Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[jespoke]

Not this again...

I'm sorry, i maybe got a bit too caught up in TAS mindset, reading DI takes more than a few frames so is not a reasonable comparison.

I though the 20XX extrapolation would be a good illustration of just how far we are from optimized Quick Attack.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Visual Reference:

These lists are fun and it's interesting to see what pro and semi-pro players think, but they all seem weighted towards having positive matchups, which is a bit ridiculous.
Robin now beats Samus by heavy advantage apparently, which is absurd. And similarly little mac.
A fair amount of "oh this is a generally accepted low-tier, we should win". No. No you do not win. These are much more even matchups than these lists are posting.

 

[Blobface]

From reading the last few pages, what can Wario and Robin do vs Ganon that puts the matchup considerably in their favor?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Based on what I've seen of GanontheBeast fighting Robin, the MU is definitely not -3 for Dorf.
Edit:
Here's some recent quality footage of the MU.

 

[zeldasmash]

Visual Reference:

Note: 55:45 = +1, 60:40 = +2, etc.

I fail to see how Robin solidly beats Link. Hylian Shield alone makes Robin have to approach Link, which he will have a hard time doing because Robin isn't mobile enough to reliably avoid Bombs and Rang's, Link's grab also makes Robin fear him in the midrange, Link outranges him in almost every department, can edge-guard Robin without effort with nair and dair and Link is more mobile on the ground.

I could be wrong, but i fail to see how Robin beats Link 60:40. Even, i can understand, but solidly in Robin's favor? I just don't see it.

 

[sedrf]

Angbad made an olimar mu list

 

[ARISTOS]

how so?


on a sidenote, we should probably let @Raziek know that we're discussing his chart lol (idk if drath has an sb account)

It is absurdly positive for a character that has managed to do very little of note.

Main suspects IMO are the Link, Samus, DK, Sonic, Fox, Lucina, Toon Link, and Greninja MUs, which make no sense to be in Robin's favor or evenly split

 

[Jalil]

That Greninja fair story sounds pretty cool, but imagine if Greninja's nair came out on like frame 5? The foot stool combos would be a lot more easier to do then! Please give me that buff, sakurai!

I think that would actually make it harder to link footstool combos together. The startup it has now is perfect for footstools cuz following the water shuriken air-stall, the hitbox comes out right after their invincibility ends and before they can act. A frame 5 nair would hit while they're still invincible and make the water shuriken stall useless. You would have to land after the dair lock then short hop-->nair instead of just water shuriken to nair which is easier to do.
It would be worse for footstools but better for greninga overall. I don't think he needs any buffs tho.

Pretty bad, but it's bad against everyone. Pacman needs to set stuff up though to be able to cover everything, as opposed to someone like Rosa who can just stand there and punish anything you do on reaction.

Pacman doesn't need a fruit in his hand or the trampoline out to cover ledge options but if he has them out, his ledge coverage is better and more rewarding than rosa's.

Pac can place a hydrant on the ledge then charge down smash at max distance and release it on reaction to his opponent. The hydrant extends the hitbox of down smash which also makes it easier to time. Down smash does a decent amount of damage so it sends the hydrant flying in one hit. Most of, if not all getup a attacks don't do enough to send the hydrant flying in one hit so you're safe from them.

Hydrant at ledge--> dsmash also covers roll, jump and standard getup. If they wait or drop down form the ledge while you're still charging down smash, you're safe cuz the hydrant water pushes you out of reach.

This takes less than or equal to the amount of time it does for rosa to stand at ledge roll distance and do a few reps of luma jabs to send it out far enough to cover anything

 

[Nah]

Raz and Dath are both very optimistic when it comes to Robin. Lot of Robin mains are really. I'm not, and I don't agree with some of those placings on their chart but it also kinda doesn't matter what I think so....

