Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Peppermint1201]

greninja's damage is absurd. you can never count him out of a match. i've posted that at least twice in these threads and nobody wanted to believe.

Yeah, I would definitely say that was what alarmed me the most watching iStudying. A lot of his big wins were in matches where he was mostly at a deficit.

 

[bc1910]

Any character capable of a podium finish at a major has shown themselves to be solo viable.

Bear in mind that Mr R knows the MU inside and out, and is probably still a more experienced player than istudying despite how amazing istudying clearly is. Mr R guessed right in almost all of the 50/50 situations istudying put him in; I think he was outreading him by the end.

I'm not saying Sheik isn't a massive roadblock, but if it takes a Sheik of Mr R's caliber to stop a good Greninja then the future still looks bright for the character.

 

[Y2Kay]

Dude What is this crap.. You character loyalists are really annoying.

Anyways props to istudying seems like a great guy. You could tell how much it meant to him he was crying after beating esam

Jeez, your late

I already recanted on this five minutes ago

 

[ARGHETH]

My bad. Didn't mean to come off that way.

I got the last laugh and got carried away I guess.....

Carried away? That's quite the understatement. You posted a gigantic rant about a high level smasher who said he didn't think Greninja was good back in August, when he had, like, no results.

 

[Charoite]

There another tournament right n now, sol wins against fatality, but i dont know if he used . This is the bracket:

https://smash.gg/tournament/kings-of-the-south-2-1k-pot-bonus/brackets/11114/3948/16206

 

[Andyomon00]

Hey guys, Do you think with the success of istudying we will see the further meta development of mid to low tier characters?

 

[Y2Kay]

Carried away? That's quite the understatement. You posted a gigantic rant about a high level smasher who said he didn't think Greninja was good back in August, when he had, like, no results.

It wasn't giant rant, what are you talking about?

I already apologized

 

[Peppermint1201]

Look I wasn't a big fan of MewtwoChainz' ESAM diss either but he apologized and moved on. Don't keep bothering him about it.

 

[NegaNixx]

What makes the matchup so bad? I was watching B6 as I got ready for work, didn't get a chance to look at the ins and outs, but what gives Sheik such an advantage?

Good Job to iStudying though.

 

[Illusion.]

If you're actually offended by what Mewtwo-Chainz said...

Grow some balls, it's the Internet. He only made a harmless joke.

 

[FullMoon]

What makes the matchup so bad? I was watching B6 as I got ready for work, didn't get a chance to look at the ins and outs, but what gives Sheik such an advantage?

Good Job to iStudying though.

Greninja is forced to approach and he can't approach because his frame data is bad against a character that can just slap him across the screen with gigantic range while also being nearly impossible to edgeguard.

What do?

That's basically the tl;dr version of it.

 

[Illusion.]

What makes the matchup so bad? I was watching B6 as I got ready for work, didn't get a chance to look at the ins and outs, but what gives Sheik such an advantage?

Good Job to iStudying though.

She has a better projectile, way better frame data, near ungimpable recovery, better combo game, better punish game... basically everything she has is better than what we have, besides mobility and damage output.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja has four main strengths he utilizes to win games:

• High damaging combos
• shuriken zoning
• crazy good mobility
• Edgeguarding

Sheik is the only character in the cast that has an answer to all four of his best traits

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Any character capable of a podium finish at a major has shown themselves to be solo viable.

Bear in mind that Mr R knows the MU inside and out, and is probably still a more experienced player than istudying despite how amazing istudying clearly is. Mr R guessed right in almost all of the 50/50 situations istudying put him in; I think he was outreading him by the end.

I'm not saying Sheik isn't a massive roadblock, but if it takes a Sheik of Mr R's caliber to stop a good Greninja then the future still looks bright for the character.

Except Some is also constantly eliminated by sheik as well. Not like us mains aren't becoming more efficient as well...... Fatality can beat sheiks too, but as soon as he faces vinnie, mr. R, zero, or void he gets rekt. Don't try to overhype this character just because he placed 2nd at a mini major or whatever when at the end of the day he gets invalidated by sheik at Top Level. Do I think greninja is too low on the tier list? YES he is, this character is better then most of the mid tiers like R.O.B, Wario etc. but if you look at it this way; and struggle with sheik, however greninja seems like he is the only one that seem to not have any other top tier roadblocks hence why I believe Greninjs should be higher. Peach, the pits, and definitely toon link all have claims of potentially being better then greninja as well if they weren't already.

