Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ligersandtigons]

Those MU's look like nonsense

how so?


on a sidenote, we should probably let @Raziek know that we're discussing his chart lol (idk if drath has an sb account)

 

[ARGHETH]

on a sidenote, we should probably let @Raziek know that we're discussing his chart lol (idk if drath has an sb account)

He does, though I'm not sure how often he checks it.
@Dathx

 

[Shaya]

I'll rescind on Pika being difficult to deal with online to an extent noticeably different to other characters.
I think the small hurtbox issues become pronounced, but I'm sure all the other issues one has to deal with in lag (i.e. amazing win buttons) is getting in the way of Pika as well.
It would be match up dependent. But my general point of "I don't like playing against this character/I can press buttons against friends and frustrate them, and an authority says the character is S tier hence it's not my fault/pika is amazing" is the most likely reason I can comprehend super pro-pika hype still existing to the extent at which there is very little individualism in opinion or judgement that exists despite there being so many opposing forces to the contrary.

Anecdotally, Zero Suit can both be easyish on wifi or just infuriatingly not worth it. The difference being whether or not I can space back airs properly. The nerfed grab active frames also means rolling away from her is a lot harder for her to deal with than it used to be. I tend to play/respect characters as if it was a real setting though (a weird mental handicap), someone I regularly train with recently showed me how silly up smash spamming on ZSS was in lag; and I'm sure we've all seen flip jump into flip jump into flip jump.
But, I've played pikas on wifi who go even with me but in person get 2 stocked (in 3 stock rulesets) over and over. Pika was very popular locally at some stage but died as those people switched to [mostly] Sheik or Mario in their droves.

I beleive cloud frame 7 u air covers a good range in front of him, no? the lasting hitbox doesnt but early hitbox covers a huge area.

It does, but it won't inherently hit low to the ground characters especially at it's maximum horizontal range. It is a very good out of shield option though.
But in contrast, Sheik can fair out of shield a down tilt from <pick xyz>, but Cloud cannot.

 

[BananaBake]

I'll hazard a guess at the rest of ZeRo's picks

Spoiler

: TLTC
: Pugwest
: Ryo
: Jerm
: Dandy Penguin
: MikeKirby
: Leo
: Big_D
: Larry Lurr
: Keitaro
: ESAM
: Bloodcross
: Day
: RDR7
: iStudying
: 8BitMan
: FOW
: Fatality
: Ranai
: Myran
: John Numbers
: Darkwolf
: 2manycooks
: lol i dunno
: Tea
: Scatt
: Komorikiri
: Abadango
: i dunno lol
: i dunno lol
: Trela
: Komorikiri
: 9B
: Dapuffster
: i dunno lol
: Chibo

You still MIGHT be able to put Pink Fresh in Lucas

 

[Djent]

Djent's kill moves groups were missing Meta Knight.

That wasn't me (though I do think it's a pretty good list).

Anyway, I just remembered that Pika's n-air did 12% in Brawl. If only it still did then he actually could kill w/ it at reasonable %s.

 

[ligersandtigons]

You still MIGHT be able to put Pink Fresh in Lucas

isn't taiheta (i think his name is) the obvious choice for lucas at this point?

 

[Megamang]

I agree that Taiheta should be the lucas selection, both results wise and the fact that Pink Fresh has moved on from lucas, at least on the public stage.


Pika's nair can kinda kill offstage, and at later percents can kill at the ledge. He has to mix you up -which is both easier and much stronger offstage- to make up for the range and his slow airspeed.

 

[bc1910]

Shaya Well, Greninja's Bair is 5 frames and still doesn't hit anyone except like Bowser on the way up. It hits much higher than Fair but still, I'd expect Fair would need a drastic reduction in startup (and thus get really overpowered) to hit on the way up. Greninja jumps really high really quickly lol, even in his short hop.

To be fair I don't mind the lack of rising aerials so much since Greninja's ground game is strong. From a ZSS perspective, she doesn't have a particularly strong ground game to back up her lack of rising aerials and poor out of dash options, so I think that's why it's a bigger deal for her. His design is top tier-esque already but, yeah, falls down in a couple of places (rising aerials, aerial frame data, out of shield game).