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

To answer properly, I think a lot of characters could have simple tweak buffs and suddenly be truly scary/front runner.
Do I think there is some secretly underrated character with strong rep would suddenly be top? Not really, that's not how I work/think. I'm happy to be proven wrong by sudden shock and horror, but as of yet there haven't really been many instances of this. I try not to think "definitely this/that" and tend to have semi-accurate ballpark feels on characters I've studied to some extent (i.e. Doc Mario isn't abysmal was something I was happy to press, then Nairo against ESAM happened and it was suddenly 'fact', I was suggesting that Mewtwo was a feasibly serious threat for a while and Aba picking him up was like "well, this is is inevitable" and bang Pound).

So in essence, a lot of middle-ish characters with a few tweaks could suddenly be gods.
Do I think there are some underrated characters yet to have top rep to really sell their strengths to the general populace? Sure, but I contemplate their shortfalls aren't fully known to me or are at least more difficult to overcome than I expect if they haven't happened yet in any observable manner.

If another string of buffs came to Marth, I would be contemplating a feasible top tier. His current strength now is solid. Ike mains are already starting to get upset when people are nonchalantly rating him below Marth. The end is nigh
But this has a lot to do with their design being a standard "top tier design". We know Marth can be top tier. And characters with similar kits can obviously also be be relatively simple to push towards top tier; "hello Mewtwo" (because tails are sometimes effectively swords).

Range, frame data, mobility -> causes fear, hence shield/other defensive options -> base abilities are fine/great at dealing with defensive options -> also naturally does great things out of shield due to range, mobility, frame data.

If Greninja's fair was sub 10 frame start up, it would be hard for me not to consider him a staple top tier-esque design (well, him gaining a horizontal rising aerial option that hits people on the ground, basically). If Lucario's tilts and aerials were slightly easier to poke with like he had in Brawl, he'd probably be etching towards top tier too; but I think Mewtwo was designated to take that niche from him.
But this style of design that is the basis of the strength of Sheik, Zero Suit, Diddy, etc etc are not the only styles that can be top tier but they really need a lot of padding in certain areas to compete (like let's say, throw in some super armor or invincibility [mario], have extremely strong frame advantages hence insane combo games/KO confirms [fox, ryu], or zonezonezone [Rosalina]).
Cloud is this design but noticeably lacks the forward facing pokes (like standardish fairs or down tilts); I'll get around to it at some point but I currently believe Cloud is a lot more honest than given credit for.

Either way I think the character with the most amount of yet to be seen potential: Corrin
Character with only a few tweaks would be making everyone cry indefinitely forever because it would be super-brawl-wario on crack: Wii Fit Trainer.
But Megaman with less lag on his aerials would be demonic as well. Heck the lists could go on indefinitely.

So for Wii Fit Trainer. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what could be tweaked of her to make her top or high tier. Also, I'm just wondering what super-brawl-wario on crack means.(My bad lol)

 

[Trunks159]

Angbad made an olimar mu list

-2 for Shulk O_o. Well that's interesting.

 

[Jalil]

-2 for Shulk O_o. Well that's interesting.

I'm not that surprised. Shulk out ranges almost everything olimar has, doesn't need to get too close to oli and isn't forced to approach cuz he can just swat pikmin before they reach him. Oli doesn't have the frame data to take advantage of shulks bad startup/rush him down and isn't fast enough on ground to reliably attack during the shulks landing lag of a whiffed aerial. Shulks also edgeguards him pretty easily.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin has good "in theory" applications for MUs, but the Robins are stuck in areas where the skill floor is not the best around, with Dath being the exception.

For comparison's sake, here's my MU chart from February. Not a lot has changed between patch 1.1.4 and 1.1.5, with the only things I'd change being Mewtwo, Bayonetta, and Ryu going into Noted Disadvantage, and Toon Link and Fox going to even.

Robin perspective is gonna fluctuate based on region and exposure, really.

 

[Djent]

-2 for Shulk O_o. Well that's interesting.

But then he also has Cloud +1, Corrin 50/50, and Ike -1. Seems highly unlikely regardless of Oli's strengths.

 

[Trunks159]

Robin has good "in theory" applications for MUs, but the Robins are stuck in areas where the skill floor is not the best around, with Dath being the exception.

For comparison's sake, here's my MU chart from February. Not a lot has changed between patch 1.1.4 and 1.1.5, with the only things I'd change being Mewtwo, Bayonetta, and Ryu going into Noted Disadvantage, and Toon Link and Fox going to even.

