4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0

Many fighting game communities will often make a tier list for their game, often as a reference for discussion of tournament viability. Smash is certainly no exception, with tier lists for all Smash games, and with Back Rooms often being the main body that organizes and crafts them with the help of correspondents and members.

The first Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U tier list was released in Spring 2016, for Patch 1.1.3. It's been nearly half a year, and the meta has seen shocking shifts in its rulesets, character viability and more thanks to 3 new patches and 2 new characters.

As a disclaimer, the 4BR acknowledges that tier lists aren't always accurate and are often controversial. However, we do want to study the game and give a take on the current meta, adding yet another important snapshot to the history of the game.

The community has been vigilant for this game since the very beginning, with 2016 being a fantastic year thus far for Smash. From competitors and dataminers to content creators and tournament organizers, it's been quite the ride. And with the future for Smash 4 getting bigger and brighter, it's only natural to say that the meta will constantly evolve as time goes on. With that out of the way, we'd like to introduce you to the second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Procedure

Starting in early June 2016 (after Smash 'N' Splash 2), we asked 4BR members to distribute all the characters in the game (with the exception of Mii Fighters due to a lack of consistency regarding their legality) across tiers; players could have as many tiers as they want, and even order characters within their tiers. Players had to assume that this was under Version 1.1.6 of the game and that customs were off. In addition, players were allowed to place Miis (either under their 1111 loadout, or an XXXX loadout) if they so desired for an addendum. At this time, the 4BR does not have an official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters, including Mii Fighters. As with the previous vote, we also reached out to correspondents from outside the 4BR to help with this project and added a handful of applicants to the 4BR to help partake in this project.

For example, here is my vote, which was ordered within tiers:

Spoiler: Example Vote

We decided to run voting until August 8th, the week of Super Smash Con, to allow for more thoughts about July's tournaments to run in, especially EVO 2016. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 56 votes, with 31 US voters and 25 international voters.

The following people submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@---
@-6WX-
@~Pink Fresh~
@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
@Alphicans
@Ambrose
@Camalange
@Catana
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@earth_tyt
@EcneBanjo
@Espy Rose
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@FullMoon
@Ghostbone
@istudying
@JJROCKETS
@John12346
@kameme8808 (Kamemushi)
@KENisbg (KEN)
Gunla
@Luco
@M@v
@Marc
@Marcbri
@Meru.
@Mr E
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NickRiddle
@Player-1
@Pugwest
@qb9b (9B)
@Ray_Kalm
@Raziek
@Red Ryu
@Remzi
@RichBrown
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Seagull Joe
@Shaya
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@SSB_Ned (Ned)
@SShane (SS)
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@Tweek
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Zan-
@Zigsta

As with the previous tier list, we will not be publicly releasing individual votes; however, all voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Locuan (vote formatting) and @Shaya (processing), we were able to generate the average placements and groupings (tiers) of the cast. Furthermore, we have included standard deviations for both of these results and the weighted group score, which considered characters per group and the placement differences between v2.0 and v1.0 (with Marth and Mewtwo having the biggest jumps, both in the positive direction).

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), while a higher standard deviation shows that the character had a diverse range of placements. As expected, the further down the tier list one goes from the top, the larger the deviations tends to be. While the top and bottom tiers have lower standard deviation results, the middle and lower tiers were highly opinionated.

For the first time, our procedure for the Tier List asked voters for two things concurrently - tiers or groups of characters (similar to Wii U v1.0) and the orders for characters within them (overall 1-58, similar to many other past BR lists). The resulting lists were not completely congruent, with several small position swaps (orders were still maintained in the release). However, this gave us the means to decide our tier separations, reflecting how closely our voters put characters together in contrast to the volatility of ordered placements.

The Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom divides were decided by the group score's range (9.88 - 1.72) split equally into five. The tiers primarily express point gaps of 10-9, 9-8, etc., with two exceptions. We merged the bottom tiers (2.82 - 1.72; 1.10 range), and to coincide with the high tier's split (8.25 - 6.62), we bumped up Captain Falcon, Greninja & Lucario, creating two tiers.

As such, we would like to present you with the...