To be honest if I were to give one (reasonable) buff to Greninja it'd be to shave off some ending lag from Dtilt to make Dtilt Usmash more real if you hit with Dtilt up close. It's not safe on shield there, so there's still risk attached, but it'd be a nice clincher or hard OoS punish on a risky option.

The only thing I really want is old Usmash, of course~

Esam used Yoshi in one game in pools, and Corrin in two poor MUs. Esam used a secondary at this tournament and didn't go solo Pika, but your post sort of implies that opting for Corrin instead of Pikachu makes Pikachu less viable, when I don't think a secondary in one or two scenarios is good evidence for [whatever lowish Pikachu placement]. He didn't go solo Pikachu, but he did use Pikachu in probably over 90% of his matches.

Esam lost to second and third place, and in spite of some poor games, I think it was a pretty good showing from Esam. iStudying of course did great, and knocking 25th with solo Greninja is stupid, but it's sort of weird that you praised 25th and then went on to criticize Esam's 17th. Both results are good, and both players lost to other great players and poor MUs (except ZSS/Marss, who outplayed Esam hard). I really think Pika's results are way too heavily criticized, when Esam still places reasonably well and beats some amazing players. Other border high tiers would love Pika's results via Esam, but with Esam/Pika, his results are seen as a "weakness".

On the other hand, it's silly that Illuminose seems to be going by Esam's MU chart, like Pika only loses to Mario, Ness, and G&W, and treating these opinions objectively. Also that he is glossing over Pika's range and killing issues. Not saying Pika is top 10, but some of the people here saying Pika is mid tier are really stretching it.

It's not weird at all. Why did this get so many likes?

He made it sound like 25th is decimated, so ESAM must have got like 3rd, when he only got 13th (correction) with solo Pika (9th overall). 13th is of course a great placement, but it's not as good as that guy made it sound.

Using Corrin in bad MUs makes no difference, he didn't win any sets with solo Pika in top 16. I'm tempted to say he didn't win any games but I can't remember and he might have taken a game off Ally.

I don't really read this as a statement about Pika's viability either way, it's just that if you're gonna say someone who got top 32 got decimated, then your guy better have made it to losers' finals at least.

 

[ARGHETH]

Using Corrin in bad MUs makes no difference, he didn't win any sets with solo Pika in top 16. I'm tempted to say he didn't win any games but I can't remember and he might have taken a game off Ally.

He won one and lost one game with Pikachu against Ally.

 

[Das Koopa]

When did ESAM get 17th?

 

[ARGHETH]

When did ESAM get 17th?

Doubles at Genesis 3?
But yeah, he got 9th at Pound. Dunno where 17th came from.

 

[bc1910]

When did ESAM get 17th?

Correction - 13th, but he got 13th using solo Pikachu.

He got 9th overall but for anyone arguing for solo Pika's viability, you can't ignore the fact he used Corrin to beat NAKAT and get 9th. Of course if he'd beaten Ally and used Pika later it would have been different.

Few players solo-main with no backups now so this isn't hugely important, it's just that "OMG ESAM got 9th" can't be solely attributed to Pikachu.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Correction - 13th, but he got 13th using solo Pikachu.

He got 9th overall but for anyone arguing for solo Pika's viability, you can't ignore the fact he used Corrin to beat NAKAT and get 9th. Of course if he'd beaten Ally and used Pika later it would have been different.

Few players solo-main with no backups now so this isn't hugely important, it's just that "OMG ESAM got 9th" can't be solely attributed to Pikachu.

It seems to happen to poor ESAM a lot, getting knocked out of top 8 by Pikachu's worst matchup when he would probably have done great against everyone else. Hell, he might have taken the tournament if it wasn't for Mario

 

[Djent]

ESAM co-mained the 2nd best character in the game during Brawl's heydey. It's worth keeping in mind when we talk about his past consistency. People seem to think that if ESAM can't solo-main Pikachu, he isn't high tier. I mean he isn't high tier, but that's not realistic. Very few players can finish top 8 at the majority of (super)majors with a solo high-tier character. Ranai comes the closest, and he is almost superhuman. Ally will do fantastic at one event, but then get 9th at the very next one (and that's with Mario, who has one of the better matchup spreads out of the high tiers). Even with a perfected Corrin we shouldn't necessarily expect him to do as well as he did in Brawl, because Corrin isn't on the same level as the ICs were.

