Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

Tyroy didn't take a single game with his MK. MK has no reason being there sadly.

What are your thoughts on MK in the current patch? I get the general idea but could you give a bit more detail?

 

[ReroRero]

At this point, Sheiks design of 'not being able to kill at all' is a really big weaknesses because of rage. Sheik has to outplay the opponent 8/10 times now just for the game to be even. Her design just isn't optimal for smash 4 anymore.

Light, can't kill off grab, no kill moves to space safely in neutral, horrible smash attacks. Rage is going to end sheik.

She still has one of the best frame data in the game, amazing recovery, excellent projectile and one of the best special set in the game. Now she will need to be played like intended (like Void plays her) to shine in tournament.

Not the best character in the game anymore but I really think the nerf will even help Sheik to explore new possibilities in her moveset and actually be worried about some match ups

Also on another topic, I really think that top players in the future should have a solid secondary pick since every character has disadvatanged match ups. The meta will probably be filled with more and more viable characters as the time pass by and dealing with everything with a single character seems really difficult. What do you think ?

 

[warionumbah2]

I cant go into detail because theres a huge lack of evidence on my side, MK needs to be used more in tournament, tyrant and ito haven't given up they're labbing the character and making youtube videos on their findings which is very rare. Leo used MK recently along with Cloud yesterday

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iLXOzup6p2A
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pva2C5jZlqY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c3AmhCerWeE

Still confused as to why he didn't time the mac out with such a huge lead. Its very clear this characters nerfed this wasn't a buff, you won't see this character in tournament for a long time so he'll likely drop in what ever tier lists people make especially Japanese tier lists where they only rated MK high because of abadango. Making full blown MU lists is silly as well, similar to sheik this character got ****ed by the patch give it time.

Why people are so optimistic about this character all of a sudden is mind boggling, especially from MK players who should know the character inside and out. Those who don't use the character will post positive things or peep talk which deludes certain MK players into thinking he gained more than he lost this patch(which has happened in this very thread). Still a good character but I cant see him winning big events anymore. Turns out tyroy didn't take a single game, so MK shouldn't be on there.

 

[TurboLink]

Well, to be fair and square, it should be percieved from a Bowser main's view. Meaning that when using Bowser, there are people that beat you up worse than Link. I also saw Kuma claiming that it was purely from an advantage stage point of view, then again that should've probably been stated better. Link having a disjoint, huge range, and projectiles that easily zone Bowser out should already mean Bowser is losing this at least 40-60, but then again.. I play neither Bowser nor Link.

I don't think people realise just how easy it is to get past Link's projectiles. If Bowser's disadvantage wasn't so bad, I could definitely see the matchup being in his favor.

 

[Rizen]

I agree with people that Cloud's probably the best now. Check out the insanity that is Cloud's frame 5-15 Nair

Thanks to @Furil for the hitbox gifs
http://smashboards.com/threads/hitbox-visualization-compilation.432936/

 

[BunbUn129]

For those of you who didn't watch the videos that warionumbah posted, here's important info:

Leo got the ladder AND killed with it once in each set, against Boswer, a heavy floaty, Rosa, a light floaty, and Mac, a light fast faller. I might be a little too optimistic (as if that's a bad thing), but MK so far is looking strong and crisp.

To you MK mains who are still unsure about the current state of our meta: remember the dark days before Leo, when Tyrant and Ito and the lot were getting work done, but everyone just thought they were really good? Those were the days when even ZeRo considered MK a mid-tier. "But MK got buffed." Yes, that is true, but the buffs he got were mostly to niche moves (f tilt and jab). His core gamplay--his punishes and combos--were always there ever since release. Finally, we were fortunate to have Leo rise up and make the character fully relevant again.

So even after the nerf, ask yourselves: why not just do it again? If we proved our character was great once, I'm fully positive we can do it a second time. Tyrant said: "MK ain't dying on my watch."