Robin perspective is gonna fluctuate based on region and exposure, really.

How do you feel about Nairo losing to Mr. II? Surely the matchup can't be THAT bad.

But then he also has Cloud +1, Corrin 50/50, and Ike -1. Seems highly unlikely regardless of Oli's strengths.

Is it so odd for Olimar to beat a character of Cloud's caliber?

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I play olimar as a secondary and I agree that he loses pretty solidly to shulk. Vision is a really big help and olimar can't contest shulks range. Camping with jump art and shield art also helps against olimar.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Is it so odd for Olimar to beat a character of Cloud's caliber?

It feels odd that a character would beat Cloud but lose to Shulk, as most of Shulk's main strengths are ones which Cloud also has, only better.

 

[DanGR]

Also question to thous who play in Guest 1111 Mii regions... How many Mii Mains there are in your area that come to locals and stuff? Just wondering.

Here's a list of all the 1111 Mii players in my area:




And there's about 5 or so players in just my state that would practice them if they were legal statewide, including myself.

 

[LancerStaff]

Raziek thinks Pit's in Robin's favor? Uh, no. More likely it's the opposite. Maybe Dark Pit but that's probably even.

Pit has more range and mobility then Robin, obviously. Robin's zoning ability just isn't that effective against Pit because of his arrows. For example, the ol' Arcfire under a platform trick does diddly because it only has half a hitbox and gives Pit more then enough space to aim an arrow through. Robin won't be getting Arcthunder often either, since most of it's gotten after somebody's been launched. Either he has to go most of a stock without any Thunder magic or be limited to the first two levels. Both Pits' side Bs reflect Arcthunder properly too. Offstage Robin's a joke because, you guessed it, arrows. Meanwhile the Pits' side Bs bounce off of all of Robin's projectiles unscathed, including Arcfire after it hits the ground, and if Robin's too trigger-happy with Elwind offstage it's going to get reflected back at him and spike him to his doom.

 

[Jalil]

It feels odd that a character would beat Cloud but lose to Shulk, as most of Shulk's main strengths are ones which Cloud also has, only better.

Shulks better at edeguarding, has more range, survives longer, has a better recovery, better ground game, a way better grab game, better (but less consistent) mobility, his disjoints aren't much harder to land on small characters and his aerials kill earlier than clouds even without smash art on. Also having access to fast, unblockable attack (counter) whenever there are pikmin attached to shulk makes olimar be more cautious when using side b.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

If there's one thing I learned about playing Pac-Man it's that reflectors require smart play, but don't mean a disadvantage.
It means you have to press your buttons when they matter and require a more reading based style but in no way does a reflector (especially not Pit's) make you lose as a projectile based character.

In this case, Robin mains can bait out lolupperdash.
Stage Control is really good to have and if Pit wants to counter that he must use a certain attack.
And that's where you know what your opponent is gonna do and you can punish.

Last but not least, what Robin would use Arcthunder in neutral for anything but baiting?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Shulks better at edeguarding, has more range, survives longer, has a better recovery, better ground game, a way better grab game, better (but less consistent) mobility, his disjoints aren't much harder to land on small characters and his aerials kill earlier than clouds even without smash art on. Also having access to fast, unblockable attack (counter) whenever there are pikmin attached to shulk makes olimar be more cautious when using side b.

Counter I can understand making a difference for Shulk in that particular MU, though Cloud with Limit is far better at edgeguarding than Shulk ever is, even with Jump Monado.

 

[Jalil]

If there's one thing I learned about playing Pac-Man it's that reflectors require smart play, but don't mean a disadvantage.
It means you have to press your buttons when they matter and require a more reading based style but in no way does a reflector (especially not Pit's) make you lose as a projectile based character.

Pac being able to heal 2% off of reflected fruits or any attack that he intercepts power pellet with is good. Doesn't see like much but stacks up in the long-run. If you consistently heal off of reflected fruits opponents will think twice about reflecting something and just try avoiding them altogether which helps Pac cuz he likes attacking alongside fruits.