 

[Y2Kay]

IMO are the top competitiors for the 15th spot. All of them can make a case for having that spot

 

[L9999]

Dear Smash Community,

First of all, how are you doing today? I'm doing wonderful! I come with grave news, however. Greninja has gotten top 8 at a national, how unfortunate! To add on, He's beaten your beloved MVD and ESAM! All the days you Greninja had no results has finally come to an end! Granted, this has never been true, but facts aren't really your strongsuit . At first, when you said that, you looked stupid in front of greninja mains. But now, you look REALLY stupid in front of EVERYONE. It's sucks, I know.

SHUTUP PLEASE

Sincerely,
The Village Hidden in the Pond ◥ θ┴θ◤​

ON ANOTHER NOTE!
​

ESAM has always been a really big greninja hater.I even got into him about it on stream. He swore up and down that, and I quote, "Greninja is a sh*tty and mediocre character" He said wanting to win tournaments with Greninja was unrealistic.

LET'S ALL LAUGH AT HIS TIER LIST TOGETHER!

View attachment 98066

ROFL ESAM!

Not the most positive hype post but ESAM's tier list is laughable regardless of Greninja talk or not.

 

[Charoite]

i think we are going a bit too much in calling people for their mistakes, he apologized, dont make this any bigger.

 

[Jaguar360]

IMO are the top competitiors for the 15th spot. All of them can make a case for having that spot

Luigi and Wario are probably also contenders (along with Falcon and maybe Yoshi if they weren't counted already). Perhaps Ike as well.

 

[FullMoon]

Doesn't Peach really struggle with Diddy though? I know it's not as bad as struggling against Sheik, but Diddy is not that rare of a character either I think.

 

[deepseadiva]

Not to take away from three pages of "SEE?? WE TOLD YOU!!!" but I wonder if we're entering an era where all the high tier characters finally get sifted to the top. I'm sure we're gonna see other upsets across the board in the coming months now that character mains have had real time and experience.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

IMO are the top competitiors for the 15th spot. All of them can make a case for having that spot.

Care to explain why Peach is mentioned here? She's really not that good a character and her results are definitely worse than those of the other characters you mentioned, both in terms of quality and quantity. Replace her with Ike, add in Yoshi, Falcon and maybe Luigi and you have what currently looks most plausible to be the high-mid tier imo

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: Definitely > OSfrog

Spoiler: Probably > OSfrog

IMO top 20 is possible, top 15 is a big stretch. (I love that we're actually getting to the point where saying things that specific doesn't automatically make me sound ridiculous cuz I can take care of that regardless. )

EDIT: forgot 3 characters and had to downgrade my prediction lol.

 

[C0rvus]

Any character capable of a podium finish at a major has shown themselves to be solo viable.

Bear in mind that Mr R knows the MU inside and out, and is probably still a more experienced player than istudying despite how amazing istudying clearly is. Mr R guessed right in almost all of the 50/50 situations istudying put him in; I think he was outreading him by the end.

I'm not saying Sheik isn't a massive roadblock, but if it takes a Sheik of Mr R's caliber to stop a good Greninja then the future still looks bright for the character.

Greninja is in the same boat as Ness. At top level, your character is free for a better one. Yes, you can still get top 8, but you will never be first place. Getting a bracket devoid of good Rosalinas is one thing, but avoiding high level Sheik at a major? You're relying a lot on bracket luck.

 

[bc1910]

Except Some is also constantly eliminated by sheik as well. Not like us mains aren't becoming more efficient as well...... Fatality can beat sheiks too, but as soon as he faces vinnie, mr. R, zero, or void he gets rekt. Don't try to overhype this character just because he placed 2nd at a mini major or whatever when at the end of the day he gets invalidated by sheik at Top Level. Do I think greninja is too low on the tier list? YES he is, this character is better then most of the mid tiers like R.O.B, Wario etc. but if you look at it this way; and struggle with sheik, however greninja seems like he is the only one that seem to not have any other top tier roadblocks hence why I believe Greninjs should be higher. Peach, the pits, and definitely toon link all have claims of potentially being better then greninja as well if they weren't already.