And Tyrant linked this in a tweet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEPM1lIkq-4&feature=youtu.be

TL;DR Leo, Ito, and Jband are already getting work done with the new MK, and they're making him look just as potent as he was.

 

[Wintermelon43]

For those of you who didn't watch the videos that warionumbah posted, here's important info:

Leo got the ladder AND killed with it once in each set, against Boswer, a heavy floaty, Rosa, a light floaty, and Mac, a light fast faller. I might be a little too optimistic (as if that's a bad thing), but MK so far is looking strong and crisp.

To you MK mains who are still unsure about the current state of our meta: remember the dark days before Leo, when Tyrant and Ito and the lot were getting work done, but everyone just thought they were really good? Those were the days when even ZeRo considered MK a mid-tier. "But MK got buffed." Yes, that is true, but the buffs he got were mostly to niche moves (f tilt and jab). His core gamplay--his punishes and combos--were always there ever since release. Finally, we were fortunate to have Leo rise up and make the character fully relevant again.

So even after the nerf, ask yourselves: why not just do it again? If we proved our character was great once, I'm fully positive we can do it a second time.

And Tyrant linked this in a tweet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEPM1lIkq-4&feature=youtu.be

TL;DR Leo, Ito, and Jband are already getting work done with the new MK, and they're making him look just as potent as he was.

Yeah, I think it's just that the Leo era is over, and he isn't the best Meta Knight niw this patch. Instead, it's the Tyrant and Ito era again.

 

[BunbUn129]

Yeah, I think it's just that the Leo era is over, and he isn't the best Meta Knight niw this patch. Instead, it's the Tyrant and Ito era again.

I find it strange you consider this another Ito and Tyrant era (not saying you're wrong or anything). I've watched Ito's sets ever since the patch, and Leo seems like he's still the best.

 

[Y2Kay]

I find it strange you consider this another Ito and Tyrant era (not saying you're wrong or anything). I've watched Ito's sets ever since the patch, and Leo seems like he's still the best.

I'm confused too. It wasn't like Leo was competely carried by the elevator combo. He has very good fundamentals.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Some guy in the Wario Discord chat says Nasubi is using Wario again. Supposedly he beat "Ron" (a Luigi/Mario player) and placed 2nd over 9B. Maybe he's picking him up again in response to the Sheik nerfs lol.

For those of you who didn't watch the videos that warionumbah posted, here's important info:

Leo got the ladder AND killed with it once in each set, against Boswer, a heavy floaty, Rosa, a light floaty, and Mac, a light fast faller.

I don't know if "killed" is the best way to characterize what happened. I mean, he lost to the LMac and used Cloud for a lot of the matches in those sets.

And Tyrant linked this in a tweet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEPM1lIkq-4&feature=youtu.be

... It doesn't still work though. Evidence has shown that with proper DI you can get out of it, that Ness wasn't DI'ing correctly.

 

[BunbUn129]

I'm confused too. It wasn't like Leo was competely carried by the elevator combo. He has very good fundamentals.

If one top-level MK main is going, it's Abadango. If you compare his fundamentals with Leo, Ito, and Tyrant, it's starkly different down to the way he moves across the stage. The other three throw out hitboxes and bait, while Aba is much more passive in neutral. He himself admitted he played MK only for up air combos (EXPOSED), and said MK was dead just after the patch.

The other pre-Leo mains are barely going to have trouble because they have better mastery over his neutral, and can live without the up air combo.

Goodstyle_4 you could also DI out of it pre-patch, but most people died to it because they didn't know the optimal DI (holding in or down on the DA was often enough for the first uair to miss). And so I wouldn't be surprised if people still don't know how to after the nerf.

 

[Tri Knight]

I don't think people realise just how easy it is to get past Link's projectiles. If Bowser's disadvantage wasn't so bad, I could definitely see the matchup being in his favor.

Link has an answer to just about everything Bowser has. I can't see this ever being in Bowser's favor.

