4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0

Many fighting game communities will often make a tier list for their game, often as a reference for discussion of tournament viability. Smash is certainly no exception, with tier lists for all Smash games, and with Back Rooms often being the main body that organizes and crafts them with the help of correspondents and members.

The first Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U tier list was released in Spring 2016, for Patch 1.1.3. It's been nearly half a year, and the meta has seen shocking shifts in its rulesets, character viability and more thanks to 3 new patches and 2 new characters.

As a disclaimer, the 4BR acknowledges that tier lists aren't always accurate and are often controversial. However, we do want to study the game and give a take on the current meta, adding yet another important snapshot to the history of the game.

The community has been vigilant for this game since the very beginning, with 2016 being a fantastic year thus far for Smash. From competitors and dataminers to content creators and tournament organizers, it's been quite the ride. And with the future for Smash 4 getting bigger and brighter, it's only natural to say that the meta will constantly evolve as time goes on. With that out of the way, we'd like to introduce you to the second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Procedure

Starting in early June 2016 (after Smash 'N' Splash 2), we asked 4BR members to distribute all the characters in the game (with the exception of Mii Fighters due to a lack of consistency regarding their legality) across tiers; players could have as many tiers as they want, and even order characters within their tiers. Players had to assume that this was under Version 1.1.6 of the game and that customs were off. In addition, players were allowed to place Miis (either under their 1111 loadout, or an XXXX loadout) if they so desired for an addendum. At this time, the 4BR does not have an official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters, including Mii Fighters. As with the previous vote, we also reached out to correspondents from outside the 4BR to help with this project and added a handful of applicants to the 4BR to help partake in this project.

For example, here is my vote, which was ordered within tiers:

Spoiler: Example Vote

We decided to run voting until August 8th, the week of Super Smash Con, to allow for more thoughts about July's tournaments to run in, especially EVO 2016. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 56 votes, with 31 US voters and 25 international voters.

The following people submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@---
@-6WX-
@~Pink Fresh~
@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
@Alphicans
@Ambrose
@Camalange
@Catana
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@earth_tyt
@EcneBanjo
@Espy Rose
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@FullMoon
@Ghostbone
@istudying
@JJROCKETS
@John12346
@kameme8808 (Kamemushi)
@KENisbg (KEN)
Gunla
@Luco
@M@v
@Marc
@Marcbri
@Meru.
@Mr E
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NickRiddle
@Player-1
@Pugwest
@qb9b (9B)
@Ray_Kalm
@Raziek
@Red Ryu
@Remzi
@RichBrown
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Seagull Joe
@Shaya
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@SSB_Ned (Ned)
@SShane (SS)
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@Tweek
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Zan-
@Zigsta

As with the previous tier list, we will not be publicly releasing individual votes; however, all voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Locuan (vote formatting) and @Shaya (processing), we were able to generate the average placements and groupings (tiers) of the cast. Furthermore, we have included standard deviations for both of these results and the weighted group score, which considered characters per group and the placement differences between v2.0 and v1.0 (with Marth and Mewtwo having the biggest jumps, both in the positive direction).

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), while a higher standard deviation shows that the character had a diverse range of placements. As expected, the further down the tier list one goes from the top, the larger the deviations tends to be. While the top and bottom tiers have lower standard deviation results, the middle and lower tiers were highly opinionated.

For the first time, our procedure for the Tier List asked voters for two things concurrently - tiers or groups of characters (similar to Wii U v1.0) and the orders for characters within them (overall 1-58, similar to many other past BR lists). The resulting lists were not completely congruent, with several small position swaps (orders were still maintained in the release). However, this gave us the means to decide our tier separations, reflecting how closely our voters put characters together in contrast to the volatility of ordered placements.

The Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom divides were decided by the group score's range (9.88 - 1.72) split equally into five. The tiers primarily express point gaps of 10-9, 9-8, etc., with two exceptions. We merged the bottom tiers (2.82 - 1.72; 1.10 range), and to coincide with the high tier's split (8.25 - 6.62), we bumped up Captain Falcon, Greninja & Lucario, creating two tiers.