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

Smashboards Tier List Maker Version:

Addendum for Mii Fighters:

Of the votes we collected, 27 of them had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:

H:

Conclusions

With the Summer of Smash coming to a close, there have been many unique advancements in the Smash 4 metagame that will be reflected within this tier list. Ever since the first tier list was released, Bayonetta took the world by storm; two of the top tiers in the last list received big changes, knocking them down a tad; everyone picked up Cloud; and Mega Man became a big threat. Other characters became relevant thanks to buffs, such as Marth and Mewtwo. Even though future patches are unlikely, it's safe to assume that the tier list will evolve quite fruitfully, as seen with previous Smash games.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya and Locuan for their help with processing the votes and results; Camalange, Shaya, @Marc, Vayseth and Events2Compete (Joe Fattal) for assisting with the collection of outside votes; and shrooby for creating the tier list image. Lastly, I'd like to give a special thank you to all the voters for their time and input into crafting this tier list. I was proud to take the mantle for the second tier list and receive help from so many people.

 

While I disagree with the order of some characters in the tiers, the general placements of them are really solid I feel. It's a heck of a lot better than the last list that's for sure. The only things that really jump out at me are Cloud's placement (Not a single Cloud in top 16 of EVO or CEO, and not one in top eight of Super Smash Con. And no Anti pulling him out for one set does not count). The gap between Pit and Dark Pit (they're practically the same character come on). And I feel that DK and Marth are a bit too high (but that's personal opinion more than anything else). Overall good job guys.

 

falco is so low :O. other than that everything looks great, still feel like peach is underrated tho

 

Fox and Zero Suit needs to be switched imo

 

Notice how the standard deviation of votes goes from relatively low, to high, to really high, then back to low as you go down the list. Very interesting.

 

Nice that Palutena isn't as super low anymore. Kinda wonder where she would be if she could still use her customs (dead horse, I know...).

 

I can't help but feel that Kirby should be lower-mid or middle tier. I mean, I've personally never been to a tournament, but I've done pretty decent with him...

 

The place where you put Toon Link is spot on. Wario's a bit lower than he should be but to be fair he has next to no results.
King Dedede is slightly lower than he should be, 8th or 7th worst imo.
Good work though!

 

Ayyeee & hopefully we DONT Get Another patch because this i sperfectly fine & perfectly Balanced

If it was perfectly balanced every character would be at the #1 placing, and since perfectly balancing literally any fighting game is impossible... patches are still a possibility. They always will be.

 

Wonder how Ally feels about Mario being an official top 5 character now

 

Wonder how Ally feels about Mario being an official top 5 character now

He decided to throw some more random up smashes at it.

Didn't eat any worthwhile punishes.

 

Yeaaaah! Samus isn't in the bottom anymore. :D
Yeah, that's the only thing I care about.

 

This looks MUCH better than the first tier list; I can actually take this one seriusaly. However, there are still a few flaws. The biggest ones are:

• and are nowhere near where they are placed. Looking at the top tier on the list, Marth goes -2 aganist a ton of them, as well as Mega Man and Pac-Man. And I doubt Corrin does much better. They aren't anywhere near as good thertictially as people say they are either. Their strengths and matchup charts are worse than people say. I would put them in the mid-low section of D tier.
• is WAYWAYWAYWAY higher. That spot is atrocious. I would put him at the bottom of D tier. Pac-Man may not get much results, but he is good theortictially and has more potential than anyone else. He has great specials (Minus side-b for the most part), good projectiles, good recovery, pretty decent aierals, and so on. His only big flaw is having trouble killing. Looking at the top tier, his matchups aganist those characters are

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
That is really good, and the fact that only three matchups are worse than -1 suggests this is WAY too low for him. One of these days, I'm posting a HUGE esaay on why Pac-Man is underrated.

Other than those two errors though, this list is pretty good. However, there are a few others things I would change, which is:

• isn't #2 in the game anymore....... I thought everyone agreed with that???
  
• Speaking of that tier, should be a few spots higher in that tier
• is defitenly S tier by this point. He has great results and no bad matchups except .
• should be at the top of his tier. Great results from Kamemushi, and good results from others such as Scatt and Daiki, and also losing to no one except (The only -2) and only going even aganist like one other character shows that he should at least be 1st in that tier. I'd also move above too; Villager has better results from Ranai and doesn't have any matchups as bad as vs or vs as far as I am aware.
• should be C tier and not B tier
  
• should be on the top of D tier instead of C tier
• should NEVER be seperated.
  