 

[Y2Kay]

If one top-level MK main is going, it's Abadango. If you compare his fundamentals with Leo, Ito, and Tyrant, it's starkly different down to the way he moves across the stage. The other three throw out hitboxes and bait, while Aba is much more passive in neutral. He himself admitted he played MK only for up air combos (EXPOSED), and said MK was dead just after the patch.

The other pre-Leo mains are barely going to have trouble because they have better mastery over his neutral, and can live without the up air combo.

Abadango dropped MK immediately. Didn't even try to make it work like the other Metaknight mains.

 

[BunbUn129]

Abadango dropped MK immediately. Didn't even try to make it work like the other Metaknight mains.

:150L

He was practicing them on stream post-patch, though.

 

[TurboLink]

Link has an answer to just about everything Bowser has. I can't see this ever being in Bowser's favor.

Care to explain?

 

[Asdioh]

Did you guys watch Tyroy's Bayonetta against Hyuga/Mr R last night? What did you think of it?
I don't know who the guy is, but he beat Hyuga, and gave Mr R an extremely hard time, by doing the same thing over and over. Frame 4 disjointed upB that's safe on shield or whiff, over. And over. Into death, or high damaging combos. With an occasional Witch Time if you think an attack is coming, eating only minimal punishment if you whiff (at least against Sheik)
I can definitely see this character being better than Cloud, and a contender for #1. There was hype about SDI-ing her combos, but I never see it actually happen in tournament matches, against top level players that have most certainly practiced the matchup a lot. She looks extremely frustrating to play against.

 

[Smog Frog]

even when players figure out to sdi double witch twist combos(why dont players airdodge out of this?) people will figure out that uair is much better/ more reliable to get long combos/early kills.

also i don't really think her matchups are good enough to be #1. can someone convince me that hers are better than ?

 

[Krysco]

One thing I've come to realize with the patches is that they tend to give low tiers kill confirms and take them away from top tiers. (?) all lost their well know kill confirms or got them nerfed and and lost their early kill throws. I believe had a kill confirm as well that was taken early on? He's an outlier.

Then you have (?)who all either got kill confirms or got more generous ones and flat out got kill moves.

Looking at Sheik, she had safety, mobility, the ability to approach and force approaches and the ability to secure a kill. The patch only made her lose that last one (her safety took a hit with the fair range but it still has the same frame data).

It seems now, you have to pick between the safety most top and high tiers have or the kill confirms the mid and low tiers have. Obviously there are exceptions like and still having kills confirms among potential others and..characters like still existing but it's not a clear majority.

Just some food for thought since people always mention the newly added kill confirms being a 'band-aid' and not a main fix while not 'compensating' top and high tiers who lose valuable tools.

As a few side notes, there was that video posted earlier showing Sheik's uthrow to uair killing. People mentioned how rage would ruin it. Could Sheik's potential do what Ike's do and purposely stale the uthrow so it works better at kill percent? There was also a video of Peach keeping her infinite this patch despite the nerf to uair and I'm wondering, is it a frame perfect infinite? I ask because it would suck to get uair nerfed again and perhaps Peach could instead get a nerf to her jumpsquat to remove the infinite (Nintendo has shown that tier placement does not matter, they will remove infinites ) Lastly, I agree with I believe it was @Megamang ? I'd like to see the long post in regards to Roy @Gawain mentioned. Just because some people have disagreed with the post before or ignored it doesn't mean it couldn't contribute to discussion. As someone who has mostly lurked since some point in the v2 of this thread, I'd love to read theory, positive or negative in regards to a character that's rarely seen or talked about.

Edited out from the list of low tiers receiving more generous kill confirms.

 

[Macchiato]

One thing I've come to realize with the patches is that they tend to give low tiers kill confirms and take them away from top tiers. (?) all lost their well know kill confirms or got them nerfed and and lost their early kill throws. I believe had a kill confirm as well that was taken early on? He's an outlier.

Then you have (?) who all either got kill confirms or got more generous ones and flat out got kill moves.