As such, we would like to present you with the...

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

Smashboards Tier List Maker Version:

Addendum for Mii Fighters:

Of the votes we collected, 27 of them had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:

H:

Conclusions

With the Summer of Smash coming to a close, there have been many unique advancements in the Smash 4 metagame that will be reflected within this tier list. Ever since the first tier list was released, Bayonetta took the world by storm; two of the top tiers in the last list received big changes, knocking them down a tad; everyone picked up Cloud; and Mega Man became a big threat. Other characters became relevant thanks to buffs, such as Marth and Mewtwo. Even though future patches are unlikely, it's safe to assume that the tier list will evolve quite fruitfully, as seen with previous Smash games.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya and Locuan for their help with processing the votes and results; Camalange, Shaya, @Marc, Vayseth and Events2Compete (Joe Fattal) for assisting with the collection of outside votes; and shrooby for creating the tier list image. Lastly, I'd like to give a special thank you to all the voters for their time and input into crafting this tier list. I was proud to take the mantle for the second tier list and receive help from so many people.

 

Well I woke up to see this new tier list. But now here's one thing that proves that the legitimacy of the tier list is fallacious. The one reason that makes this tier list complete bull is the fact that, despite his outstanding results and currently re-written MU, Link is actually lower than he was on the last tier list!

I've got a question to the 4BR, and it's this:
How the hell do you even let that happen?

Because from what it looks like, the 4BR actually does have a bias towards certain characters despite impeccable results, Link included. Results that would make people rethink how to make Link's MU, even. So I just wonder how the hell Link is even lower than he is right now when he should be around the level of Robin, if not beating Olimar. And furthermore about this broken ti-

(Sees Pit and Dark Pit's spots)

...what? Is it me or is there definitely bias in this list?

 

Roy...bottom...6...
I mean, I definitely see why people put him this low, and I'm not going to say he should be mid-tier because he has potential, since although he has potential he lacks results.
But like...bottom 6? Especially with Sethlon>Nasubi and Ryo>Abadango's Mewtwo at Smash Con, I feel like he should at least be on the top side of bottom 15.
Another thing is that since some low-level to mid-level players have cast Roy off as a "simple Marth clone", not many people are aware of his tools and exaggerate some of his weaknesses.
Again, trying my absolute hardest not to be main biased, and I'm willing to take up any discussion needed on the subject. I'm not trying to start controversy here.
Most of top tier is really good, but maybe ZSS a tad higher and Cloud a tad lower, especially because every top player that switched to/started with Cloud at SSC lost. Just my two cents, though.
Again, I'm willing to discuss any points made. Other than a few tweaks here and there, this list is pretty good.

 

Well I woke up to see this new tier list. But now here's one thing that proves that the legitimacy of the tier list is fallacious. The one reason that makes this tier list complete bull is the fact that, despite his outstanding results and currently re-written MU, Link is actually lower than he was on the last tier list!

I've got a question to the 4BR, and it's this:
How the hell do you even let that happen?

Because from what it looks like, the 4BR actually does have a bias towards certain characters despite impeccable results, Link included. Results that would make people rethink how to make Link's MU, even. So I just wonder how the hell Link is even lower than he is right now when he should be around the level of Robin, if not beating Olimar. And furthermore about this broken ti-

(Sees Pit and Dark Pit's spots)

View attachment 116102
...what? Is it me or is there definitely bias in this list?

So, basically, what you are saying is that, because your main has dropped a spot on the list, and that this doesn't align with your own opinions, the whole list is essentially wrong? Yup, ok.

