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4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0

Many fighting game communities will often make a tier list for their game, often as a reference for discussion of tournament viability. Smash is certainly no exception, with tier lists for all Smash games, and with Back Rooms often being the main body that organizes and crafts them with the help of correspondents and members.

The first Super Smash Bros. for 3DS and Wii U tier list was released in Spring 2016, for Patch 1.1.3. It's been nearly half a year, and the meta has seen shocking shifts in its rulesets, character viability and more thanks to 3 new patches and 2 new characters.

As a disclaimer, the 4BR acknowledges that tier lists aren't always accurate and are often controversial. However, we do want to study the game and give a take on the current meta, adding yet another important snapshot to the history of the game.

The community has been vigilant for this game since the very beginning, with 2016 being a fantastic year thus far for Smash. From competitors and dataminers to content creators and tournament organizers, it's been quite the ride. And with the future for Smash 4 getting bigger and brighter, it's only natural to say that the meta will constantly evolve as time goes on. With that out of the way, we'd like to introduce you to the second official tier list for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Procedure

Starting in early June 2016 (after Smash 'N' Splash 2), we asked 4BR members to distribute all the characters in the game (with the exception of Mii Fighters due to a lack of consistency regarding their legality) across tiers; players could have as many tiers as they want, and even order characters within their tiers. Players had to assume that this was under Version 1.1.6 of the game and that customs were off. In addition, players were allowed to place Miis (either under their 1111 loadout, or an XXXX loadout) if they so desired for an addendum. At this time, the 4BR does not have an official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters, including Mii Fighters. As with the previous vote, we also reached out to correspondents from outside the 4BR to help with this project and added a handful of applicants to the 4BR to help partake in this project.

For example, here is my vote, which was ordered within tiers:

We decided to run voting until August 8th, the week of Super Smash Con, to allow for more thoughts about July's tournaments to run in, especially EVO 2016. Eventually, we ended up with a total of 56 votes, with 31 US voters and 25 international voters.

The following people submitted a vote:


As with the previous tier list, we will not be publicly releasing individual votes; however, all voters are free to share their votes with the public.

Results

Thanks to @Locuan (vote formatting) and @Shaya (processing), we were able to generate the average placements and groupings (tiers) of the cast. Furthermore, we have included standard deviations for both of these results and the weighted group score, which considered characters per group and the placement differences between v2.0 and v1.0 (with Marth and Mewtwo having the biggest jumps, both in the positive direction).


