4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0

Many fighting game communities will often make a tier list for their game, often as a reference for discussion of tournament viability. Smash is certainly no exception, with tier lists for all Smash games, and with Back Rooms often being the main body that organizes and crafts them with the help of correspondents and members.

The first Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U tier list was released in Spring 2016, for Patch 1.1.3. It's been nearly half a year, and the meta has seen shocking shifts in its rulesets, character viability and more thanks to 3 new patches and 2 new characters.

As a disclaimer, the 4BR acknowledges that tier lists aren't always accurate and are often controversial. However, we do want to study the game and give a take on the current meta, adding yet another important snapshot to the history of the game.

The community has been vigilant for this game since the very beginning, with 2016 being a fantastic year thus far for Smash. From competitors and dataminers to content creators and tournament organizers, it's been quite the ride. And with the future for Smash 4 getting bigger and brighter, it's only natural to say that the meta will constantly evolve as time goes on. With that out of the way, we'd like to introduce you to the second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Procedure

Starting in early June 2016 (after Smash 'N' Splash 2), we asked 4BR members to distribute all the characters in the game (with the exception of Mii Fighters due to a lack of consistency regarding their legality) across tiers; players could have as many tiers as they want, and even order characters within their tiers. Players had to assume that this was under Version 1.1.6 of the game and that customs were off. In addition, players were allowed to place Miis (either under their 1111 loadout, or an XXXX loadout) if they so desired for an addendum. At this time, the 4BR does not have an official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters, including Mii Fighters. As with the previous vote, we also reached out to correspondents from outside the 4BR to help with this project and added a handful of applicants to the 4BR to help partake in this project.

For example, here is my vote, which was ordered within tiers:

Spoiler: Example Vote

We decided to run voting until August 8th, the week of Super Smash Con, to allow for more thoughts about July's tournaments to run in, especially EVO 2016. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 56 votes, with 31 US voters and 25 international voters.

The following people submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@---
@-6WX-
@~Pink Fresh~
@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
@Alphicans
@Ambrose
@Camalange
@Catana
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@earth_tyt
@EcneBanjo
@Espy Rose
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@FullMoon
@Ghostbone
@istudying
@JJROCKETS
@John12346
@kameme8808 (Kamemushi)
@KENisbg (KEN)
Gunla
@Luco
@M@v
@Marc
@Marcbri
@Meru.
@Mr E
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NickRiddle
@Player-1
@Pugwest
@qb9b (9B)
@Ray_Kalm
@Raziek
@Red Ryu
@Remzi
@RichBrown
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Seagull Joe
@Shaya
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@SSB_Ned (Ned)
@SShane (SS)
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@Tweek
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Zan-
@Zigsta

As with the previous tier list, we will not be publicly releasing individual votes; however, all voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Locuan (vote formatting) and @Shaya (processing), we were able to generate the average placements and groupings (tiers) of the cast. Furthermore, we have included standard deviations for both of these results and the weighted group score, which considered characters per group and the placement differences between v2.0 and v1.0 (with Marth and Mewtwo having the biggest jumps, both in the positive direction).

Spoiler: Voting Data

Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), while a higher standard deviation shows that the character had a diverse range of placements. As expected, the further down the tier list one goes from the top, the larger the deviations tends to be. While the top and bottom tiers have lower standard deviation results, the middle and lower tiers were highly opinionated.

For the first time, our procedure for the Tier List asked voters for two things concurrently - tiers or groups of characters (similar to Wii U v1.0) and the orders for characters within them (overall 1-58, similar to many other past BR lists). The resulting lists were not completely congruent, with several small position swaps (orders were still maintained in the release). However, this gave us the means to decide our tier separations, reflecting how closely our voters put characters together in contrast to the volatility of ordered placements.

The Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom divides were decided by the group score's range (9.88 - 1.72) split equally into five. The tiers primarily express point gaps of 10-9, 9-8, etc., with two exceptions. We merged the bottom tiers (2.82 - 1.72; 1.10 range), and to coincide with the high tier's split (8.25 - 6.62), we bumped up Captain Falcon, Greninja & Lucario, creating two tiers.

