Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

It is strange seeing Greninja low. During the 3ds days I thought he was surely top 5, but then he got significant nerfs. However, since then, the game mechanics have changed, and he's gotten buffed again... not quite to the level of absurdity he had in 3ds, but he's overall more solid all around now. The other top tiers, including his worst matchups, have been nerfed. I'm not saying Greninja is top 5 anymore, but he's definitely a solid contender for winning tournaments by himself, so he's... up there somewhere?!

People have traditionally overrated balance changes. In the oldest versions of this game, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Greninja, Zero Suit Samus have been very highly rated. Each of them has gotten nerfed, often BIG nerfs, yet they're all still in the top echelon. Meanwhile lower tiers have gotten buffs, often BIG or numerous buffs (Kirby comes to mind here) yet they're still kept low. I forgot what point I was making, but tl;dr Greninja is good, and I'm finding him fun again. I don't even want to play Cloud anymore.

Release Greninja was a case of having a few top tier tools tacked on to an otherwise mediocre character. Mobility, dashgrab, shurikens, Usmash and Hydro Pump were all top tier, Dtilt and stock cap kill throw were good, everything else was meh. He was overnerfed for tearing up FG - you didn't have to do anything except spam shurikens, grabs and Usmash - plus he had good results in Japan, but I'm certain he'd have dropped off in usage as people figured him out. I think the other 5 you listed were all better at release and there may have been others, whilst the Sheik and Sonic MUs would both have developed into -2s.

He's much more well-rounded now. His top tier traits were mostly toned down but other stuff has been brought up to high tier level (landing lag, throw game, kill power) and he tends to have more options in any given situation as a result. He's been helped out a lot by patch mechanics changes and to be honest if you plopped release Greninja into the current patch I'm not entirely sure he'd be any better than current Greninja.

His MU spread is great with only 2-5 losing MUs depending on your opinion, all -1, with a few valuable +1s like Mario, MK and maybe ZSS. While I don't wish to oversell the character (I'm reminded of a great post by C0rvus where he made D3 sound like a top 20 character) I think he has most of the tools you'd want in a competitive main - speed, range, (kill) power, recovery, good MUs, three strong game states. I may be something of a loyalist but I'd have dropped him by now if I didn't think he could compete. I am very confident he sits in the 10-20th bracket.

 

[LancerStaff]

And judging by this + M2K's recent list, the Pits are dropping noticeably in top players' opinions.

Not sure if any of these guys thought much of the Pits to begin with...

The whole reason anybody thought highly of them to begin with because Earth got some impressive results in a short period of time. Since there hasn't been any major Japanese tournaments lately (I think?) his results have kinda cooled off for the time being.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I always thought general opinion on Pit/Dark Pit was "they don't win convincingly against anyone, but also don't lose convincingly". Very middle of the road without much to distinguish them from the cast other than disjoints and (in Pit's case) a good projectile to snipe and annoy people with. And I guess Orbitars have utility as a weird landing/ledge option.

 

[Jalil]

Release Greninja was a case of having a few top tier tools tacked on to an otherwise mediocre character. Mobility, dashgrab, shurikens, Usmash and Hydro Pump were all top tier, Dtilt and stock cap kill throw were good, everything else was meh. He was overnerfed for tearing up FG - you didn't have to do anything except spam shurikens, grabs and Usmash - plus he had good results in Japan, but I'm certain he'd have dropped off in usage as people figured him out. I think the other 5 you listed were all better at release and there may have been others, whilst the Sheik and Sonic MUs would both have developed into -2s.

He's much more well-rounded now. His top tier traits were mostly toned down but other stuff has been brought up to high tier level (landing lag, throw game, kill power) and he tends to have more options in any given situation as a result. He's been helped out a lot by patch mechanics changes and to be honest if you plopped release Greninja into the current patch I'm not entirely sure he'd be any better than current Greninja.

His MU spread is great with only 2-5 losing MUs depending on your opinion, all -1, with a few valuable +1s like Mario, MK and maybe ZSS. While I don't wish to oversell the character (I'm reminded of a great post by C0rvus where he made D3 sound like a top 20 character) I think he has most of the tools you'd want in a competitive main - speed, range, (kill) power, recovery, good MUs, three strong game states. I may be something of a loyalist but I'd have dropped him by now if I didn't think he could compete. I am very confident he sits in the 10-20th bracket.

