Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

Greninja's F-Air would be legit ridiculous if it was faster though, disjointed, does 14% no matter how you hit with it and 15 frames of landing lag on a character with really good movement would be very silly.

I think Greninja is at a good point balance-wise, I sure hope they don't change anything else with him if more patches are to come.

 

[Y2Kay]

Greninja's F-Air would be legit ridiculous if it was faster though, disjointed, does 14% no matter how you hit with it and 15 frames of landing lag on a character with really good movement would be very silly.

I think Greninja is at a good point balance-wise, I sure hope they don't change anything else with him if more patches are to come.

If greninja's fair came out around frame 6 it could probably be the best fair in the game (mewtwo's would probably be just as good)

 

[PK Gaming]

Apparently this isn't true. There was a Tokyo tournament last night (not streamed) where he used at least some MK. He did, however, switch to Mewtwo after losing winners finals. Results from that tournament are below:

Spoiler: TUS4

Bracket
1) Abadango
2) Nyanko
3) Kamemushi
4) KEN
5) Zeke
5) Songun
7) YOC
7) Tsu-

It's nice to see such a diverse top 8.

Honestly, I feel like Smash 4 is headed towards this Shan Gri La-Super Street Fighter 4 esque balance where you'll see more variety at tournaments, and that genuinely makes me very happy.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Enough talk about strong fairs, guys. Sheik mains are still grieving.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still think Diddy's F Air is one of the better F Airs in the game. The range, speed and priority make up for it not being able to kill so well anymore (even tho I dislike the F Air nerf worse than the U Air nerf).

Diddy is also better than nerfed Sheik and ZSS I'd say. And he was always beter than Ryu and Sonic, again, in my personal, humble, perhaps non-factual opinion.

 

[Das Koopa]

I think Ally beating Mr. R is definitely a statement that Sheik's nerfs really do matter a lot. I'll be very interested to see how VoiD and Anti fare. ZeRo's probably gonna switch to Diddy or something.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think Ally beating Mr. R is definitely a statement that Sheik's nerfs really do matter a lot. I'll be very interested to see how VoiD and Anti fare. ZeRo's probably gonna switch to Diddy or something.

If Diddy was beating pre-patched Sheiks EFFECTIVELY by ZeRo's hands, I have no doubt that ZeRo's Diddy is probably the strongest force in the game at the moment.

Which... logically, would make him the best character in the game. But that's not my business *sips tea*

 

[warionumbah2]

For those of you who didn't watch the videos that warionumbah posted, here's important info:

Leo got the ladder AND killed with it once in each set, against Boswer, a heavy floaty, Rosa, a light floaty, and Mac, a light fast faller. I might be a little too optimistic (as if that's a bad thing), but MK so far is looking strong and crisp.

To you MK mains who are still unsure about the current state of our meta: remember the dark days before Leo, when Tyrant and Ito and the lot were getting work done, but everyone just thought they were really good? Those were the days when even ZeRo considered MK a mid-tier. "But MK got buffed." Yes, that is true, but the buffs he got were mostly to niche moves (f tilt and jab). His core gamplay--his punishes and combos--were always there ever since release. Finally, we were fortunate to have Leo rise up and make the character fully relevant again.

So even after the nerf, ask yourselves: why not just do it again? If we proved our character was great once, I'm fully positive we can do it a second time. Tyrant said: "MK ain't dying on my watch."

And Tyrant linked this in a tweet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEPM1lIkq-4&feature=youtu.be

TL;DR Leo, Ito, and Jband are already getting work done with the new MK, and they're making him look just as potent as he was.

Jband dropped MK.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Jband dropped MK.

Wait, who is he using???

 

[warionumbah2]

Wait, who is he using???

Day after he made the video about MK he said he's looking into other characters. He doesn't like this MK.

 

[teddystalin]

I think Ally beating Mr. R is definitely a statement that Sheik's nerfs really do matter a lot. I'll be very interested to see how VoiD and Anti fare. ZeRo's probably gonna switch to Diddy or something.

