Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[san.]

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Kings of Hali, 80 entrants. Winner Croi 2nd Vapor 3rd Sqiddwr

http://smashboards.com/threads/upstate-new-york-tournament-thread.255695/page-371#post-20912738 was a regional for central NY and had more than 80 entrants. Wouldn't be surprised if some large biweeklies/monthlies trumped this elsewhere, though, like Texas/international.
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[juddy96]

Esam choked, iStudying simply took advantage of that, MU inexperience is a factor, but not a big one remember this was Bo5 with 3 stocks, that is plenty of time to adapt, from both sides, because i doubt that iStudying has that much MU experience.

#6 in the Netherlands plays Pikachu, he does have MU experience

 

[DE235]

Was the Kings of Hali tournament streamed.

Found it: http://www.twitch.tv/smashbrosnovascotia/v/48821053

 

[juddy96]

http://smashboards.com/threads/upstate-new-york-tournament-thread.255695/page-371#post-20912738 was a regional for central NY and had more than 80 entrants. Wouldn't be surprised if some large biweeklies/monthlies trumped this elsewhere, though, like Texas/international.
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That was the one I couldn't find the bracket for. I had all the other ones. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iNcmlV17RiXGg_j0Axz3rUhUsn-tfB0fXwBPOCSgNM8/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Vipermoon]

correct



Well Zinoto actually double eliminated Dabuz, Ryuga beat Ally , then Zinoto, and lost in gran finals(loser finals he used , but he threw it in grand finals using a bad , then .

Is interesting because Zinoto has beaten Ally numerous times but in this tournament they didn't fight.

LiteralGrill Time for a Zinoto: Dabuz Eliminator article LMAO

 

[Man Li Gi]

Super Bit wars right now DKwill beats Dakpo 3-0 in winners semi finals thoughts?

https://smash.gg/tournament/super-bit-wars-4/brackets/11149/4031/16433

I said this on page 55:
Gonna say it now.....DK don't lose too hard to ZSS. His hardest MU is the Fox and MK. Fox out buttons DK so hard. MK ladder is flexible on DK. ZSS tho is not there. BK is inescapable for DK yes, but with DI and now the Nerf, its super easy to live. Yes ZSS can combo you to hell, but outside of then 0-70% for DK, hits are far and between IMO. They stop comboing and stop hurting while DK can then lay some lumber. ZSS with rage also sucks as getting out of moves become easy.

Call me crazy but the MU is 6:4. In other words, winnable, but play smart.

Also if I see clips of DKWill v Remzi, I'm gonna flip as he wasn't even DI the BK right. DKWill labs a lot but seems not to lab stuff important to the top meta.

Also Vex seems like a better DK to follow IMO.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Looking at the Esam vs. IStudying match for the first time, and all I can say is that both players are incredibly good. It isn't a point against Esam to lose against IStudying, as he is a phenomenal player. However, there were definitely things that esam could have done better. He probably won't lose if they meet in bracket again.

 

[C0rvus]

ESAM definitely has little experience with Greninja, and has been known to underrate him. I have no idea what sort of Pikachu presence there is in Europe, so who knows how much Pika exp iStudying had. I'd like to see the two meet again. Not sure how it would go.

It's also a shame that Ryuga and Dabuz never played. I feel like Rosa/Corrin is a decent MU and to see it play out at high level would be cool. Then we could take a step beyond theory at least.

 

[juddy96]

ESAM definitely has little experience with Greninja, and has been known to underrate him. I have no idea what sort of Pikachu presence there is in Europe, so who knows how much Pika exp iStudying had. I'd like to see the two meet again. Not sure how it would go.

It's also a shame that Ryuga and Dabuz never played. I feel like Rosa/Corrin is a decent MU and to see it play out at high level would be cool. Then we could take a step beyond theory at least.

PikaForLife, the #6 in iStudying's region (Netherlands) plays Pika, he has MU exp

 

[Jaguar360]

Esam choked, iStudying simply took advantage of that, MU inexperience is a factor, but not a big one remember this was Bo5 with 3 stocks, that is plenty of time to adapt, from both sides, because i doubt that iStudying has that much MU experience.

Funnily enough, iStudying just faced PikaForLife last week, who took him to game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvhn4h_rOC0

EDIT: Oh wow, I'm late.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghostbone So you went and made the switch to Bayo eh?