The rest of pre patch greninja's moveset wasn't meh. In addition to the stuff you said, fair killed earlier, up air killed earlier + linked a lot better and his hurtbox was smaller which allowed him to duck under lasers. Tho ftilt had more endlag and bair + fair had a few frames more landing lag, his other moves were just as good as they are now. His smashes did get some random knockback increases through patches but he could kill overall better and safer at release. His landing was also better pre patch since hyrdopumps wind box was stronger and you could hydropump straight down while still pushing people away. You could also argue that all of his aerials had to be respected more cuz of him being able to shadow-sneak during their endlag. Just the fear of him shadow-sneaking would throw off punishes.What really helped him was the sheild stun patch. I think if greninja was never touched he would be in a similar place he's in now but his wining mu's would've been better and his losing mu's would've been worst. Tho I agree he's better off this way being well rounded like you said.

Idk if I agree with him being top tier material. He has a good mu spread but there aren't much results to back up the theory behind some matchups.

 

[ThatChozoGuy]

I always thought general opinion on Pit/Dark Pit was "they don't win convincingly against anyone, but also don't lose convincingly". Very middle of the road without much to distinguish them from the cast other than disjoints and (in Pit's case) a good projectile to snipe and annoy people with. And I guess Orbitars have utility as a weird landing/ledge option.

Iirc, the Orbitars can be pretty annoying against characters with recoveries that do not snap to the ledge, such as Cloud or Shulk. And Captain Falcon's Side-B becomes an even worse recovery option than it actually originally is because of Pit/D-Pit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

has possibly 4 losing matchups IF any, which are , , and . He could go even with all these four as well. I consider to be especially difficult if the plays it like Ranai. is easily back to top 5 in the game again. He has the tools, punishes, and option select to make any matchup hard. It's really hard to debate where he is in the meta. I think it's hard to debate where is in the meta too because the character can be also considered top 5 again at best.

I believe could beat now, but time will tell. I may just be absurdly good at the matchup. Dunno.

My tier list for those curious: https://twitter.com/SeagullSSB/status/712756448229527552

I'd say it's arguable in my tier list the exact positioning of characters within their respective tiers. I tried to put them in order. The only change I would make now from that list is moving to S tier, to E tier, and to E tier.

Corrin being A tier while Ike being C tier is really the one big headscratcher for me. For me, Ike is simply a better character almost entirely because of how much better his grab game is, and I can't see him as being worse than B tier. Corrin screams mid tier to me, as the combination of poor mobility, poor grab range, and poor throws leave a far greater weakness to shield than Cloud/Bayo, as both of them are far better at forcing you to sort of respect their grabs.

 

[Trifroze]

I've tried avoiding the word honest when it comes to characters because frankly it often just smells like self-gratification for using a certain character who in reality is likely just as dumb & jank as the rest of them (like Mario, seriously?) but if I had to throw that word at someone who's not just simply a competitively bad character, it'd be Pit. Dark Pit too, but his post patch side b can be kind of ridiculous at times. Pit seems like an all-around good character with no clearly overtuned tools or mechanics and that keeps him from being very dominant, although he seems to suffer from a lack of representation as well.

 

[juddy96]

Actually S1-14 and iStudy go back and forth a lot, I remember last Avalon iStudy won against him in winners but then lost to him at losers or something. I don't think either has a winning record against the other right now but I might be wrong.

Probably because S1 has won 4 of their last 5 sets http://byoc.challonge.com/NHS2Singles http://challonge.com/GGWP6

 

[FullMoon]

Probably because S1 has won 4 of their last 5 sets http://byoc.challonge.com/NHS2Singles http://challonge.com/GGWP6

And it's always a 3-1 lol

But yeah I wasn't aware of their latest sets. I do remember S1 visited our boards once and said that they have been going even for a long time now back in February so I mainly went off that.

 

[Ulevo]

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

 

[Pazzo.]

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

This is a subjective opinion, not a definitive reason why Pit lacks players.

For instance, I happen to like his voice acting, yet I don't use either Pits.

 

[BunbUn129]

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

Going by your opinion on Pit's voice, Fox should be F-tier.

"LAAAAYYYYYYNNNNNNDDMUSTEEEEEEERRRRRRDDDD!"

 

[LancerStaff]

Iirc, the Orbitars can be pretty annoying against characters with recoveries that do not snap to the ledge, such as Cloud or Shulk. And Captain Falcon's Side-B becomes an even worse recovery option than it actually originally is because of Pit/D-Pit.

Cloud more then Shulk, since Shulk's sword goes up at a diagonal and can poke Pit if he's not spaced just so. Meanwhile Little Mac is questioning his existence with this move existing, lol.