Before we all read too much into Ally v Mr. R, it's worth noting that Ally's Mario had a strong record against Mr. R's Sheik already (5-2 before last night, now 11-7). Watching those old sets, Ally would routinely live to 150%+ and dodge most of Sheik's kill setups before dying to a stray aerial or edgeguard. Sheiks, as before, can still just keep playing neutral until fair kills, it's just riskier to do so. Watching the sets last night, it looked like Mario still had more trouble killing a lot of the time.

 

[Asdioh]

Did you guys watch Tyroy's Bayonetta against Hyuga/Mr R last night? What did you think of it?
I don't know who the guy is, but he beat Hyuga, and gave Mr R an extremely hard time, by doing the same thing over and over. Frame 4 disjointed upB that's safe on shield or whiff, over. And over. Into death, or high damaging combos. With an occasional Witch Time if you think an attack is coming, eating only minimal punishment if you whiff (at least against Sheik)
I can definitely see this character being better than Cloud, and a contender for #1. There was hype about SDI-ing her combos, but I never see it actually happen in tournament matches, against top level players that have most certainly practiced the matchup a lot. She looks extremely frustrating to play against.

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/711577212634468352
heh, that's unexpected

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Falcon, though, has some really tough MUs with other top/high tiers and I think he has a ways to go before he reaches solo viability

Pikachu. That's it. Maybe Sheik, but I'm willing to bet that it's not worse than Pikachu anymore. Other than those two, he had slight struggles with ZSS, Diddy Kong, Ryu, and possibly Fox, but all those MUs are doable especially now for ZSS.
He does not lose to Rosalina, probably not ZSS anymore, Sonic, Mario, Meta Knight, Villager, Ness and probably not any of those below him. That's a pretty solid MU spread. The reason I didn't mention Cloud is because it's hard to tell at this point whether it's players that are struggling with Cloud or if it's actually a disadvantaged MU, but if it is disadvantaged it's not by much. If you really needed a secondary for Pkachu (and maybe Sheik still?) Mario's not a bad choice.

Marth, Lucina and Wii Fit are way too low,

This. At the very least, they should be above Roy (and Roy should be lower too) but I can understand if Funbot28 was just playing it safe here because the only characters that were notably switched around from the official tier list were Mega man, Mewtwo, Charizard, Dedede, and Samus.

 

[C0rvus]

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/711577212634468352
heh, that's unexpected

Ally always calling shots. It's like he's my inner monologue in the form of a Twitter account. Beautiful salt.

 

[Megamang]

Speaking of playing it safe until fair kills, m2s fair starts reliably killing a little past 110%, weight dependant. This is super useful. Im glad aba might be giving m2 some more rep, it makes sense as m2 has one of the best punish games now.

Im glad they never added ICs.

Also, maybe its just the way the initial witch twist hits, but it seemed to me like ally and hyuga were SDIing the combos up, or tyroy was dropping more than usual.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Im glad they never added ICs.

Oh this! This so much...! Those eskimos would be soooo broken in this game. They might've had their fans, but I was never fan of the wobbling. Also they seemed like the most random choice Sakurai could make for a retro character... I say good ridiance, a good year and a half later didn't convince me otherwise. I do miss Wolf tho. He'd make for an awesome character in Smash 4, am sure.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

https://twitter.com/AllyOrNotAlly/status/711577212634468352
heh, that's unexpected

Says bayo gets too much reward for little risk and may have to get banned, acknowledges bayo has losing MUs. Says MK was difficult to use and that justifies him not being banned or something.

Idk, but that sounds like double standards

EDIT: and you guys saying you're glad ICs wasn't added onto the game are acting like Sakurai wouldn't patch out any infinities they would have.

 

[Fex13]

does diddy actually have any bad MUs? except for rosa.
i believe sheik is even now.

 

[Big-Cat]

If Diddy was beating pre-patched Sheiks EFFECTIVELY by ZeRo's hands, I have no doubt that ZeRo's Diddy is probably the strongest force in the game at the moment.

Which... logically, would make him the best character in the game. But that's not my business *sips tea*

No, that'd be saying Zero's Diddy is the best out there. As much as I have mixed opinions on Zero, he optimized Diddy to where Diddy is now. It was the other way around with Sheik to an extent as her tools simply gave Zero too many good things to work with.