• should be top of E tier. She has some very crappy matchups and some big flaws.
  
• should be higher in his tier
  
• is defitenly not that far away from Marth
  
• should be more of top of F tier
  
• is defitenly at least F tier by this point. His matchup spread is starting to really suck now and his results are falling a little bit. Nasubi even lost to Sethlon at smash con, a player way worse than Nasubi and who uses an even worse character.
• should be in the lower half of the tier below him. Bad mobility, bad frame data, bad recovery, and a garbage matchup spread are 4 good reasons.
  
• Should be around the end of the tier below him, similar to Link. Little Mac essentially doesn't have any aierals or air game, can rarely land, and is extremly easy to gimp. It is litertatly impossible for him to above bottom 15 with all of those fatal and destructive flaws.
  
• and should be higher in their tier.
  
• should be around where and are. should be a tier higher too
• being above Ganon is pretty much fact by this point, and I'd say she's better than and too

 

I think Mario, Rosa, Sonic, Fox, Shiek, and Toon Link are too high up, and I think Charizad, Yoshi, and Dede are too low.

 

This tier list is about as accurate as a Stormtrooper

 

Ayyeee & hopefully we DONT Get Another patch because this i sperfectly fine & perfectly Balanced

I actually agree with you on the the whole not wanting another patch thing, but this game is not perfectly balanced, if it was there wouldn't be any separate tiers, because every character would be equally viable.

 

I said noteworthy players. Sethlon hasn't done anything noteworthy with Roy in Smash4.

He got 17th at LTC4 with solo Roy, if thats something.

And on the topic of , I know he's low tier, but bottom 6? No. Roy should be at the top of G or the bottom of F at the least. Around where Link is. With Ryo's performence at Smash Con at some work being done by Sethlon (17th at LTC4) He should at te very least be there.

Also i don't think should be seperated. They are like, the exact same character. Why they were serparted is bizzare to me.

And being at 2nd doesn't seem right. and all have better results than Cloud does. The only major he's won was CEO, and ANTi was using multiple characters. Cloud should be 5th imo.

 

You could always be Charizard and be placed bottom 5

you could also be lucina and be placed two entire tiers below marth

 

I feel like this whole list wrong

 

lol at Marth and Lucina being placed two tiers apart

too many people sleep on Lucina; those people are the ones that have experienced getting tippered, but never being killed by a uncharged Fsmash center stage at 100% by Lucina

 

I still wish this tier list did away with the somewhat obnoxious amount of letters to represent tiers. I think at most going down to just D tiers as the "worst" tier would be a better way to define the difference in how characters perform, maaaaybe E. Besides established top tiers who sport all the right tools they need to do well in any situation, most of the cast below is at a comfortable mid tier range where they have just as good of a chance of upsetting the top dogs, just takes a little more work and effort for them.

To show a better idea of what I mean, here's a quick graphic I made of the official tier list with a better representation of viability. Because with the current presentation in the official tier list, Luigi is NOT viable as he's listed as a D tier character obviously and it looks much worse for him than it actually should be. There's no reason it needs to drag all the way to H tiers in my opinion.

 

Pretty solid tier list all things considered. Though I have 4 nitpicks:
1. I think that Cloud is at least top 10 or is borderline top 5. Cloud is an incredible character no doubt, he has a lot of potential that I don't think has been unlocked, he has solid results, decent matchup spread, and he's pretty easy to play yet is very rewarding. However, putting him at number 2... I can't help but disagree a bit, especially when a solo Cloud hasn't won a major yet (he has done decently yes, but he still hasn't won one).
2. I feel like Zero Suit Samus should be higher. I know she doesn't have as strong of results as Sheik, but I feel like her nerfs weren't that bad and she's still pretty good.
3. Something about putting Pit 2 characters above Dark Pit is odd to me. I feel like their differences are mostly minimal and should be right next to each other.
EDIT:
4. I think Pikachu is way too high. He's a good character, but speaking from my experiences with Pikachu and looking at his results, he's very inconsistent to play and hasn't been placing well recently. Pikachu only has ESAM carrying him and he hasn't been doing well in recent memory.

I love everything about this post...

This tier list is about as accurate as a Stormtrooper

Thank you, sir. You just JV3'd my sides

 

This seems wrong to me. They sorely underplaced Ryu, and overplaced Diddy and Sheik. I don't like this tier list. It's not accurate to the meta right now.