Also did hilarious things to prepatch Hydro Pump being a reflector and a windbox.

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

By that logic the female characters wouldn't have so devoted of mains since almost all of them are so darned screechy or just plain don't match the character's actions... And I don't think everybody hates his voice. Brawl voice maybe, but not SSB4's.

See, I don't think Cloud and Mario existing is a detriment to the character. He arguably wins against them, the two most common characters. Definitely wins against scrub Clouds who can't recover properly, hehe.

 

[PK Gaming]

This is a subjective opinion, not a definitive reason why Pit lacks players.

For instance, I happen to like his voice acting, yet I don't use either Pits.

Pretty sure he was just making a dry joke.

I super disagree though, Anthony Del Rio's Pit is greaaaat.

 

[Red Stache]

I always thought general opinion on Pit/Dark Pit was "they don't win convincingly against anyone, but also don't lose convincingly". Very middle of the road without much to distinguish them from the cast other than disjoints and (in Pit's case) a good projectile to snipe and annoy people with. And I guess Orbitars have utility as a weird landing/ledge option.

Basically what I usually see when it comes to Pit and Dark Pit.
I mean, there are probably only few match-ups where they lose more poorly then others, but that is still open for debate on some of them. Same thing with winning match-ups too.

Still, kinda curious how they go from here.

Going by your opinion on Pit's voice, Fox should be F-tier.

Made me realize then that based on that, Sonic should the E-tier.

 

[Zelder]

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

How is this the opinion I've disagreed most with in this whole thread

 

[Y2Kay]

Not everyone has to be this sexy lone wolf cool guy (I'm looking at you Cloud) for their voice acting to be good. Pit's dorky personality fits his voice perfectly, and I find it adorable.

Antony Del Rio (his voice actor) is actually suave and cool as a mug.

His voice sounds like a nice blend of pit and dark pit.

Anyway.......

Pit may be honest but he's definitely not average. The startup on his moves are ridiculously good. Dash attack is frame 7, and down smash is frame 5. A lot of characters would love to have stuff like that. His edguarding, juggling, and combo game is on par with those of other high tiers

I don't know, it just seems like when Pit became the poster boy for being "perfectly balanced!" People decided to not give him credit where it's due.

It seems like labels have also affected a character.... Kinda like Mewtwo no where near as bad tho.

I seem him being in that 15-20 range right now.

 

[BunbUn129]

If character voice played a role in viability, my boy would be SSS-tier.

Just sayin'.

Pit is one of those characters whose placement I can neither agree with nor disagree with because frankly I don't know anything about the character.

Edit: for those who don't know, Kurogane Hammer has been updated: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm sorry but Ryu ****s on everyone.

"The journey...has just begun" *Looks at the sky*

On topic: Pits not lame enough. Pits not scary enough. Facts

 

[BananaBake]

The problem with Pit is that he is annoying, and Mario and Cloud exist. If his voice acting was not so atrocious and Mario and Cloud were not as good as they are for the amount of time needed to see results with them, Pit might have reasonable representation.

Not trying to start a war here, but voice acting should have nothing to do with rep. Second, saying P/DP aren't represented because there are better characters is so redundant. Time needed is also a factor sure, but look at how long it took Zero to learn pre-patch Sheik

 

[HoSmash4]

And it's always a 3-1 lol

But yeah I wasn't aware of their latest sets. I do remember S1 visited our boards once and said that they have been going even for a long time now back in February so I mainly went off that.

Yeah from the NL players i've talked to S1/Istudying have are pretty much considered even. Theres a clear top player in Mr.R, two of Europes best in S1/iStudying whilst the other players are at least one level below. Not to say the likes of @Meru, Catana and Badr arent players to take lightly though.

 

[bc1910]

S1/iStudy is only in S1's favour as of the last Avalon. It was dead even before. And the last Avalon was before Greninja's buffs.

LancerStaff I was mostly going by ZeRo putting the Pits 16th on his tier list. And I find top players generally think (thought?) highly of them, otherwise they'd never have ended up so high on the BR list.

---

I don't think the Pits are top 20 any more. After the top 14, I think the top 20 is rounded out by Greninja, Corrin, Falcon, Toon Link, Lucario and Donkey Kong. The Pits just face really heavy competition. I'd put ROB and Mewtwo above them as well.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm sorry but Ryu ****s on everyone.