 

[Ninety]

Apparently this isn't true. There was a Tokyo tournament last night (not streamed) where he used at least some MK. He did, however, switch to Mewtwo after losing winners finals. Results from that tournament are below:

Spoiler: TUS4

Bracket
1) Abadango
2) Nyanko
3) Kamemushi
4) KEN
5) Zeke
5) Songun
7) YOC
7) Tsu-

People are switching to Mewtwo after losing with Meta Knight. What a time to be alive.

 

[Rizen]

But is ZeRo's Diddy better than Ranai's (name?) Villager? This is a clash of the titans I want to see!

 

[Y2Kay]

All these people complaining about bayonetta's crazy high damage combos, and haven't even tried to pick up Greninja smh

Sheik has fallen from grace, and Bayonetta taking her place is the dream scenario for Greninja, actually.

There's no one better to lead the anti-bayo resistance force than Greninja

 

[Appledees]

Except Bayo can easily convert and get a 20-50% combo with little commitment. Its also easy as **** compared to Greninja's combos doesn't help that Greninja has to commit alot more than Bayo for his high damage combos.

Grenijna isn't a bad choice at all for Bayonetta but Bayo still has alot of options against Greninja that doesn't make me see the matchup any worse than 45-55.

 

[Y2Kay]

Except Bayo can easily convert and get a 20-50% combo with little commitment. Its also easy as **** compared to Greninja's combos doesn't help that Greninja has to commit alot more than Bayo for his high damage combos.

Grenijna isn't a bad choice at all for Bayonetta but Bayo still has alot of options against Greninja that doesn't make me see the matchup any worse than 45-55.

I was kiddin'. I personally hate the matchup, becuase of how conservative I have to play. I keep brain fartin' mid-match and forget witch time is a thing.

 

[Reapers]

All these people complaining about bayonetta's crazy high damage combos, and haven't even tried to pick up Greninja smh

Sheik has fallen from grace, and Bayonetta taking her place is the dream scenario for Greninja, actually.

There's no one better to lead the anti-bayo resistance force than Greninja

Is it not a bit too early to say something like this though? The only time I've seen these two face off in tournament so far is when Gluttony demolishing this Greninja in losers finals primarily through the use of witch time. Still though, I can see him being one of the more difficult matches for her at least.

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[Big-Cat]

Except Bayo can easily convert and get a 20-50% combo with little commitment. Its also easy as **** compared to Greninja's combos doesn't help that Greninja has to commit alot more than Bayo for his high damage combos.

Grenijna isn't a bad choice at all for Bayonetta but Bayo still has alot of options against Greninja that doesn't make me see the matchup any worse than 45-55.

I honestly think this is exaggerated. Bayonetta does not have the greatest neutral so for what she can get combos started with, they're pretty sparse. DTilt does not have that much range. FTilt string is YMMV. RHK and Heel Slide are super telegraphable and should probably be used to punish projectiles. Jab is 8 frames which is SLOWER than the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser with less safety. If we want to talk throws, her range is poor and her throws only start having combo value at mid-percents from my experience.

I'm not saying she's bad, but to say she can get that much damage off of little commitment is inaccurate.

 

[Jams.]

Top 8 of Midwest Mayhem

1) Ally:

2) LLL | Mr. R:

3) E2C | Tyroy :

4) Smashfactor Hyuga:

5) Pulse | Zinoto:

5) GGA. Nite:

7) UR | Greenbeast:

7) MJG:


That's a sexy top 8, right there.

Edit: if anyone wants to suss out the top 32, go nuts: http://e2c.challonge.com/MM1Top32

Late to this discussion, but I feel there was an interesting piece of information being overlooked if we only examined the top 8. Akiro, Illinois' top (and I believe Chicago's highest ranked player) who placed 33rd at Genesis 3, got only 9th at this event. He lost to NiTe and Greenbeast (wasn't this MU awful prepatch?), both Chicago players that I believe he has positive records against. In this case, I think Mr. R's second place result could be misleading, since he is arguably a stronger player than most of the attendees at that event. I think Akiro's lackluster performance is more telling about the impact of the Sheik nerfs.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Pre-patch Sheik was badly designed because her main weakness was finishing stocks yet Sheik players obviously bypassed that.

