Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Mr.E and Pugwest both do very well in brackets in their region, their combined results + personal bias of playing them both in various matchups definitely justify it.

Well P2P, istudying, eddy, Elexiao, and to a lesser extent Some, and Venia have also done well at a regional level as well.

 

[Ulevo]

Diddy, Sheik, Bayo, Mario, Cloud off the top of my head.

No specific number

Interesting. I do believe their is a strong case to be made that Sheik vs Meta Knight is 5:5 post patch. What made this match up difficult was that Sheik secured kills from a grab around 115% and it was not a 50/50. Meta Knight retains most of what he had in this match up since she was hard to kill combo but his conventional methods are still available. Mario has always been relatively even with it possibly being slanted in Meta Knight's favor pre-patch. Mario was hard to kill with effective DI like Sheik so I do not believe it has changed much. It might lean in Mario's favor but it is still essentially even. A well played Diddy I think beats Meta Knight 6:4 given how effective banana is at controlling the pace of the match, though it could be better than than I am claiming. Cloud has a hard time peeling Meta Knight off and gets wrecked off stage, so I think this being even is possible too.

Match ups you've excluded that I think are more likely to pose an issue than what has been mentioned are Luigi and Sonic.

 

[Kofu]

Take Falcon, give him a sword. Good. Now remove his range, safety on attacks, overall neutral options, and amazing air kill power/ strong 50-50s and ability to get deep for kills. Congrats, you have Roy.

So basically make Falcon honest?

Don't get me wrong, I think he's bad. I just don't think he's Jigglypuff bad. Seems at least around Zelda/Dedede levels of competent, if not slightly higher, to me. His gameplan is there, it's just not quite strong enough.

 

[C0rvus]

So basically make Falcon honest?

Don't get me wrong, I think he's bad. I just don't think he's Jigglypuff bad. Seems at least around Zelda/Dedede levels of competent, if not slightly higher, to me. His gameplan is there, it's just not quite strong enough.

Oh so he's not bottom 2 but he's bottom 5? I agree. I wish I could say more about Roy other than "he's Falcon but worse" but it would mean little. I think Roy is very close to being a threat, but he stumbles too much over his own design atm. Some smart buffs could bring him places. Here's hoping.

 

[Dabuz]

iStudy's lack of "consistent results against top tier players" is a fair point. It's largely due to his location IMO. As he travels more we will hopefully see this improve. Bear in mind he's indisputably top 3 and probably #2 in the Netherlands, if not Europe.

You said it yourself, Greninja is great in theory yes, and I want to bump him up, but I can't, not unless Istudying racks up a lot of notable wins, which means traveling more sadly.

Falcon, the Pits, and Marth all have good results. Luigi maybe not so much but I can't see him in contention with the characters a tier lower based on what concon, basically the only luigi I know doing things at big events, well, does.

 

[Luco]

Love your work Dabuz. Mewtwo I think might be somewhat pre-emptive however, I think he has that capability but I'm not confident in his placement *yet* and I'm interested in why Aba is pretty much the only Mewtwo making waves on that scale whilst Blue and Mew^2 are still kinda maintaining the consistency they always were. As in, unlike Sonic and Fox who I can count on seeing at any given tournament and doing well, mewtwo is still one of those mystery characters I don't see a large group of people placing highly with, and you'd think his player-base would be pretty large too.

I'll add myself to the list of people who think Greninja is a little too low, but I understand why you have him there when Istudy is just too dang far away. ;_;

And I'm a believer in Marth. To an extent, of course, but I agree with his placement and think he'll be going up in most people's lists as time goes on.

 

[Dabuz]

So basically make Falcon honest?

Don't get me wrong, I think he's bad. I just don't think he's Jigglypuff bad. Seems at least around Zelda/Dedede levels of competent, if not slightly higher, to me. His gameplan is there, it's just not quite strong enough.

The point is, this is plan buff Roy, let me put him as bottom tier so that in 3 months he has dthrow -> death or something cool

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Do you think Peach really fits where she is? I think it's a little awkward, but again your the professional....so my opinion shouldn't really even matter.
Though by some small chance you may have been very unsure of Peach? Maybe you haven't fought too many? I could be wrong, I'm just wondering.

Also one thing I would like to ask, do you think Peach does have potential still waiting to be unlocked? Essentially the highest skill cap character in the game, needs much time for improvement.

I don't think she's any secret too tier, but you think she can be a threat?