I'll focus on Link because that's clearly where your gripe is. Link has dropped 1 whole spot. For a start, this means little; it's only 1 spot, but that isn't the point. Why has Link dropped a spot? It's not because people are ignoring his results and progression. It's not because people have bias. It's not because people hate Link, no. Link has ultimately dropped a place because other characters have notably moved up, such as Palutena, Little Mac and Lucina. When you think about it, Link's lucky to have dropped only 1 spot when more than 1 character has overtook him.

Link's matchup spread might have been updated, but you're looking at things in a vacuum. While Link's matchup spread is updated now, other characters have also been being updated at the same time, and have more notable results to shout about. Palutena beating ZeRo is something Link hasn't achieved, for example. Link hasn't upset anybody recently, unlike Little Mac (Sol). Then you have to consider the fact that two characters have been added in way above Link. Considering all this together, Link hasn't really fallen at all. If anything, he's theoretically risen a space, considering the addition of two more characters. That fact he hasn't fallen further due to the rise of other characters is also notable.

Dark Pit also has no real reason to be next to Pit. Pit gets used over Dark Pit in tournament play, and for a reason; his arrows, which open up many more opportunities than Dark Pit's can offer. Yeah, you can argue that people who play Pit should potentially be able to play Dark Pit, but tier lists aren't based on potential, but more representation and results, and Pit excels more than Dark Pit in both these areas. Luckily for Dark Pit, he likely won't ever end up as far apart as lets say, Lucina is to Marth, because he literally is almost 100% the same as Pit. He might end up completely irrelevant as a character, but he won't ever be ranked that far away from Pit due to their sheer similarity.

 

Corrin's high up too. I don't even think she's top 15 or 20 anymore. Maybe 25ish maybe? Should go down to D tier. Definitely not better than Marth.

Ryu's top ten as usual, though I don't feel he'll be keeping that spot for long. Probably drop down to top 15? I don't know since I'm still on my way to be an expert, but that's what I think, and I could be wrong.

As a Corrin main I think their fine in terms of what kind of tier they're on but shouldn't be that low. It wouldn't make sense to throw them behind Marth, though I admit their edge-guarding and throwing game is meh, Corrin has ridiculous ranges and a tipper game of their own to make up for it. Plus getting oppenents at the tip is honestly easier than Marth's in this game, which is why they can't be that bad to the point their worse than Marth. Also, you're assumption on Ryu could very well be possible. ZSS was godlike before these newbies came along and look what happened to her. The same thing could happen with Ryu, Shiek, Diddy, hell even Mewtwo could go down as bad as ZSS.

 

How the hell is Zero Suit not S?

 

Long story short, she hasn't been doing so hot in the competitive scene, her only big win was the recent Smash con that was it, otherwise not that great.

 

Corrin has ~ a tipper game of their own

Off topic of the tier list here, I just want to elaborate on this statement for everybody, because you'd be surprised how many people don't actually know this.

Only Corrin's smash attacks (and Side B) have "tipper" effects. His sword does not have a tipper effect, meaning it's like a standard sword that deals the same damage and knockback along the whole blade. You'd be surprised how many people think his sword works just like Marth's, when it doesn't.

While his smashes have tipper effects, the tipper effect is only on his lance like parts of his body. This means that only his leg in his Down Smash has a tipper effect; the sword deals consistent damage and knockback wherever it hits.

What's more, Corrin's "tippers" are no where near what Marth's tippers are. Corrin's smashes are more akin to Mario and Samus's Fsmashes. These moves essentially have a tipper effect, dealing below average knockback at close range, and dealing above average knockback at the max range. The reason I say Corrin's smashes are more like these and not Marth's is because Corrins's smashes have KO power similar to Mario and Samus, and are far from Marth's.

For example, Marth's Fsmash when sweetspotted (tipped) KO's on average, at around 75% center stage. Corrin's does not KO that early, and KO's at around 105% center stage when sweetspotted (tipped). For comparison, both Mario and Samus's Fsmashes KO at both around 100% center stage when sweetspotted (tipped).

