Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[KERO]

To be honest I don't think even Greninja mains fully understand how SSHC works. I tried labbing it once but I didn't get much out of it.

But still, wow, I wasn't expecting SSHC to be that consistent against ZSS, I'm gonna have to lab the MU later. So far I've always put the MU as even.

Popping in here to explain everything I know regarding SSHC (and a bit about SS in general). So, basically, as mentioned, if Greninja is hit by any attack that does not send him into tumble, he can activate the moving shadow portion of the move. The way Shadow Sneak works is that the moment you let go of the special button, as long as the shadow is out, Greninja immediately cancels any action he is currently in and performs the move. Greninja is able to put the shadow out at any time except in the following situations: currently using another move, dodging, recovering from lag of any sort, already has a shadow up, in hitstun that puts him into tumble, in helpless, during the first part of his bounce/bonk animation from Hydro Pump, if his shield is broken, in a daze, asleep, in the process of dying in the blastzone, lying on the ground, teching, grabbing the ledge, or being footstooled and the resulting tumble (until he can normally act out of it). Curiously, Greninja can Shadow Sneak out of shield, but he does so immediately, without being able to wait for the shadow to move forward. If Greninja suffers hitstun of any kind, falls into water, crashes/techs into the ground out of tumble, falls asleep, or dies, the shadow is canceled. Additionally, as a friend pointed out to me a few weeks ago, if Greninja has the shadow activated and is footstooled, he can immediately cancel the footstool animation with Shadow Sneak. There are a couple of other qualities to the move, but those aren't super important to the discussion.

Moving on to the specifics of SSHC, one important thing to note is that there is actually a very brief minimum amount of time that Greninja must wait before the move's animation can even start so that the shadow moves out a bit from Greinja. I'm sure Lavani or someone else probably has the exact frame data somewhere, but that is a big reason why we can't use it to escape some of the faster multi-hit moves, in addition to Greninja having eleven frames of vulnerability upon activating it before he disappears. Secondly, during the SSHC, Greninja sometimes bounces and sometimes doesn't and falls instead (and drags the SS hitbox with it, allowing it to sometimes punish opponents). This happens for pretty much the same reason stall-and-fall Dairs don't work properly when you use them while in knockback. If the SSHC is activated as early as possible, it seems the low knockback from the attack can take priority over the bounce, and the result is Greninja just dropping like a rock since he doesn't bounce like normal and the low knockback is small enough to where it essentially has zero effect on him besides taking away that bounce. However, in some cases (like Sheik Uair), if Greninja waits a couple frames longer before activating it the move itself (shadow can be sent out whenever), since that's just enough time for the effect of the knockback to end, he gets the normal Shadow Sneak bounce stuff. Basically, buffering the Shadow Sneak will always guarantee Greninja has the bounce properties of the move ignored while later reactions will usually have him undergo the bounce properties (except, perhaps, in really extreme cases of the low knockback lasting a long time).

Couple of other interesting things about Shadow Sneak: has five frames of vulnerability upon re-appearing before the hitbox comes out, and for absolutely no reason, it cannot hit opponents that are lying on the ground (not even someone with a large hurtbox like R.O.B.)... even though I know it can hit something as low as Charizard hanging on the ledge. Also, it has 38 frames of endlag, so in cases where a Greninja is using it a lot, anticipating it can lead to a huge punish... unless they really are just purely reacting the moment they are hit which would be incredible since there's maybe a one to five frame window for most of the moves/combos it's useful on.

Edit: Additionally, turns out, escaping hitstun also applies to when Greninja is being paralyzed as long as the resulting knockback afterward doesn't put him into tumble. He can literally Shadow Sneak out of being paralyzed. Not sure how I didn't know that until now. Come to think of it, I wonder if putting the shadow out comes out any earlier than using other moves. Probably wouldn't matter much given its slow start-up and all, but still something worth testing if possible (I don't have the means to unfortunately).

Anyway, in regard to ZSS/Greninja MU stuff or anything else in here... I'm not very good at analyzing those kinds of things, so I think I'll just get back to lurking.

