Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JustSomeScrub]

Tilt stick lets you nair with the c stick and thus lets several chars do SHFF nairs into kill confirms similar to Greninja and ZSS.

It makes the set up WAY less obvious and opens the door for more mix-ups. On block Lucina first hit nair is -1 when done perfectly. But even imperfectly it prolly would be around -3. You are not punishing that. No one is.

Lucina is not the only one who gains from "Perfect Nair"

Anyone wanna guess who I labbed this tech for originally?

Also I'm a liar. Marth gets a Dancing Blade confirm which is easier to do since he has more time as DB is faster then an f-smash. Tipper DB kills really well. So yeah Marth gets a solid confirm as well.

Point is they both still have tech. Alot of chars still have tech.

I don't think Marth's tippered DB is reliable. At higher percents on most characters, they seem to pop out. Unless there's a way to time it that guarantees a tipper on the last hit on all characters regardless of DI. And I don't think there is, otherwise we'd be seeing top Marths use it a ton for kills.

I think you were right originally, this seems way better for Lucina.

 

[FeelMeUp]

The problem with constant late/weak nairs/bairs is they are very risky against Smash attacks (if your opponent loves to throw them out) and Sheik given how light she is is not ideal for risky play. That might be why top Sheiks don't just start throwing them out at kill percentage. Also again, he's showing them killing on another Sheik, on middleweights it wouldn't kill that early if at all (they might be out of range of the combo once it would start killing onstage).

You have to remember that she's the queen of 50/50s and mixups.
If you get crossed up on shield you have no idea what's coming next. Crossup bair could get you hit with an Fsmash if you drop shield, is safe if they hold shield, combos into bouncing fish if you get hit by it, etc.
There's so many options out of connecting just one of her 3 aerials(nair bair fair) or 2 tilts(ftilt dtilt, sometimes utilt) that your opponent has to constantly worry about dying for guessing wrong. I don't even have to mention what happens when you start conditioning opponents and finding what they tend to do once you put them in the situations.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't think Marth's tippered DB is reliable. At higher percents on most characters, they seem to pop out. Unless there's a way to time it that guarantees a tipper on the last hit on all characters regardless of DI. And I don't think there is, otherwise we'd be seeing top Marths use it a ton for kills.

I think you were right originally, this seems way better for Lucina.

You should try it with Sheik.

Bouncing Fish confirms too real.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

You have to remember that she's the queen of 50/50s and mixups.
If you get crossed up on shield you have no idea what's coming next. Crossup bair could get you hit with an Fsmash if you drop shield, is safe if they hold shield, combos into bouncing fish if you get hit by it, etc.
There's so many options out of connecting just one of her 3 aerials(nair bair fair) or 2 tilts(ftilt dtilt, sometimes utilt) that your opponent has to constantly worry about dying for guessing wrong. Not to mention conditioning with the moves.

Let's say you are facing Mario. His up Smash is basically broken and as Sheik 100 percent is probably kill range for you.

Are you really going to risk doing constant crossup aerials versus him? Especially considering soft nair/bair-bouncing fish might not kill him anyway?

I just don't see the risk/reward in her favour unless the opponent has really poor grounded kill options and only if it actually leads to kills (which I'm not convinced it will on non-light weights, bouncing fish is deceptively weak, only reason you see so many kills with it is because it's usually done offstage/near the edge).

 

[blackghost]

I've had a tough time with the match up myself. And recently I watched Dabuz play a Bayo on his stream for a couple of hours (Captain Zack) and they went dead even over the course of many games. Dabuz himself said he hates the match up and thinks it's slightly in Bayo's favor. That solidified my own opinion of the match up.

do you have a link to the vod?

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I'm going to be a contrarian (shocking I know) and just point out that in the universe where Marth and Lucina were exactly even in strength, everyone would still be idolizing perfect gameplay of perfect tippers and be convinced that Marth was superior. (This would be reflected in results too, since no one would play Lucina.)

I mean, you're right. I have talked to some people in real life who have not played the newest smash bros and used to enjoy Marth. When I explained to them how Lucina works their immediate reaction was "Wow so she's baby mode Marth for people who can't tipper?" This came from people who didn't even play the game, one of them mained Marth in melee and didn't even know he had a tipper mechanic. This definitely has to ring true for amazing players as well, since they are actually trying to perfect their gameplay.