As such, we would like to present you with the...

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S:
A:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B:
C:
--------------------MID---------------------
D:
E:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F:
G:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H:

Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version

Smashboards Tier List Maker Version:

Addendum for Mii Fighters:

Of the votes we collected, 27 of them had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:

H:

Conclusions

With the Summer of Smash coming to a close, there have been many unique advancements in the Smash 4 metagame that will be reflected within this tier list. Ever since the first tier list was released, Bayonetta took the world by storm; two of the top tiers in the last list received big changes, knocking them down a tad; everyone picked up Cloud; and Mega Man became a big threat. Other characters became relevant thanks to buffs, such as Marth and Mewtwo. Even though future patches are unlikely, it's safe to assume that the tier list will evolve quite fruitfully, as seen with previous Smash games.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya and Locuan for their help with processing the votes and results; Camalange, Shaya, @Marc, Vayseth and Events2Compete (Joe Fattal) for assisting with the collection of outside votes; and shrooby for creating the tier list image. Lastly, I'd like to give a special thank you to all the voters for their time and input into crafting this tier list. I was proud to take the mantle for the second tier list and receive help from so many people.

 

Spoiler alert...Lucina is bad compared to Marth so she has poor relults

Not really.

Lucina is so far away from Marth because everybody uses Marth over her, mainly for the reason that Lucina ironically has to play the same playstyle as Marth in most cases (eg: her moves are only safe at maximum range, and are still punishable at close range, and Marth gets more reward for this playstyle). Lucina isn't really bad at all, but just struggles to stand out.

Please tell me this is a troll...

If you even took the smallest time to research, you'd realise that what Yoshister says is 100% true. To put things into perspective, Mario has won 2 supermajors. Cloud, has not. Mario also commonly places in top 8 at supermajors. Cloud, does not.

 

Let me guess, because she's an EXACT clone of Marth except losing all those satisfying sweetspots right?

 

Not really.

Lucina is so far away from Marth because everybody uses Marth over her, mainly for the reason that Lucina ironically has to play the same playstyle as Marth in most cases (eg: her moves are only safe at maximum range, and are still punishable at close range, and Marth gets more reward for this playstyle). Lucina isn't really bad at all, but just struggles to stand out.



If you even took the smallest time to research, you'd realise that what Yoshister says is 100% true. To put things into perspective, Mario has won 2 supermajors. Cloud, has not. Mario also commonly places in top 8 at supermajors. Cloud, does not.

Now that you mentioned the statistics Mario's having, I guess there is a truth to it. And Rosaluma did come close to winning her first supermajor, which I don't believe she has done before right? Shiek like zero suit hasn't been that hot either in the competitive scene. It's fox I'm skeptical about.

 

Not really.

Lucina is so far away from Marth because everybody uses Marth over her, mainly for the reason that Lucina ironically has to play the same playstyle as Marth in most cases (eg: her moves are only safe at maximum range, and are still punishable at close range, and Marth gets more reward for this playstyle). Lucina isn't really bad at all, but just struggles to stand out.



If you even took the smallest time to research, you'd realise that what Yoshister says is 100% true. To put things into perspective, Mario has won 2 supermajors. Cloud, has not. Mario also commonly places in top 8 at supermajors. Cloud, does not.

I never said she was bad I said exactly what you said. She doesn't stand out and therefore is used less and therefore has poorer results and therefore is lower on the tier list.

Mario wins more Majors because he's been in the game longer.

 

Let me guess, because she's an EXACT clone of Marth except losing all those satisfying sweetspots right?

No because a Marth with perfect spacing is better than a Lucina with perfect spacing. Lucina is only more rewarding if you are bad at spacing.

 

I never said she was bad I said exactly what you said. She doesn't stand out and therefore is used less and therefore has poorer results and therefore is lower on the tier list.

Mario wins more Majors because he's been in the game longer.

Woah woah woah, don't got on the defensive dang... as for mario, it's only a matter of time for the community to catch on to his style and with how he did in Smash Con (not bad but not great) I would say his inevitable crash might come sooner or later if a patch never comes in again. Also, know any professionals that's bad at spacing???