Character | Ordered Average | Standard Deviation (Order) | Grouped Average | Standard Deviation (Group) | Weighted Group | Difference from v1.0
Diddy Kong | 1.32 | 1.501 | 9.88 | 0.391 | 9.95 | +8
Cloud | 2.18 | 2.18 | 9.84 | 0.418 | 9.91 | +10
Sheik | 2.66 | 2.734 | 9.65 | 0.7 | 9.82 | -2
Rosalina | 3.39 | 2.085 | 9.66 | 0.634 | 9.85 | -1
Mario | 4.88 | 2.443 | 9.33 | 0.786 | 9.62 | +3
Sonic | 5.39 | 2.756 | 9.29 | 0.733 | 9.61 | ±0
Fox | 5.88 | 2.376 | 9.15 | 0.776 | 9.56 | ±0
Zero Suit Samus | 7.09 | 2.182 | 8.83 | 0.782 | 9.28 | -6
Ryu | 8.41 | 4.165 | 8.68 | 0.874 | 9.14 | -5
Mewtwo | 8.46 | 3.07 | 8.72 | 0.73 | 9.21 | +27
Bayonetta | 8.93 | 3.914 | 8.74 | 0.885 | 9.14 | New
Pikachu | 13.88 | 3.274 | 7.67 | 0.9 | 8.26 | -7
Meta Knight | 14.54 | 5.931 | 7.62 | 1.092 | 8.17 | -4
Villager | 15.07 | 4.358 | 7.51 | 0.806 | 8.08 | -3
Mega Man | 15.93 | 5.837 | 7.4 | 0.937 | 7.95 | +13
Ness | 16.39 | 4.916 | 7.41 | 1.068 | 8 | -3
Toon Link | 16.64 | 3.739 | 7.23 | 0.836 | 7.82 | +5
Corrin | 17.85 | 6.337 | 7.15 | 1.107 | 7.66 | New
Marth | 19.36 | 6.852 | 7.01 | 1.063 | 7.47 | +23
Captain Falcon | 20.95 | 4.615 | 6.72 | 0.922 | 7.26 | -6
Greninja | 21.11 | 5.731 | 6.8 | 1.052 | 7.32 | +4
Lucario | 21.52 | 5.405 | 6.63 | 0.968 | 7.14 | +1
Yoshi | 23.64 | 5.201 | 6.42 | 0.984 | 6.9 | -8
Pit | 23.73 | 6.264 | 6.39 | 1.115 | 6.83 | -6
Donkey Kong | 24.41 | 4.854 | 6.27 | 0.98 | 6.68 | +2
Peach | 24.52 | 5.898 | 6.2 | 1.079 | 6.64 | -7
Dark Pit | 24.89 | 5.888 | 6.27 | 1.044 | 6.68 | -10
R.O.B. | 25.64 | 5.393 | 6.08 | 1.17 | 6.51 | -8
Luigi | 27.34 | 6.583 | 5.95 | 1.126 | 6.26 | -13
Olimar | 30.93 | 7.914 | 5.62 | 1.338 | 5.94 | -6
Robin | 30.98 | 6.396 | 5.42 | 0.931 | 5.61 | ±0
Bowser | 31.55 | 5.812 | 5.23 | 1.018 | 5.4 | -2
Lucas | 32.18 | 7.071 | 5.17 | 1.149 | 5.34 | +3
Wario | 32.61 | 4.471 | 5.26 | 0.943 | 5.43 | -13
Ike | 32.68 | 5.711 | 5.06 | 1.03 | 5.08 | -7
Lucina | 34.52 | 7.746 | 4.95 | 1.178 | 5.08 | +13
Mr. Game & Watch | 37.8 | 6.637 | 4.38 | 1.337 | 4.33 | +1
Pac-Man | 38.73 | 6.016 | 4.34 | 1.097 | 4.18 | -6
Little Mac | 38.8 | 6.891 | 4.21 | 1.149 | 4.01 | +7
Palutena | 38.91 | 5.881 | 4.11 | 1.156 | 3.94 | +12
Kirby | 39.27 | 6.413 | 4.23 | 1.166 | 4.06 | -5
Duck Hunt | 40 | 7.697 | 4.21 | 1.303 | 4.05 | +3
Link | 40.64 | 8.186 | 4.09 | 1.338 | 3.94 | +1
Shulk | 41.77 | 6.753 | 3.86 | 1.267 | 3.6 | -2
Samus | 42.66 | 6.459 | 3.71 | 1.186 | 3.49 | +8
Bowser Jr. | 43.18 | 5.907 | 3.61 | 1.138 | 3.33 | -10
Wii Fit Trainer | 43.18 | 5.465 | 3.65 | 1.043 | 3.35 | -5
Dr. Mario | 45.16 | 4.554 | 3.47 | 1.051 | 3.11 | -1
Falco | 45.75 | 4.141 | 3.25 | 1.036 | 2.86 | -9
Roy | 46.02 | 5.323 | 3.38 | 1.191 | 3.08 | -15
Charizard | 48.27 | 3.763 | 2.82 | 1.077 | 2.48 | ±0
King Dedede | 49.02 | 4.06 | 2.7 | 1.146 | 2.32 | -6
Mii Gunner | 51.26 | 6.322 | 2.28 | 1.124 | 1.7 | +2
Mii Brawler | 51.89 | 6.696 | 2.26 | 1.316 | 1.76 | -3
Zelda | 52.07 | 2.235 | 1.92 | 0.616 | 1.49 | +3
Ganondorf | 52.66 | 2.254 | 1.9 | 0.651 | 1.47 | ±0
Mii Swordfighter | 53.85 | 3.951 | 2.04 | 0.947 | 1.53 | -2
Jigglypuff | 53.98 | 1.433 | 1.72 | 0.604 | 1.35 | -1

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the average (mean), while a higher standard deviation shows that the character had a diverse range of placements. As expected, the further down the tier list one goes from the top, the larger the deviations tends to be. While the top and bottom tiers have lower standard deviation results, the middle and lower tiers were highly opinionated.