Looking at Sheik, she had safety, mobility, the ability to approach and force approaches and the ability to secure a kill. The patch only made her lose that last one (her safety took a hit with the fair range but it still has the same frame data).

It seems now, you have to pick between the safety most top and high tiers have or the kill confirms the mid and low tiers have. Obviously there are exceptions like and still having kills confirms among potential others and..characters like still existing but it's not a clear majority.

Just some food for thought since people always mention the newly added kill confirms being a 'band-aid' and not a main fix while not 'compensating' top and high tiers who lose valuable tools.

As a few side notes, there was that video posted earlier showing Sheik's uthrow to uair killing. People mentioned how rage would ruin it. Could Sheik's potential do what Ike's do and purposely stale the uthrow so it works better at kill percent? There was also a video of Peach keeping her infinite this patch despite the nerf to uair and I'm wondering, is it a frame perfect infinite? I ask because it would suck to get uair nerfed again and perhaps Peach could instead get a nerf to her jumpsquat to remove the infinite (Nintendo has shown that tier placement does not matter, they will remove infinites ) Lastly, I agree with I believe it was @Megamang ? I'd like to see the long post in regards to Roy @Gawain mentioned. Just because some people have disagreed with the post before or ignored it doesn't mean it couldn't contribute to discussion. As someone who has mostly lurked since some point in the v2 of this thread, I'd love to read theory, positive or negative in regards to a character that's rarely seen or talked about.

Zelda didn't get any kill confirms. She just got more options, higher damage outputs, and a moveset that now functions.

 

[Krysco]

Zelda didn't get any kill confirms. She just got more options, higher damage outputs, and a moveset that now functions.

I mentioned more generous ones. Uair becoming larger and doing more damage makes dthrow -> uair a more generous killer.

 

[williamsga555]

I hadn't realized just how badly D3 bodies Luma; bair literally sends her flying, and Gordos also seem annoying. Having multiple jumps also helps vs. uair traps even with his garbage air speed.

Ayup. Dedede loses the matchup, but it's likely the closest-to-even top tier matchup he has. Bair and ftilt are really effective tools at swatting luma from almost anywhere, and delicious multijumps alleviate her landing traps a bit. Like always, we still have to land eventually, but it helps.

 

[Tri Knight]

Care to explain?

Link gets a lot off of a combination of Zoning and Spacing. Yes, Bowser can get in with proper timing as can every character but one Boomerang or Bomb will push him away, off stage, etc. Without projectiles, Link can space Bowser fairly safely now that some of his moves are pretty safe on shield. Link's throw combo just got better because of Bowser's big frame.

Link's edgeguarding tools are top quality. Link can sit above the ledge with Dair for a pretty good amount of frames, making it dangerous for Bowser to try to get in too quickly. Bowser can't just go above Link either because he has to worry about Uair. Even a trade with NAir could be enough to gimp.

My problem with Bowser is that, yes he can rush in, get through projectiles, and try to beat on Link, but he doesn't have the frame data to actually take advantage of that. Link doesn't have great frame data either but it's a little better than Bowser's. Yes Bowser's got intangibility on limbs but Link has his sword. Bowser typically tries to do a lot of baiting, punishing, and grabbing. You can't really bait Link to rush in on you if he's playing right. Link will typically force Bowser in.

 

[NotLiquid]

At this point "learn to SDI out of combos, bro" is pretty much a Bayonetta exclusive meme.

Until that actually becomes a regular occurrence among top players without getting smacked by another one of her option coverage moves there is no reason to assume that this is an actual thing that is going to make the matchup easier. It's like saying "just get rid of Luma, bro" when talking about the Rosalina matchup.

 

[Macchiato]

I mentioned more generous ones. Uair becoming larger and doing more damage makes dthrow -> uair a more generous killer.

No, it's generally the same. It doesn't kill any earlier due to the 2 KBG reduction. They can still DI after 70% and escape any follow-up. It really didn't make a difference.