The reality of the situation is, nobody, even top players, are going to be able to constantly tipper all the time. That's assuming you're playing in a vacuum and not against another opponent of equal skill level who is threatening you and spacing themselves. If you're playing as Marth and you're not getting a tipper kill below 100 or so, you might as well have played Lucina that game. I'm still of the opinion that every Marth player can effectively play Lucina and vice versa, you should probably switch your character depending on the match up, since some characters will be harder to wall out then others.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Let's say you are facing Mario. His up Smash is basically broken and as Sheik 100 percent is probably kill range for you.

Are you really going to risk doing constant crossup aerials versus him? Especially considering soft nair/bair-bouncing fish might not kill him anyway?

I just don't see the risk/reward in her favour unless the opponent has really poor grounded kill options and only if it actually leads to kills (which I'm not convinced it will on non-light weights, bouncing fish is deceptively weak, only reason you see so many kills with it is because it's usually done offstage/near the edge).

you pointed out the only character that sheik can't consistently cross up the shield of and get away with it, lol
both mario and like....ryu, maybe?
she doesn't even have to cross up mario's shield, though. just needle camp him until 120 then start crouching and spacing dtilts because mario players don't often jump into you. they'll just fish for the grab.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

So other than the nair kill confirm and stronger base kill power, does Lucina have any other advantages over Marth?

you pointed out the only character that sheik can't consistently cross up the shield of and get away with it, lol
both mario and like....ryu, maybe?
she doesn't even have to cross up mario's shield, though. just needle camp him until 120 then start crouching and spacing dtilts because mario players don't often jump into you. they'll just fish for the grab.

Fair enough. I just immediately thought of Mario since he has some of the best Smash attacks in the game and I've actually seen top Sheiks get bopped by Mario's up Smash all because they were doing constant short hops.

I guess the real question as I've said is, does soft nair/bair true combo into bounching fish at KILL percents against most characters? Or is it very character dependent?

Assuming we're defining kill percent as a guaranteed kill regardless of DI as most people will DI the bouncing fish really well since they have so much time to react to the confirm into it. And it must work at centre stage on most tournament legal stages.

If this really does work on most characters and not just light ones, then I guess Sheiks need to start using these more.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Assuming we're defining kill percent as a guaranteed kill (regardless of DI as most people will DI the bouncing fish really well since they have so much time to react to the confirm into it) at centre stage on most tournament legal stages.

ehhhhh I don't like this question.
Most of Sheik's confirms come from her starting to push you off to the side(if we're doing a horizontal one).
the way this is phrased is sorta like asking "does this kill in the most unfavourable circumstances possible"
most of the confirms kill guaranteed starting at 110-130, connect at 70-80, and they don't stop until 150-160.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

So other than the nair kill confirm and stronger base kill power, does Lucina have any other advantages over Marth?

More damage on every attack that Marth doesn't tipper. Every time you hit someone as Marth and don't sweet spot it, you're losing out on free damage you'd get as Lucina.

I am pretty sure you knew that, but you leaving it out really bothered me.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

ehhhhh I don't like this question.
Most of Sheik's confirms come from her starting to push you off to the side(if we're doing a horizontal one).
the way this is phrased is sorta like asking "does this kill in the most unfavourable circumstances possible"
most of the confirms kill guaranteed starting at 110-130, connect at 70-80, and they don't stop until 150-160.

I guess it's relevant that Sheik is better at gaining stage control than most characters.

Still a kill confirm working when in a neutral state is obviously that much better.

It really makes me think Diddy has the most reliable kill power in the game. He doesn't kill early but kills consistently with probably the least commitment.

His downtilt confirms work regardless of stage positioning and until really high percents (assuming they cant DI out, not sure about this) and his banana - upsmash or fsmash work regardless of how high their percent is.

People talk about Cloud but he has no reliable kill confirms really and with good DI you are going to live at fairly high percents versus stray aerial hits (not nearly as high as against Sheik or Diddy mind but still). LCS is safe on block but requires meter and outside of maybe nair to LCS near the ledge, he has no hit confirm into it at kill range.

I'd be curious to know how early Cloud's aerials actually kill if anyone wants to run those tests as was done earlier with Marth and Lucina. Because it feels fairly late to me. Which kind of goes against the idea of him invalidating Marth/Lucina/Ike if they can kill earlier than him with safe pokes like spaced aerials.

 

[Rizen]

At this point would it be fair to simply place Marth/Lucina and Pit/Dark Pit beside their clone on a tier list?

 

[PK Gaming]

So like...yall know Lucina has a consistent fairly safe kill confirm right?

SH Nair before touching the ground > f-smash.

With tilt stick you can SH then fast fall it making her SH game scarier and this option harder to react too. And since its off a nair, its pretty darn safe on block and even on whiff. At low percents, it's an easy confirm into Dancing Blade.