For the first time, our procedure for the Tier List asked voters for two things concurrently - tiers or groups of characters (similar to Wii U v1.0) and the orders for characters within them (overall 1-58, similar to many other past BR lists). The resulting lists were not completely congruent, with several small position swaps (orders were still maintained in the release). However, this gave us the means to decide our tier separations, reflecting how closely our voters put characters together in contrast to the volatility of ordered placements.

The Top/High/Mid/Low/Bottom divides were decided by the group score's range (9.88 - 1.72) split equally into five. The tiers primarily express point gaps of 10-9, 9-8, etc., with two exceptions. We merged the bottom tiers (2.82 - 1.72; 1.10 range), and to coincide with the high tier's split (8.25 - 6.62), we bumped up Captain Falcon, Greninja & Lucario, creating two tiers.

As such, we would like to present you with the...

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v2.0 (Wii U Version 1.1.6)

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: :4diddy: :4cloud: :4sheik: :rosalina: :4mario: :4sonic: :4fox:
A: :4zss: :4ryu: :4mewtwo: :4bayonetta:
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: :4pikachu: :4metaknight: :4villager: :4megaman: :4ness:
C: :4tlink: :4corrin: :4marth::4falcon: :4greninja: :4lucario:
--------------------MID---------------------
D: :4yoshi: :4pit: :4dk: :4peach: :4darkpit: :4rob: :4luigi:
E: :4olimar: :4robinm: :4bowser: :4lucas: :4wario: :4myfriends: :4lucina:
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: :4gaw: :4pacman: :4littlemac: :4palutena: :4kirby: :4duckhunt: :4link:
G: :4shulk: :4samus: :4wiifit: :4bowserjr: :4drmario: :4falco: :4feroy:
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: :4charizard: :4dedede: :4zelda: :4ganondorf: :4jigglypuff:

Text Version

--------------------TOP--------------------
S: Diddy Kong, Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Mario, Sonic, Fox
A: Zero Suit Samus, Ryu, Mewtwo, Bayonetta
-------------------HIGH--------------------
B: Pikachu, Meta Knight, Villager, Mega Man, Ness
C: Toon Link, Corrin, Marth, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Lucario
--------------------MID---------------------
D: Yoshi, Pit, Donkey Kong, Peach, Dark Pit, R.O.B., Luigi
E: Olimar, Robin, Bowser, Lucas, Wario, Ike, Lucina
--------------------LOW-------------------
F: Mr. Game & Watch, Pac-Man, Little Mac, Palutena, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Link
G: Shulk, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, Falco, Roy
------------------BOTTOM----------------
H: Charizard, King Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

Graphic Version



Smashboards Tier List Maker Version:

Addendum for Mii Fighters:

Of the votes we collected, 27 of them had Mii Fighters. While we were not able to accrue enough data for XXXX Miis, we did find results with 1111 Miis, which placed them into the bottom tier as follows:

H: :4charizard: :4dedede: :4miigun: :4miibrawl: :4zelda: :4ganondorf: :4miisword: :4jigglypuff:

Conclusions


With the Summer of Smash coming to a close, there have been many unique advancements in the Smash 4 metagame that will be reflected within this tier list. Ever since the first tier list was released, Bayonetta took the world by storm; two of the top tiers in the last list received big changes, knocking them down a tad; everyone picked up Cloud; and Mega Man became a big threat. Other characters became relevant thanks to buffs, such as Marth and Mewtwo. Even though future patches are unlikely, it's safe to assume that the tier list will evolve quite fruitfully, as seen with previous Smash games.

What do you think of the tier list? Do you agree with the placements, or would you place certain characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will include statements from various members of the 4BR.