Bayo's super broken, best character in the game
(not sarcasm)

 

[Strong-Arm]

I think Cloud as the meta continues, will have a more difficult time once people figure out how to optimally punish him offstage, get him offstage, and consistently gimp him. Cloud players can try all they want to make his recovery "better" but its still bad in a ton of ways. Its already showing in all honesty.

Another thing just saying but Low tiers are not as bad as low tiers in previous games, they can do damage in the right hands (not saying theyre going to win anything huge) but dont sleep on them.

 

[Charoite]

Bayo's super broken, best character in the game
(not sarcasm)

Interesting, what levels of brokenness are we talking, 64 pikachu, melee fox, brawl MK, or pre-patch diddy or worse that all of them??

 

[Strong-Arm]

Bayonetta honestly has glaring flaws just like Cloud does. Id say give it a bit and people will adapt and optimally deal with her by exploiting her obvious weaknesses.

 

[LiteralGrill]

LiteralGrill Time for a Zinoto: Dabuz Eliminator article LMAO

I can't do the same bit twice for the same player! I got one with the guy who went random, and am trying to contact iStudying though.

 

[Latias]

If the stage has walls like omega onnett you can just do it immediately and recover with DL jump

To add on to this, It means that Cloud is 100% dead when he's off the stage since he doesn't snap, and since it's a multihit it does a pretty good job of 2-framing.

 

[Vipermoon]

To add on to this, It means that Cloud is 100% dead when he's off the stage since he doesn't snap, and since it's a multihit it does a pretty good job of 2-framing.

You can't speak in absolute like that.
-Cloud can do it early and go above the ledge then drift to it.
-If he isn't too far away he can do the double jump Uspecial ledge snap that M2K likes to do.
-In general, he might be able to stall long enough.
-We don't even know if Corrin's Dair can beat Cloud's Uspecial. His Uspecial can beat a lot of stuff. If it trades, he's likely dead though. You can't trade with that Dair.

All of this and all he has to do is see if Corrin Full Hops.

 

[Ffamran]

To add on to this, It means that Cloud is 100% dead when he's off the stage since he doesn't snap, and since it's a multihit it does a pretty good job of 2-framing.

Corrin's Dair itself has 17 active frames and the landing hit has 4. Problem is that I don't think it's disjointed nor are Corrin's legs invincible during it which would be stupid. Climhazzard still hits above Cloud and would probably clip Corrin's legs, however, if Corrin goes to hit behind Cloud...

 

[Lavani]

Problem is that I don't think it's disjointed

It's substantially disjointed.

 

[Ffamran]

It's substantially disjointed.

Fantastic... So... Kirby's Dair being frame 18 with his stubby little leg... feet... things... Kirby has multiple jumps and while having slow air speed has more flexibility of where he uses Dair while Corrin's got only a double jump and average air speed, Kirby gets to guarantee a spike because it has a last hit while Corrin's doesn't, and Kirby's landing lag is better which combined with the landing hit, means Kirby can setup using it, but... yeah... Almost a Cloud Dair and Falco Dair situation... Almost.

 

[Latias]

You can't speak in absolute like that.
-Cloud can do it early and go above the ledge then drift to it.
-If he isn't too far away he can do the double jump Uspecial ledge snap that M2K likes to do.
-In general, he might be able to stall long enough.
-We don't even know if Corrin's Dair can beat Cloud's Uspecial. His Uspecial can beat a lot of stuff. If it trades, he's likely dead though. You can't trade with that Dair.

All of this and all he has to do is see if Corrin Full Hops.

It's mostly for when they're recovering low-ish, and Corrin's dair either trades or beats his upspecial cause I've done it multiple times and never been hit out of it. Could go for more testing though, I guess. Plus the full hop being telegraphed isn't that big of a deal, if he sees it coming he'll probably not be able to recover if you time your full hop right since his recovery is so poor. Plus theres a certain point where you have to up b or you die.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bayonetta honestly has glaring flaws just like Cloud does. Id say give it a bit and people will adapt and optimally deal with her by exploiting her obvious weaknesses.

What actual flaws do you think she has?
Her flaw is her crappy air-dodge, but even then if you get bat within it's the best air-dodge in the game. I guess you could say her recovery without a double jump is bad but that rarely happens, and it's close to the best recovery in the game with a double jump cos witch twist has a really dumb hitbox.

 

[Yonder]

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Cusetown Beatdown 5, 92 entrants. Winner San 2nd Dark Wizzy 3rd Cassius

25 different characters used out of these 90-100+ character tournaments...43% of the roster having some sort of results is truly a nice sight to see. I didn't follow Melee or Brawl much, but how many years was it until their meta game became Fox + 1 or two others/MK centric? This game was released on September 13th 2014 [the 3DS one] ...meta game is still looking good.