Marth doesn't have this. Well he does, but it won't kill as early.

So yea....discuss.

Noobs talking about Lucina and havent even tapped her powers as a child of Anri's bloodline. smh

Whaaaaaaat

Don't give me that! A year ago you were like:

"smh why are you wasting time talking about Marth's WEAK granddaughter when you could be talking about the great hero king himself"

Just kidding. But seriously though, if i'm wrong about Lucina strictly being worse than Marth (I mean let's face it, all evidence points to this being the case), then gimme the deets. I don't think I've ever seen SH Nair > Fsmash before, but if that's actually a thing then that's a huge boon in her favor. What's the % range for this?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Whaaaaaaat

Don't give me that! A year ago you were like:

"smh why are you wasting time talking about Marth's WEAK granddaughter when you could be talking about the great hero king himself"

Just kidding. But seriously though, if i'm wrong about Lucina strictly being worse than Marth (I mean let's face it, all evidence points to this being the case), then gimme the deets. I don't think I've ever seen SH Nair > Fsmash before, but if that's actually a thing then that's a huge boon in her favor. What's the % range for this?

I've seen it actually. (Dunno where).
I've also seen aerial DB 1>2 into Side Smash. All I remember is that C-Lu did it, but by this point I have no idea what video it was exactly.

 

[FeelMeUp]

dunno why no one linked it
https://www.twitch.tv/rushhoursmash

MULTIPLE top/high level players here or on the way
Kame, ZeRo, Aba, Dabuz, Marss, NAKAT, Komo, etc.

edit: Komorikiri says he uses Lucina instead of opting for Sonic or Cloud vs Cloud

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So other than the nair kill confirm and stronger base kill power, does Lucina have any other advantages over Marth?



Fair enough. I just immediately thought of Mario since he has some of the best Smash attacks in the game and I've actually seen top Sheiks get bopped by Mario's up Smash all because they were doing constant short hops.

I guess the real question as I've said is, does soft nair/bair true combo into bounching fish at KILL percents against most characters? Or is it very character dependent?

Assuming we're defining kill percent as a guaranteed kill regardless of DI as most people will DI the bouncing fish really well since they have so much time to react to the confirm into it. And it must work at centre stage on most tournament legal stages.

If this really does work on most characters and not just light ones, then I guess Sheiks need to start using these more.

Sliding U-tilt and Jab while walking, which are huge boons in the neutral. She has access to some more True combos than Marth as well due to her moves having higher hitstun than Marth's sourspots. Her ability to string Fairs and combo Bair into Fair / Uair is more reliable than Marth (though less reliable than Roy) for example. Jab combos are slightly more reliable as well due to the move's higher hitstun. I also THINK that her nair has slightly more vertical Range than Marth's sourspot Nair, but less vertical range than his tipper Nair, but this could very well be placebo.

Her landing options are generally safer as well due to the base hitbox of her sword dealing more damage than Marth's, making them safer on shield.

 

[Game7a1]

Side Note: just a reminder to keep the EVO discussion in its dedicated thread.

 

[PK Gaming]

edit: Komorikiri says he uses Lucina instead of opting for Sonic or Cloud vs Cloud

That is some goddamn spectacular timing. I wonder why?

The plot thickens...

EDIT: My precious argument

 

[FeelMeUp]

and he then proceeds to beat Tweek's Cloud with Lucina.
LOL.

 

[L9999]

But Lucina sucks, right guys? (Please don't ban me).

That is some goddamn spectacular timing. I wonder why?

The plot thickens...

Lucina can edgeguard Cloud well and consistently if he doesn't have Limit (unless he pulls off the "got limit offstage" crap). Lucina can fair chain Cloud off, Nair hits hard enough, Bair hits hard too, KOs, and it can turn Lucina around for a Fair, and Counter does its thing. If Lucina has rage and Cloud doesn't have a jump he should never make it back. On the edge Lucina has Down Tilt (situational but can come in handy), Foward Smash (hits super hard and sends characters with crap recoveries in a death angle), Dancing Blade (kinda situational), and Foward Tilt. In return, Cloud can harass Lucina with his fast aerials and if for some reason she has hitstun and is in the air, she will not come back undamaged because Uair. Cloud can force approaches and prevent ledgegrabs with Blade Beam (is that used anymore?), camp Lucina (because why not?), kill her at stupid % with Limit CS, and he can gimp her although not as hard as Lucina gimps Cloud.