Special thanks goes to Shaya and Locuan for their help with processing the votes and results; Camalange, Shaya, @Marc, Vayseth and Events2Compete (Joe Fattal) for assisting with the collection of outside votes; and shrooby for creating the tier list image. Lastly, I'd like to give a special thank you to all the voters for their time and input into crafting this tier list. I was proud to take the mantle for the second tier list and receive help from so many people.
 
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Gunla

Comments

That depends, how unbalanced are we talking about???
That's a hard question, it's kind of subjective how unbalanced or balanced it is as a whole since it depends where your looking and what you consider valuable, the top to mid half of the cast is generally agreed upon to be pretty well balanced compared to each other, but the bottom half well, isn't. It's nowhere near as bad as it was for us Bottom Tier players as it was in Brawl and Melee, but it's still bad enough that you'll probably never see a bottom 15 character win a major (without patches of course), the players of those characters are at a big enough disadvantage where it just isn't realistic at all.

It's a very well balanced game if we only care about the upper half and are willing to look past the lower half's flaws, and similarly it's a poorly balanced game if we only look at the lower half of the cast's flaws compared to the top and don't acknowledge how well balanced it is up there. Personally, I'd say it's a moderately well balanced game with some big balancing flaws holding it back, but that's just my opinion, there's no real right or wrong answer.
 
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By the way, how come :4feroy: became lower on the tier list? I know that he isn't very viable, but isn't he created to be a lot stronger (I know strength isn't everything) than Melee? People probably didn't play enough of him to release his full potential, same goes for :4falco:.
 
There isn't alot of people to back up our boy, the only one I know of is Ryo but it's on rare occassion! As for Falco, there hasn't been one player that made him godlike... yet, they can still be possible, I'm going out on a limb and saying, mid-tier at best if someone picked them up.
 
By the way, how come :4feroy: became lower on the tier list? I know that he isn't very viable, but isn't he created to be a lot stronger (I know strength isn't everything) than Melee? People probably didn't play enough of him to release his full potential, same goes for :4falco:.
 
nah man R.O.B.'s beep boop (dthrow -> up air) is RIDICULOUS. Luigi doesn't have any kill setups NEAR that good.
Seriously, both have viable kill options, Luigi especially. Rob has his Gyro setups into a spike or uair kill, Luigi has the gimping cyclone that kills those with bad vertical recoveries (Cloud, Mario, etc.). Nuff said.
 
I went to far on the, "Literal garbage"
Top Tier:
I think :4mewtwo:is S tier, great results, not so much as a glass cannon anymore, if you play safe with him, and really make your punishes as best as can be. Good Neutral, combos that are insane. Can get out of combos by being light, and the best air dodge in the game.

The Top row for me is really iffy for me, but I think :rosalina: is the best in the game right now, the least flaws imo. :4diddy:and:4cloud: get gimped a bit to easy, making them have some, "ehh" match ups, most characters that or considered mid-top tier, have decent edge guarding.
:4bayonetta:, think some characters bellow her, are better than her.

High:
:4pikachu::4metaknight::4villager::4corrin: are Top Tier IMO. Pikachu has great match ups, neutral, recovery, edge guarding, etc... Note, these 4 characters are the ones I think are better than Bayo. Mk still has up air up b combo, and horizontal combos using dair, and he is generally really scary. Villager has great ledge traps with tree, and bowling ball, but even tho he loses to Rosa pretty bad, he can still use mind games against her. Corrin is really good! Great projectile, side b alone can literally change a match. Good combos, amazing recovery on duck hunt, and pretty good on any other stage.

:4tlink:is bout bottom of high tier imo, I just think the char. above him, are better.

I think high tier is more like
B::4ness::4marth::4megaman::4falcon:
C::4lucario::4greninja::4wario2::4tlink::4lucas::4lucina:
Wario cuz waft, command grab in air, fast aerials, great approach, etc...I'd write more, I'll right more, I'm just about to pass out. Tell me what you think, and thanks for responding
Rosalina is overrated in my opinion, yeah she has good juggling, but she has MU's Like Meta Knight where she needs a secondary. bc the MU is 70:30. (Yes its that bad).

Bayonetta is stupid, She has an amazing combo game still, can wrack up lots of damage, has which time, and has a great MU Spread.