 

[MrListerTheSisterFister]

Did you guys watch Tyroy's Bayonetta against Hyuga/Mr R last night? What did you think of it?
I don't know who the guy is, but he beat Hyuga, and gave Mr R an extremely hard time, by doing the same thing over and over. Frame 4 disjointed upB that's safe on shield or whiff, over. And over. Into death, or high damaging combos. With an occasional Witch Time if you think an attack is coming, eating only minimal punishment if you whiff (at least against Sheik)
I can definitely see this character being better than Cloud, and a contender for #1. There was hype about SDI-ing her combos, but I never see it actually happen in tournament matches, against top level players that have most certainly practiced the matchup a lot. She looks extremely frustrating to play against.

What stream was it on?

 

[Krysco]

No, it's generally the same. It doesn't kill any earlier due to the 2 KBG reduction. They can still DI after 70% and escape any follow-up. It really didn't make a difference.

Ah my apologies then for spreading misinformation. Not too knowledgeable on Zelda. I'm just aware that an increase in damage also means an increase to knockback and most other moves that have gone through similar changes have killed earlier, first one that comes to mind is Ike's uair.

 

[Peppermint1201]

As for the ROB - Bayonetta discussion a page or two ago, it is definitely reasonable to say that ROB does well against Bayo. I think most ROB mains are in agreement that it's an even matchup. ROB can keep her out very well with projectiles and take advantage of her slightly lacking neutral, forcing her hand with gyro (some have compared ROB's gyro to Sonic's spin dash in the way it restricts options). Due to the fact that he has a decent kill throw (which isn't dependent on stage position like Ness') he can play the patient game at high percents, avoiding Witch Time by using projectiles and waiting for the time to grab, or use Gyro to upsmash which is guaranteed when done properly. That being said, Bayonetta can still steal the gyro (her specials mesh well together, so she is better at this than other characters), harass ROB offstage (offstage harassment goes both ways, really), and of course get her death combos.

 

[bc1910]

Why people are so optimistic about this character all of a sudden is mind boggling, especially from MK players who should know the character inside and out. Those who don't use the character will post positive things or peep talk which deludes certain MK players into thinking he gained more than he lost this patch(which has happened in this very thread). Still a good character but I cant see him winning big events anymore. Turns out tyroy didn't take a single game, so MK shouldn't be on there.

Denial is a powerful thing. We saw the same thing happen after the Luigi nerf. I remember people claiming that he'd still be top 5 without his Dthrow setups because he had plenty of other kill setups and was a really strong character without them. When in reality Luigi already had several -2 or borderline -2 MUs with characters who he couldn't get in against, and there was no doubt that he was mainly good because of that Dthrow. I even saw people claim that the Fireball nerf wouldn't matter because they only increased the ending lag by 3 frames, when this is a genre where even a 1 frame buff/nerf can be significant.

I genuinely don't think MK's situation is as bad because firstly the ladder can still work under specific circumstances and secondly he wasn't completely reliant on it. I don't see how this patch can be spun as being good for MK, though.

 

[Rizen]

Care to explain?

Bowser can punish hard so Link has to play patiently. It's only slightly in Link's favor imo.
Link is good at zoning large characters. Zair and Fair are safe on shield when spaced right due to Link's minor landing lag, shield stun and disjoint. Link's grab outranges Bowser's landing options including klaw and Link generally has good disjoint to punish Bowser in the air. Grab also punishes Bowser's attacks because the immense range. Link can throw bombs to launch Bowser up, which is not a happy place for him.
Bowser on the other hand does have good range and movement and can rack up damage fast once he gets in. He has a good OoS game but proper spacing by Link combats it well. If Link over commits to anything bowser can bring the pain.

IMO Link benefits more from the stages too. On FD Link can keep backing up and zoning until he gets an opening. On BF Link can platform camp with bombs or make landings hell with his disjoint. Other stages are somewhere in between. The only stage I see Bowser having an advantage on is Lylat with its low platforms and tilt but Link can ban it.