 

Mario wins more Majors because he's been in the game longer.

Well if that's the case, then Cloud has no reason to be above him then. Mario has more results, Cloud is still new, and has no reason to above him.

The fact that is took until only a couple of months ago for Mario to win these majors also raises a question with your reply. Surely, if Mario has been out longer than Cloud, people would be more accustomed to fighting him than Cloud, and that Cloud should be winning more, but it's almost the exact opposite.

Cloud is a noob murder at at lower levels of play. However, results have shown us that at higher levels of play, him being within the top 3, or even 5 is still debatable.

No, because a Marth with perfect spacing is better than a Lucina with perfect spacing. Lucina is only more rewarding if you are bad at spacing.

You're part right with that statement. A Marth with perfect spacing is better than Lucina with perfect spacing, correct. However, Lucina still isn't any more rewarding than is Marth with bad spacing; they are both punishable. Punishable is punishable, but the extra frames of safety on shield that Marth's tippered moves grant make a whole lot of difference in certain situations.

 

Welp, players' selections at future tournaments be like,

 

so mewtwo right whatever

 

It's better than the last tier list, but I do have my issues with it...

- Rosalina is not better than Mario. Does Mario have a -2 matchup (Meta Knight) that pretty much requires use of a secondary to cover? No, he doesn't. The only nationals Rosa has won are Apex 2016 (about 300 entrants) and WTFox 2 (about 200 entrants). Mario won EVO, which had over 2,000 entrants, amongst other, much larger tournaments like GomL. Rosalina also has to account for the fact that one attack could turn her into a low tier for 13+ seconds (accounting for the additional time it takes for Luma to die). Sure, Rosalina does have consistent results due to Dabuz and I’m not saying she deserves any lower than 5th. But, due to what Mario has done recently, I think he’s more deserving of Rosalina’s position than she is.

- Cloud is good, but he’s not better than Sheik. Sure, Limit is stupid, but he does have weaknesses. Mainly, his recovery is trash. Cloud can easily lose a stock at 0% to almost every character in the game if you aggressively edgeguard him (just look at M2K vs. that Luigi player (I forget their name) at Smash Con). His throws are probably the worst in the game, so you can kind of just sit in shield against him. His top level results are also severely lacking compared to Sheik and even Mario. He’s good, but not the 2nd best. I’d say even Mario could be better due to Mario having better results.

- People really need to stop placing Ryu on a pedestal and worshiping him until he actually does something worth mentioning. You can’t place him above Mewtwo and Bayonetta on the grounds that he has “potential” when those two have much better and more consistent results than he does. People constantly criticize those who place characters (such as Shulk and Peach) higher on a tier list because of their “potential”, but why does Ryu get a free pass? The only claim to fame Ryu has is that Trela won 2GGT: Fresh Saga, which is good for Ryu, but that tournament only had about 350 entrants. When is the last time Ryu has gotten a good placement at a “super-major” where there’s 1,000+ entrants? Exactly my point. You can’t put Ryu above characters who have proven themselves to be more worthy of his position. That’s just not fair, especially when most people go absolutely ballistic if characters that aren’t Ryu get better ranks than they deserve due to “potential”. With his current results, Ryu belongs in the B tier of this list.

- Pikachu is a little high for only having one player that doesn’t even get that great of results with him anymore. As much as I love ESAM, I think Pikachu just isn’t as good as we all thought he was.

- I think Toon Link’s position is fine, but he should be the last character in B tier instead of the first character in C tier due to his good results.

- Falcon and Lucario do not belong in high tier. Falcon’s results are simply not good enough to warrant a high tier placement. Seriously, when is the last time Falcon placed well at a big major? In the case of Lucario, I honestly feel his ranking is due to the fact that he recently beat ZeRo. People, beating ZeRo isn’t that big of a deal anymore. ZeRo’s lost to 15 people now, which is still insane, but he’s not the invincible god he once was. You can’t suddenly regard Lucario as high tier for beating one person, especially when Lucario is a character who shows up every once and awhile, places in the teens or twenties, and then disappears for like six months. Sounds like mid-tier to me.