 

[Deleted member]

This. This is why I don't like it when people dump on For Glory players. Chances are, you're not that great either, and if you don't even go to local tournaments, you can kindly STFU instead of bashing random people who just play these modes for fun. Nobody cares about your combo videos where you beat 9 year olds who think Bowser Bomb is the best move in the game. The most popular people who stream For Glory like Alpharad, Lythero, Acestarthe3rd, and StylesX2 don't do well in tournaments and I don't think a lot of their fans realize this. It's the equivalent of high school baseball players bragging about being able to trash tee ball players, knowing full well if they went up against MLB players, they'd get their *** handed to them in a popcorn bucket, drizzled with extra butter and the salt of their tears. Case in point, stay humble and try to help instead of hurt the people who are actually trying to get better.

To be quite fair, AceStar did get 33rd at Pound and is sponsored by Haven eSports.

I agree with this post wholeheartedly, though. Everyone in this community needs to help each other improve, it's healthy and the right thing to do after all in the end. I'm guilty of ridiculing others myself.

 

[Dabuz]

Do you think Peach really fits where she is? I think it's a little awkward, but again your the professional....so my opinion shouldn't really even matter.
Though by some small chance you may have been very unsure of Peach? Maybe you haven't fought too many? I could be wrong, I'm just wondering.

Also one thing I would like to ask, do you think Peach does have potential still waiting to be unlocked? Essentially the highest skill cap character in the game, needs much time for improvement.

I don't think she's any secret too tier, but you think she can be a threat?

As a Rosa main who thinks Rosa beats peach solidly...no, she gets walled out pretty easily and can't chase well

 

[Kofu]

Oh so he's not bottom 2 but he's bottom 5? I agree. I wish I could say more about Roy other than "he's Falcon but worse" but it would mean little. I think Roy is very close to being a threat, but he stumbles too much over his own design atm. Some smart buffs could bring him places. Here's hoping.

He's probably not bottom 5, either, but honestly very low/bottom tier gets very murky. Other contenders (Samus) have gotten very nice buffs so other characters have to move down. I think Roy has a lot going for him but he needs a read to get started (and usually to secure kills) which hurts his viability.

The point is, this is plan buff Roy, let me put him as bottom tier so that in 3 months he has dthrow -> death or something cool

Should have put Game & Watch in bottom 3 then too

Curious about your Samus placing, too. Doesn't feel wrong (I've thought Samus was better than other people did, even before her buffs) but it does seem unusual. What influenced you?

 

[Dabuz]

He's probably not bottom 5, either, but honestly very low/bottom tier gets very murky. Other contenders (Samus) have gotten very nice buffs so other characters have to move down. I think Roy has a lot going for him but he needs a read to get started (and usually to secure kills) which hurts his viability.


Should have put Game & Watch in bottom 3 then too

Curious about your Samus placing, too. Doesn't feel wrong (I've thought Samus was better than other people did, even before her buffs) but it does seem unusual. What influenced you?

She just is, alright now? Obviously there isn't much to go on but I don't see her considered trash by her mains anymore, but no one is clamoring to pick her up at top level player.

What you said about Roy applies to everyone, because almost this entire cast and this entire games revolves around getting momentum, most characters just get it, hold it, and convert it better while having an easier time escaping an opponent with momentum.

 

[Megamang]

I die so much to marth's new fancy fair. And every time, im like... oh, that kills...

And yea, Luc is busted for like... 15% of the game, ish. If someone like Anti or any other pro who is great at avoiding kill setups picked him up, he'd be making waves.

Aura sphere is just... the premier BS trap once its big enough. The other day, I was playing a falcon... I had survived to almost max aura (his fault, but still)... I did ASC the wrong way and was facing him hitting his shield, I just dropped it and grabbed him... and uthrow uair killed him off the ceiling at ~45%

I can see him demolishing fox, if he holds shield and lives. On the other hand, I can see the consistency of fox's kill confirms just ruining him before he gets momentum. This isn't anything new, but I do believe Lucario is getting stronger in the meta. Imagine how busted it would be if he still had the shield lock Aura Sphere?

 

[Appledees]

Do you think Megaman can rise considering his recent solid results so far by Scatt?

I think your placement is fine but I think he still has alot more room to grow

 

[Wintermelon43]

Why is Pac-Man so low on your list Dabuz

And how come Zelda is so high?

 

[Smog Frog]

Dabuz

what particularly bad matchups does have that warrant his low placement?

 

[Trifroze]

Aren't tier lists always (supposed to be) matchup based? I do like the list and agree with it as much as the next person, but many are acting as if this type of tiering is some sort of a revolution. Maybe this one emphasizes solo viability more, but isn't that also usually the case?