"The journey...has just begun" *Looks at the sky*

On topic: Pits not lame enough. Pits not scary enough. Facts

smh that's not even his best quote

"Talk is cheap!"

Totally conveys that he's on a higher level than pretty much anyone in the roster. Everyone else fights for glory, fun, etc, but fighting is his lifestyle.

To keep things vaguely on topic: Pit just needs more players, straight up. The side effect of having such a large roster is that good characters sometimes slip through the cracks. Pit has the potential to do well, it's just that his playerbase is anemic.

 

[Pazzo.]

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

 

[ThatChozoGuy]

smh that's not even his best quote

"Talk is cheap!"

Totally conveys that he's on a higher level than pretty much anyone in the roster. Everyone else fights for glory, fun, etc, but fighting is his lifestyle.

To keep things vaguely on topic: Pit just needs more players, straight up. The side effect of having such a large roster is that good characters sometimes slip through the cracks. Pit has the potential to do well, it's just that his playerbase is anemic.

I personally feel like he already does pretty well. Earth is a great player, and while Nairo doesn't play him as much as before, many people have been inspired to play Pit and DPit because of him, just like with Robin.

I feel what Pit really lacks is just one great game in an American tourney. As someone who goes sometimes to tourneys here in France (even though I'm really not good haha), the character is quite liked by certain amateurs.
But someone has to light the fire I guess.

 

[Y2Kay]

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

Because Cloud exists

 

[Amadeus9]

Because pit's niches is already filled by other fighters, who are better

multijump swordsman - meta knight
balanced swordsman - cloud
being uninteresting but good - cloud, mario

Like really why play Pit when cloud and mk exist, either one fills his shoes and goes much further.

 

[DizzyChicks]

RYU BOYS
RYU BOYS
RYU BOIS

 

[bc1910]

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

Comes down to a few reasons IMO but ultimately, there's just not much reason to use him.

Pit doesn't have a particularly extensive combo game and his damage output isn't top tier. His kill moves are unsafe, don't kill 'til high % and he lacks kill setups; all the high/top tiers except Falcon and Lucario have strong kill setups (and those two have insane raw kill moves).

The "sword + great frame data" niche is filled by Cloud and he straight up does it better. Corrin is worth a mention too.

And, as shallow as it may seem, Pit's not "cool". He's not a popular character or from a popular game series. Whilst you could argue this is subjective, I think the lack of hype around Pit plus Kid Icarus' lacklustre sales does the talking.

 

[C0rvus]

Others have already said it: Pit is never the best choice. Players who want a solid character to compete with have a long list of choices in this game. Pit is just... basic. Not silly enough in any way to stand out. Even if you're looking for a fundamentals based character, others can give you more bang for your buck with easier neutral and stronger reward (Cloud, Mario, Falcon, Ness). You want a sword character? Corrin and Meta Knight are better, and Ike, Robin, etc give you a more specialized character to work with.

Maybe you'll play Pit if you're a big KI fan, and these players certainly exist. There was a user who used to regularly post in this thread (Wintropy) who filled this niche. He's not bad, but nothing about him stands way out of threatens you when you play against him.

I maintain the opinion that he's a solid secondary. His MU spread has a lot of evens and -1's but knowledge of the opponent + fundamentals will get you pretty far with the Pits.

 

[TurboLink]

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

People who play to win don't like balanced characters?

There are reasons to play Pit.

You might want a more all-around "sword" character. I think Pit fits that niche. He might not have the extreme strengths (Pre-patch Sheik's Needle Storm, Cloud's Limit Gauge, Bayonetta's Witch Time, and etc.) that other characters have but he also doesn't have any extreme weaknesses.

 

[Dinoman96]

I love Kid Icarus Uprising but I never found Pit particularly satisfying to play. He just always felt too weak to me. Not to say he's bad or anything, but he just never did it for me.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

Despite strong enough combos & a few interesting mixups, Pit remains an overall unrewarding character to the eyes of many smashers. Some may feel he's just too average, moreso than Mario who already has a few impressive points about him. Also, Pit is probably one of the most consistent characters in the game, which once again leads into a lack of enjoyment for some smashers, even the basics elements such as how hits feels are gone with Pit ( DPit's Side B aside )
I'd go as far as to say all characters in the game can & will feel more rewarding in the right hands than Pit, either by consistency in one's zoning/spacing game, or by the use of risky yet rewarding mixups that will give the player the feeling of worthiness.

I guess Pit's state in the metagame also makes him kind of unpopular: He's good, but may not be good enough, you might want to just play a top tier. As dumb as you may think of this reflection, this has probably happened more than once.