 

[Megamang]

Interesting you use Ally as an example/comparison, because Mario also has games where he struggles to kill and dies to rage, much like Pika. I do believe this leads to some lack of consistency for both characters, and it was a reason that pre-patch shiek was so oppressive. She consistently got kills just from grabs, and based on her design grabs are not at all hard to land (although they do make you reach and don't have great frame data, shiek can force shielding with her presence in some situations).

 

[Dre89]

I've Always thought Pacman was at least +1 on DK, Will and HIKARU seem to agree with me. The best Player in my scene mains DK and he's always been forced to switch to Lucas or not go dk at all

I think DK has a slight advantage to be honest.

Just because bair beats everything. It stops fruit, reflects hydrant, and beats anything he has up close.

I say it's only a slight advantage because he obviously forces you to approach, he's hard to gimp and hard to kill. But I think if DK is really patient and just power shields and bairs stuff he does better in the match up.

 

[adom4]

I think DK has a slight advantage to be honest.

Just because bair beats everything. It stops fruit, reflects hydrant, and beats anything he has up close.

I say it's only a slight advantage because he obviously forces you to approach, he's hard to gimp and hard to kill. But I think if DK is really patient and just power shields and bairs stuff he does better in the match up.

How is the ledge game against Pacman?
I know DK's ledge game is horrendous but how well does Pac cover the ldge against him?

 

[Dre89]

How is the ledge game against Pacman?
I know DK's ledge game is horrendous but how well does Pac cover the ldge against him?

Pretty bad, but it's bad against everyone. Pacman needs to set stuff up though to be able to cover everything, as opposed to someone like Rosa who can just stand there and punish anything you do on reaction.

 

[Routa]

If Trela won't count for Swordspider (which he shouldn't), the only player left is Nyani, and she doesn't even use it for every MU.

If Trela is best Swordspider then M2K is best Brawler. I would personally leave the best Swordspider area empty.

Also question to thous who play in Guest 1111 Mii regions... How many Mii Mains there are in your area that come to locals and stuff? Just wondering.

 

[jespoke]

Pika's "good theory" is often cited.

What is it?

To understand some of Pikachu's theory, lets look at 20XX Pikachu.

20XX Pikachu never misinputs Quick Attack.
20XX Pikachu never misses his various lag cancels.

Which leads to:
20XX Pikachu has an amazing, relentless neutral game with mixups and mindgames for every situation.
20XX Pikachu is basically unbeatable on Lylat Cruise, because the entire stage is one big Quick Attack Cancel.

Aside from Quick Attack, 20XX Pikachu also perfects U-Throw DI read -> RAR Thunder and has lots of options in disadvantage

 

[Deleted member]

I'll hazard a guess at the rest of ZeRo's picks

Spoiler

: TLTC
: Pugwest
: Ryo
: Jerm
: Dandy Penguin
: MikeKirby
: Leo
: Big_D
: Larry Lurr
: Keitaro
: ESAM
: Bloodcross
: Day
: RDR7
: iStudying
: 8BitMan
: FOW
: Fatality
: Ranai
: Myran
: John Numbers
: Darkwolf
: 2manycooks
: lol i dunno
: Tea
: Scatt
: Komorikiri
: Abadango
: i dunno lol
: i dunno lol
: Trela
: Komorikiri
: 9B
: Dapuffster
: i dunno lol
: Chibo

Taiheita for the best Lucas, and either Sethlon or Serew for the best Roy. Tremendo Dude or Nicko stands a chance for best Shulk too.

For Lucina... you got me stumped there LOL.

 

[Luco]

Hakii is also up there for Lucas. It's probably between him, Taiheta and PF. Keep in mind that Taiheta is pretty inconsistent, and for the tournaments he's shone in he's also had some relatively throw-away results that we don't really hear about. I think it could be any of these three.