Pikachu is mostly there because of his HUGE killing issue, and his matchup against Mario really hurts him.

Meta Knight I guess its bc of his bad neutral.

Villager is perfect where he is, I guess he can go a little higher but not by that much.

Corrin is not top tier, Her Mobility is really bad, and her up close game is not that great. plus her approach is really bad due to her iffy projectile.

Sure Wario has waft and airials, BUT THERE IS LITERALLY ONLY ONE PERSON USING HIM, AND IF YOU MISS WAFT YOUR GONNA LOSE.

Lucas plz help me explain more idk
 
Oh god...the main bias...it's consuming me...
Okay, I'll make this brief.
Roy bottom 5 completely implausible lol.
Anyway, I disagree with the fact that Cloud is better than Diddy. Cloud's ground game outside of limit Cross Slash is pretty bad, since most of his tilts are generally meh and his jab is (somewhat) slow, at Frame 4 compared to Diddy's for example. Cloud really hasn't done that well at top level (outside of Anti at CEO, for reasons that I'll elaborate on) considering top level play is more ground based, shield based and careful spacing based. Cloud murders low to low-mid level players because of how jumpy some of them play, and his aerial game is what makes Cloud so good. Cloud needs to get you in the air above him for him to win, something that can't really happen unless you played like Zinoto did: Jumpy, reckless and confident. To elaborate on his ground game being meh, think about it. Utilt and Dtilt have huge combo potential and get the opponent above you, but are hard to space and laggy respectively. Ftilt is slow and outclassed by Cross Slash as a DThrow followup. The one real use I can think of it is locking, along catching landings maybe? His Neutral B is slow and generally nonthreatening, as most characters can just jump over the Blade Beams to cover a ton of space, handicapping his camping. His sideB can be used in the air, so I'm not counting that, and his upB is pretty unsafe, but a decent OoS option. (Unless limit charged, aerial blade beam is negligeable). Not going to talk about smashes because they don't really account in the neutral, exempt for Fsmash which catches landings really well.
Now, look at his aerials. Nair can combo, potentially follow up out of DThrow, edgeguard fantastically and sometimes kill confirm. Uair is broken for obvious reasons, Dair is an amazing landing option, fair kills early offstage, especially with a spike, and Bair is an amazing spacing tool. Seeing a theme?
Meanwhile Diddy has a frame 3 jab, one of the fastest and best DTilts in the game, a better projectile at a good angle for offstage play, the ability to pull out an item whenever he wants (!), and varied, diverse, and numerous confirms into grabs and followups on said grabs until kill percent.
Also, Diddy's recovery, while still linear, is MUCH less linear than Cloud's and has more mixup potential. The only thing cloud really fully and completely outclasses Diddy in is camping.
Sorry for the wall of text.
Its fine. I changed my mind about Roy being bottom 5 the day after I made this comment. And I learned that Diddy>Cloud
 
Lucas plz help me explain more idk
I'd be happy to help M8. Lucas is a minor clone of Ness the only difference being he's stronger with better recovery options. However, most of his kill moves are either iffy with the sweetspot meteor, or just balls slow. Plus, unlike Ness, his projectiles are terribly predictable for some strange reason. That's about as much as I know, maybe being iffy is the reason he's really bad in the tier list idk.
Edit: I have really gotta take a much closer look at these lists!
 
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the top to mid half of the cast is generally agreed upon to be pretty well balanced compared to each other, but the bottom half well, isn't.
Anything particularly bad to say about certain characters

As a side note, where would you say that brink of viability ends?

BUT THERE IS LITERALLY ONLY ONE PERSON USING HIM,
I know for a fact that there's at least Reflex and Nasubi, so it's not "literally one person".
 
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No comments on Bowser's easier and more powerful uthrow -> uair? I swear it's the Hooh-Hah's second coming xD
More over than DK's "ding-dong"? Bowser's hooh-hah's are Not that easy to pull off m8, believe me I know. Plus he has a lot more damaging options than he does the uthrow->uair.
 