 

[Trifroze]

When I'm thinking dsmash to bair, I don't mean hitting the opponent right out of dsmash stun. Doing that is reliable, but compared to fsmash and up b it's weak, even weaker than going for flip kick. If you want to make dsmash to bair rewarding, you wait for the opponent to get launched further forward from dsmash and then bair them, but this requires you to read their approximate DI (i.e. whether they hold up or down and away for instance).

For now I'll stop insisting on the implications of SSHC vs ZSS, whether it's a big deal or not will hopefully be seen with time. The closer the matchup is to being played optimally though, the more effect I think it'll have. My jimmies may have been rustled, but it shouldn't have any weight on what I've written here. Reasoning is reasoning no matter what's behind it.

A guaranteed break (and punish) on Boost Kick OoS/Spotdodge is nice, no doubt. But any character can DI out of grounded Boost Kick if they read ZSS' movement accordingly, and sometimes they just pop out. It's like, okay, Greninja can do something 100% of the time, but it happens vs other characters 33-50% of the time anyway and it hasn't really held her back.

I made an entire video on boost kick to find out seemingly all there is to find out about it. The only way to get out of it is to guess right and even then ZSS can make up for it with proper reaction. In most cases it's nothing unrealistic and it's doable by anyone offline. Also, if the opponent does get out this way they still stay in tumble and can't punish her. It's too rewarding not to go for unless it's a situation where you know your rage increases the opponent's knockback in a way that they're low enough for hit 7 to stop their tumble but too high to be hit by the finisher, hence being able to punish you.

If ZSS isn't at well above 80-100% or your opponent is simply a higher midweight / heavyweight character aside from a couple exceptions, there's absolutely no reason not to go for boost kick OoS on someone unsafely hitting your shield when they're at kill percents. Often it's worth going for even if they're not.

Also thanks KERO for the explanation.

 

[Yonder]

S@X 3/29/2016 Top 16

1st: Pink Fresh ()
2nd: Remzi (, )
3rd: Zage ()
4th: Mr. Eric ()
5th: Mik ()
5th: DunnoBro (, )
7th: Seryender ( )
7th: Logic ()
9th: Zephyr ()
9th: Dexter (,)
9th: Boss ()
9th: NSM Nika ()
13th: Snow ()
13th: Techei ()
13th: AoH|Nature ()
13th: Kaboom ()

Woah! A wild Jigglypuff appeared!

 

[Gideon Warrior]

How is the vs MU now that she has been hit with nerfs this hard? I always wondered... Since it's clear to me that Sheik now loses to characters as most likely. I find that this matchup might be far more even now, and actually hype without the constant spam of Needles. also definitely goes even against her, and Sheik struggling for the kill now is a good thing for Mewtwo.

Also it seems to me is easily 'the new '.. So many people hop on her bandwagon of Witch Time + -easy auto combos + pre-patched 's automatic ladder. It's kind of disheartening. And I agree with ZeRo that she's a cancer to the current metagame. She DOES invalidate characters like Sheik did, but thank God she loses a couple of matchups. I've read here that many people think beats her, and I tend to agree with it. As Banana really screws Bayonetta up, and Diddy's neutral is able to deal with Bayonetta the best. I think this alone, plus recent results make an easy contender for Top 5, possibly Top 3 even.

What are people's opinion on in this patch? I don't see him getting as many results as earlier. Is this Cloud bandwagon dying already, and moving unto ? I wonder...

I'm intrigued by Mew2Kings high rating of Rob, i think he overlooked the problems rob has offstage and trying to land. As well as being massive combo food. Rob has great advantages to him though but nothing overpowering like sonic speed, Luma, cloud limit or fox Uair.

I actually agree that is HUGELY overlooked, and his results are amazing to boot. It helps he hasn't been hit with patches I guess, but he's consistantly getting great results all over. I might wanna pick him up as a secondary actually now I think of it...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Since it's clear to me that Sheik now loses to characters as most likely.

That's neither "clear" nor "likely". In fact, Sheik may very well not lose to any of those characters.

Edit: I know for a fact Fox doesn't beat her. The matchup honestly hasn't changed much at all.