DunnoBro uses Mario and stuff now doesn't he? He would have been a pretty solid pick for best DH.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

ESAM co-mained the 2nd best character in the game during Brawl's heydey. It's worth keeping in mind when we talk about his past consistency. People seem to think that if ESAM can't solo-main Pikachu, he isn't high tiereven . I mean he isn't high tier, but that's not realistic. Very few players can finish top 8 at the majority of (super)majors with a solo high-tier character. Ranai comes the closest, and he is almost superhuman. Ally will do fantastic at one event, but then get 9th at the very next one (and that's with Mario, who has one of the better matchup spreads out of the high tiers). Even with a perfected Corrin we shouldn't necessarily expect him to do as well as he did in Brawl, because Corrin isn't on the same level as the ICs were.

Don't even start this right now, we don't need more of this kind of ****. He's a high tier with good matchups against the top tiers and random losing MUs (even though literally NOBODY has tried to actually discuss a matchup and instead just say "oh this character has a disjoint, he must win the MU") I would LOVE to talk about Pikacshu's MU spread but that's never going to happen because someone is going to chime in "oh yeah ESAM lost to this character one time and had little to no MU experience so its obviously not in Pikachu's favor"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Keep in mind that Taiheta is pretty inconsistent, and for the tournaments he's shone in he's also had some relatively throw-away results that we don't really hear about.

You should check out Japan's results more often if you think that's the case.

 

[jespoke]

For the best mains of a character discussion, i think Lucina might be lumped together with Marth like Pit/Dark Pit. If Pugwest had actually brought out his Lucina more there would be more of an argument for giving it to him than just because he is the best Marth.

 

[Deleted member]

Hakii is also up there for Lucas. It's probably between him, Taiheta and PF. Keep in mind that Taiheta is pretty inconsistent, and for the tournaments he's shone in he's also had some relatively throw-away results that we don't really hear about. I think it could be any of these three.

DunnoBro uses Mario and stuff now doesn't he? He would have been a pretty solid pick for best DH.

I thought Hakii uses Corrin now? Or am I mistaken? EDIT: just saw he still plays Lucas, oops.

Pretty sure DunnoBro picked Duck Hunt back up too.

 

[Luco]

You should check out Japan's results more often if you think that's the case.

Like, I don't claim to check Japan's results very often, but in one of the more recent tournaments (Sumabato 9 specifically), Taiheta just... Didn't make it very far at all. It wasn't talked about either. From the way you're talking it sounds like a stand-alone result, but it's quite recent and I find it hard to ignore especially when he lost to Chiruchiru's who didn't make it very far either.

 

[Nobie]

I'll rescind on Pika being difficult to deal with online to an extent noticeably different to other characters.
I think the small hurtbox issues become pronounced, but I'm sure all the other issues one has to deal with in lag (i.e. amazing win buttons) is getting in the way of Pika as well.
It would be match up dependent. But my general point of "I don't like playing against this character/I can press buttons against friends and frustrate them, and an authority says the character is S tier hence it's not my fault/pika is amazing" is the most likely reason I can comprehend super pro-pika hype still existing to the extent at which there is very little individualism in opinion or judgement that exists despite there being so many opposing forces to the contrary.

The biggest issue with Pikachu online is Quick Attack. And sure, lag makes it more difficult to control Pikachu during Quick Attack, but it also becomes virtually impossible to punish if the delay is bad enough. You have to just straight up hard read the opponent constantly because by the time the startup for Quick Attack happens it's already too late. Like, the sign for Quick Attack is something along the lines of "is Pikachu currently standing still in this split second?"

It's sort of like fighting Sonic.

As for best Mii Gunner, I think it has to be ROM. With the Miis talking about how limited the characters are by 1111 movesets (to varying degrees), here is a 1111 Gunner who's actually made waves.

 

[HoSmash4]

Like, I don't claim to check Japan's results very often, but in one of the more recent tournaments (Sumabato 9 specifically), Taiheta just... Didn't make it very far at all. It wasn't talked about either. From the way you're talking it sounds like a stand-alone result, but it's quite recent and I find it hard to ignore especially when he lost to Chiruchiru's who didn't make it very far either.

This might be more of a testament to Japan's strength in depth rather than 'inconsistency' from Taiheta

 

[Greward]

Everyone in Japan is inconsistent tbh, that's because everyone is super good and upsets happen a lot.

 

[soniczx123]

Everyone in Japan is inconsistent tbh, that's because everyone is super good and upsets happen a lot.