- I’m fine with Pit’s placement, but I just have one very important question: Why are we still counting these two as separate characters? Dark Pit is just Pit with custom moves. If you can play one, you can play the other. These two should really be grouped together as one character slot. Dark Pit is not two full characters worse than Pit. The arrow and Side-B are not enough to warrant these two deserving separate tier placements.

- Why is Bowser so high? What has Bowser done to deserve this high of a placement? Lucas, Wario, and Ike all have better results than him. Heck, G&W (17th at EVO), Little Mac (9th at GomL), Palutena (33rd at SSC), and even Shulk (13th at GomL) have ALL gotten better results than him. I get that he beat Vinne’s Rosa and VoiD’s Sheik, but I don’t think that makes him deserve so high of a placement over all of these characters that have placed better at big tournaments.

- Shulk is a little too low. I’m not saying he deserves to be much higher but, for a character that got 13th at GomL, I don’t think he deserves to just barely miss being in the bottom 10.


And, one final complaint, I honestly dislike how the 4BR letters the tier lists. This is how I feel it should be lettered:

S = S+

A = S-

B = A+

C = A-

D = B+

E = B-

F = C+

G = C-

H = D

Now, why am I being so nitpicky about this? Well, us Smash 4 players just love to say how balanced our game is and how a good majority of the roster is capable of placing high at even the largest of tournaments. However, in traditional fighting game tier lists, C tier is often seen as the last viable tier with everything below that being regarded as unviable. With the D tier beginning at 23 with Yoshi (who is clearly a good character), I just feel it makes the game look bad to the outsider.

That's all of my opinions, but what do I know?

 

What you do know is that you managed to surprisingly put up what seems to be to other mods (but what do I know) a nitpicky post as long as the actual article. Should this be an achievment or trophy worthy, possibly.

 

Can someone please explain bowser above Ike?

 

It's better than the last tier list, but I do have my issues with it...

- Rosalina is not better than Mario. Does Mario have a -2 matchup (Meta Knight) that pretty much requires use of a secondary to cover? No, he doesn't. The only nationals Rosa has won are Apex 2016 (about 300 entrants) and WTFox 2 (about 200 entrants). Mario won EVO, which had over 2,000 entrants, amongst other, much larger tournaments like GomL. Rosalina also has to account for the fact that one attack could turn her into a low tier for 13+ seconds (accounting for the additional time it takes for Luma to die). Sure, Rosalina does have consistent results due to Dabuz and I’m not saying she deserves any lower than 5th. But, due to what Mario has done recently, I think he’s more deserving of Rosalina’s position than she is.

- Cloud is good, but he’s not better than Sheik. Sure, Limit is stupid, but he does have weaknesses. Mainly, his recovery is trash. Cloud can easily lose a stock at 0% to almost every character in the game if you aggressively edgeguard him (just look at M2K vs. that Luigi player (I forget their name) at Smash Con). His throws are probably the worst in the game, so you can kind of just sit in shield against him. His top level results are also severely lacking compared to Sheik and even Mario. He’s good, but not the 2nd best. I’d say even Mario could be better due to Mario having better results.

- People really need to stop placing Ryu on a pedestal and worshiping him until he actually does something worth mentioning. You can’t place him above Mewtwo and Bayonetta on the grounds that he has “potential” when those two have much better and more consistent results than he does. People constantly criticize those who place characters (such as Shulk and Peach) higher on a tier list because of their “potential”, but why does Ryu get a free pass? The only claim to fame Ryu has is that Trela won 2GGT: Fresh Saga, which is good for Ryu, but that tournament only had about 350 entrants. When is the last time Ryu has gotten a good placement at a “super-major” where there’s 1,000+ entrants? Exactly my point. You can’t put Ryu above characters who have proven themselves to be more worthy of his position. That’s just not fair, especially when most people go absolutely ballistic if characters that aren’t Ryu get better ranks than they deserve due to “potential”. With his current results, Ryu belongs in the B tier of this list.