 

[L9999]

S@X 3/29/2016 Top 16

1st: Pink Fresh ()
2nd: Remzi (, )
3rd: Zage ()
4th: Mr. Eric ()
5th: Mik ()
5th: DunnoBro (, )
7th: Seryender ( )
7th: Logic ()
9th: Zephyr ()
9th: Dexter (,)
9th: Boss ()
9th: NSM Nika ()
13th: Snow ()
13th: Techei ()
13th: AoH|Nature ()
13th: Kaboom ()

Lucina at 9th and Jigglypuff 7th at a 120 man tournament. Wow. Also, didn't Dunnobro gave up on DHD?

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Fox definitely doesn't win the Sheik MU now. It's just more even than before. Fox still can't reasonably do anything until Sheik's combos stop working on him around 40-50% and Fox's damage racking ability makes getting back those percents not that difficult. Sheik has a hard time killing, but a rogue BF offstage can still net early kills and isn't uncommon against a recovering Fox. Most of what makes Fox good (i.e. his advantage) is more or less useless cause "BF to safety" until a good read is made and if Sheik AND Fox lives til past 120%? Neither are dying until really high percents.

It's just a really fast-paced MU with a lot of low-mid percent combos and then trying to find a good read to net the stock (or nair/dair/ftilt from Fox, but... they can be teched 90% of the time and ftilt/dair/aerial needles from Sheik at the same percents Fox's kill confirms work). Basically the same as pre-patch with less stress once Fox hits 90%.

 

[bc1910]

ROB's results are good, not amazing. He's reasonably common in top 8s and top 16s but he doesn't have any top level presence.

M2K kind of looked at his strengths whilst completely ignoring his weaknesses. His disadvantage state is one of the worst in the game and having solid disadvantages against two top 5 characters (ZSS and Rosa) isn't something to be glossed over (I don't see Bayo being much better than -2 either). As before, I think ROB should beat any character without good anti-zoning tools or a strong advantage state, but almost every high tier has at least one of those. I could see ROB around 20th but I can't see him higher with there being such strong competition for top 15/20.

Also can people please stop claiming Sheik has random losing MUs lol? We still have no idea who she loses to. Mario was looking likely, but Mr R vs Ally hardly played out any different. Diddy and Cloud can contest her very well onstage, but her edgeguarding game is completely intact and very strong against both characters. I have no idea why she'd suddenly lose to Pikachu or Fox when she won pretty decisively against both pre-patch.

This isn't to say Sheik isn't weaker because she is without a doubt worse in every MU, that's what happens when you get a pretty harsh nerf. But you don't suddenly go from being the best character with no losing MUs to having a slew of -1s and -2s against random high tiers, when most of what made you the best character is still intact.

 

[Illuminose]

btw Mr. R vs Ally actually played out a lot different bc1910 . Before the patch, Mr. R was 2-4 (to my knowledge) against Ally. One of those wins was a grand finals reset and the other was EVO; he lost to Ally at both fall nationals he went to (Paragon and MLG), and he even lost at Midwest Mayhem just before Outfoxx'd. Outfoxx'd was the first time Mr. R in a while that Mr. R actually did well against Ally and exposed Sheik's heavy neutral advantage in the matchup. Fundamentally I think Sheik did well in the matchup because of neutral and I don't really feel the matchup will change much as a result (it could be even now maybe?).

Pikachu will probably change to his favor slightly because the reason Sheik won the matchup WAS actually her 50-50. Consistently out-killing Pikachu gave Sheik a slight edge in the matchup because it's kind of hard to exploit Sheik otherwise. Now that Pikachu is better at this than Sheik, it's very reasonable that he could have a slight edge in the matchup. Neutral was always contested (now even moreso because of fair and needle nerfs), and Pikachu has some pretty hard punishes on Sheik. Pikachu has options to get raw kills and a throw kill confirm, while Sheik simply does not.

