigi's results after the nerf has been drastically less significant. For example Boss has been unable to dominate the MDVA region after the nerf. This is even more true after the introduction of "challengers" in the Xanadu tournament series.

Do note that I think Luigi's nerf means that his presence in the meta will decrease more and more as time goes on, and I think Greninja may increase over time since the character still has room for his punish game to be optimized fully (namely the footstool combos, which I used to think was not very practical. Glad I was wrong :D).

 

[Twizman]

DK to move up the tier list? DKWill just won Bit Wars 4. A few days ago at SC52 Riot played amazingly well, making it to Grand Finals going down to Ryo's Corrin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZukqoZJEN88.

 

[Phan7om]

I have to make an appearance on page 69

I also find it interesting how quick tier opinions of characters shift after an unexpected performance

Just a thought

 

[Mario766]

Because the one main reason characters weren't getting put higher..

Was because of results.

 

[Charoite]

Actually Vex another has placing top 8 in various tournaments

 

[Monete]

Either way, it's fair to say Greninja is competing with the likes of TL and Lucario for tier spots and not the likes of Mega Man and Olimar.

Greward won 3-0 Istudying in dat blast zone 7 placing second only losing to Mr r.

Scatt was 4th at tipped of 11 and 7th at MLG finals.

Megaman has a biggest problem in Sheik than Greninja

Greninja is better than Olimar tho who only has Myran and Angbad developing him now that Rich Brown uses Rosa i think.

 

[L9999]

I have to make an appearance on page 69

I also find it interesting how quick tier opinions of characters shift after an unexpected performance

Just a thought

Remember when Pac-Man was the fashion and everyone was discussing him? Sniff, so much time after that and I haven't heard 2 craps about Pac-Man. Remember when Ness was getting the overrated card because FOW vanished from majors and the moment FOW returns everyone is like "Ness is good after all blah blah blah" and all the comments of "random Ness beats up Salem/Bayonetta player." Remember when Toon Link and Meta Knight were unpopular until México made them popular? Results matter when there are 58 freaking characters.

 

[Charoite]

Greward won 3-0 Istudying in dat blast zone 7 placing second only losing to Mr r.

Scatt was 4th at tipped of 11 and 7th at MLG finals.

Megaman has a biggest problem in Sheik than Greninja

Greninja is better than Olimar tho who only has Myran and Angbad developing him now that Rich Brown uses Rosa i think.

Rich Brown now is maining

 

[Nobie]

Greward won 3-0 Istudying in dat blast zone 7 placing second only losing to Mr r.

Scatt was 4th at tipped of 11 and 7th at MLG finals.

Megaman has a biggest problem in Sheik than Greninja

Greninja is better than Olimar tho who only has Myran and Angbad developing him now that Rich Brown uses Rosa i think.

Relevant to the past two pages, Rich Brown is a Mewtwo now.

Edit:

 

[deepseadiva]

Careful with all the abrupt Peach slander.

Imma be in here next month makin my own callout posts when Kie or Slayers get their own free losers bracket to plow through WATCH!!!!

 

[bc1910]

Mega Man seems to have been quiet for a while. And Greward's performance today was less than stellar (which is a shame since I really like him as a player). Incidentally, Luigi also had a fairly poor showing with Luigi Player and Jmiller getting knocked out early, which is again sad since they're both great players.

I have to make an appearance on page 69

I also find it interesting how quick tier opinions of characters shift after an unexpected performance

Just a thought

I do agree with you on this. Opinions swing very quickly in this game.

It's happened with many characters before Greninja though and I'm sure it'll happen with many characters after so I'm just gonna enjoy it to the fullest right now lol.

 

[Luig]

I have to make an appearance on page 69

I also find it interesting how quick tier opinions of characters shift after an unexpected performance

Just a thought

That's really just what happens in a (semi) early metagame. People are more open to suggestions.

 

[L9999]

Careful with all the abrupt Peach slander.

Imma be in here next month makin my own callout posts when Kie or Slayers get their own free losers bracket to plow through WATCH!!!!

I know he posted a video doing the Sheik infinite and I saw a video of him VS 9B (oh the memories), but Kie plays Smash 4 for real? All Peach I hear from Japan is Umeki.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@Slayerz_
Do you think Peach is a meme like others say?(I personally don't, as I doubt some who say that, truly know what they are talking about)
I think she still could do something to surprise everyone, she's still untapped, but quite sadly, few are willing to dedicate so much time to her. I do see why considering her unbelievably high learning curve/reward for it may seem.......questionable.