- Pikachu is a little high for only having one player that doesn’t even get that great of results with him anymore. As much as I love ESAM, I think Pikachu just isn’t as good as we all thought he was.

- I think Toon Link’s position is fine, but he should be the last character in B tier instead of the first character in C tier due to his good results.

- Falcon and Lucario do not belong in high tier. Falcon’s results are simply not good enough to warrant a high tier placement. Seriously, when is the last time Falcon placed well at a big major? In the case of Lucario, I honestly feel his ranking is due to the fact that he recently beat ZeRo. People, beating ZeRo isn’t that big of a deal anymore. ZeRo’s lost to 15 people now, which is still insane, but he’s not the invincible god he once was. You can’t suddenly regard Lucario as high tier for beating one person, especially when Lucario is a character who shows up every once and awhile, places in the teens or twenties, and then disappears for like six months. Sounds like mid-tier to me.

- I’m fine with Pit’s placement, but I just have one very important question: Why are we still counting these two as separate characters? Dark Pit is just Pit with custom moves. If you can play one, you can play the other. These two should really be grouped together as one character slot. Dark Pit is not two full characters worse than Pit. The arrow and Side-B are not enough to warrant these two deserving separate tier placements.

- Why is Bowser so high? What has Bowser done to deserve this high of a placement? Lucas, Wario, and Ike all have better results than him. Heck, G&W (17th at EVO), Little Mac (9th at GomL), Palutena (33rd at SSC), and even Shulk (13th at GomL) have ALL gotten better results than him. I get that he beat Vinne’s Rosa and VoiD’s Sheik, but I don’t think that makes him deserve so high of a placement over all of these characters that have placed better at big tournaments.

- Shulk is a little too low. I’m not saying he deserves to be much higher but, for a character that got 13th at GomL, I don’t think he deserves to just barely miss being in the bottom 10.


And, one final complaint, I honestly dislike how the 4BR letters the tier lists. This is how I feel it should be lettered:

S = S+

A = S-

B = A+

C = A-

D = B+

E = B-

F = C+

G = C-

H = D

Now, why am I being so nitpicky about this? Well, us Smash 4 players just love to say how balanced our game is and how a good majority of the roster is capable of placing high at even the largest of tournaments. However, in traditional fighting game tier lists, C tier is often seen as the last viable tier with everything below that being regarded as unviable. With the D tier beginning at 23 with Yoshi (who is clearly a good character), I just feel it makes the game look bad to the outsider.

That's all of my opinions, but what do I know?

You seem to know quite a lot if you ask me, I liked the references

 

I like the top 10 characters but the order is weird imo.

1-Why is Cloud top 3 if his results are really lame for being a top 3 character, he is NOT top 3 at all

2- Diddy as the best character ? I dont think so

3- ZsS is too low, her results in majors are better than Fox or Sonic, so wth ?
She should be top 6 at the very least with Sonic and Fox behind her.

4- Bayonetta is too high

5- Why...why is there an S tier ?
There are not S tier potential characters.
Smash 4 already had 4 S tier characters and they nerf said characters a LOT:
Diddy Kong
Sheik
ZsS
Bayonetta.
There are not S tier characters in this game, only A.
If S tier is a thing...why arent ZsS, Mewtwo and Ryu on S tier if Mewtwo and ZsS have better results than Fox, Sonic and Cloud ???

I like the top 10, but the placement of the charactets can be much better.
Patches are not over yet i would say

 

Couple of things.

First off, Shiek shouldn't be S tier. Probably top of A tier. Zero Suit Should be S tier, Diddy isn't best character, Pikachu should be C tier, Meagan Should be C tier, Wario should be D, Pacman should be D , and Kirby should be E.

More to come soon

Both Sheik and ZsS should be S tier...why is ZsS A tier...weird af

 

How the hell is Zero Suit not S?

NERFS

 

This sure is a funny way to show how this is a good list if your asking for that many tweaks.