Counter I can understand making a difference for Shulk in that particular MU, though Cloud with Limit is far better at edgeguarding than Shulk ever is, even with Jump Monado.

That's debatable, clouds not going to always have limit and shulks edgeguarding isn't restricted jump only.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Honestly I've never felt threatened by arrows. It's not like Pit has meaningful followup from them, so being attentive with your powershielding/shielding lets Robin inch forward one step at a time and threaten with a Fair, which Pit won't be outspacing consistently with that airspeed. Would like to be proven a liar though.

If there's one thing Pit has that makes me wary, it's Dash Attack. That move is the perfect range to hit Robin in his comfort zone and reassume control. Pit can punish Robin on reaction to his Arcfire startup with that, and that's no fun.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shulks better at edeguarding, has more range, survives longer, has a better recovery, better ground game, a way better grab game, better (but less consistent) mobility, his disjoints aren't much harder to land on small characters and his aerials kill earlier than clouds even without smash art on. Also having access to fast, unblockable attack (counter) whenever there are pikmin attached to shulk makes olimar be more cautious when using side b.

You really need to break this down for me.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You really need to break this down for me.

Yea, cloud actually has OOS options. Shulk's defensive buttons are a bit on the slow side

 

[HeavyLobster]

You really need to break this down for me.

All of Cloud's grounded normals are better than Shulk's equivalents except Utilt and maybe FSmash, and those aren't by much. Shulk needs Speed Monado active for this to even be a discussion worth considering.

Yea, cloud actually has OOS options. Shulk's defensive buttons are a bit on the slow side

Shulk's offensive buttons are also on the slow side.

 

[L9999]

Taiheita for the best Lucas, and either Sethlon or Serew for the best Roy. Tremendo Dude or Nicko stands a chance for best Shulk too.

For Lucina... you got me stumped there LOL.

Yes, the options are extremely limited.

NEO- dropped her a 100 years ago.
Cherubi-The only Lucina main I can remember but yeah, he is not THE best.
That Japanese guy that play all the FE characters.
Those that got top 16 recently.
Ryo when he disrespects someone.

Take your pick.

 

[Trunks159]

While 's "ground game" may not be "better", I think you have to consider a more than tilts, smashes, jabs an grabs in a vacuum.

 

[HoSmash4]

Shu's (Top 3 Sheik Japan) bayo matchup chart
(Him, rain and a few other sheiks switched to bayo)

 

[PK Gaming]

All of Cloud's grounded normals are better than Shulk's equivalents except Utilt and maybe FSmash, and those aren't by much. Shulk needs Speed Monado active for this to even be a discussion worth considering.

Shulk's offensive buttons are also on the slow side.

Cloud's Utilt is definitely better than Shulk's. It's much faster, has a better grounded hitbox and it combos better.

How do you feel about Nairo losing to Mr. II? Surely the matchup can't be THAT bad.

It's pretty dreadful. Just watch any of the many (many) matches between Dath and Nickriddle. Nair cancel and neutral B cancel projectiles, she's hella mobile and doesn't really care about Robin's kit, bodies Robin's recovery for free.

 

[HeavyLobster]

While 's "ground game" may not be "better", I think you have to consider a more than tilts, smashes, jabs an grabs in a vacuum.

So we also need to account for Cloud's superior ground mobility whenever Shulk's not in Speed Monado. Also how limit charging forces approaches, while you can usually just wait out a particular Monado you don't want to deal with vs. Shulk. Playing as Cloud is like playing as Shulk, only you get smaller versions of all of the Monado buffs except Shield and Smash all the time, and you can get Smash by holding down-B, and of course you're also playing with Monado Frame, which reduces the startup and endlag of all your moves by 1.2x.

 

[sedrf]

Surprised that shu thinks the sheik mu isn't as bad. Maybe because he played sheik.

 

[LancerStaff]

If there's one thing I learned about playing Pac-Man it's that reflectors require smart play, but don't mean a disadvantage.
It means you have to press your buttons when they matter and require a more reading based style but in no way does a reflector (especially not Pit's) make you lose as a projectile based character.