 

[TurboLink]

Ayup. Dedede loses the matchup, but it's likely the closest-to-even top tier matchup he has. Bair and ftilt are really effective tools at swatting luma from almost anywhere, and delicious multijumps alleviate her landing traps a bit. Like always, we still have to land eventually, but it helps.

Ryu is probably King Dedede's best "top tier" matchup.

Bowser can punish hard so Link has to play patiently. It's only slightly in Link's favor imo.
Link is good at zoning large characters. Zair and Fair are safe on shield when spaced right due to Link's minor landing lag, shield stun and disjoint. Link's grab outranges Bowser's landing options including klaw and Link generally has good disjoint to punish Bowser in the air. Grab also punishes Bowser's attacks because the immense range. Link can throw bombs to launch Bowser up, which is not a happy place for him.
Bowser on the other hand does have good range and movement and can rack up damage fast once he gets in. He has a good OoS game but proper spacing by Link combats it well. If Link over commits to anything bowser can bring the pain.

IMO Link benefits more from the stages too. On FD Link can keep backing up and zoning until he gets an opening. On BF Link can platform camp with bombs or make landings hell with his disjoint. Other stages are somewhere in between. The only stage I see Bowser having an advantage on is Lylat with its low platforms and tilt but Link can ban it.

Link gets a lot off of a combination of Zoning and Spacing. Yes, Bowser can get in with proper timing as can every character but one Boomerang or Bomb will push him away, off stage, etc. Without projectiles, Link can space Bowser fairly safely now that some of his moves are pretty safe on shield. Link's throw combo just got better because of Bowser's big frame.

Link's edgeguarding tools are top quality. Link can sit above the ledge with Dair for a pretty good amount of frames, making it dangerous for Bowser to try to get in too quickly. Bowser can't just go above Link either because he has to worry about Uair. Even a trade with NAir could be enough to gimp.

My problem with Bowser is that, yes he can rush in, get through projectiles, and try to beat on Link, but he doesn't have the frame data to actually take advantage of that. Link doesn't have great frame data either but it's a little better than Bowser's. Yes Bowser's got intangibility on limbs but Link has his sword. Bowser typically tries to do a lot of baiting, punishing, and grabbing. You can't really bait Link to rush in on you if he's playing right. Link will typically force Bowser in.

Thanks.

 

[ReroRero]

Abadango dropped MK immediately. Didn't even try to make it work like the other Metaknight mains.

So who does he play now ?

 

[Y2Kay]

So who does he play now ?

Rosalina and Luma

 

[bc1910]

Greninja can actually shield pressure really well, charged shuriken is a legit frame trap if someone is caught shielding it if I remember right

His only problem is bad OoS and slightly poor frame data, otherwise he's great at pretty much everything else.

Was thinking about this. Is this even true any more?

Greninja has a 3f jab, 5f Bair, low ending lag on nearly all his normals besides Smash Attacks, a fast projectile, and now the fastest dash attack in the game in terms of total frames. Since the original Greninja nerf, the patches have been kind to him with frame data buffs. His landing lags, excluding Dair, are below average thanks to the latest patch. For the most part, he's lost that clunky feeling.

The key moves that Greninja had poor frame data on were grab, Nair and Fair. Grab has been addressed (11f is still slow but much more usable, and with a FAF of 29 his grab has lower total frames than average) and Fair just got a landing lag buff. Nair and Fair's high startups are annoying, but I'd say his "poor frame data "is mostly contained to those two moves.

I'm not saying he has Sheik level frame data but it's probably above average now.

 

[Peppermint1201]

So who does he play now ?

Rosalina, Mewtwo, and I'm actually pretty sure he still plays MK based on his twitter description and recent twitch streams.

 

[Y2Kay]

I've always felt like greninja's frame data was overvdramaticized. It really isn't that bad.