So is it safe to say that Witch Twist is badly designed too? Because, as Sakurai stated himself in the direct, Bayonetta's main weakness is her slow start up, but to me, it seems like Witch Twist bypasses that weakness.

I feel like a frame 4 OoS move that starts death combos and is safe even when whiffed nullifies Bayonetta's key weakness the same way the 50/50 nullified Sheik's.

 

[bc1910]

Except Bayo can easily convert and get a 20-50% combo with little commitment. Its also easy as **** compared to Greninja's combos doesn't help that Greninja has to commit alot more than Bayo for his high damage combos.

Grenijna isn't a bad choice at all for Bayonetta but Bayo still has alot of options against Greninja that doesn't make me see the matchup any worse than 45-55.

She shouldn't be getting anywhere near 50% off a single conversion if you know when to SSHC out of the combo safely.

If Greninja does beat her, even 55:45, that's pretty impressive.

Whether or not he beats her, Greninja is her most natural counter IMO. Especially with the Sheik nerf. I think you have to look outside the very top tier to find the characters that perform the best against Bayo. Small size, strong grab game, a good projectile and good mobility (to chase down her divekicks) - Greninja has all those traits, with the bonus of being able to cancel out of her combos. Pikachu should be a good pick against her for similar reasons, and so is MK. Mario also deserves a mention, although you wouldn't know it from Ally's posts.

 

[2fast]

Back when I started messing with Bayo, after a week or 2 of playing as her I found that abusing Witch Twist and dive kicking to safety were the optimal ways to play her. So I dropped her because of how lame it felt to play like that.

Fast forward to this past weekend and you've got Tyroy playing just like that and it was absolutely frustrating to watch and probably frustrating to play against. It's crazy because he wasn't even using the optimized combos I've seen Pink Fresh do and he was still winning.

If you can get away with winning against top players by only using BnBs than this character needs a nerf asap. Yes you can somewhat DI her stuff but even top players seem to be falling to her BnBs.

Also you cant DI the 2nd Witch Twist as that always has set knock back and you'll always get clocked with upair.

 

[C0rvus]

I mean, let's not give it time or anything.

It is most definitely maddening to watch someone succeed with simple tactics, but in time there WILL be counterplay.

Unless, there isn't. If that's the case, I'm glad to be working on a Bayo of my own :3

 

[Big-Cat]

Pre-patch Sheik was badly designed because her main weakness was finishing stocks yet Sheik players obviously bypassed that.

So is it safe to say that Witch Twist is badly designed too? Because, as Sakurai stated himself in the direct, Bayonetta's main weakness is her slow start up, but to me, it seems like Witch Twist bypasses that weakness.

I feel like a frame 4 OoS move that starts death combos and is safe even when whiffed nullifies Bayonetta's key weakness the same way the 50/50 nullified Sheik's.

Well, what then happens there is you start baiting Bayonetta to shield or Witch Time. Grabs destroy both options (save Witch Time's initial startup).

 

[san.]

I honestly think this is exaggerated. Bayonetta does not have the greatest neutral so for what she can get combos started with, they're pretty sparse. DTilt does not have that much range. FTilt string is YMMV. RHK and Heel Slide are super telegraphable and should probably be used to punish projectiles. Jab is 8 frames which is SLOWER than the likes of Ganondorf and Bowser with less safety. If we want to talk throws, her range is poor and her throws only start having combo value at mid-percents from my experience.

I'm not saying she's bad, but to say she can get that much damage off of little commitment is inaccurate.

Can you go into this in more detail?

Her dtilt outranges both Corrin's and Ike's while having lower endlag and startup. Her dtilt is her jab. Her utilt has less endlag than Mario's, almost identical frame data as Pikachu's. 4 frame jump squat and above average mobility.

Most of her moves have low endlag while having low startup moves in key places, so wouldn't that result in a good neutral?