I could have done more. Its not bad, but its just my opinions

 

As a Corrin main I think their fine in terms of what kind of tier they're on but shouldn't be that low. It wouldn't make sense to throw them behind Marth, though I admit their edge-guarding and throwing game is meh, Corrin has ridiculous ranges and a tipper game of their own to make up for it. Plus getting oppenents at the tip is honestly easier than Marth's in this game, which is why they can't be that bad to the point their worse than Marth. Also, you're assumption on Ryu could very well be possible. ZSS was godlike before these newbies came along and look what happened to her. The same thing could happen with Ryu, Shiek, Diddy, hell even Mewtwo could go down as bad as ZSS.

As bad as ZsS...she is above ryu and metwo lol

Sheik and diddy wont be nerfed again.
Im hoping for a ZsS buff cuz she didnt deserved the 1.1.5 nerfs, they broke the character with that patch

 

I like the top 10 characters but the order is weird imo.

1-Why is Cloud top 3 if his results are really lame for being a top 3 character, he is NOT top 3 at all

2- Diddy as the best character ? I dont think so

3- ZsS is too low, her results in majors are better than Fox or Sonic, so wth ?
She should be top 6 at the very least with Sonic and Fox behind her.

4- Bayonetta is too high

5- Why...why is there an S tier ?
There are not S tier potential characters.
Smash 4 already had 4 S tier characters and they nerf said characters a LOT:
Diddy Kong
Sheik
ZsS
Bayonetta.
There are not S tier characters in this game, only A.
If S tier is a thing...why arent ZsS, Mewtwo and Ryu on S tier if Mewtwo and ZsS have better results than Fox, Sonic and Cloud ???

I like the top 10, but the placement of the charactets can be much better.
Patches are not over yet i would say

Zss Mewtwo and Ryu have NOT been doing better than sonic. Sonic has people like KEN, Komo, 6WX, Segal Joe, All Might, and Wrath dominating with sonic

 

I almost completely disagree with the entire list, in fact, I believe it is complete and udder garbage

What are your disagreements?

 

Long story short, she hasn't been doing so hot in the competitive scene, her only big win was the recent Smash con that was it, otherwise not that great.

Top 8 in every major buy CEO and Evo...now is that not that great ?

 

Zss Mewtwo and Ryu have NOT been doing better than sonic. Sonic has people like KEN, Komo, 6WX, Segal Joe, All Might, and Wrath dominating with sonic

Lol how many top 8 placements in majors for sonic so far this year ?

 

So in the end you're agreeing with me? Right BowserBoy?

 

Good List Overall. But I think that Cloud is better than Diddy, Zero Suit should be under bayonetta, Corrin should be at the bottom of A, Ike should be above Bowser, Link and Duck Hunt should be below Falco, Wii Fit Trainer Bowser Jr and Dr Mario should be a tier higher, Roy and Charizard swap, and Ganon should be at the top of bottom tier

Oh god...the main bias...it's consuming me...
Okay, I'll make this brief.
Roy bottom 5 completely implausible lol.
Anyway, I disagree with the fact that Cloud is better than Diddy. Cloud's ground game outside of limit Cross Slash is pretty bad, since most of his tilts are generally meh and his jab is (somewhat) slow, at Frame 4 compared to Diddy's for example. Cloud really hasn't done that well at top level (outside of Anti at CEO, for reasons that I'll elaborate on) considering top level play is more ground based, shield based and careful spacing based. Cloud murders low to low-mid level players because of how jumpy some of them play, and his aerial game is what makes Cloud so good. Cloud needs to get you in the air above him for him to win, something that can't really happen unless you played like Zinoto did: Jumpy, reckless and confident. To elaborate on his ground game being meh, think about it. Utilt and Dtilt have huge combo potential and get the opponent above you, but are hard to space and laggy respectively. Ftilt is slow and outclassed by Cross Slash as a DThrow followup. The one real use I can think of it is locking, along catching landings maybe? His Neutral B is slow and generally nonthreatening, as most characters can just jump over the Blade Beams to cover a ton of space, handicapping his camping. His sideB can be used in the air, so I'm not counting that, and his upB is pretty unsafe, but a decent OoS option. (Unless limit charged, aerial blade beam is negligeable). Not going to talk about smashes because they don't really account in the neutral, exempt for Fsmash which catches landings really well.
Now, look at his aerials. Nair can combo, potentially follow up out of DThrow, edgeguard fantastically and sometimes kill confirm. Uair is broken for obvious reasons, Dair is an amazing landing option, fair kills early offstage, especially with a spike, and Bair is an amazing spacing tool. Seeing a theme?
Meanwhile Diddy has a frame 3 jab, one of the fastest and best DTilts in the game, a better projectile at a good angle for offstage play, the ability to pull out an item whenever he wants (!), and varied, diverse, and numerous confirms into grabs and followups on said grabs until kill percent.
Also, Diddy's recovery, while still linear, is MUCH less linear than Cloud's and has more mixup potential. The only thing cloud really fully and completely outclasses Diddy in is camping.
Sorry for the wall of text.