We've spent months fighting to prove that this character is worth something and now istudying has done it. This is such a good day for us (and by the way, to most of you guys in this thread who are riding the hype train with us, we really appreciate it; this thread has been reasonably pro-Greninja all the way).

Don't tell us not to overhype ****.

By the way, Venia has beaten Vinnie in bracket.

(Also I don't mean this post to sound aggressive! But no-one is gonna bring us down right now.)

 

[Y2Kay]

Speaking of NA greninjas, Venia is on his way up there.

He's the least experienced of all the frogs (3-4 months in tournament, was a wifi warrior) but now is beating top players in his region. Definitely a player to watch out for

 

[bc1910]

Spoiler: Definitely > OSfrog

Spoiler: Probably > OSfrog

IMO top 20 is possible, top 15 is a big stretch. (I love that we're actually getting to the point where saying things that specific doesn't automatically make me sound ridiculous cuz I can take care of that regardless. )

EDIT: forgot 3 characters and had to downgrade my prediction lol.

I agree with your "definitely" group but the "probably" group is sketchy. I think the only ones who are probably better are the Pits, Greninja is on the same level as the others (and you could argue he's "probably" better than them). Throw in Ike and Falcon and you have a reasonable upper mid tier.

Greninja is in the same boat as Ness. At top level, your character is free for a better one. Yes, you can still get top 8, but you will never be first place. Getting a bracket devoid of good Rosalinas is one thing, but avoiding high level Sheik at a major? You're relying a lot on bracket luck.

I don't disagree, but I think time will tell on this.

Also the fact that we're now arguing about where Greninja will place in top 8 rather than if he can get top 8 at all is a huge step in the right direction.

 

[momochuu]

Care to explain why Peach is mentioned here? She's really not that good a character and her results are definitely worse than those of the other characters you mentioned, both in terms of quality and quantity. Replace her with Ike, add in Yoshi, Falcon and maybe Luigi and you have what currently looks most plausible to be the high-mid tier imo

peach has been a meme since brawl. the character rarely does anything, yet a vocal minority keeps claiming her to be "secret high/top tier" throughout the entirety of the game's lifespan where she stays in the same spot or gets outclassed. she's vastly overrated as usual.

also the sweet justice in istudying doing so well, and against esam at that, is that in a recent article istudying explained why greninja is underrated and people thought he was stupid or something. we've been saying "its just sheik" for a year and now maybe people will actually believe it.

 

[Nobie]

Results are what matter at the end of the day when determining a tier list, but I do think gaming communities in general (not just Smash 4 or Smash in general) tend to have very short term memories when it comes to arguments of viability. A character doesn't make any waves for 2 months? "They must be mid-tier now." The opposite thing can happen too, of course. One result and suddenly it's the end of the world.

I think Greninja is in a similar place to Yoshi. You look at their moves, you look at what they should be capable of, and you feel like they should be high tier. Both characters just have so much: mobility, shenanigans, and just generally a slippery play style. It's just, how much do you value the potential to make things happen vs. characters who are all but guaranteed to make things happen?

To Greninja mains: curious if you think that Greninja:Sheik is better or worse than Mega Man:Sheik.

 

[FullMoon]

To Greninja mains: curious if you think that Greninja:Sheik is better or worse than Mega Man:Sheik.

It's kinda hard to tell when I don't have much knowledge of your side. I don't really know how Mega's tools interact with Sheik's during a match.

I mean other than needles ruin your day.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think greninja's sheik MU is probably as bad as 's and 's


but I don't main them, so what do I know?

If you could give me a brief on it, Maybe I could explain better

 

[Mario766]

I think greninja's sheik MU is probably as bad as 's and 's

but I don't main them, so what do I know?

The Ike MU isn't as drastically abysmal as MM/Greninja.


Bad

Not THAT bad.

 

[Y2Kay]

The Ike MU isn't as drastically abysmal as MM/Greninja.


Bad

Not THAT bad.

I remember you saying it was almost a 30:70? It was a minute since you said that tho

 

[Mario766]

I remember you saying it was almost a 30:70? It was a minute since you said that tho

It's close to a -2 but with Ike's new F-Air, better comboing aerials, and kill confirms I'd honestly put it more like 65-35.

