Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ligersandtigons]

@Kumamaru

I worded my original post weirdly. I was talking about Witch Twist's usage in general, not only OoS. I know I said "A frame 4 OoS move..." but I meant a frame 4 move that can be used OoS.

Regardless, I still feel like Witch Twist, even when baited out, is still too safe. Bayo just has way too many options out've a whiffed Twist. Off the top of my head, she can divekick in 2 directions, ABK in 2 directions, jump, airdodge, Witch Time, Nair, or Fair. IIRC, you can only challenge Twist in the middle of it's animation if you have a disjoint.

 

[Lavani]

On an interesting note, this means that low pokes/low hitting moves are a solid answer to this move.

I didn't know that much, actually. Figured just her entire body was the hitbox but this might give me some labbing ideas *dtilts intensify*

Oops sorry I forgot one.

[DREAM CANCEL]

Not really sure how you were expecting to dtilt a frame 4 move reliably though lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oops sorry I forgot one.

[DREAM CANCEL]

Not really sure how you were expecting to dtilt a frame 4 move reliably though lol

It was a half joke but thanks for ruining my fun.

 

[Megamang]

She doesnt oos witch twist, she just runs up and tries it over and over again until you try and contest it and it beats out your disjoint inexplicably.

I think she'd be fine if that move either didnt lead to combos as well, didnt have such stupid hitboxes that it beat out anything, or had wayyy more endlag if it whiffs. As of right now, the risk/reward is stupidly skewed for a f4 move, and theres no reason to not play like ty.

 

[S_B]

Honestly, I feel like Smash 4 is headed towards this Shan Gri La-Super Street Fighter 4 esque balance where you'll see more variety at tournaments, and that genuinely makes me very happy.

Absolutely could not agree more.

Fighting games are supposed to be, you know, balanced.

Shame it took Sakurai leaving for them to finally be able to tone down the top tier, but now that they're continuing to balance it, there's hope that more characters will be competitively viable, making for a far more interesting tournament scene overall.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I honestly think this is exaggerated. Bayonetta does not have the greatest neutral so for what she can get combos started with, they're pretty sparse. DTilt does not have that much range. FTilt string is YMMV. RHK and Heel Slide are super telegraphable and should probably be used to punish projectiles. Jab is 8 frames which is SLOWER than the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser with less safety. If we want to talk throws, her range is poor and her throws only start having combo value at mid-percents from my experience.

I'm not saying she's bad, but to say she can get that much damage off of little commitment is inaccurate.

This is a reason why I hope she'll be nerfed some more. Pay2win is never nice. I want Bayo to be viable, but she might just turn out to be the next Sheik if her metagame develops.

 

[san.]

Here's how I see it.Her real neutral is bullet arts. She's bait and punish incarnate. And on those moves:

How is it that her DTilt has more range than Corrin and Ike? I need to check this out, but it probably gets beaten by their DTilts for what I assume is a hurtbox on DTilt.

I tried it. I see range is different than disjoint. Hers might be able to be counterpoked unlike Corrin's and Ike's depending on how easy it is to avoid clanking.

On UTilt, the range for that move is strictly in front of her so it's more practical as anti-air than a standard footsies move. Otherwise, I find the move is better during advantage, not neutral.

I was mostly referencing the frame data, but it's a solid enough tool on a mixup or after a crossup with decent enough reward (fair) for the risk.

Low startup and low recovery with good mobility does not make a character have strong neutral. Not necessarily anyway. Hell, if we go off those two moves alone, she has a very predictable neutral.

Every character with a top neutral have a plethora of low startup and recovery moves with good mobility, unless they are given oppressive projectiles to make up for a lack of those. (Bayonetta has an decent shield cancellable one).

That's pretty much what I would define good neutral or capable of good neutral. Maybe we have a differing of opinion due to this buzzword?

I didn't want to go into a lot of detail to make a shorter post, but you can do a lot with even a 4 frame jump squat, good aerials, movement speed, and a projectile. Bayonetta would've been weak up close if not the combination of dtilt and witch twist allowing her to stuff grabs and short ranged attacks, counter poke, and setup for damaging attacks.

Great, fast aerials while leaving the opponent with the guessing game of witch time (MUCH better to deal with this after the patch though) as well as other tricks goes into more complex scenarios.