TL;DR: Corrin's "tippers" are only on his smash attacks, of which they are only on his lance like body parts, not his sword, and work more like traditional sweetspots like Mario and Samus's Fsmash sweetspots, and not at all like Marth's tippers. Corrin does not have any tipper effect on any other moves in his moveset other than his smash attacks.

 

You'd be surprised how many people think his sword works just like Marth's, when it doesn't~
What's more, Corrin's "tippers" are no where near what Marth's tippers are. Corrin's smashes are more akin to Mario and Samus's Fsmashes. These moves essentially have a tipper effect, dealing below average knockback at close range, and dealing above average knockback at the max range. The reason I say Corrin's smashes are more like these and not Marth's is because Corrins's smashes have KO power similar to Mario and Samus,

... first of all, I totally agree that their chainsawish sword doesn't work like Marth's why would they even say that? Second, It's just my opinion I don't want a controversy as much as the next guy, so I won't even bother arguing back. Third... many people don't realize the potential they have, as much as we Corrin mains don't realize how not fantastic they are. I just say their few tippers are easier than Marths because his hitbox and sweetspots are much harder to land compared to his other appearances.

 

DIDDY #1 AGAIN!

Finally, been waiting for this affirmation for months!

HOO-HAH NATION LIVES AGAIN!

HOO

HAH

 

um okay... that seems a little biased about Diddy being number one, honest to god did he really deserve it.

 

This is why Tier lists cant be taken all seriously, because it has a big flaw. They dont take Japanese meta in consideration, this is a only western-American based tier list in terms of accuracy. Japanese meta is very important to this game and they're always developing new stuff, as we could see how Kamemushi's Mega Man destroyed ZeRo on a major, a character was considered bad, now made a huge leap and it's high tier. Soon enough you'll see how wrong you are again with other characters like Link for example, which is very underrated.

 

Megaman really does deserve a lot of credit considering the huge performances he's been having at majors lately especially considering he's one spot behind Villager, a recovery god in his own right. These players are the real reason most of these characters are seeing a huge boost in the tiers, Mewtwo with Abadango, Megaman with Scatt and Kame, Fox with Larry Lurr, and a select few. Link is a bit heavy and his moves are rather gimpable, but their not horrible tho.

 

He got 17th at LTC4 with solo Roy, if thats something.

And on the topic of , I know he's low tier, but bottom 6? No. Roy should be at the top of G or the bottom of F at the least. Around where Link is. With Ryo's performence at Smash Con at some work being done by Sethlon (17th at LTC4) He should at te very least be there.

Yeah, but that's it. He got 67th at SSC, not really that noteworthy. Sethlon is good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't there yet in Smash4. Ryo, again, he uses Corrin and Ike more often.

Roy's position reflect his current spot in the meta pretty well. He has potential, but atm that is not showing. That's all his position shows.

 

I'll believe you when Ryu starts to get consistent results and Sheik and Diddy don't.

And I'll show you when the meta realizes Ryu is a good character and it's not just Trela that's noticed Ryu's potential.

 

And I'll show you when the meta realizes Ryu is a good character and it's not just Trela that's noticed Ryu's potential.

If Trela got consistent results on a national level, you'd have something going here. Diddy and Sheik do get consistent results through ZeRo, VoiD, and Mr. R.

 

... first of all, I totally agree that their chainsawish sword doesn't work like Marth's why would they even say that? Second, It's just my opinion I don't want a controversy as much as the next guy, so I won't even bother arguing back. Third... many people don't realize the potential they have, as much as we Corrin mains don't realize how not fantastic they are. I just say their few tippers are easier than Marths because his hitbox and sweetspots are much harder to land compared to his other appearances.

Don't head on the defensive. In no way was my post aimed at you personally. I even put "I just want to elaborate on this statement for everybody". Don't worry, I was merely making conversation.

 

I'm glad that Samus is no longer bottom tier. I still think she deserves higher but oh well. Lucas in mid tier is nice. Marth and Lucario in high tier and DDD in bottom tier though?