She still beats Fox, but definitely loses to Sonic and Rosa. Sonic was already practically even before the patch with Sheik's needle interruptions and consistent kill combo. I could honestly seeing this be to the tune of 60-40 Sonic's favor, but we shall see. Rosa's hard because the fair changes make it harder to space fairs, which is so critical against Rosa. Dealing with rage Rosalina is bonkers too and now Sheik has that issue for longer. Preemptively would say it's 55-45 in Rosa's favor, though I could see it being even too depending on how certain aspects of the matchup shake out.

I'm also not buying this Diddy vs Sheik talk. Watch Mr. R vs Zinoto from Outfoxx'd. The reason Sheik won the matchup was because she exploits Diddy much harder while he's in disadvantage and fundamentally wins neutral because Diddy has to commit harder and relies more on mixups to deal with Sheik's safety. These things didn't change, so the matchup being in Diddy's favor to me is kind of ridiculous. I can see even perhaps, but in Diddy's favor? No.

 

[bc1910]

Ally had a positive record against Mr R before and maintains it now, is what I meant.

Mr R doing better now is just further proof of Sheik still beating or going even with Mario.

Do we really need to go over the fact that Pikachu does NOT have a proper throw confirm? Like, really?

 

[David Viran]

Anti said pre patch that sheik destroyed mario and that other sheiks just don't play the MU right. He then said that when he played ally at Do or DI? he made him switch off of mario because anti's sheik beat ally's mario so bad.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

That wouldn't surprise me at all, tbh. Sheik's neutral is just so overwhelming. Watching Mr. R basically decimate Ally at OUTFOXX'D all because he decided to play a little slower than normal proved that. Combine that with Anti's ridiculous footsies and spacing and it's a recipe for disaster when your only kills are from hard reads or lucky guesses (i.e. Mario).

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Sheik > Mario so long as the Sheik just plays a little slower and doesn't overcommit at high percents. Sheik just has to be content with doing small tidbits of damage here and there until fair will kill, but this doesn't really put Sheik at any risk from Mario's combos.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik losing her 50/50 is almost a non-factor against Fox because she gets the vast majority of her kills against him through offstage bouncing fish. Low percent combos via fthrow being harder to get, the weight nerf and less range on her needles are slight changes to the matchup that probably add up to shifting it from 60/40 to 55/45 in Sheik's favor. Not nothing but not big enough a deal to push it in Fox' favor.

I really don't see how Mario is supposed to have the advantage. Ally vs Mr r has already distorted the matchup in the past, now that Ramin has started to figure out the matchup a bit better he's even winning with a nerfed Sheik. It's almost certainly still in Sheik's favor and used to be a lot less closer to even than a lot of people thought pre-patch. Solid +1 for Sheik now imo, I honestly think it used to be +2 for Sheik easily.
Sonic vs Sheik is probably even. The things that I'd expect to come into play in that matchup are the weight nerf and the needle nerf. Both are mostly quality of life buffs for Sonic that are nice to have but don't really make a big difference overall. They may make a bigger difference in mid-level play where Sonic players tend to rely on Spindash too much but in top level play I expect this matchup to be just as even as previous results indicated.

 

[Illusion.]

To be honest I don't think even Greninja mains fully understand how SSHC works. I tried labbing it once but I didn't get much out of it.

But still, wow, I wasn't expecting SSHC to be that consistent against ZSS, I'm gonna have to lab the MU later. So far I've always put the MU as even.

https://gfycat.com/TenseDiscreteAlleycat

I find it really easy to do, honestly.

 

[webbedspace]

Competitive Impressions thread timeline
2014: "Half the roster is in top 15"
2015: "Half the roster is in top 15 with customs"
2016: "Half the roster beats Sheik"

ROB is interesting because for much of 2015 it was consistently in top 8 of many locals/regionals courtesy of mains like 8Bitman/Holy/that ROB main who was on Shockwave a lot (sorry)… but hadn't gotten much traction in the more prestigious regions like California or New Jersey.

 

[FullMoon]

https://gfycat.com/TenseDiscreteAlleycat

I find it really easy to do, honestly.