 

[juddy96]

All the results you'd ever want. From Saturday only (including ones that started Saturday and ended today, still getting updated)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iNcmlV17RiXGg_j0Axz3rUhUsn-tfB0fXwBPOCSgNM8/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Djent]

I agree with your "definitely" group but the "probably" group is sketchy. I think the only ones who are probably better are the Pits, Greninja is on the same level as the others (and you could argue he's "probably" better than them). Throw in Ike and Falcon and you have a reasonable upper mid tier.

The thing with Lucario and Toon Link is this: we know that neither loses that badly to Sheik (Lucario has even been claimed to go even w/ her). Even if ZSS bodies Lucario and Rosa bodies TL, neither gets "gatekept" (that's a word now) as hard as Greninja does. Of course, if they end up losing badly to several other A-listers, they could still end beneath Greninja anyway. Luigi also struggles a lot vs. Sheik, though interestingly both Luigi and Greninja have wins over Vinnie. The difference in my eyes is how Luigi probably beats several good characters (Mario, Fox, Pika) whereas I don't know of many characters over whom Greninja has a clear advantage. Corrin is still really tough to call, but has an impressive number of wins in a very short period of time. We'll see how many people actually stick with him/her.

Maybe Ike is comparable to the frog (though doesn't he lose noticeably to Sheik/ZSS?), but I'm really beginning to worry about Falcon MU-wise. You can't really argue that Falcon does better than Greninja vs. Sheik; if anything, he does worse going by results. When you add in the fact that he probably loses to a number of other good characters as well (we wouldn't have seen a Falcon upsetting ESAM), it becomes hard to argue that he should be in the same tier as Greninja.

 

[Y2Kay]

It's close to a -2 but with Ike's new F-Air, better comboing aerials, and kill confirms I'd honestly put it more like 65-35.

that's exactly what greninja mains think the Sheik MU is tho lol

 

[Greward]

I think greninja's sheik MU is probably as bad as 's and 's


but I don't main them, so what do I know?

If you could give me a brief on it, Maybe I could explain better

tbh mega man does notably worse than greninja against sheik, which means terribly bad
the matchup is not winnable atm at high level

 

[C0rvus]

Toon Link v Rosa isn't quite on the same level as Mega Man/Greninja v Sheik. I've never watched high level footage of it, but in my time with Toon Link, Rosa was never an issue. That may have more to do with one of my main training partners playing Rosa than anything else, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We've spent months fighting to prove that this character is worth something and now istudying has done it. This is such a good day for us (and by the way, to most of you guys in this thread who are riding the hype train with us, we really appreciate it; this thread has been reasonably pro-Greninja all the way).

Don't tell us not to overhype ****.

Sorry brah, but you're definitely getting a bit ahead of yourself here. If you're gonna hype up istud for his perforamce, by all means go ahead. But if you're talking specifically about the character Greninja you gotta look at context, circumstances and all that jazz. If we look at Greninja's accomplishments ...:

1.) He beat Lp's Luigi in winners -> Greninja beating Luigi is old news by now
2.) He beat Sodrek's Fox in losers -> Greninja being able to keep up with Fox if you outplay the Fox player is nothing fancy
3.) He got eliminated by two Sheik players -> duh
4.) He goes toe to toe with Pikachu -> duh

Everything beyond that [beating ESAM and all] should honestly be credited to istudy and not to the character he uses. The only thing that can be really considered unusual for Greninja's standards is how convincingly he ended up beating MVD's Diddy. That's certainly something ... but for the most part it confirms what people - largely the Greninja mains - have been claiming all along rather than telling us something about Greninja we hadn't ever taken into consideration before.

peach has been a meme since brawl.

I'm ... not alone?!?

 

[Mario766]

that's exactly what greninja mains think the Sheik MU is tho lol

We also have a sword, so we can beat out Sheik's hitboxes, and her high fast speed works against her in the worst way. Sheik in general gets footstool comboed till basically 70, and at 70 is death percent to a combo off up throw for both up-air and f-air.

The MU is just weird because Ike is probably top in terms of punishing Sheik for a small mistake, also being able to not gimp but yet EXPLODE Sheik for recovering also kinda helps.