Watching @EOE and his channel shows so much stuff she CAN do, but people aren't aware of it until they actually SEE her pull it off.
I believe after like........idk 3,4 or maybe even 5 years, we will see(Hopefully) people fear all she can do and that the princess Toadstool IS THE BEAST.
KICKING BUTTS WITH HER HEELS AND SLAPPING PEOPLE WITH HER CROWN, AND USE HER BOOTY FOR EVERYTHING.........sorry got carried away.
Well, carry on

 

[Charoite]

There are 58 characters in this game, and because the majority of them is in a limbo zone(upper mid to low high tier) is difficult to rank them with only theory, so we use results, but the majority of them can't go to all the tournaments so you dont have consistent results.

Hell aside from , nobody in this game has consistent results.

 

[juddy96]

Dunno, I heard him say 65th in one of the Yoshi groups. Might've got it wrong along with zude?

Zudenka and Yikarur got 33rd. Cyfersquad and PidgeY got 49th.

 

[Monete]

Mega Man seems to have been quiet for a while. And Greward's performance today was less than stellar (which is a shame since I really like him as a player)

?
Greward was in Spain, he coulnt go to BEAST 6

 

[bc1910]

M Monete Sorry about that - someone fed me dud info about Greward not getting out of pools. Which was technically correct, but Greward was perhaps hindered by not even being at the tournament

So what do you guys think of right now? It does seem that Fatality is the only Falcon getting results, though his results are really solid. Is Falcon still easily top 20 or is he slowly being edged out by Toon Link and friends?

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm just hesitant to believe any carry-over narratives from Brawl. As if there weren't MASSIVE changes that affected Peach.

Like her ability to KILL now.
Like MK being DELETED from her match ups.
Like her giant ass fsmash being CONTROLLABLE now.
Like Mr Saturn being buffed into an instant shield break.

And like always, float will forever be the craziest mixup tool.

Sheik is always gonna be a ceiling for all high tiers so I'm hesitant to call any of them garbage.

 

[L9999]

M Monete Sorry about that - someone fed me dud info about Greward not getting out of pools. Which was technically correct, but Greward was perhaps hindered by not even being at the tournament

So what do you guys think of right now? It does seem that Fatality is the only Falcon getting results, though his results are really solid. Is Falcon still easily top 20 or is he slowly being edged out by Toon Link and friends?

IMO he is out of top 20 by this point. competes against() and of course of which 3 hard counter Falcon.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You know a game has good character variety when everyone has way differant opinons on high tier. I personally think Lucario and Toon Link are the worst high tiers (27 and 28).

 

[Chuva]

Before anything, let me start by saying I live in a region dominated by two Greninja overlords, so I do know very well what the character is capable of and always found silly people putting him anywhere below top 20 (although understandable from a results point of view)

With that said, both MVD and ESAM looked completely lost in the matchup. They disrespected Frog's landing trap potential and reacted poorly to Dtilt and Nair setups, insisting on air-dodging instead of jumping or even resetting with Monkey Flip and Quick Attack. Just compare to how Mr R was doing Bouncing Fish whenever he was on a juggle situation. iStudying was on point and congratulations for him, but I'd love to see a rematch with proper matchup knowledge.

Heck, even the commentators were getting overhyped by some very mundane Greninja stuff (Dair bounce on substitute dummy...)

It's Toon Link all over again

 

[juddy96]

Before anything, let me start by saying I live in a region dominated by two Greninja overlords, so I do know very well what the character is capable of and always found silly people putting him anywhere below top 20 (although understandable from a results point of view)

With that said, both MVD and ESAM looked completely lost in the matchup. They disrespected Frog's landing trap potential and reacted poorly to Dtilt and Nair setups, insisting on air-dodging instead of jumping or even resetting with Monkey Flip and Quick Attack. Just compare to how Mr R was doing Bouncing Fish whenever he was on a juggle situation. iStudying was on point and congratulations for him, but I'd love to see a rematch with proper matchup knowledge.

Heck, even the commentators were getting overhyped by some very mundane Greninja stuff (Dair bounce on substitute dummy...)

It's Toon Link all over again

In a game as varied as this one, sometimes knowing the game is just as important as playing the game, in terms of how good you are as a player.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Well today changed the smash 4 meta game for the better

 

[FullMoon]

Before anything, let me start by saying I live in a region dominated by two Greninja overlords, so I do know very well what the character is capable of and always found silly people putting him anywhere below top 20 (although understandable from a results point of view)

I wouldn't go as far as saying dominating, but I'm guessing one of those is me lol.