I've got to say, that Ganondorf solo win looks the most impressive along with the Greninja due to sheer entrants.

 

[juddy96]

25 different characters used out of these 90-100+ character tournaments...43% of the roster having some sort of results is truly a nice sight to see. I didn't follow Melee or Brawl much, but how many years was it until their meta game became Fox + 1 or two others/MK centric? This game was released on September 13th 2014 [the 3DS one] ...meta game is still looking good.

I've got to say, that Ganondorf solo win looks the most impressive along with the Greninja due to sheer entrants.

And the 11th biggest was won by a (80+ entrants)

 

[Nicole]

The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)

BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R 2nd iStudying 3rd ESAM
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto 2nd Ryuga 3rd Dabuz
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost 2nd Earl 3rd Xettman
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi 2nd Kamizama 3rd Firehao
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss 2nd Koolaid 3rd Pugwest
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality 2nd Player-1 3rd Sol
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast 2nd Dexter 3rd Triple R
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill 2nd Mew^2 3rd Mew2King
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew 2nd SaSSy 3rd Jerm
Cusetown Beatdown 5, 92 entrants. Winner San 2nd Dark Wizzy 3rd Cassius

Eaux @ u forgetting St Louis!

Bert's Bi Monthly: SYHO, 78 entrants. Winner Fye 2nd Flow-Yo 3rd SM_Strat

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-your-heart-out-top-32.11946/event

Get into it gurls!

 

[bc1910]

istudy had a reasonable amount more MU exp than ESAM but no other Pika is really on the level of ESAM and NAKAT. Wouldn't have been surprised at all to see him clutch it out.

Esam was probably going to win but then he did that extremely stupid Skull Bash in game 4 which caused iStudying to bring it back. This created game 5 and the rest was history.

To be fair you could also say this about istudy getting thunderspiked game 1 because he went for the Hydro Pump. He'd most likely have taken that game otherwise.

Mr R knew the MU inside and out, no question. I also think istudy was totally drained of MP after his set against ESAM and didn't play as well as he could've as he's taken plenty of games off Mr R. Not saying he would have won a set but the MU doesn't normally look THAT hopeless. Mr R guessed right in probably 80-90% of the 50/50s which can even things out.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Eaux @ u forgetting St Louis!

Bert's Bi Monthly: SYHO, 78 entrants. Winner Fye 2nd Flow-Yo 3rd SM_Strat

http://smashboards.com/rankings/smash-your-heart-out-top-32.11946/event

Get into it gurls!

Bruh, how you been doing after HoP 8?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think now would be a perfect time to point out how laughably low Diddy Kong is on the tier list. The fact that Ryu, Pikachu and Mario have been placed above him almost seems to be an oversight beause there's no way that anybody could 'objectively' argue them to be better.

Here's a few things worth pointing out:
* Zinoto has double elminiated dabuz this weekend alongside having a consistent winning record against Rayquaza, hopefully laying the claim that Rosalina counters Diddy to rest for good. I wonder how @Dabuz feels about the matchup, I can't imagine it being better than even from Rosalina's point of view.
* Diddy Kong has a notieable winning record against Zero Suit Samus and Ryu, the former being partiularly significant in the metagame.
* The only charater that Diddy has a [slight] losing record against is Fox though it's somewhat debateable whether Fox atually wins the matchup or not.
* MK players seem to argue mostly that Diddy has a slight edge against them from what I've gathered.
* No signifiant results against Sonic, Pikachu, Mario or Villager but it seems unlikely that any of those character have the advantage against Diddy.
* Claims that Diddy loses to Luigi are not backed up by results though it's entirely possible.
* Diddy is generally seen as the character with the second best neutral/ground game after Sheik.
* Diddy's even record against Sheik is distorted by Zero opting to avoid Sheik dittos. The matchup is probably not actually even but since Diddy doesn't seem to do worse vs Sheik than ZSS or Rosalina do, it's unlikely to put Diddy's rightful place among the top 4 up to debate.