 

Triple D is pretty bad tho, he has a projectile that is balls easy to knockback and rather predictable kill moves. Lucario is good don't get me wrong, especially at full power. But I agree with Marth being high tier it's his worst rendition in the series, I guess his tipper game is good enough to get him this far I don't know.

 

I figured Samus was low tier, but who even represented for her?

 

I think that Kirby and Samus could go a bit higher but otherwise, I don't have a problem with the list.

 

Uhm... Finally an official tier list with all chars. Luigi and Roy are too low, in my opinion... Why Pit and Dark Pit have a 2 char distance?

 

I'm sorry, but you have made a huge error in choosing that image.

Spoiler: Best Image

View attachment 116100

Dude, do you even meme?

---

My thoughts on this, are aside from a couple of characters maybe swapping their positions around 1-2 spots, this is incredibly accurate, There aren't really any characters I feel should make huge rises like before.

Really pleased with how Marth has developed. It's well and truly one of the best rewards players who have stuck with him since release can get.

That's a good meme. But it pales in comparison to the original lord and savior, Francis of The Filth.
_____________________________
To keep this post relevant to the discussion, I'm glad to see the boy is low tier where he belongs unlike the last list where he was unreasonably high compared to others. Hopefully people that think Roy is still a secret high tier will realize that he's still merely a boy desperately in need of changes and buffs. I don't know why anybody thought he was anywhere close to Falcon's level or even above when Falcon was cosidered as a Top 10/15 by many at the time and for good reason.

 

That's a good meme. But it pales in comparison to the original lord and savior, Francis of The Filth.
_____________________________
To keep this post relevant to the discussion, I'm glad to see the boy is low tier where he belongs unlike the last list where he was unreasonably high compared to others. Hopefully people that think Roy is still a secret high tier will realize that he's still merely a boy desperately in need of changes and buffs. I don't know why anybody thought he was anywhere close to Falcon's level or even above when Falcon was cosidered as a Top 10/15 by many at the time and for good reason.

Oh, he's by no mean close to Falcon at all right now, and most likely will never be. I just feel like nobody knows what he does, even Zero says he doesn't have a reliable combo throw past about 80% even when DThrow Fair works until about 100 on most characters and DThrow Uaie even longer.
If you know what to do, a Nair 2, DThrow or Jab at low %'s can lead into a guaranteed 30% unless your name is Mewtwo, and even then, he can get caught in Nair 2-Nair-Fair-Fair. I'll die by the words "Roy is a mid tier" but until we can prove it, it's baseless

 

While I initially disagreed with Pika's low placing (personal bias), I've come to agree. He's almost nowhere to be found in tournament results -- even ESAM places at only decent levels these days.
Though Diddy's got me confused. I'm more surprised that he's #1 than I am Cloud's #2 (and that is pretty questionable, too; Cloud is better than Rosalina and Sheik?!). Granted, in this metagame, it's incredibly difficult to pinpoint the best character. Personal best guess for #1 is either Sheik or Rosalina, despite Rosalina's bad MUs.

 

Sheik? unless she gets pulverized by yet another huge nerf patch maybe. Rosaluma? Never!!! She is almost as light as Jiggs and without Luma is only okay. Although it is ridiculous that Diddy is the best in the game, it makes sense, he's been winning almost every tourney and has placed top eight almost every single time.

 

I almost completely disagree with the entire list, in fact, I believe it is complete and udder garbage

 

If Trela got consistent results on a national level, you'd have something going here. Diddy and Sheik do get consistent results through ZeRo, VoiD, and Mr. R.

That's because more people have realized Diddy and Sheik's cheap potential. Trela seems to be the only person whose been able to use Ryu's tech skill and combos.

 

That's because more people have realized Diddy and Sheik's cheap potential. Trela seems to be the only person whose been able to use Ryu's tech skill and combos.

When was the last major tournament Trela made top 8 at? His tech skill and combos aren't really doing him favours if he can't make top 8. Results trump everything.