With that said, both MVD and ESAM looked completely lost in the matchup. They disrespected Frog's landing trap potential and reacted poorly to Dtilt and Nair setups, insisting on air-dodging instead of jumping or even resetting with Monkey Flip and Quick Attack. Just compare to how Mr R was doing Bouncing Fish whenever he was on a juggle situation. iStudying was on point and congratulations for him, but I'd love to see a rematch with proper matchup knowledge.

Heck, even the commentators were getting overhyped by some very mundane Greninja stuff (Dair bounce on substitute dummy...)

It's Toon Link all over again

I do feel like MU inexperience had a hand in this, but iStudying did begin losing to both of them in their sets, it looks more like he adapted to what they were doing and they failed to adapt back (ESAM did a little better on that front than MVD), once iStudying began turning things around, that's when they began looking really lost, at least from my perception.

 

[Vipermoon]

Before anything, let me start by saying I live in a region dominated by two Greninja overlords, so I do know very well what the character is capable of and always found silly people putting him anywhere below top 20 (although understandable from a results point of view)

With that said, both MVD and ESAM looked completely lost in the matchup. They disrespected Frog's landing trap potential and reacted poorly to Dtilt and Nair setups, insisting on air-dodging instead of jumping or even resetting with Monkey Flip and Quick Attack. Just compare to how Mr R was doing Bouncing Fish whenever he was on a juggle situation. iStudying was on point and congratulations for him, but I'd love to see a rematch with proper matchup knowledge.

Heck, even the commentators were getting overhyped by some very mundane Greninja stuff (Dair bounce on substitute dummy...)

It's Toon Link all over again

Esam was probably going to win but then he did that extremely stupid Skull Bash in game 4 which caused iStudying to bring it back. This created game 5 and the rest was history.

 

[UberMadman]

Esam was probably going to win but then he did that extremely stupid Skull Bash in game 4 which caused iStudying to bring it back. This created game 5 and the rest was history.

That was a misinput apparently, at least according to his Twitter.

 

[juddy96]

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Cusetown Beatdown 5, 92 entrants. Winner San 2nd Dark Wizzy 3rd Cassius

 

[Charoite]

Esam choked, iStudying simply took advantage of that, MU inexperience is a factor, but not a big one remember this was Bo5 with 3 stocks, that is plenty of time to adapt, from both sides, because i doubt that iStudying has that much MU experience.

 

[Vipermoon]

That was a misinput apparently, at least according to hiss Twitter.

Then he is forgiven. I thought it was disrespect.

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Kings of Hali, 80 entrants. Winner Croi 2nd Vapor 3rd Sqiddwr

Zinoto and Ryuga beat Dabuz!? Well it looks like Rayquaza literally never beating Zinoto isn't just a personal thing.

 

[Latias]

So Corrin doesn't really have much offstage potential since all of his moves send the opponent upwards and he has a fairly weak recovery. He can do something pretty neat though. Full hop > dair off stage can be recovered from, and if you land it its basically a guaranteed kill if you footstool them after landing it or their recovery is vertically weak.

 

[Luco]

@Ghostbone So you went and made the switch to Bayo eh?

Good stuff to Greninja mains, I'm not sure if this will propel Greninja into crazy new territory, but I think it probably means you'll be seeing a lot less "Greninja is good, but how often does it get results?" posts around at least in the near future. Also has probably allowed more people to understand that character and what is actually giving him trouble as opposed to fake problems people make up for him lawl.

 

[Vipermoon]

So Corrin doesn't really have much offstage potential since all of his moves send the opponent upwards and he has a fairly weak recovery. He can do something pretty neat though. Full hop > dair off stage can be recovered from, and if you land it its basically a guaranteed kill if you footstool them after landing it or their recovery is vertically weak.

I just tried it and you're right. It will only work if you angle the Uspecial backwards (which makes him go straight up for those who don't know). Too bad the max Full Hop requirement makes it super easy to react to.

 

[Charoite]

correct

Zinoto and Ryuga beat Dabuz!? Well it looks like Rayquaza literally never beating Zinoto isn't just a personal thing.

Well Zinoto actually double eliminated Dabuz, Ryuga beat Ally , then Zinoto, and lost in gran finals(loser finals he used , but he threw it in grand finals using a bad , then .

Is interesting because Zinoto has beaten Ally numerous times but in this tournament they didn't fight.

 

[L9999]

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Kings of Hali, 80 entrants. Winner Croi 2nd Vapor 3rd Sqiddwr

Kamui looking good and nice placings from rare characters.

 

[Latias]

I just tried it and you're right. It will only work if you angle the Uspecial backwards (which makes him go straight up for those who don't know). Too bad the max Full Hop requirement makes it super easy to react to,

If the stage has walls like omega onnett you can just do it immediately and recover with DL jump