I probably sound like a crazy person for not making a big deal out of anyone's tools.


An OOS Witch Twist happens less likely if the opponent knows how to bait out shield or even Witch Time only for her to get grabbed. I only mentioned Witch Time as it's also free to throws.

Her tools even in neutral seem like the upper echelon at the very least to me, but I see a general opinion (may not be you specifically) that her neutral is lackluster (saw the same for ZSS). Just confused what that means. I interpret it as holes in their attacks or strategies.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bayonetta witch twist might be the best combo starter in the game. It's free, completely safe, done out of dash or shield or a combo breaker and can lead to death. Let's not forget you can use 3 witch twists a double jump and a side b to recover with bayonetta.

Ok a slow jab but it's like frame 8 and what tilts do 20 damage? Her jab is witch twist anyways.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Pre-patch Sheik was badly designed because her main weakness was finishing stocks yet Sheik players obviously bypassed that.

So is it safe to say that Witch Twist is badly designed too? Because, as Sakurai stated himself in the direct, Bayonetta's main weakness is her slow start up, but to me, it seems like Witch Twist bypasses that weakness.

I feel like a frame 4 OoS move that starts death combos and is safe even when whiffed nullifies Bayonetta's key weakness the same way the 50/50 nullified Sheik's.

Forgot to mention in this post, but another problem I have with Bayonetta is that she's able to bypass another intended weakness. In the direct, Sakurai also mentioned how Bayonetta's landing lag increases depending on how many Twists and ABK's you use before landing. Obviously the intention was to add more risk to balance the reward for going for those super long combos. Yet Bayonetta is able to completely nullify that weakness as well because she can just land with a charged neutral B and then cancel with shield the moment she lands. Obviously, landing with neutral B is predictable and can be punished, but that's not the point.

 

[juddy96]

Abadango's Character Spread last night

2-0 vs. Cross Igarashi
2-0 vs. Laki
2-0 vs. Kisha
(game 1, loss) (games 2-3, win x2) vs. Motsunabe
2-0 vs. KEN
2-1 vs. Songun
0-2 vs. Nyanko
2-1 vs. Kamemushi
3-2, 3-0 vs. Nyanko

https://twitter.com/Abadango_/status/711506563412811776

 

[C0rvus]

I don't see why Bayo won't get nerfed again. The dev team decided it wasn't okay for Meta Knight to have his ceiling combo, but Bayo's is okay? I don't know. Better to work on counterplay and learning everything we can about Bayonetta in the meantime.

What even is the best Bayonetta combo for killing early? It'll be easier to work on counterplay if we can identify what combo is the best one.

 

[Charoite]

Bayonetta is still more weak that 1.1.4, and in this patch you can bait and punish more against her because witch time is less spammable, of course you still need to play lame against bayo, she is still top 5, but she is not as frustrating or powerful as 1.1.4, remember that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

@Kumamaru

I worded my original post weirdly. I was talking about Witch Twist's usage in general, not only OoS. I know I said "A frame 4 OoS move..." but I meant a frame 4 move that can be used OoS.

Regardless, I still feel like Witch Twist, even when baited out, is still too safe. Bayo just has way too many options out've a whiffed Twist. Off the top of my head, she can divekick in 2 directions, ABK in 2 directions, jump, airdodge, Witch Time, Nair, or Fair. IIRC, you can only challenge Twist in the middle of it's animation if you have a disjoint.

lol. This thread is funny because when a DLC gets released I basically CALL that characters meta and why its silly and then like 2 months later everyone else catches up.

 

[HoSmash4]

Bayonetta is still more weak that 1.1.4, and in this patch you can bait and punish more against her because witch time is less spammable, of course you still need to play lame against bayo, she is still top 5, but she is not as frustrating or powerful as 1.1.4, remember that.

Side-b and witch time were pretty unsafe when used too much, this just means bayonettas won't commit to their unsafe options and just rinse and repeat their safe witch twists and downwards ABK to start combos. Let's not forget witch time was never designed to be spammed as that never worked at top level play.

 

[Diddy Kong]

does diddy actually have any bad MUs? except for rosa.
i believe sheik is even now.