I was talking more about her other moves than Up-B specifically, Boost Kick is pretty to escape from all things considered

Also did that person ragequit? lol

 

[verbatim]

For what it's worth I think we should still wait until we see something like void vs mvd or zinoto before jumping to conclusions about the Sheik Diddy Kong match. From watching Mr. R play both of them pre and post patch I'd argue that the biggest takeaway is that he's overcome his Diddy Kong problem with a vengeance. The level of banana control he has in the matchup and his general vs Diddy Kong specific tendencies are insane for someone that doesn't actually play the monkey.

 

[Illusion.]

I was talking more about her other moves than Up-B specifically, Boost Kick is pretty to escape from all things considered

Also did that person ragequit? lol

Yup lol, he's a friend of mine though so he didn't do it with any mean intent.

 

[bc1910]

https://gfycat.com/TenseDiscreteAlleycat

I find it really easy to do, honestly.

Whilst this is funny, Boost Kick is her easiest move to get out of (I labbed it myself and there's even a 100% consistent single press timing; no mashing required) and can be done on reaction. I actually said that already lol. This doesn't disprove what we were saying.

Now if you could do this on reaction to raw Fsmash I'd be impressed.

 

[Y2Kay]

Though I never label ZSS as more than even, I must admit that I beat a majority of ZSS main's I play.

I wanna say we slightly win the matchup, but none of the ZSS main's I play have MU knowledge. When they play against me, they always find out about Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel.

The same goes for pre patch Metaknight too. If they don't know that the Ladder doesn't work on me, they kinda lose there composure.

They usually switch to their secondary immediately afterwards.

 

[Illusion.]

Whilst this is funny, Boost Kick is her easiest move to get out of (I labbed it myself and there's even a 100% consistent single press timing; no mashing required) and can be done on reaction. I actually said that already lol. This doesn't disprove what we were saying.

Now if you could do this on reaction to raw Fsmash I'd be impressed.

I read through the discussion rather quickly since I was in a rush and didn't notice it until FullMoon mentioned it in his post quoting me.

Anyways, it's hard to do it on Fsmash since nobody uses it; it's not expected. I've only done it once and it was because the opponent was slightly charging it.

 

[Gideon Warrior]

Competitive Impressions thread timeline
2014: "Half the roster is in top 15"
2015: "Half the roster is in top 15 with customs"
2016: "Half the roster beats Sheik"

ROB is interesting because for much of 2015 it was consistently in top 8 of many locals/regionals courtesy of mains like 8Bitman/Holy/that ROB main who was on Shockwave a lot (sorry)… but hadn't gotten much traction in the more prestigious regions like California or New Jersey.

Sheik's nerfs are probably the biggest out of any other character's nerfs so far, at a point where she was undeniably the biggest treat of the metagame. She is still Top 10 easily, but I don't believe her to be Top 5 anymore, or if she is she has HUGE competition for the spot. Is it that hard to accept she has losing matchups now? Mario might've been strechted a bit, so was Fox (even tho it's clearly far easier for Fox now) but am actually quite certain about Diddy and Sonic winning now. These two characters where pretty much EVEN with Sheik pre-patch, I don't see how she isn't losing now. Diddy vs Rosalina was also a clear +2 for Diddy before the Hoo-Hah nerfs, but now it's probably +1 for Rosalina.

Is the fact that Sheik is no longer the best character in the game with no losing matchups so unacceptable?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Though I never label ZSS as more than even, I must admit that I beat a majority of ZSS main's I play.

I wanna say we slightly win the matchup, but none of the ZSS main's I play have MU knowledge. When they play against me, they always find out about Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel.

The same goes for pre patch Metaknight too. If they don't know that the Ladder doesn't work on me, they kinda lose there composure.

They usually switch to their secondary immediately afterwards.

For some reason I had a random vision of Meta Knight anticipating the SSHC and using Dimensional Cape to avoid it while landing a counter strike. Would that even work?

 

[Jams.]

Anyway, M2K made a video saying pretty much exactly what I was saying before about threatening someone offstage in order to bait and punish their reaction. What really interests me about M2K's analysis though is ROB. I remember he was abnormally high on Thinkaman's results-based tier list a while back, and now top players are starting to recognise him. I remember there was a time when he was in the high tier guard along with Falcon and Yoshi and friends and then everyone kinda started pushing him down the roster. I don't really know who his top players are, but I wonder if he belongs in high or even top tier potentially. I was definitely surprised to learn his Uair beats Cloud's Dair clean and Dthrow --> Uair is obviously still a thing. His main issues seem to be juggle-food, large hurtbox and problematic recovery. I don't know good or bad his MU spread is either.