 

A lot of surprising changes. has a big boost to the high rank, same goes to . has gotten lucky that he didn't go down to low tier.

 

What are your disagreements?

I'll answer this for you... EVERYTHING!!!!
Edit: Miipun's words not mine lol. 10/10!

 

You seem to know quite a lot if you ask me, I liked the references

Thanks! I really appreciate you saying that considering how much research I do on this game in order to craft my own personal tier list. I always try to reference as much as possible when I argue things like tier placements because referencing stuff like results, matchups, etc. tells why I am arguing what I am and gives my arguments legs to stand on.

 

Basically what you're saying is you made the list (well your own personal list anyway). Cool... WHY CANT'T CORRIN BE HIGHER???*sobs uncontrollably.

 

Please tell me this is a troll...

Ok.

If you're so confident that it's the case, please explain to me how Cloud is better than Mario, Fox, and Rosaluma.

 

Man you people really want to backlash on Cloud today don't yas???

 

Man you people really want to backlash on Cloud today don't yas???

I dunno, saying Cloud isn't top 2 isn't really backlash considering that there's not much to support it (AFAIK anyway).

 

Again, another half-baked, exclusive invite list that's begging to become out-dated as soon as possible. Also aiming to prove that no one has even tried using Jigglypuff seriously.

 

Again, another half-baked, exclusive invite list that's begging to become out-dated as soon as possible. Also aiming to prove that no one has even tried using Jigglypuff seriously.

Didn't RDR7 do so until he stopped playing?

 

If she played like melee maybe they would lean more towards her but all in all good freakin luck Jiggs.

 

What are your disagreements?

I went to far on the, "Literal garbage"
Top Tier:
I think is S tier, great results, not so much as a glass cannon anymore, if you play safe with him, and really make your punishes as best as can be. Good Neutral, combos that are insane. Can get out of combos by being light, and the best air dodge in the game.

The Top row for me is really iffy for me, but I think is the best in the game right now, the least flaws imo. and get gimped a bit to easy, making them have some, "ehh" match ups, most characters that or considered mid-top tier, have decent edge guarding.
, think some characters bellow her, are better than her.

High:
are Top Tier IMO. Pikachu has great match ups, neutral, recovery, edge guarding, etc... Note, these 4 characters are the ones I think are better than Bayo. Mk still has up air up b combo, and horizontal combos using dair, and he is generally really scary. Villager has great ledge traps with tree, and bowling ball, but even tho he loses to Rosa pretty bad, he can still use mind games against her. Corrin is really good! Great projectile, side b alone can literally change a match. Good combos, amazing recovery on duck hunt, and pretty good on any other stage.

is bout bottom of high tier imo, I just think the char. above him, are better.

I think high tier is more like
B:
C:
Wario cuz waft, command grab in air, fast aerials, great approach, etc...I'd write more, I'll right more, I'm just about to pass out. Tell me what you think, and thanks for responding

 

I went to far on the, "Literal garbage"
Top Tier:
I think is S tier, great results, not so much as a glass cannon anymore, if you play safe with him, and really make your punishes as best as can be. Good Neutral, combos that are insane. Can get out of combos by being light, and the best air dodge in the game.