Villager is troublesome because of Pocket taking away such a vital tool for Diddy as the Banana. Outside of that, I experience Pikachu as slightly more difficult, and Cloud (maybe, it's mostly matchup inexperience for me). Other than that, I doubt Diddy has anything to really worry about. It's also noticable that ZeRo absolutely BODIED ESAM's Pikachu in friendlies with his Diddy. So yeah, Diddy is still the most likely character to win things alone. Diddy + Cloud might be the best combination in the game as stated by someone else earlier in the thread.

Also, Mr.R losing to Ally might not mean that Sheik is that much worse... Mr.R might've had trouble adjusting to the matchup. It's a real big demotivation to learn all your matchups from stratch because options got taken away. This is why it took Diddy up till... well, now to actually be noticed. Even tho the character has solid results, and with solid I mean; second only to Sheik.

 

[juddy96]

I think people are overlooking the fact that Mr. R had a losing record against Ally in Smash 4 even before the patch.

 

[TDK]

I love how we actually have candidates for a number 1 spot instead of a clear favourite. Those candidates being

You could make a valid case for any of them.

 

[NotLiquid]

I don't see why Bayo won't get nerfed again. The dev team decided it wasn't okay for Meta Knight to have his ceiling combo, but Bayo's is okay? I don't know. Better to work on counterplay and learning everything we can about Bayonetta in the meantime.

What even is the best Bayonetta combo for killing early? It'll be easier to work on counterplay if we can identify what combo is the best one.

I feel like even a skeleton team can't stick around forever to "fix" Smash 4. One more balance patch to cover Bayo and Corrin was somewhat given since they can't predict how that turns out, and I honestly feel like that's the only reason we got an additional patch which had the decency to thankfully alter a lot of other characters in the process (it's hard to believe that the Meta Knight nerf would have happened if it weren't for Abadango's performance at Niconico since Bayo/Corrin were already done at that point).

The more time goes on the more you gotta expect there to be less patches. If this is the final version of Smash 4 we'll be settled with I imagine the loss is less about top characters getting more nerfed (right now even the Top 3 has some considerable weaknesses) - it'll be more about low-to-mid characters not getting buffed.

Also Ally probably takes the award for most unconstructive top professional right now. If ZeRo was salty about the current state of Smash 4, Ally is insufferable.

 

[C0rvus]

Last time I thought we were done with patches, we got this one out of nowhere. It's not over until it's over, and if we get another one, Bayonetta is likely on the chopping block. That's all I'm saying.

If this is the final game, I'm very happy with it.

Ally is very salty and non constructive, but he says stuff that a lot of people are thinking. He also has no obligation to be anything.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I love how we actually have candidates for a number 1 spot instead of a clear favourite. Those candidates being :4cloid:

You could make a valid case for any of them.

B-b-but Diddy is better than all 3 of them!

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Since we're talking about Bayonetta, this was just uploaded. Keef Crew is funny as hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mw_VY7O0JQ

 

[Baby_Sneak]

i can't wait til patching stops

 

[Nabbitnator]

Just. A question. The initial witch twist is safe but if you take bayonetta to stages like smash ville, fd, or any stage that doesn't give her many options to go doesn't that make the second option unsafe depending on the character? I know faster characters can chase her down when she tries to escape too. If you can some how restrict or take notice of where she can I go then I think that would help a lot in general. (I've also been seeing such things like requesting to ban her which I think is ludicrous.)

Other then that I'm hoping that was the last patch so we can actually learn the match ups instead of wanting to nerf everything. The comparison to ssf4 to be when most of the characters were crap if we continue to nerf.

 

[bc1910]

Dunno if anyone's ever played Playstation All Stars, but Bayo is strikingly similar to Kat. Right down to the instant OTG and insane divekick. No other character, in either game, has options that compare.

Kat was banned about a week after her release.

(Kat was actually broken, but still, it's funny how the same powerful traits can carry over from very different games with the same fundamentals.)

 

[Megamang]

Are people waiting for a patch to play the game competitively? Is there some hidden force im missing that will propel the meta as soon as we know that fixing obviously broken things is over? Have you guys really never played a competitive game with patches?

*it takes until the 4th smash game to get suppport for the competitive community*

'Ugh. When will this support go away'
- Smash players I dont understand.