8bitman is probably his best rep and performs the best at nationals, but he's currently taking a break from Smash due to a busy semester at school. Past that it's near impossible to rank ROBs since they're all from different regions and many of them don't travel. ROB also has good representation at a high level in Europe but kind of died off in Japan. He is an indirect beneficiary of the current patch, which may have improved his ZSS MU to the point where ROB could be reasonably solo viable though certainly near the bottom of the list for solo viable characters. He also arguably performs relatively well versus both top tier DLC characters, which is a huge step up from last patch where both Sheik and ZSS destroyed him.

Also, ROB's uair can't beat Cloud's dair directly. It will always lose to sweetspot dair, though it can beat the lingering hit if you challenge Cloud's dair at an angle so that you poke his feet without touching the Buster Sword. The only move ROB has that cleanly beats Cloud's dair is usmash, which isn't reliable unless Cloud is being really predictable.

 

[BunbUn129]

"______ now beats Sheik, because Sheik can't kill anymore." --Every goddamn Smasher, 2016

So Sheik loses the 50/50 and now suddenly someone like beats her? Yes, Sheik has a harder time KOing, but when you realize she still has the best projectile in the game and the best frame data, both of which grant her a superb neutral game, and excellent damage racking abilities, along with a non-existent disadvantage state, she's a fantastic character. If anything, Sheik now has only a handful of losing MU's, and we can deduce she still beats most of the cast--just not as dominantly as before. Top level Sheiks are only performing marginally worse than before.

What's the difference between Sheik pre- and post-patch?

To sum it up: 1.1.4 Sheik trashed everyone, 1.1.5 Sheik beats nearly everyone but gives everyone a fair fighting chance.

If your character lost to her pre-patch, they still likely lose to her.

Edit: regarding the vs MU, there's a chance it's actually even now. Sheik still wins neutral and racks up damage, but MK should be able to go toe to toe off survivability and superior KO power. It's important to note that from ~110-120% pre-patch, Sheik's down throw true comboed into up aerial and KOed Meta Knight. Yes, a TRUE combo, not a 50-50. Now MK can actually live. The Tyrant vs Void set demonstrates how differently an MK match goes against an opponent with reliable KOing ability and an opponent who doesn't. Though the more recent 3-0 by Void on Tyrant tells otherwise.

Furthermore, a problem MK had, and a major reason why he got trashed in neutral, was how much commital his forward aerial had. MK likes to empty-hop a lot in neutral, but in the Sheik MU, she could just jump up and swat him with her fair, and he couldn't do anything:

1) if he faired, it would generally be beaten by her fair (MK's is frame 9, compared to Sheik at frame 5), and even disregarding that, he would have to suffer 20 frames of landing lag, so Sheik would just grab.

2) if he air dodged, 22 frames of landing lag, and another grab punish.

3) jump away, but then Sheik's superior air speed and acceleration meant she could just give chase, and even then, being above Sheik is not good for MK.

4) nothing, and Sheik would punish him as though he had committed to any of the other options.

Now, I can actually swing the forward aerial with relative safety.


I myself say it probably is 55-45 against MK now (the MK mains who said this pre-patch have turned out to be right: I'm sorry, guys)

 

[FullMoon]

"______ now beats Sheik, because Sheik can't kill anymore." --Every goddamn Smasher, 2016

Meanwhile Greninja mains are celebrating the fact that it's a -1 MU now

 

[Gideon Warrior]

"______ now beats Sheik, because Sheik can't kill anymore." --Every goddamn Smasher, 2016

Yet it was acceptable when it happened with Diddy Kong earlier. As stated before, Diddy with Hoo-Hah definitely beat Rosalina HARD, and now it's +1 for Rosalina, probably Diddy's worst match up even! And as stated before, Diddy and Sonic where already even with Sheik pre-patch, with especially good results to boot on Diddy's side. Yet Diddy can't beat Sheik outrightely now? The Stockholm Syndrome still has it's effect, and it's ugly.