 

Everybody sleeping on . As soon as the edge guard meta evolves she's going to sky rocket to mid tier.

The only places Jiggs is skyrocketing is to the blast zones, bro.

 

People are overrating the hell out of Cloud. He is top tier but not #2. He's way too inconsistent results wise and still has his weaknesses to be considered there.

The only high ranking players that aren't inconsistent with results haven't won a major (Fatality, Dabuz, etc). And even then, there's quite a fair share of inconsistency.

Zero, Anti, Nairo, Abadango, and Ally, aka the winner of the last few 1v1 Smash 4 majors, have all been very inconsistent, ranging from winning tournaments without dropping but a half dozen games and looking quite solid to not even making top 8 and looking very shaky and vulnerable to upsets.

Zero, the defending EVO Champion, got 3rd at EVO after losing an early pools match and being sent to losers, where he went last game last stock to even make top 64, while Anti (the winner of the previous major CEO and a Mario/Cloud main) didn't even make top 32. Yet, Olimar, Robin, Game & Watch, Pit, Toon Link, and Marth mains made top 32. All of those characters are at least a dozen spots below Cloud AND Mario on the tier list too.

There really is no consistency among the top players or characters. The game balance in the current meta, rage, unfamiliarity with characters/playstyles/players, all kind of things related to character/player match ups, tournament nerves, player inconsistency (between what "them at their best vs. worst" looks like), tournaments having best of 3's... all that has a big effect on this.

Ironic too, because just a year ago one man was running over everybody and we felt we had a stable-ish tier list with only a few evolutions at a time, and now, everybody is running over everybody and just thinking about the tier list feels like a bloody madhouse!

Eventually it will get (mostly) sorted out, but right now there's just like 2 gigantic messes of characters below the top 15 or so up to like Charizard near the bottom 5 that's just all over the place.

Really, we should be willing to accept that just about anything can happen from the C tier to F tier right about now (as well as half of the G and B tier too).

 

Good List Overall. But I think that Cloud is better than Diddy, Zero Suit should be under bayonetta, Corrin should be at the bottom of A, Ike should be above Bowser, Link and Duck Hunt should be below Falco, Wii Fit Trainer Bowser Jr and Dr Mario should be a tier higher, Roy and Charizard swap, and Ganon should be at the top of bottom tier

 

Good List Overall. But I think that Cloud is better than Diddy, Zero Suit should be under bayonetta, Corrin should be at the bottom of A, Ike should be above Bowser, Link and Duck Hunt should be below Falco, Wii Fit Trainer Bowser Jr and Dr Mario should be a tier higher, Roy and Charizard swap, and Ganon should be at the top of bottom tier

This sure is a funny way to show how this is a good list if your asking for that many tweaks.

 

Remember when Roy was released and everyone was having a mild heart-attack about how good he was? I mean, I personally think he is about mid-tier, but still.

 

He can still be at least close to high tier if somebody (cough Ryo) would pick him up and prove everyone wrong about him. Scatt and Kame did it with Megaman why not Roy?
edit: I know Ryo wouldn't do it that often and probably get his ass whooped but still at least someone.

 

A majority of this list is pretty solid.

Though I don't agree with
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Also seems oddly low considering Tai's results with him recently, but eh.

Are you trying to say Cloud is worse than Mario? -_-

 

Are you trying to say Cloud is worse than Mario? -_-

Yes.

Not only has Mario gotten better results than Cloud, Mario has less exploitable weaknesses

 

no he's trying to say fox should be better which makes absolutely no sense what so ever despite Lurrs gameplay with him.

 

you could also be lucina and be placed two entire tiers below marth

Spoiler alert...Lucina is bad compared to Marth so she has poor relults

 

Yes.

Not only has Mario gotten better results than Cloud, Mario has less exploitable weaknesses

Please tell me this is a troll...

 

It is, saying cloud is worse than Rosaluma and especially fox is totally trolling (that and maybe a hair bullcrap).