 

[wedl!!]

Amazing revelation I had:

Insulting people who don't play videogames like you do doesn't make you funny or smart

 

[Y2Kay]

I thing people should do everyone a favor and follow this simple rule:

When a character gets changed by patches, leave the labbing to that character's mains.

People rediscovering things an actual main of said character would have known about already is obviously unhelpful.

 

[thehard]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios
http://challonge.com/Frsmash4top8

Final Round 19 w/ ANTi, Fatality, Scatt, Rango, Day, Player-1

And there's a 14 year old Sonic named Wrath who took out Reflex

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Are people waiting for a patch to play the game competitively? Is there some hidden force im missing that will propel the meta as soon as we know that fixing obviously broken things is over? Have you guys really never played a competitive game with patches?

*it takes until the 4th smash game to get suppport for the competitive community*

'Ugh. When will this support go away'
- Smash players I dont understand.

There nothing left to be fixed. That's the point.

Besides like, buffing poor jiggly, D3, etc... And giving nerfs to bayo I guess, there's not a thing In the game worth patching over.

 

[Megamang]

Im not trying to prove anything about myself. Im just legitimately baffled how this is such a prevalent idea, that development of matchups or the meta is somehow stunted by patch support. Doubly so when all of the patches have been great for balance, and immediately give people new outlook and stuff to lab in those MUs... yet doesnt change the approach to the MUs, except in the cases where 'avoid death grab always' is removed or added. Even then, this doesnt undo the labbing you have done, except if you excessively labbed a certain polarizing setup. But that isnt really learning a MU regardless.

They arent making more money off this game. They are simply making it better. Of course, this has monetary value in the long term, but being more willing to buy from a company that gives a **** about extended lifetime and balance of their games is a win win. So why do we complain about it, including top players? The only thing i can think of is that we are totally new to balance patches as an idea. I seriously dont get it.

And im not targeting anyone. I hear it locally and on streams constantly. Cant wait for the meta to settle! But a settled meta is so much more plain

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Im not trying to prove anything about myself. Im just legitimately baffled how this is such a prevalent idea, that development of matchups or the meta is somehow stunted by patch support. Doubly so when all of the patches have been great for balance, and immediately give people new outlook and stuff to lab in those MUs... yet doesnt change the approach to the MUs, except in the cases where 'avoid death grab always' is removed or added. Even then, this doesnt undo the labbing you have done, except if you excessively labbed a certain polarizing setup. But that isnt really learning a MU regardless.

They arent making more money off this game. They are simply making it better. Of course, this has monetary value in the long term, but being more willing to buy from a company that gives a **** about extended lifetime and balance of their games is a win win. So why do we complain about it, including top players? The only thing i can think of is that we are totally new to balance patches as an idea. I seriously dont get it.

And im not targeting anyone. I hear it locally and on streams constantly. Cant wait for the meta to settle! But a settled meta is so much more plain

Patches undo some of the work and changes the very fabric of the game. Do this constantly and you make the game very unstable. Not patching it allows the game to breathe and settle and nourish to bloom into something more nuanced instead of being plain and surface-ish since the players can't get too deep into it or else their work will amount to waste, with MK, Luigi, Sheik, ZSS, and others being a prime example (let's ignore the "oh it's justified their tools were mighty oppressive" and focus on the fact that their players worked hard and were labbing the crap out of them and then a lot of their work went down the drain).

Oh and a settled meta is definitely not plain since it's in the beautiful stage of a game where we're finally focusing fully on the player instead of worrying about which character they're playing or something. 64 and melee are a prime example of that imo.

 

[Asdioh]

There nothing left to be fixed. That's the point.

Besides like, buffing poor jiggly, D3, etc... And giving nerfs to bayo I guess, there's not a thing In the game worth patching over.

Until (insert your character here ) is realistically capable of winning a national, there's always stuff left to be fixed!

Im not trying to prove anything about myself. Im just legitimately baffled how this is such a prevalent idea, that development of matchups or the meta is somehow stunted by patch support. Doubly so when all of the patches have been great for balance, and immediately give people new outlook and stuff to lab in those MUs... yet doesnt change the approach to the MUs, except in the cases where 'avoid death grab always' is removed or added. Even then, this doesnt undo the labbing you have done, except if you excessively labbed a certain polarizing setup. But that isnt really learning a MU regardless.