In this case, Robin mains can bait out lolupperdash.
Stage Control is really good to have and if Pit wants to counter that he must use a certain attack.
And that's where you know what your opponent is gonna do and you can punish.

Last but not least, what Robin would use Arcthunder in neutral for anything but baiting?

It's important to note what projectiles Upperdash wins against because most it loses to...

Arrows do a better job of dealing with Robin's projectiles then any of his other moves.

Oh yeah, something I remembered since you brought up Pac. Z-dropping tomes is a really bad idea against Pit since the shields block the attack and reflects the tome. Similarly it's a bad idea for Pac. Reflecting a Z-dropped Key kills at like 30-40%, a tome would probably be 50-60%.

Honestly I've never felt threatened by arrows. It's not like Pit has meaningful followup from them, so being attentive with your powershielding/shielding lets Robin inch forward one step at a time and threaten with a Fair, which Pit won't be outspacing consistently with that airspeed. Would like to be proven a liar though.

If there's one thing Pit has that makes me wary, it's Dash Attack. That move is the perfect range to hit Robin in his comfort zone and reassume control. Pit can punish Robin on reaction to his Arcfire startup with that, and that's no fun.

Pit's not going to fire them predictably... Since Robin's so slow, charging arrows and baiting/punishing dodges would be optimal, especially since the knockback is fairly high for a projectile after that and it puts Robin back almost in the same place where he started. If you're bad at predicting how Pit's going to shoot (being unreactable with enough charge and all) it's going to be a loooong walk.

Pit's Fair and Bair have slightly less startup and equal or greater disjoint then Robin's Fair, so it's not impossible for Pit to challenge it... Wether or not that's a good idea I'd have to look into. It's not like Pit can't challenge an aerial approach from Robin other ways though.

Eh. From my end it feels like Pit kinda just nullifies or ignores a bunch Robin's strengths. Checkmate only kills fast fallers right?

 

[Jalil]

All of Cloud's grounded normals are better than Shulk's equivalents except Utilt and maybe FSmash, and those aren't by much. Shulk needs Speed Monado active for this to even be a discussion worth considering.

Shulk's offensive buttons are also on the slow side.

Yeah, ignored listing frame data in the things shulk has over cloud cuz that's just a straight up lie.
Clouds dtilt has it's uses like ducking under projectiles but shulks dtilt is safe and incorporated in his natural gameplan. Clouds is used as more of a mixup.
Clouds and shulks ftilt serve similar purposes but shulks kills earlier.
Shulks up tilt is slower but outranges clouds, is a better anti air and lasts longer. In jump, up tilt combos into fair and air slash.
Clouds jab is faster and links better than shulks.
Clouds dash attack has better vertical range and is faster while shulks moves him further horizontally and kills earlier iirc (feel free to correct me on this)
Clouds down smash is better, faster and a more practical kill move.
Shulks fsmash has more range. In buster it does a lot shield damage and is realatively safe. Down tilt-->fsmash isn't a block string but can break a full shield if the opponents caught shielding too much. In smash art it kills earlier than clouds.
Up smash isn't used much by shulk but since it has two hitboxes, it's easier for catching ledge getup/jumps than clouds and kills earlier. Clouds is a better anti air

 

[FullMoon]

Shu's (Top 3 Sheik Japan) bayo matchup chart
(Him, rain and a few other sheiks switched to bayo)

I'm kinda confused in how I'm supposed to read this MU chart

 

[Jalil]

Yeah, ignored listing frame data in the things shulk has over cloud cuz that's just a straight up lie.
Clouds dtilt has it's uses like ducking under projectiles but shulks dtilt is safe and incorporated in his natural gameplan. Clouds is used as more of a mixup.
Clouds and shulks ftilt serve similar purposes but shulks kills earlier.
Shulks up tilt is slower but outranges clouds, is a better anti air and lasts longer. In jump, up tilt combos into fair and air slash.
Clouds jab is faster and links better than shulks.
Clouds dash attack has better vertical range and is faster while shulks moves him further horizontally and kills earlier iirc (feel free to correct me on this)
Clouds down smash is better, faster and a more practical kill move.
Shulks fsmash has more range. In buster it does a lot shield damage and is realatively safe. Down tilt-->fsmash isn't a block string but can break a full shield if the opponents caught shielding too much. In smash art it kills earlier than clouds.
Up smash isn't used much by shulk but since it has two hitboxes, it's easier for catching ledge getup/jumps than clouds and kills earlier. Clouds is a better anti air

You really need to break this down for me.