Also, for instance isn't something like +1/+1/+1/+1/0/0/0/-1/-1/-2 technically just as good as +1/+1/+1/0/0/0/0/-1/-1/-1/ for a matchup spread, which is why Rosalina, ZSS and Mario are often considered to be right up there in the same cluster with the likes of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy and Cloud? The former group is more likely to face a winning matchup than the latter, but when the former one faces a losing matchup it can sometimes be considerably worse. Aside from counterpicking being more effective against this group, their odds are theoretically the exact same on the long run, and the reality at least right now is that many people don't actually counterpick and many of the ones who do simply end up trading character familiarity for matchup advantage.

 

[bc1910]

You said it yourself, Greninja is great in theory yes, and I want to bump him up, but I can't, not unless Istudying racks up a lot of notable wins, which means traveling more sadly.

Falcon, the Pits, and Marth all have good results. Luigi maybe not so much but I can't see him in contention with the characters a tier lower based on what concon, basically the only luigi I know doing things at big events, well, does.

Kinda makes this just another results based tier list then. Which we have hundreds of. His placement is simply not right if this is about MUs, or even with a 50/50 weighting on MUs/results.

Thank you for the response regardless.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Abadango losing to a Villager player that's not Ranai. This made my soul happy to watch.

I feel like Villager is one of those slept on characters despite the fact that many people still agree that they're good. I may be wrong about this but it feels like support for them is fairly lukewarm in the West at best and I haven't really heard of any western Villager players making waves as of late. Feel free to correct me though because I'm definitely wanting to know of more high level Villager players to watch out for.

 

[Ninety]

...MUs determined based on theorycrafting by Greninja mains?

 

[Y2Kay]

Kinda makes this just another results based tier list then. Which we have hundreds of. His placement is simply not right if this is about MUs, or even with a 50/50 weighting on MUs/results.

Thank you for the response regardless.

Yeah, I feel the same.

For the most part match up ratios are basically theory. Characters like greninja simply will never be able to face off against every top level main of each character, so we use theory to plug the holes.

Even then though, Greninja's regional placings are pretty strong, especially in Europe. I feel his results are stronger than Marth's and at least on par with Pit's.

Looks like we're back to being underrated, bro

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz

what particularly bad matchups does have that warrant his low placement?

Rosa (IDC that Xaltis lost to a Lucas), Olimar, Diddy, Mario, ect., in fact, most of the top and high tiers should beat him.

Same with Pacman

Zelda isn't in trash tier, she's not high, biiiig difference.

Megaman is doing particularly well lately, but I don't see his results as consistent ever, throughout smash 4 he has constantly had periods of doing well than not so well which is indicative of the different waves of characters he runs across. Lots of Sheiks pre-patch? Fares poorly. More diddy kongs? Does better. I know it's a super basic example but the point is his placements are a direct result of the meta. Where you have characters like Diddy or even Villager who don't fluctuate that much. Not saying they can't BTW, but more fluctuation tends to mean more diversity in matchup spread.

Well BC, it's more of, how do I put it? All tier lists are results, however a lot of them value results for their own sake, I value results for the sake of individual matchups. So fox for example, despite not having any top 3 results at nationals, is above Sonic, mewtwo, ect. because when looking at his individual results by a matchup basis has an amazing record. Inversely Ness has really good results, better than Fox possibly, BUT his results by a per matchup basis are harmed significantly by the presence of Rosa. Greninja suffers because of reasons already stated. I do think he has good theory, but it needs to be put into practice. Look at mewtwo, we all knew he was good, but until Aba beat everyone with mewtwo, no credible player put him above lower high tier. Those characters above greninja, even with WORSE theory, have better matchup per matchup results. It's a very difficult line to walk because I have to balance everything but still keep things within my own opinion.

Aren't tier lists always (supposed to be) matchup based? I do like the list and agree with it as much as the next person, but many are acting as if this type of tiering is some sort of a revolution. Maybe this one emphasizes solo viability more, but isn't that also usually the case?

Also, for instance isn't something like +1/+1/+1/+1/0/0/0/-1/-1/-2 technically just as good as +1/+1/+1/0/0/0/0/-1/-1/-1/ for a matchup spread, which is why Rosalina, ZSS and Mario are often considered to be right up there in the same cluster with the likes of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy and Cloud? The former group is more likely to face a winning matchup than the latter, but when the former one faces a losing matchup it can sometimes be considerably worse. Aside from counterpicking being more effective against this group, their odds are theoretically the exact same on the long run, and the reality at least right now is that many people don't actually counterpick and many of the ones who do simply end up trading character familiarity for matchup advantage.