 

[ligersandtigons]

Well, what then happens there is you start baiting Bayonetta to shield or Witch Time. Grabs destroy both options (save Witch Time's initial startup).

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say lol

In case you misread my original post, I was talking about Witch Twist, not Witch Time

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Back when I started messing with Bayo, after a week or 2 of playing as her I found that abusing Witch Twist and dive kicking to safety were the optimal ways to play her. So I dropped her because of how lame it felt to play like that.

Fast forward to this past weekend and you've got Tyroy playing just like that and it was absolutely frustrating to watch and probably frustrating to play against. It's crazy because he wasn't even using the optimized combos I've seen Pink Fresh do and he was still winning.

If you can get away with winning against top players by only using BnBs than this character needs a nerf asap. Yes you can somewhat DI her stuff but even top players seem to be falling to her BnBs.

Also you cant DI the 2nd Witch Twist as that always has set knock back and you'll always get clocked with upair.

2 weeks in and you're already finding out the optimal way of playing bayo?

Did you play in the hyperbolic time chamber or something cuz I need in on that.

 

[Blobface]

Are there Twitch recordings of some of these matches with Tyroy's Bayonetta?

 

[2fast]

2 weeks in and you're already finding out the optimal way of playing bayo?

Did you play in the hyperbolic time chamber or something cuz I need in on that.

I guess I should say it was the way I felt Bayo would needed to be played to be abused to her fullest extent but I abandoned her cuz it wasn't super fun to play like that :/

 

[Lavani]

Did you guys watch Tyroy's Bayonetta against Hyuga/Mr R last night? What did you think of it?
I don't know who the guy is, but he beat Hyuga, and gave Mr R an extremely hard time, by doing the same thing over and over. Frame 4 disjointed upB that's safe on shield or whiff, over. And over. Into death, or high damaging combos. With an occasional Witch Time if you think an attack is coming, eating only minimal punishment if you whiff (at least against Sheik)
I can definitely see this character being better than Cloud, and a contender for #1. There was hype about SDI-ing her combos, but I never see it actually happen in tournament matches, against top level players that have most certainly practiced the matchup a lot. She looks extremely frustrating to play against.

Silly, disgusting thing I noticed: When this is literally all you do as Bayonetta and Witch Twist stales too much to send opponents anywhere even at 100%+, it's all you have to do.

As a followup, enjoy Witch Twist hitboxes:

What a great character.

 

[Big-Cat]

Can you go into this in more detail?

Her dtilt outranges both Corrin's and Ike's while having lower endlag and startup. Her dtilt is her jab. Her utilt has less endlag than Mario's, almost identical frame data as Pikachu's. 4 frame jump squat and above average mobility.

Most of her moves have low endlag while having low startup moves in key places, so wouldn't that result in a good neutral?

Here's how I see it.Her real neutral is bullet arts. She's bait and punish incarnate. And on those moves:

How is it that her DTilt has more range than Corrin and Ike? I need to check this out, but it probably gets beaten by their DTilts for what I assume is a hurtbox on DTilt.

On UTilt, the range for that move is strictly in front of her so it's more practical as anti-air than a standard footsies move. Otherwise, I find the move is better during advantage, not neutral.

Low startup and low recovery with good mobility does not make a character have strong neutral. Not necessarily anyway. Hell, if we go off those two moves alone, she has a very predictable neutral.

I probably sound like a crazy person for not making a big deal out of anyone's tools.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say lol

In case you misread my original post, I was talking about Witch Twist, not Witch Time

An OOS Witch Twist happens less likely if the opponent knows how to bait out shield or even Witch Time only for her to get grabbed. I only mentioned Witch Time as it's also free to throws.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Silly, disgusting thing I noticed: When this is literally all you do as Bayonetta and Witch Twist stales too much to send opponents anywhere even at 100%+, it's all you have to do.

As a followup, enjoy Witch Twist hitboxes:

What a great character.

On an interesting note, this means that low pokes/low hitting moves are a solid answer to this move.

I didn't know that much, actually. Figured just her entire body was the hitbox but this might give me some labbing ideas *dtilts intensify*