 

[ReRaze]

Whaaaaaaat

Don't give me that! A year ago you were like:

"smh why are you wasting time talking about Marth's WEAK granddaughter when you could be talking about the great hero king himself"

Just kidding. But seriously though, if i'm wrong about Lucina strictly being worse than Marth (I mean let's face it, all evidence points to this being the case), then gimme the deets. I don't think I've ever seen SH Nair > Fsmash before, but if that's actually a thing then that's a huge boon in her favor. What's the % range for this?

All evidence doesnt point to Lucina being strictly worse than Marth. Its just that there is really no evidence, who actually plays her?
While I do agree that he is better, what I mean to say is that how can we be so sure that she is so much worse than Marth based on results when there are none?

First hit nair > fsmash is a thing, heck even sh dancing blade > first hit nair > fsmash works. It does true combo starting from around 85+% depending on rage and character weight.
You can even chain multiple together depending on the character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Man it would be hilarious if we had a Lucina secondary winning EVO after the timing of this discussion. "Nobody uses Lucina. Oh look she helped to win EVO."

 

[dakotaisgreat]

"Who uses her?"

I keep saying this and people keep ignoring it. Every great Marth player is 100% capable of using Lucina.

 

[FeelMeUp]

really hate talking about the Lucina thing but I want to push the fact that he convincingly 2-0'd Tweek's Cloud

 

[TheGoodGuava]

A good Marth should always also have a Lucina pocket, I pull her out for Sonic and Lucario in particular. If it weren't for those two characters I would consider Lucina just a useless clone as I don't find her other extra options (sliding tilts, walking jab, etc) worth trading for Marths tippers, however, that doesn't mean she is a bottom tier like she is on the current tier list. She is, by nature, a more consistent clone of a character I consider an upper high tier, which to me puts her in mid tier at the very least

 

[zzmorg82]

That hotel Internet is some struggle; the stream keeps going down every 10 minutes.

But yeah, Komo's Lucina is looking pretty nice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

really hate talking about the Lucina thing but I want to push the fact that he convincingly 2-0'd Tweek's Cloud

I'll press you on this: What did he do in this matchup that was exclusive to Lucina?

Actually curious since I couldn't watch due to IRL things but I'd genuinely like to know.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll press you on this: What did he do in this matchup that was exclusive to Lucina?

Actually curious since I couldn't watch due to IRL things but I'd genuinely like to know.

According to the theory post, its pretty much due to Lucina's entire Fsmash screwing Cloud over if it sends him off stage and not just a tipper? And then everything else about her being "good enough" even if she doesn't have the tipper stuff for raw KOing. Don't need to go for the raw KO against Cloud, just get him off stage. In which case the gap between a tipper kill and Lucina narrows even more.

 

[TTTTTsd]

According to the theory post, its pretty much due to Lucina's entire Fsmash screwing Cloud over if it sends him off stage and not just a tipper? And then everything else about her being "good enough" even if she doesn't have the tipper stuff for raw KOing. Don't need to go for the raw KO against Cloud, just get him off stage. In which case the gap between a tipper kill and Lucina narrows even more.

Oh, yea I can see that vs. Cloud. He's one of the few top tier characters with that really weird weakness of poor disadvantage + hating being sent off-stage to the extent that he does.

I think Marth Ftilt absolutely messes with his recovery too IIRC, maybe I'll try and lab that and make a vid on it. Swords can mess with him like that. Run-off counter edgeguard I think works well too but I could be remembering wrong.

Also despite my argument for Lucina being much less effective than Marth in most instances, I don't think she's garbage or bottom tier or anything. Just noticeably worse IMO.

 

[FeelMeUp]

lucina is certainly much worse than marth.
the things that make her worse are simply not very noticeable vs cloud.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whaaaaaaat

Don't give me that! A year ago you were like:

"smh why are you wasting time talking about Marth's WEAK granddaughter when you could be talking about the great hero king himself"

Just kidding. But seriously though, if i'm wrong about Lucina strictly being worse than Marth (I mean let's face it, all evidence points to this being the case), then gimme the deets. I don't think I've ever seen SH Nair > Fsmash before, but if that's actually a thing then that's a huge boon in her favor. What's the % range for this?

A year ago. In this age a metagame can change in mere weeks.

Stay labbing guys.

It starts working around 85 percent, but also is character dependent.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I am glad that this discussion has been mostly civil. Whatever we get out of this, I really hope that we all leave more informed about both characters. I myself sure learned a lot!
What just happened? Some Lucina beat Tweek's Cloud?...