Having a spread with one -2 is much worse than two -1s IMO, because a -1 basically says you don't want to play the matchup, but if you outplay your opponent there shouldn't be anything to prevent you from winning, there is not a single character in bracket you have to fear. However having a -2 means that there is a character who even if you outplay your opponent, you can very likely lose to, assuming solo maining, that is exponentially higher odds of a bad matchup even if there are less bad MUs. That's why Mario and Rosa in particular are lower than M2/ Sonic, even if I feel their total spread is better and their tournament results are better, they have a higher chance of just running into a matchup that their mains should consider a secondary for.

Edit: However, if you have 4 or so -1s, that's probably worse than a -2 just because that means you consistently have to play at disadvantages, and in tournaments mental stamina is absolutely a factor, no one is a robot, no one is perfectly consistent, the more poor MUs you run into the higher likelihood of losing that MU, and at some point it's more likely to lose one of your four -1 matchups in a row than it is to lose your three 0 or even +1 matchups and your one -2 matchup.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd actually be somewhat surprised if Lucas had any *particularly* bad matchup. His physics are similar to those of Ness, except his recovery is a lot better. Having a tether grab often times isn't even a true weakness in smash 4 and Lucas has one of the strongest sets of throws to make up for it. I can see Sonic and Diddy being troublesome but I doubt he has any matchup where he gets truly exposed.

 

[Trifroze]

Having a spread with one -2 is much worse than two -1s IMO, because a -1 basically says you don't want to play the matchup, but if you outplay your opponent there shouldn't be anything to prevent you from winning, there is not a single character in bracket you have to fear. However having a -2 means that there is a character who even if you outplay your opponent, you can very likely lose to, assuming solo maining, that is exponentially higher odds of a bad matchup even if there are less bad MUs. That's why Mario and Rosa in particular are lower than M2/ Sonic, even if I feel their total spread is better and their tournament results are better, they have a higher chance of just running into a matchup that their mains should consider a secondary for.

Edit: However, if you have 4 or so -1s, that's probably worse than a -2 just because that means you consistently have to play at disadvantages, and in tournaments mental stamina is absolutely a factor, no one is a robot, no one is perfectly consistent, the more poor MUs you run into the higher likelihood of losing that MU, and at some point it's more likely to lose one of your four -1 matchups in a row than it is to lose your three 0 or even +1 matchups and your one -2 matchup.

That edit part is the perspective I was going for, i.e. if two people are on the same level, which of the following is more difficult: outplaying two -1s in a row or outplaying a single -2? Some characters have more clutch factor than others so I'm sure a Sheik player would almost definitely choose the former whereas a Lucario might choose the latter. Still, I understand your other perspective as well. If you're better than the opponent and stay consistent, then you can make up for your character's -1s whereas you still likely won't make up for their -2s.

 

[sedrf]

I don't think dabuz has no negative mus due to pretty much ****ting on her entirely.

 

[Smog Frog]

you're being too usa-centric with your results, then, if xaltis losing to a is a big thing that needs to be disregarded(i don't even remember something like this happening). across the pond in japan, taiheta regularly beats atelier . i concur that may be a bit of a difficult matchup but i think all of his mus across the "dominant" echelon of characters are good enough.

 

[Y2Kay]

Shaya how do you view Marth's match up spread?

 

[Dabuz]

you're being too usa-centric with your results, then, if xaltis losing to a is a big thing that needs to be disregarded(i don't even remember something like this happening). across the pond in japan, taiheta regularly beats atelier . i concur that may be a bit of a difficult matchup but i think all of his mus across the "dominant" echelon of characters are good enough.

When it comes to Rosa i'm very biased for obvious reasons. I only care about Falln and myself in terms of USA results. Had no idea about that in Japan and I would like to see videos, but still, in my experience the MU feels Rosa favored.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Isn't rosa considered bad for diddy? Man, community opinion sways pretty quickly.

 

[Y2Kay]

When it comes to Rosa i'm very biased for obvious reasons. I only care about Falln and myself in terms of USA results. Had no idea about that in Japan and I would like to see videos, but still, in my experience the MU feels Rosa favored.

I'm too lazy to post each match individually, but here is the YouTube page:

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCpu15uRsvI2opP78cdslj3A?