Don't you people have any labbing with Bayonetta to do?

 

[NotLiquid]

7th: Seryender ( )

Everything is different now

 

[warionumbah2]

Void double eliminated Tyrant and won 3-0 in GFs(Tyrant went Diddy in one of those games) at MSM 43.

WF: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/57304423?t=3h34m50s
GF: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/57304423?t=?t=4h24m32s

This is after Void had more time with the new Sheik, Tyrant beating a brand new Sheik a few days after the patch dropped shouldn't reflect how the MU goes at all. It would be better if Leo got to play Void for many reasons but that chance won't come in a long time, a patch might drop again by the time Leo comes to the US. Tyrant plays exactly the same as he did pre patch, this will come to haunt him later or its already begun to haunt him as SM(Ike) and Zenyou(Mario) had no trouble vs his MK but were taken aback by his Diddy.

Fair doesn't seem like a good tool vs Sheik. She'll always punish it on whiff with her dash attack.

 

[DanGR]

Yet it was acceptable when it happened with Diddy Kong earlier. As stated before, Diddy with Hoo-Hah definitely beat Rosalina HARD, and now it's +1 for Rosalina, probably Diddy's worst match up even! And as stated before, Diddy and Sonic where already even with Sheik pre-patch, with especially good results to boot on Diddy's side. Yet Diddy can't beat Sheik outrightely now? The Stockholm Syndrome still has it's effect, and it's ugly.

Don't you people have any labbing with Bayonetta to do?

I don't care to debate you on this, but I have to ask where you're getting the idea that Rosalina wins that matchup- decisively, at that. Are you just theorizing? Or are their recent tournament results of top level Diddy vs. Rosa play substantiating this claim? I'd be thrilled to see the latter.

 

[Coffee™]

Whilst this is funny, Boost Kick is her easiest move to get out of (I labbed it myself and there's even a 100% consistent single press timing; no mashing required) and can be done on reaction. I actually said that already lol. This doesn't disprove what we were saying.

Now if you could do this on reaction to raw Fsmash I'd be impressed.

You likely can't do it on reaction to raw fsmash but what zss even does that? As far as the other moves that Trifroze mentioned as long as you are predicting the situation you can consistently sshc out of all of those moves.

I myself have no issue consistently getting out of most of ZSS' multi-hit moves. Sshc is definitely very relevant in the matchup.

Meanwhile Greninja mains are celebrating the fact that it's a -1 MU now

It might not even be that bad. The reduction in Fairs range is one of the biggest things for Greninja in the matchup as it allows him to better challenge her with his own aerials.

The reduction in needle range is also significant as he can actually play a ranged game against her now as shurikens and needles have similar range, yet shurikens out damage needles.

Shiek also has to be very careful against a Greninja in rage as uthrow kills her fairly early and uthrow to uair can combo and kill even earlier.

-1 is about the worst it can get at this point but I think we need to see this particular matchup played out more before simply assuming it's bad.

 

[Gideon Warrior]

I don't care to debate you on this, but I have to ask where you're getting the idea that Rosalina wins that matchup- decisively, at that. Are you just theorizing? Or are their recent tournament results of top level Diddy vs. Rosa play substantiating this claim? I'd be thrilled to see the latter.

Dabuz beats Zinoto pretty consistantly, or so I've heard. To be honest, I just take it as it's a common Diddy Kong player's knowledge ever since the patch. We played Diddy pre-patch, and now, and it's just a major difference in the match up. First of all, we now lack the Hoo-Hah to kill off Rosalina consistantly. D Tilt to U Smash or Banana to F Smash is a lot less reliable on Rosalina because of Luma. F Air being nerfed also hurt a LOT in this matchup as it was previously our Number One get-away-from-me move against Luma, now it barely knocks Luma back. U Air also could easily sweep Luma away when it was still crazy-strong and send Luma to the sky. Now? An U Air barely makes Luma flinch. Many Diddy players would agree that the matchup pre-nerfs is a LOT different than it used to be.