Even if we take the 'pessimistic' approach and lowball on some of Diddy's matchups for the sake of the argument it's still a very impressive spread:

40/60:
45/55:
50/50:
55/45:
60/40:

I don't see how a character with that matchup spread can be as low as 9th on a tier list that lays claim on being a [at least somewhat] professional representation of the competitive metagame. That's easily top 4 material and if people didn't just take ZSS at 2nd and Rosalina as 3rd for granted as much as they do ... we might actually be talking about the possibility of this character being potentially #2.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

People just seem to ignore diddy's strengths after the NERF. He still has a great stage controlling tool and can get good damage out of combos. Hoo hah isn't everything he had. In my opinion, he is potentially top 5, if not at least 6th place. He beats Ryu and goes even with Mario. With zinoto, I'd say we should re examine Diddy

 

[Safariwisserin]

I'll repost my thread here. I dont quite get why the mods want everything to be discussed in one place at a time (sounds chaotic to me) but here you go:

First of all, i do not think Cloud is overpowered in general. He is a very good character, but at least in 1v1 you can see his downsides, especially because of his mediocre recovery.

In doubles though, his chance to hit with limit downB grows immense. All what it takes is one throw from the teampartner and i assume it is even a bit more common to get a grab in doubles than in singles. It does not even necessarily need a throw, any other attack, especially a jab, can lead to the limit downB. Also, it seems easier to charge the limit.

Players understood that strength coming from that and so we see more and more teams with cloud coming through. Because of that, it seems like we getting from "Doubles" to "Cloud-with-support-matches".

I would be glad to hear your opinion regarding that. How bad is it? Is there a need to think about a ban similar to the GaW&Sheik combo? Or are there chances for it to be just a temporary phenomen that people will overcome with some kind of adaption?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'd put him at 4th. Don't forget he is Sheik's "Worst" (Least bad or even matchup) matchup. It's probably 50:50.

The ONLY excuse for him not being in at least 5th is because of Diddy mains being really salty. MVD is so salty that he suggests Diddy isn't even top ten.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Safariwisserin
This is true, I saw yesterday in doubles that most kills were finishing touches with supports. However, I think people will be able to adapt. I really wouldn't want doubles to be a cloud with support team. People never use the Monado Kirby strategy, I wonder why?

 

[Luco]

Felt for a long time that Diddy is under-represented and would be the most likely candidate for spots #4 or #5 along with Meta Knight.

Also feeling like the tier list has done so much for this thread and its community because we're arguing exact positions now rather than 'top x', and talking about 'above/below a, b and c' as opposed to 'probably around the level of a, b and c'. Random time to mention that, but it came to mind after reading Gheb's post.

Still can't say for sure how I feel about Bayo, but something that nags at me is how well she deals with characters that don't have to respect WT and 0-death combos with guaranteed stuff out of grabs (thinking about peeps like Luigi, Mewtwo etc, but not sure if that's just theory or whether it will manifest itself as a legitimate thing over time. Also still not entirely convinced that Ness beats Bayo just yet). She's still scary even with those strengths mitigated but SH Bair and F/Dthrow feel a lot less controlling and dominant than WT and combos.

Megamang Sorry for the late response, I've been thinking about what you mentioned and I feel like although the thread can move slowly and it's nice to catalogue our thoughts here, I'm not entirely sure a Discord chat would really hinder that. I've had private chats with people in this thread before and often the content they bring up in those chats often gets put into this thread, usually just a little more refined. I dunno, I kinda think it'd be cool.

 

[L9999]

I'd put him at 4th. Don't forget he is Sheik's "Worst" (Least bad or even matchup) matchup. It's probably 50:50.

The ONLY excuse for him not being in at least 5th is because of Diddy mains being really salty. MVD is so salty that he suggests Diddy isn't even top ten.

Reminds me of the time ZeRo was saying "Diddy mid-tier" and top players and mid players alike pissing on Diddy. With patches people exagerrate.

Safariwisserin
This is true, I saw yesterday in doubles that most kills were finishing touches with supports. However, I think people will be able to adapt. I really wouldn't want doubles to be a cloud with support team. People never use the Monado Kirby strategy, I wonder why?

That would require a Kirby and a Shulk player. They are hard to come by....

 

[Megamang]

How do you adapt to being killed whenever the cloud executes properly after you get jabbed, thrown, or even mildly set up?


Anyways, as far as Megaman MU against the top and high tiers, I really appreciate Diddys place in the meta. He helps clean the bracket of shieks and captain falcons, while being an easier MU than most of his companions (regardless of him being placed where he is on the 4BR list or in this hypothetical top 5). Lemons eat bananas, stop Monkey Flip (well, stalls it immensely while you have time to react) and generally help dominate the ground game. Good mobile lemoning will keep the banana pretty useless in neutral, relegating it to OoS usage and maybe landing traps.