The Top row for me is really iffy for me, but I think is the best in the game right now, the least flaws imo. and get gimped a bit to easy, making them have some, "ehh" match ups, most characters that or considered mid-top tier, have decent edge guarding.
, think some characters bellow her, are better than her.

High:
are Top Tier IMO. Pikachu has great match ups, neutral, recovery, edge guarding, etc... Note, these 4 characters are the ones I think are better than Bayo. Mk still has up air up b combo, and horizontal combos using dair, and he is generally really scary. Villager has great ledge traps with tree, and bowling ball, but even tho he loses to Rosa pretty bad, he can still use mind games against her. Corrin is really good! Great projectile, side b alone can literally change a match. Good combos, amazing recovery on duck hunt, and pretty good on any other stage.

is bout bottom of high tier imo, I just think the char. above him, are better.

I think high tier is more like
B:
C:
Wario cuz waft, command grab in air, fast aerials, great approach, etc...I'd write more, I'll right more, I'm just about to pass out. Tell me what you think, and thanks for responding

I think Marth is still way above Lucina. And too high in general. And is Ness still that good? I haven't fought a decent Ness in awhile, but a couple of Lucases have been making my life difficult (when they show up, that is)

 

I think is the best in the game right now

the least flaws

Rosalina is the only top tier character to have a -2 losing matchup. She is yet to win an important major, like the majors Diddy, Sheik and Mario have all won. What's more, she has actual counter-play; get rid of Luma. Because of this, she also has a tough time against disjoints, mainly due to their ability to hit Luma from a safe distance without being punished most of the time. Other top tier characters don't have as many things to exploit as this.

TL;DR: Rosalina has no reasons to be the best character, especially when you consider she is the only top tier to have a -2 matchup, and still hasn't won anything notable.

 

Lol. Roy being slept on hard.

Ever consider he's just bad?

 

The only high ranking players that aren't inconsistent with results haven't won a major (Fatality, Dabuz, etc). And even then, there's quite a fair share of inconsistency.

Zero, Anti, Nairo, Abadango, and Ally, aka the winner of the last few 1v1 Smash 4 majors, have all been very inconsistent, ranging from winning tournaments without dropping but a half dozen games and looking quite solid to not even making top 8 and looking very shaky and vulnerable to upsets.

Zero, the defending EVO Champion, got 3rd at EVO after losing an early pools match and being sent to losers, where he went last game last stock to even make top 64, while Anti (the winner of the previous major CEO and a Mario/Cloud main) didn't even make top 32. Yet, Olimar, Robin, Game & Watch, Pit, Toon Link, and Marth mains made top 32. All of those characters are at least a dozen spots below Cloud AND Mario on the tier list too.

There really is no consistency among the top players or characters. The game balance in the current meta, rage, unfamiliarity with characters/playstyles/players, all kind of things related to character/player match ups, tournament nerves, player inconsistency (between what "them at their best vs. worst" looks like), tournaments having best of 3's... all that has a big effect on this.

Ironic too, because just a year ago one man was running over everybody and we felt we had a stable-ish tier list with only a few evolutions at a time, and now, everybody is running over everybody and just thinking about the tier list feels like a bloody madhouse!

Eventually it will get (mostly) sorted out, but right now there's just like 2 gigantic messes of characters below the top 15 or so up to like Charizard near the bottom 5 that's just all over the place.

Really, we should be willing to accept that just about anything can happen from the C tier to F tier right about now (as well as half of the G and B tier too).

I agree with this, but Cloud as a whole is just very inconsistent as a character based on results. Yes, he does have a good tool kit, but some of the characters below him have a much better MU spread than him and arguably some of them beat him or go even.

Plus, he still has his flaws, and his recovery and okay shield pressure are some of them. Cloud is good, BUT not enough to warrant a #2 placing on this list.

 

Cloud's spot here may not reflect his placings at nationals, more so just how much rep he has. Most top players have at least a pocket Cloud, and honestly so do most players overall. He also has incredible results at regionals and locals.

Having a bad disadvantage state is a problem, to which I do agree that he should at most be 3rd in the list below Sheik.