Has there been any discussion of unbanning Bayonetta, now that it's been proven that she has cleat weaknesses and that mix ups of DI invalidates all her 0-deaths?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Like, I don't claim to check Japan's results very often, but in one of the more recent tournaments (Sumabato 9 specifically), Taiheta just... Didn't make it very far at all. It wasn't talked about either. From the way you're talking it sounds like a stand-alone result, but it's quite recent and I find it hard to ignore especially when he lost to Chiruchiru's who didn't make it very far either.

Taiheita isn't inconsistent, he plain and simply wasn't good at smash 4 until somewhat recently. Over the last two months he got wins against Atelier [2nd best Rosalina in Japan], SH [best Fox in Japan] and 9B [no introduction needed] among others.

 

[Greward]

Has there been any discussion of unbanning Bayonetta, now that it's been proven that she has cleat weaknesses and that mix ups of DI invalidates all her 0-deaths?

Just wait for next Umebura this weekend

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I'll hazard a guess at the rest of ZeRo's picks

Spoiler

: TLTC
: Pugwest
: Ryo
: Jerm
: Dandy Penguin
: MikeKirby
: Leo
: Big_D
: Larry Lurr
: Keitaro
: ESAM
: Bloodcross
: Day
: RDR7
: iStudying
: 8BitMan
: FOW
: Fatality
: Ranai
: Myran
: John Numbers
: Darkwolf
: 2manycooks
: lol i dunno
: Tea
: Scatt
: Komorikiri
: Abadango
: i dunno lol
: i dunno lol
: Trela
: Komorikiri
: 9B
: Dapuffster
: i dunno lol
: Chibo

1. Bloodcross does not play charizard anymore, he switched to fox
2. Although darkwolf is really good, he's hardly the best shulk. That title would go to Nicko, as he is getting extremely good results in SoCal for shulk standards

 

[Deleted member]

1. Bloodcross does not play charizard anymore, he switched to fox
2. Although darkwolf is really good, he's hardly the best shulk. That title would go to Nicko, as he is getting extremely good results in SoCal for shulk standards

Best Zard would most likely be @Shadow7474. Got 33rd at BH5 on a solo run using Charizard and performs well in his region. There's also BrianYDG.

 

[Das Koopa]

Bloodcross doesn't play Zard now but remember that Tweek was listed as the best Jr. in spite of the fact he dropped him. The same thing's gonna apply to Dapuffster - may not play, but he's the most "noteworthy" to list as the best main.

Best Zard would most likely be @Shadow7474. Got 33rd at BH5 on a solo run using Charizard and performs well in his region. There's also BrianYDG.

A solo run is probably more impressive that Bloodcross's secondary-ing of Zard, though.

 

[Luco]

Taiheita isn't inconsistent, he plain and simply wasn't good at smash 4 until somewhat recently. Over the last two months he got wins against Atelier [2nd best Rosalina in Japan], SH [best Fox in Japan] and 9B [no introduction needed] among others.

Pretty sure he got his win over Atelier and set win over 9B before Sumabato 9, which is why he was put up as a big name on that news title in the first place. SH I don't claim to know about though.

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

I question who would be the best Lucina main since y'know she's not used as much...

 

[Jamurai]

yeah you spelled it right. and yeah, he's best lucario right now.

Is Serge not even in with a shot as best Lucario? Dude is the only player to take sets off Leo. You've probably seen him in action but in case you haven't, defo check him out.

Aside from Quick Attack, 20XX Pikachu also perfects U-Throw DI read -> RAR Thunder

Not this again...

20XX theories aren't really relevant imo. You could make it sound like most characters could be top tier if played perfectly. Sheik for example should destroy everybody in theory but the fact is, she doesn't quite (especially post-patch). Human capability and error are relevant factors for how viable characters are.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is Serge not even in with a shot as best Lucario? Dude is the only player to take sets off Leo. You've probably seen him in action but in case you haven't, defo check him out.


Not this again...

20XX theories aren't really relevant imo. You could make it sound like most characters could be top tier if played perfectly. Sheik for example should destroy everybody in theory but the fact is, she doesn't quite (especially post-patch). Human capability and error are relevant factors for how viable characters are.

Well Motsunabe beat Rain and KEN.

Serge is still good though. I saw him play Ally the other day, and he appears pretty capable.