Metal blade and leaf shield, and to a lesser extent crash bomber, all set up for grabs. A quick chuck offstage and you are in a nice 50/50esque situation where the proper read will net you a bair (which is fairly big and disjointed, meaning with proper spacing it beats fair AND monkey flip). As he goes above you, uair racks damage very well since Diddy has pretty bad horizontal mobility when he isn't monkey flipping. Getting a banana out just to B-reverse a monkey flip is risky business, since in the MU a proper mega is probably not getting hit much with the nana while it is deadly in his hands. Forward glide toss u-tilt confirms a kill well before Diddy can hope to kill Mega. Long range bananas can lead to f-smashes, especially if Diddy doesn't have room to roll backwards.

Mega's weight is a nice boon in any MU, but especially in this MU when we now see that Diddy gets all his kills from d-tilt usmash or glide toss fsmash. His heavyness doesn't open up any confirms, just lets him survive more. Pellet dominance can pop diddy offstage (ftilt ftilt nair combos if you are approaching, aka megaman knocks you offstage if he hits with an approaching pellet... which isn't a commitment at all because he can retreating jump right out of it).

Having a good jab is really great against leaf shield pressure, and Diddy doesn't... I just keep adding these as I think of them, its really one of those MUs where a mid tier ( I think he is higher, but admittedly I haven't made a tier list) has strengths and weaknesses that line up really well with an ostensibly superior character.

Mega doesn't like really powerful smashes or good safe/consistent horizontal gimping tools (ughhhh bouncing fish) and Diddy doesn't excel here.

Sometimes, you get read and dair'd back into Rush Coil and its nice =D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cloud is definitely a problem in doubles but I don't think there's much that will happen. You can't exactly nerf his limit techs without completely ruining this character's concept.

MVD is so salty that he suggests Diddy isn't even top ten.

MVD has this weird history of ****talking his main characters ever since he became a renowned player in Brawl though.

 

[Megamang]

Thats not only MVD, when you play characters you tend to really feel their weaknesses and underestimate their strength/equate their strength to your skill only.

Land a bouncing fish? You're probably thinking about how it was a good button press, solid read, conditioning. Get hit with a bouncing fish? ****ing ridiculous move with ridiculous priority.

Its like when shiek mains come in and say that have 50:50s with Lucario and Kirby.

Then when you get below high tier, the mains tend to overestimate their characters (except when they play a high level high tier, then you really feel your weaknesses).

I call it... smash :B

 

[HoSmash4]

Cloud is definitely a problem in doubles but I don't think there's much that will happen. You can't exactly nerf his limit techs without completely ruining this character's concept.



MVD has this weird history of ****talking his main characters ever since he became a renowned player in Brawl though.

Cloud is getting boring to watch in doubles, but thats just my $0.02 that a lot of people might or may not agree with.

Bit late to the party because I didnt have time but iStudying is godlike and i think thats more of a testament to himself. rather than implying Greninja's high tier viability. So many many good reads combined with greninja's combo ability and comeback factor

 

[PND]

Thats not only MVD, when you play characters you tend to really feel their weaknesses and underestimate their strength/equate their strength to your skill only.

Land a bouncing fish? You're probably thinking about how it was a good button press, solid read, conditioning. Get hit with a bouncing fish? ****ing ridiculous move with ridiculous priority.

Its like when shiek mains come in and say that have 50:50s with Lucario and Kirby.

Then when you get below high tier, the mains tend to overestimate their characters (except when they play a high level high tier, then you really feel your weaknesses).

I call it... smash :B

Ah, the old adage.

You can tell if a character is bad in Smash because their mains are desperate to prove that they are good.
You can tell if a character is good in Smash when their mains are desperate to convince you that they are not.

. . .
Don't put too much stock in this saying though, I first heard it back in the Brawl days and it falls apart under scrutiny. I just find it humorous.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What actual flaws do you think she has?
Her flaw is her crappy air-dodge, but even then if you get bat within it's the best air-dodge in the game. I guess you could say her recovery without a double jump is bad but that rarely happens, and it's close to the best recovery in the game with a double jump cos witch twist has a really dumb hitbox.

Given the nature of Bayonetta's combos, it's not completely infeasible to imagine good (S)DI from the opponent making her miss the followup hit and then get smacked offstage without one or more of her Twists, Kicks, or double jump. (And heaven help you if you already burned both Twists.) Although this probably falls under the vague umbrella of "human error" aka "don't play stupid".

But seriously, Witch Twist by itself is Little Mac tier recovery.