Which part(s) do you want me to explain?
Sorry for the double post yall. Forgot to add it to my last reply

 

[Mr. Johan]

Pit's not going to fire them predictably... Since Robin's so slow, charging arrows and baiting/punishing dodges would be optimal, especially since the knockback is fairly high for a projectile after that and it puts Robin back almost in the same place where he started. If you're bad at predicting how Pit's going to shoot (being unreactable with enough charge and all) it's going to be a loooong walk.

Pit's Fair and Bair have slightly less startup and equal or greater disjoint then Robin's Fair, so it's not impossible for Pit to challenge it... Wether or not that's a good idea I'd have to look into. It's not like Pit can't challenge an aerial approach from Robin other ways though.

Eh. From my end it feels like Pit kinda just nullifies or ignores a bunch Robin's strengths. Checkmate only kills fast fallers right?

Whether you charge them or not, they're going to lose to shield anyway. Robin has 6 or 8 minutes on the clock and Pit doesn't have a burst option to get himself to the other side, he can wait.

Pit Fair I can see outranging Levin Fair, but with how Robin wants to hit with it, I don't think those two moves will meet each other. That hitbox is straight horizontal, iirc?, and Robin likes to be either slightly above or slightly below his target when he throws out his own Fair. And its autocanceling property makes Fair a good consistent bait to force bad spacing against the move. Fair's an approach tool but it's also a bait tool, forcing opponents to deal with it in ways Robin wants them to. I fully admit to theorycraft here though.

Checkmate works on every character, and with the exception of Charizard (because of invincible Fly and SA Rock Smash) kills for a % range at least 25% wide. In Pit's case, it's killing from 95% to 128%. That's without rage, so with a few arrows tacked on, it's killing sooner.

 

[Trunks159]

So we also need to account for Cloud's superior ground mobility whenever Shulk's not in Speed Monado. Also how limit charging forces approaches, while you can usually just wait out a particular Monado you don't want to deal with vs. Shulk. Playing as Cloud is like playing as Shulk, only you get smaller versions of all of the Monado buffs except Shield and Smash all the time, and you can get Smash by holding down-B, and of course you're also playing with Monado Frame, which reduces the startup and endlag of all your moves by 1.2x.

Limit doesn't force approaches. If you wait out Speed, Buster comes out. Playing as Cloud vs playing as Shulk is very different.

I'm not saying Shulk's ground game is superior, but the reasons you listed don't exactly support your argument.

Neither characters' ground game are that much to write home about either way.

I'm kinda confused in how I'm supposed to read this MU chart

I'd assume B stands for even, and you can figure out the rest.

Yeah, ignored listing frame data in the things shulk has over cloud cuz that's just a straight up lie.
Clouds dtilt has it's uses like ducking under projectiles but shulks dtilt is safe and incorporated in his natural gameplan. Clouds is used as more of a mixup.
Clouds and shulks ftilt serve similar purposes but shulks kills earlier.
Shulks up tilt is slower but outranges clouds, is a better anti air and lasts longer. In jump, up tilt combos into fair and air slash.
Clouds jab is faster and links better than shulks.
Clouds dash attack has better vertical range and is faster while shulks moves him further horizontally and kills earlier iirc (feel free to correct me on this)
Clouds down smash is better, faster and a more practical kill move.
Shulks fsmash has more range. In buster it does a lot shield damage and is realatively safe. Down tilt-->fsmash isn't a block string but can break a full shield if the opponents caught shielding too much. In smash art it kills earlier than clouds.
Up smash isn't used much by shulk but since it has two hitboxes, it's easier for catching ledge getup/jumps than clouds and kills earlier. Clouds is a better anti air

Again, comparing attacks in a vacuum doesn't exactly advance either argument.

 

[sedrf]

I think it's worst mu to best mu