They arent making more money off this game. They are simply making it better. Of course, this has monetary value in the long term, but being more willing to buy from a company that gives a **** about extended lifetime and balance of their games is a win win. So why do we complain about it, including top players? The only thing i can think of is that we are totally new to balance patches as an idea. I seriously dont get it.

And im not targeting anyone. I hear it locally and on streams constantly. Cant wait for the meta to settle! But a settled meta is so much more plain

I agree with everything you've been saying, though I don't think a 'settled' meta is plain. Melee is a prime example, it's been the same game all these 14 years, but every year seems to bring different results. Smash 4 might not have each matchup be as individually deep as each Melee matchup, but there will always be a lot more relevant matchups, meaning there will always be something to improve on.

Patches undo some of the work and changes the very fabric of the game. Do this constantly and you make the game very unstable. Not patching it allows the game to breathe and settle and nourish to bloom into something more nuanced instead of being plain and surface-ish since the players can't get too deep into it or else their work will amount to waste, with MK, Luigi, Sheik, ZSS, and others being a prime example (let's ignore the "oh it's justified their tools were mighty oppressive" and focus on the fact that their players worked hard and were labbing the crap out of them and then a lot of their work went down the drain).

I dunno, every patch has been... good, plain and simple. There are some minor questionable changes that were made, but overall, the balance of the game has gotten closer as time goes on. It's just that mains of certain former-god-tier characters are looking back with salt-colored glasses

 

[Shady Shaymin]

A lot of people in this community have been lamenting the fact that the strongest character in this meta will probably be a DLC character, and that the game will be "pay to win". I honestly think blanket statements like "pay to win" are idiotic, especially in a game like this with such solid character balance and a flourishing, increasingly large high tier threshold, but I do agree that the best character in the game should not cost $5.99. Ideally, DLC characters should be fun, very viable fighters with anti-meta characteristics and things that set them apart from others in the cast (which, to be fair, is actually a very accurate description of the DLC roster), but they should not ever be as centralizing or as high in the tier list as Cloud or Bayonetta.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I love how we actually have candidates for a number 1 spot instead of a clear favourite. Those candidates being

You could make a valid case for any of them.

Not going to say Diddy's #1 for sure, but he has to be on the short list of contenders. We also have to see just how far Sheik/ZSS fall to get a feel for the new meta.

 

[Peppermint1201]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios
http://challonge.com/Frsmash4top8

Final Round 19 w/ ANTi, Fatality, Scatt, Rango, Day, Player-1

And there's a 14 year old Sonic named Wrath who took out Reflex

Just a note, Wrath isn't some random -- he's been vey highly ranked on Anther's Ladder for almost every season so far

 

[PK Gaming]

Just a note, Wrath isn't some random -- he's been vey highly ranked on Anther's Ladder for almost every season so far

Didn't Mr. R lose to the same kid?

I definitely wouldn't sleep on him.

 

[Appledees]

So Scatt just destroyed Fatality (3-0)

I honestly don't see how Falcon wins now against Megaman convincingly with that horribly exploitable recovery and how strong lemons and Leaf shield are in this matchup.

 

[C0rvus]

Bowser vs Lucario looks so flimsy. Lordmix just went in. Good stuff.

 

[Jams.]

Not going to say Diddy's #1 for sure, but he has to be on the short list of contenders. We also have to see just how far Sheik/ZSS fall to get a feel for the new meta.

Diddy has always had a pretty solid matchup spread because his general game plan is pretty ubiquitous and he has tools for almost every situation. He doesn't really perform better MU wise in a Bayo/Cloud/Rosa centric meta than a Sheik/ZSS/Rosa (sort of) centric meta; Sheik, ZSS, and MK were never big problems for him MU wise whereas his arguably most problematic matchup, Rosalina, wasn't touched. I don't feel like he'll really climb much aside from possibly being better than Sheik, ZSS, and MK now.

 

[FullMoon]

Just a note, Wrath isn't some random -- he's been vey highly ranked on Anther's Ladder for almost every season so far

Having played against him back when I still played in the ladder, yeah, he's definitely somebody to look out for.