 

[Nobie]

Thinking more about how often Mewtwo fights with his back facing the ledge, I recently realized that being close to the ledge helps Mewtwo in one other way besides netting early back throw KOs.

Specifically, if Mewtwo's at the ledge and shields an attack, he doesn't slide as far. This lets him punish attacks that he wouldn't be able to otherwise.

 

[[BROF]]

Serynder getting that high of a placement is nice but not that big of a surprise if you follow that scene.
He fills the timeout niche with Jiggs pretty nicely. I can only imagine what he would be able to do with a 8 min 3 stocks format. Timeouts galore.

Is there any other notable solo Puff main?

 

[Djent]

Gideon Warrior Zinoto double-eliminated Dabuz the last time they played, and AFAIK he consistently beats Rayquaza as well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dabuz beats Zinoto pretty consistantly, or so I've heard.

Zinoto double eliminated him at landlocked which was the last time those who have played.

 

[Game7a1]

Serynder getting that high of a placement is nice but not that big of a surprise if you follow that scene.
He fills the timeout niche with Jiggs pretty nicely. I can only imagine what he would be able to do with a 8 min 3 stocks format. Timeouts galore.

Is there any other notable solo Puff main?

There's RDR7 (7th in South Carolina). He's posted in this thread before.
Looking at the power ranking directory thread, the only others are Purin (25th in Chicago), Rocket (8th in Rio Grande Valley), and Geez (4th in Newfoundland). Of course, since March is ending, some PRs may be updated next month, and the ones I mentioned may either move up, down, or out of their respective PRs.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Serynder getting that high of a placement is nice but not that big of a surprise if you follow that scene.
He fills the timeout niche with Jiggs pretty nicely. I can only imagine what he would be able to do with a 8 min 3 stocks format. Timeouts galore.

Is there any other notable solo Puff main?

RDR7, (South Carolina). He's beaten Rango and Eldin before, and he said on the Jigglypuff discord that he got to last stock last hit aganist Esam in friendlies.

 

[bc1910]

You likely can't do it on reaction to raw fsmash but what zss even does that? As far as the other moves that Trifroze mentioned as long as you are predicting the situation you can consistently sshc out of all of those moves.

I myself have no issue consistently getting out of most of ZSS' multi-hit moves. Sshc is definitely very relevant in the matchup.



It might not even be that bad. The reduction in Fairs range is one of the biggest things for Greninja in the matchup as it allows him to better challenge her with his own aerials.

The reduction in needle range is also significant as he can actually play a ranged game against her now as shurikens and needles have similar range, yet shurikens out damage needles.

Shiek also has to be very careful against a Greninja in rage as uthrow kills her fairly early and uthrow to uair can combo and kill even earlier.

-1 is about the worst it can get at this point but I think we need to see this particular matchup played out more before simply assuming it's bad.

Yes but if they are reading/reacting to the SSHCs themselves you are just going to get grabbed half the time anyway. I maintain that Boost Kick is the only move of hers against which SSHC is extremely useful. Otherwise it turns a couple of hit confirms into 50/50s. And I mean, that's still useful, but it's not a gamechanger.

Though I will note that in my personal experience, I also usually beat ZSS players with Greninja. You don't get that same sense of dread as when someone picks Sonic, Diddy or even Cloud. It does feel like one of his best top tier MUs and, as I said before, a potential +1.

Also I don't see how Sheik would be better than -1. I don't think you can go from being roadblocked by a character to going even with her that easily. Though the MU is substantially easier thanks to the reasons you've mentioned - I don't wish to rebut your points, I just think they bring the MU to -1 rather than 0. Sheik still has a lot of pre-patch strengths against Greninja including suffocating CQC and an underrated edgeguard game.

Though if I'm not mistaken you thought Sheik was 60:40 before the patch The evidence would suggest that Sheik was 65:35 if not 70:30 but at least I can see how you're reaching this conclusion, if you never thought the MU was that bad in the first place.

 

[Trifroze]

I just have to point out that matchups are often turned around by the slightest of things, and invalidating one of the most important moves of a character and making several other moves less consistent is easily in that realm.