 

[KamikazePotato]

This. This is why I don't like it when people dump on For Glory players. Chances are, you're not that great either, and if you don't even go to local tournaments, you can kindly STFU instead of bashing random people who just play these modes for fun. Nobody cares about your combo videos where you beat 9 year olds who think Bowser Bomb is the best move in the game. The most popular people who stream For Glory like Alpharad, Lythero, Acestarthe3rd, and StylesX2 don't do well in tournaments and I don't think a lot of their fans realize this. It's the equivalent of high school baseball players bragging about being able to trash tee ball players, knowing full well if they went up against MLB players, they'd get their *** handed to them in a popcorn bucket, drizzled with extra butter and the salt of their tears. Case in point, stay humble and try to help instead of hurt the people who are actually trying to get better.

For Glory is the only way for most of this playerbase to compete - not everyone has the time/money to travel to tournaments that aren't in their area. So yeah, it means a bit more than most people think it does.


Dabuz - what matchups do you think are so bad for Ike that you would put him in the -2 spot? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the placement, as he does have some bad matchups, but he also has a lot of solid matchups against a lot of strong characters. The character doesn't get a ton of results, but from what I can tell it's more from just not being played very often than anything else. Thoughts?

 

[Dabuz]

Isn't rosa considered bad for diddy? Man, community opinion sways pretty quickly.

Even or very slight advantage I think, Diddy players just needed time to realize their character is still good.

Time for class bye guys go back to discussing Greninja for the 50th time, how Rosalina loses to MK and she's overrated, why Bayo isn't dominating the meta, cloud being too good, random kirby stuff, Ryu dropping, and all that stuff you always discuss. Just an FYI, I lurk here a lot.

 

[Y2Kay]

Time for class bye guys go back to discussing Greninja for the 50th time, how Rosalina loses to MK and she's overrated, why Bayo isn't dominating the meta, cloud being too good, random kirby stuff, Ryu dropping, and all that stuff you always discuss. Just an FYI, I lurk here a lot.

Double post? Smh

Well goodbye (and we don't discuss greninja THAT much)

 

[jespoke]

So one thing that struck me as interesting that popped up in the discussion just now was for matchups:
> > >

What are some other triangle matchups that have popped up in the top of the tier lists now that everyone(?) has a negative matchup?

 

[C0rvus]

Double post? Smh

Well goodbye (and we don't discuss greninja THAT much)

Nah, we kinda do.

And Dabuz do you think that Meta Knight doesn't beat Rosalina? Might I ask what makes you think that? I'm curious/want excuses for why I lose that MU.

 

[LancerStaff]

Little late I suppose but I'll post anyway... What really gets me with Roy is how he's supposed to hit hard and yet the damage on his aerials is comparable to Pit's.

Pit's Fair is 7% total, Roy's is 11% max and 7% min. This makes sense at least...
Pit's Nair 9.6% total, Roy's is 9% min, 14.5% max. If you get one weak and one strong then it's either 12.5% or 10%.
Pit's Bair is 12% max, 8% min, while Roy's at 12% and 9%. Sounds okayish until you look at the hitbox placement. Pit's is mostly sweetspot with the 8% hitbox mostly on his body. Roy's I don't think can compete with that...
Pit's Uair does 10% total, Roy's does 9% max, 6% minimum.
Pit's Dair does 10%. Roy's does 15% max, 10% min. Yeah, the damage makes sense. The damage is the only thing that makes sense on that move.

 

[jespoke]

Wasn't one of the first things Dabuz said when coming into the thread that Rosa wasn't top tier because the Meta Knight matchup was so bad? I think his closing remark was about us making too big conclusions off individual strengths/weaknesses.
We ride waves so to say.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Time for class bye guys go back to discussing Greninja for the 50th time, how Rosalina loses to MK and she's overrated, why Bayo isn't dominating the meta, cloud being too good, random kirby stuff, Ryu dropping, and all that stuff you always discuss. Just an FYI, I lurk here a lot.

Ouch...lmao

So one thing that struck me as interesting that popped up in the discussion just now was for matchups:
> > >

What are some other triangle matchups that have popped up in the top of the tier lists now that everyone(?) has a negative matchup?

>>>

 

[Peppermint1201]

i think hidden talent is very possible, especially since this game has a wifi community. that olimar that got 2nd was a wifi warrior, right?

Kinda. He plays on wifi a lot, but that's because he lives on Kyushu, the southernmost Japanese island. He still attends tournaments on that island (which he almost always wins) and Umebura 22 wasn't his first tournament, just his first mainland tournament. I agree though, there is a lot of hidden wifi talent out there. For example, McPeePants, a brawl Wolf player, has been grinding on Anther's Ladder a lot lately and is now #1 by a sizable margin using Dark Pit.

 

[ARISTOS]

That list looks pretty decent to me.

Think Marth is kinda high there (and you can't have Marth that high w/o Lucina also being near there) but Pugwest is in a v. strong region so no complaints