 

[Funbot28]

Initial thought and ideas for patch 1.15:

Spoiler

Explanation:

S-Tier:
So after the patch, Shiek is no longer considered the best character in the game due to her options being taken away from her and she can't reliably 50/50 opponents with D-Throw to Uair and F-Throw to BF. Which leaves Bayo taking up her spot imo because the nerfs that she received due hurt her a bit, but they are really only detrimental to players who spam WT and Heel Slide (so not competitively relevant), she still has all her 0-death combos and she only needs to play a bit more careful with her options now although she still has those options. Rosalina did not change at all and was indirectly buffed as her two worse matchup (Shiek and MK) were nerfed, leaving her more room to progress as a character. The only reason she is not #1 is because there aren't many players who play her in nationals besides Dabuz, and she has a bit of a learning curve to adjust to. Cloud was nerfed in this patch, but like Bayonetta, he still has all the options as before with them only being slightly weaker and spam happy. The Limit charge increase is very minimal and Limit Cross Slash still kills incredibly early (a compensation for nerfing Finishing Touch, which honestly whiffed a lot for me). He still pressured the opponent tremendously when charging for Limit and does not get needle camped anymore by Shiek thanks to decrease in range. He was already close to S in 1.14, but the more relevant nerfs to the other top tiers pushed him up tremendously in my eyes.

W.I.P

 

[Djent]

Abadango dropped MK immediately. Didn't even try to make it work like the other Metaknight mains.

Apparently this isn't true. There was a Tokyo tournament last night (not streamed) where he used at least some MK. He did, however, switch to Mewtwo after losing winners finals. Results from that tournament are below:

Spoiler: TUS4

Bracket
1) Abadango
2) Nyanko
3) Kamemushi
4) KEN
5) Zeke
5) Songun
7) YOC
7) Tsu-

 

[Y2Kay]

Apparently this isn't true. There was a Tokyo tournament last night (not streamed) where he used at least some MK. He did, however, switch to Mewtwo after losing winners finals. Results from that tournament are below:

Spoiler: TUS4

Bracket.
1) Abadango
2) Nyanko )
3) Kamemushi
4) KEN
5) Zeke
5) Songun
7) YOC
7) Tsu-

Why the heck is he trolling us on Twitter, saying he dropped him the night of the nerfs? ;w;

 

[bc1910]

Initial thought and ideas for patch 1.15:

Spoiler

View attachment 100881

Is Shiek to high? Idk the nerf hurt her too much...

Yoshi, Falcon and Luigi are too high, but everything else looks fairly accurate. Good job.

Please remember to include some explanations for your placements, though.

EDIT: You know, I should take my own advice and explain why I think those 3 are too high.

All of them are helped out by the Sheik nerfs, without a doubt. Falcon, though, has some really tough MUs with other top/high tiers and I think he has a ways to go before he reaches solo viability. Luigi loses -2 to plenty of characters besides Sheik, and it's actually not too hard to pocket a Luigi counter which I think hampers him a lot. Yoshi is helped the most by the Sheik nerfs I think since he doesn't have any other horrible MUs to my knowledge, so he should probably rise the most. However, his complete dearth of results pre-patch makes me wary of putting him too high up at this point in time. That might change in future though. I would move Yoshi and Falcon down to B, move Luigi below Lucario (who should probably be bumped up, in fairness) and maybe bump the Pits up to B+ just behind Greninja.

Oh and Marth, Lucina and Wii Fit are way too low, all are solid characters with decent results who, surprise surprise, enjoy the Sheik nerfs (Lucina's weak on the results front but is too similar to Marth to be that much lower). I was kind of ignoring anything that happened after B- tier though since that's where most tier lists fall apart anyway.

 

[Jalil]

I've always felt like greninja's frame data was overvdramaticized. It really isn't that bad.

His frame data really isn't that bad but his most used moves have a lot of startup and he can't throw out that many aerials before touching the ground again. His ground games pretty fast