 

[Kofu]

I am glad that this discussion has been mostly civil. Whatever we get out of this, I really hope that we all leave more informed about both characters. I myself sure learned a lot!
What just happened? Some Lucina beat Tweek's Cloud?...

Whether or not we knew he played her I don't think Komorikiri is just "some Lucina."

 

[Pancracio17]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFQ2o8xOj7U
Stock 2 of Game 2

Dancing Blade : 2,3,3,4(12)- 16.625
Fair : 20 -27.125
T Bair : 33 -38.925
Fair :40 -49.425
Full shieldbreaker :63 -72.425
Offscreen damage :64 -73.425
Pummel D throw :71 -80.425
T Nair 1 : 76 - 84.625
Dair (meteor) : 92 -98.825
Nair 1 :95 -103.025
T bair : 109 -114.825
Up air :122 -126.225
Offscreen damage: 123 - 127.225
Bair :132 -138.025
Fair :140 - 148.525
Bair :151 -160.325

For these particular games, I don't think the character changed anything. Everything that killed would have also killed with Lucina. In all 3 of the stocks Mr. E took, Lucina would have outdamaged Marth. Also when doing this I noticed some of the stuff on Kuroganehammer has to just be wrong. I didn't write down specific examples, but off the top of my head, on stock 2 of the second game, when Marth started off with a dancing blade, his site doesn't show it as being possible to do 2, 3, 3, and 4 damage from Dancing Blade. There was a good amount of other stuff like that, but I didn't make notes of when or where it was.

I know I have basically a non existent sample size of only these two games, but if Mr. E always played like this he would actually do better if he was Lucina. He isn't getting early kills due to the tipper and he isn't hitting enough tippers to outdamage Lucina.

Again, I am not using a sample size of two games from one player to make any sort of statement about tiers, this was just meant to be interesting.

this is interesting because since lucina did more damage and the opponent was at higher %, she also had uthow to kill and all of marths kill options too and she doesnt need to space them, lucina seems advatageous in this situation, however marths "early" ko potential makes rage less of an issue for the swordsman

 

[ElectricBlade]

I was wondering how you guys find the Mewtwo vs. Cloud matchup is? I was looking for a secondary to use so I don't have to Cloud ditto other players as it makes me extremely uncomfortable while playing,

 

[Illusion.]

I was wondering how you guys find the Mewtwo vs. Cloud matchup is? I was looking for a secondary to use so I don't have to Cloud ditto other players as it makes me extremely uncomfortable while playing,

Abadango cites it as Mewtwo's worst MU, and I agree with him.

It's still a doable MU though.

 

[Murlough]

I play Mewtwo and while I haven't played a top-notch Cloud I'd say its a pretty even match-up.

We have the speed to punish things other characters simply can't which alone makes the match-up more bearable. With Confusion and Teleport we don't really care about up air strings neither.

Unfortunately, Limit Cross Slash is still terrifying.

EDIT: Abandango is a great player, one of my favorites, but he also doesn't have a complete grasp of Mewtwo's toolkit yet. I'd say Diddy was way worse than Cloud. Then again, who the **** am I?

 

[Lavani]

Speaking of Lucina last year, this post passed its 1 year anniversary a couple weeks ago.

Oh and a kind-of late reply to the notion of Lucina losing her niche after 1.0.8 buffed Marth and introduced Roy that seemed to be going on earlier, the buffed nair and no need for precision for hitstun/kills has given her this:

I didn't do extensive comparisons with Marth yet, but sour nair doesn't combo as early and it didn't seem like tipper nair's spacing matched what would be needed for tipper fsmash, so I don't think it's remotely as viable for him, and Roy has 1 more frame of landing lag on nair + 4 more frames startup on fsmash.

While her gameplan might lack potential depth compared to the other FE swordsmen, she still got the same buffs Marth got, and her consistency has its merits.

nair range buffs since then still don't line up a tipper fsmash for marth unless he gets a retreating tipper nair when landing while moving away at just the right speed, so it's still more of a lucina thing than a marth thing

 

[Gunla]

Just a reminder that we have a dedicated thread for EVO:
http://smashboards.com/threads/summer-of-smash-week-7-evo-2016-and-co.439340/

Day 1 Stream
Day 2 Stream

 

[C0rvus]

Marth players should all have decent Lucinas at the ready, I should think. Use them every now and then, why don't you? Couldn't hurt to try, especially if you find yourself hitting FF nairs against your opponent haha. Didn't know about that Cloud matchup, but I can see Lucina's strengths coming out big in that situation. Stealing that idea for myself, used to secondary Lucina way back when I played Ness.