 

The way that there seems to be a 7 character limit per tier seems strange and unnatural. Like, only separate tiers if there's a big enough gap in viability to justify it. I doubt there's that clear a divide between say, Link and Shulk. I'm gonna ignore the Letters and just focus on the big groups here, that makes it look better to me.

Also, G&W should me mid
Also also, it is really weird that DK and Peach are between the Pits lol

 

This looks MUCH better than the first tier list; I can actually take this one seriusaly. However, there are still a few flaws. The biggest ones are:

• and are nowhere near where they are placed. Looking at the top tier on the list, Marth goes -2 aganist a ton of them, as well as Mega Man and Pac-Man. And I doubt Corrin does much better. They aren't anywhere near as good thertictially as people say they are either. Their strengths and matchup charts are worse than people say. I would put them in the mid-low section of D tier.
• is WAYWAYWAYWAY higher. That spot is atrocious. I would put him at the bottom of D tier. Pac-Man may not get much results, but he is good theortictially and has more potential than anyone else. He has great specials (Minus side-b for the most part), good projectiles, good recovery, pretty decent aierals, and so on. His only big flaw is having trouble killing. Looking at the top tier, his matchups aganist those characters are

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
That is really good, and the fact that only three matchups are worse than -1 suggests this is WAY too low for him. One of these days, I'm posting a HUGE esaay on why Pac-Man is underrated.

Other than those two errors though, this list is pretty good. However, there are a few others things I would change, which is:

• isn't #2 in the game anymore....... I thought everyone agreed with that???
  
• Speaking of that tier, should be a few spots higher in that tier
• is defitenly S tier by this point. He has great results and no bad matchups except .
• should be at the top of his tier. Great results from Kamemushi, and good results from others such as Scatt and Daiki, and also losing to no one except (The only -2) and only going even aganist like one other character shows that he should at least be 1st in that tier. I'd also move above too; Villager has better results from Ranai and doesn't have any matchups as bad as vs or vs as far as I am aware.
• should be C tier and not B tier
  
• should be on the top of D tier instead of C tier
• should NEVER be seperated.
  
• should be top of E tier. She has some very crappy matchups and some big flaws.
  
• should be higher in his tier
  
• is defitenly not that far away from Marth
  
• should be more of top of F tier
  
• is defitenly at least F tier by this point. His matchup spread is starting to really suck now and his results are falling a little bit. Nasubi even lost to Sethlon at smash con, a player way worse than Nasubi and who uses an even worse character.
• should be in the lower half of the tier below him. Bad mobility, bad frame data, bad recovery, and a garbage matchup spread are 4 good reasons.
  
• Should be around the end of the tier below him, similar to Link. Little Mac essentially doesn't have any aierals or air game, can rarely land, and is extremly easy to gimp. It is litertatly impossible for him to above bottom 15 with all of those fatal and destructive flaws.
  
• and should be higher in their tier.
  
• should be around where and are. should be a tier higher too
• being above Ganon is pretty much fact by this point, and I'd say she's better than and too

I don't think you understand PAC-MAN at all. I'm so glad that more people actually realizes that PAC-MAN is not a good character at all, something I started to stretch in the early days of Smash Wii U. Seeing him in low tier now pleases me very much, but in fact I believe PAC-MAN is bottom tier. Having the worst grab in the entire series (something you failed to note, that his grab is holding him back so much) and having a very difficult time KOing + his supposed strengths are easily counterplayed against him (by every character in the game at that), it shouldn't be hard to see why PAC-MAN is so horrendlously bad. Unless buffed, he is easily a garbage character.

People will most likely disagree with me (especially PAC-MAN players), but I'm pretty sure that I understand more about PAC-MAN than what the average player/PAC-MAN main does, seeing as how I have mained him since the release date of Smash 3DS and have got okay/decent placings with him at the BEAST tournaments.

 

Wait...Pikachu and Ness are both above Marth? But since 1.1.6 there have been way more Marths making top 8 than the two combined.

 

Cloud is too high imo, but otherwise I'm on board.

 

Everybody sleeping on . As soon as the edge guard meta evolves she's going to sky rocket to mid tier.

And then at the same time people will realize how easy it is to gimp Jiggs with footstools, because the only move that hits above her is U-air, which is really laggy. I don't see her moving out of bottom tier any time soon.