 

[Nobie]

smh that's not even his best quote

"Talk is cheap!"

Totally conveys that he's on a higher level than pretty much anyone in the roster. Everyone else fights for glory, fun, etc, but fighting is his lifestyle.

To keep things vaguely on topic: Pit just needs more players, straight up. The side effect of having such a large roster is that good characters sometimes slip through the cracks. Pit has the potential to do well, it's just that his playerbase is anemic.

What's interesting is that in Japanese he doesn't say, "Talk is cheap!" Instead, he says, "Let's have a conversation with our fists!"

The former sounds like, "Let's get down to business." The latter sounds more like, "We're fighters, and we communicate by fighting." </G Gundam>

 

[L9999]

Can someone explain to me what makes Kamui a top 20 character?

 

[Megamang]

Pit has a niche in the arrows being incredible projectiles, and with Cloud everywhere he might gain some popularity for his ability to both contest limit camping with chip damage, juggle well, snipe jumps offstage, and gimp cloud with GO.

His dash attack, d-smash, and in some ways his usmash are all incredibly tools. Whenever i die to usmash I feel like I died before the power would really indicate, since it starts you up really high it basically has you hit from a half platform up. These things matter! It also allows him to poach platforms.

His grab game is much stronger than Cloud's, for the most part, and this is huge when shields are so useful. A forward facing kill throw is pretty great as well. He certainly has his strengths. I think Electroshock buffs are enough to really help him out in feeling powerful, his landing traps are almost top tier if you land anywhere besides dead center on the stage.


His lack of repreasentation is a little confusing. He has things over Cloud! But, I guess Cloud is more rewarding initially.

At one point, the very top player on smashladder was a dark pit solo main.


EDIT: Kamui threaten's so much space, has a confirming projectile/kill move that makes amazing landing traps if you are versed in its usage (drift away -> paralzyed to lance confirm, land on-> light paralyze -> full bite kills). He has great normals, solid specials... kinda meh mobility but with that asterisk. She also has some strong lower percentage combos that make her zoning really scary early in the game, cause you can get hit with a stray dtilt and suddenly you are in a bad situation. Fsmash is a tool that not many other characters can claim, and it also obliterates landings and forces you off the ledge. He has crazy ledge coverage too, with the lance and the DFS he can really really hurt you for any particular option...

And he is heavy. Idk, hes good.

 

[bc1910]

Can someone explain to me what makes Kamui a top 20 character?

Side B and Nair.

She's fairly average otherwise. Counter Surge is still strong but has very reasonable counterplay. To be fair, she also has good range on everything and good frame data for her range. Maybe average isn't the right word...

I don't think she's top 15 like some people are saying, but she earns her place in top 20.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Side B and Nair.

She's fairly average otherwise. Counter Surge is still strong but has very reasonable counterplay. To be fair, she also has good range on everything and good frame data for her range. Maybe average isn't the right word...

I don't think she's top 15 like some people are saying, but she earns her place in top 20.

Except that Ganon tier grab range, and pretty mediocre throws overall. I think it's understated how big of a weakness that is in neutral. Corrin actually has to work very hard to get people out of shield, especially since tools for covering retreat and roll back are not very consistent.

Plus people need to lab edgeguarding the character more. It realistically is not hard as long as you know what trades with Up-B.

 

[FullMoon]

Doesn't Corrin have pretty good kill throws? That's always a nice thing to have in throw game.

 

[Muster]

What's interesting is that in Japanese he doesn't say, "Talk is cheap!" Instead, he says, "Let's have a conversation with our fists!"

The former sounds like, "Let's get down to business." The latter sounds more like, "We're fighters, and we communicate by fighting." </G Gundam>

"talk with our fists" fits a lot better too, imo, it matches what Ryu says in story stuff more closely.
"A clenched fist speaks louder than a hundred words."

Can someone explain to me what makes Kamui a top 20 character?

Kamui is pretty fast considering he has many well ranged attacks, but i'm not sure if he is still top 20 after losing that ridiculous counter surge and much of the power on his uair

I wonder why...?

What about Pit causes player to pass over him?

It may just be the fact that 2 nearly identical characters are taking up 2 spots on the CSS. Lucina and Dr. Mario have pretty large changes to their kits in relation to the original, but pit and dark pit are almost exactly the same barring 2 moves iirc. It may just seem like pit and dark pit doesn't have a lot of players because they're all spread out among the 2 characters.