 

Awesome new list! Ignore people hating on this.
Really appreciate the effort from u guys!
Never has there been a smash where it was THIS hard to make a tierlist. Looking forward to the future where we can get closer and closer to the perfect tierlist :D

 

And then at the same time people will realize how easy it is to gimp Jiggs with footstools, because the only move that hits above her is U-air, which is really laggy. I don't see her moving out of bottom tier any time soon.

Can't get footstooled if you're doing a move. They'll just recover with jump FAir.

 

This seems wrong to me. They sorely underplaced Ryu, and overplaced Diddy and Sheik. I don't like this tier list. It's not accurate to the meta right now.

Troll?

 

While I disagree with the order of some characters in the tiers, the general placements of them are really solid I feel. It's a heck of a lot better than the last list that's for sure. The only things that really jump out at me are Cloud's placement (Not a single Cloud in top 16 of EVO or CEO, and not one in top eight of Super Smash Con. And no Anti pulling him out for one set does not count).

ANTi WON with

 

ANTi WON with

ANTi used for exactly 3 games. A more accurate statement would be " ANTi won with while also counterpicking for 3 games of grand finals and for a game against Nick Riddle."

 

I honestly am very happy with this tier list. I agree with everything except maybe Cloud.

I can see him dropping a bit (not by alot) at some point but fantastic job!

I agree. I don't think a character with recovery as bad as his (without Limit, obviously) could ever realistically be considered the 2nd best character in the game. If one were to switch his place with say, Mario, I would have literally no argument with the entire list.

 

I don't think you understand PAC-MAN at all. I'm so glad that more people actually realizes that PAC-MAN is not a good character at all, something I started to stretch in the early days of Smash Wii U. Seeing him in low tier now pleases me very much, but in fact I believe PAC-MAN is bottom tier. Having the worst grab in the entire series (something you failed to note, that his grab is holding him back so much) and having a very difficult time KOing + his supposed strengths are easily counterplayed against him (by every character in the game at that), it shouldn't be hard to see why PAC-MAN is so horrendlously bad. Unless buffed, he is easily a garbage character.

People will most likely disagree with me (especially PAC-MAN players), but I'm pretty sure that I understand more about PAC-MAN than what the average player/PAC-MAN main does, seeing as how I have mained him since the release date of Smash 3DS and have got okay/decent placings with him at the BEAST tournaments.

lol forgot about grab.

But yea, people say you can easily counterplay aganist him, but that isn't true really. Nothing he has really has much counterplay outside of being able to catch fruit, which hurts the opponent carrieing it as well because all they have is their specials

 

#TeamBTier
Though there are a few things I disagree with, who doesn't have a few things they disagree with. Right?

• Diddy Kong is not the best character in the game imo. Though he can win matches on down tilt alone, how is he better than the other top tiers?
• Charizard in Bottom 5? What justifies that outside of results? He has pretty impressive power and speed- most of which are better than all of the characters in G-tier.
  
• ROB's placement could have been higher within his tier. I understand his results are lacking, but his kit as a whole is no laughing matter.
  
• It went under the radar, but Lucas' results were just fine even before Taiheita. Mekos and Xanos had been getting good bracket results rather consistently for a while.
• Pit and Dark Pit are the same character.

 

This tier list is agreeable though I think megaman and diddy kong are bit too high in my opinion

 

This seems very pre-summer imo, with the exception of Mario. Diddy doesn't seem to be best character. Cloud, Mario, and arguably even Sheik seem far more consistent than Diddy, and while Diddy does have the best neutral in the game with banana, I don't feel its good enough personally to rank him as best character in the game when competing with the punishes of Mario and Cloud.

 

Lol. Roy being slept on hard.

 

Huh? Luigi's throw combos are definitely still stronger than ROB's. ROB just gets a 50/50 which people panic airdodge much too often. Luigi can still get insane damage off a down throw combo and has the amazing frame data all plumbers do, seeing him below ROB was definitely odd.

Having a throw 50:50 KO is better than having low% combos out of a throw. Securing the kill is always better in Smash.

 

Couple of things.

First off, Shiek shouldn't be S tier. Probably top of A tier. Zero Suit Should be S tier, Diddy isn't best character, Pikachu should be C tier, Meagan Should be C tier, Wario should be D, Pacman should be D , and Kirby should be E.

More to come soon