Really good list, amazing job. Personally, I feel like Shulk,Zard and maybe ryu should be one or two tiers above. Amazing job nonetheless
 
Yea that's not happenin' sweetheart. Even if they buff the puff, she will always be now and forever the Worst character in the game. She was bad in brawl and took and even deeper dip now.
I kinda want her to stay as the worst character, but she REALLY needs a buff cuz idk if she's even viable... :/
 
Anything particularly bad to say about certain characters
(Sorry for the late response, I saw this a day ago but kind of forgot about it lol) Eh, in terms of general consensus, a lot of people complain about Cloud needing more lag on a certain move, other than Cloud the other top characters commonly complained about are RosaLuma and Sonic from what I've seen. Personally though, I don't really find any of them to be overpowered, I'd really like Cloud to get some tweaks but I don't feel any need for them and could live without it.

As a side note, where would you say that brink of viability ends?
I think it's somewhere around Mr. Game and Watch and Pac-Man's spot, anybody below that should be at a heavy enough disadvantage to not be viable in my opinion.

Even if they buff the puff, she will always be now and forever the Worst character in the game. She was bad in brawl and took and even deeper dip now.
Eh, I don't think so, Zelda took 20+ buffs to get on/slightly above Jigglypuff's level, if Jigglypuff actually started getting buffs in the quantity most characters did I doubt she'd still be the worst. She was considerably better than Zelda, Ganondorf, etc at the very beginning of the game imo, power-creep's the main reason she's down so low.
 
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How is Lucas still this low? Have they not seen Taiheita's big results recently, especially compared to Ness's relatively low results? Maybe the results were too recent to change the tier list, but he still definitely deserves at least upper D to lower C tier.

Marth, Olimar, and Link could also move up, and Ness and Pikachu could move down, but hey, at least this list isn't as cringeworthy as the last one!
:D
 
I hate to sound biased, but c'mon now...

:4ganondorf: - I know mah boi Ganon's a terrible character, but I don't see him being the 2nd worst. Fighting Ganondorfs are scary, I'm not gonna lie, because thier punishment game makes you afraid to get smashed in the face with a bair at 60%. He has a lot of weaknesses that make him a very hard character to win with, but if he's played oatiently he can sneak up on you with his rediculous kill power. Seriously, he deserves to be at least on top of H tier...

:4kirby: - Okay, I don't understand how he's in low tier. The **** he can do and the lack of weaknesses he has gives him the potential to be AT LEAST somewhere in mid-tier. Don't get me wrong though, he does suffer some gnawing weaknesses: his low range and low weight. Other than that I'd say he's a really decent character. He doesn't deserve to be THAT low. :/

Everyone else I can agree with. But why are the two I mentioned that low? :|

:4darkpit: - Why isnt he next to :4pit:? They're identical to each other. -.-

PS: Why is :4corrinf:representing Corrin instead of the default :4corrin:? Does the Sm4sh community hate male Corrin that much? :(
Pit and dark pit have been discovered to have different hit boxes
 
Lol, man you must have came in super late to know about this. And I'm actually grateful you replied to that thread so that I could comment on this. I can see why he wants Olimar to move up since while he has a major downgrade in the number of pikmin, they're still reliable and I can see Link crawling his way up from good setups. It's Marth I'm a little sketchy about, don't get me wrong he's good but his hitbox is ridiculously picky, and even in the right hands, it's no easy task winning with him. Otherwise I can totally understand why he wants these changes.
 
Who else doesn't agree with the placment of Lucina?
I know we don't see much of her, but she's not that much different from Marth so she should be at least in the same tier as him
 
I disagree with the following:

:4falcon:>:4rob:

:4falcon:>:4luigi:
I also disagree with Bayonetta, Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, and Pikachu being that low either, and I do not agree with Marth's placment in any way, I actually think that Lucina is better *but I really cannot stand her; i'm not a fanboy*

These are just my opinion, I do not claim them to be true.
 
I actually think that Lucina is better
Earlier in the game, I would have agreed with you, but Marth was eventually buffed enough that he's better. And since Lucina's damage seems to be tied to Marth's, she's now less effective in some ways. A lot of her old low% combos don't work anymore because buffing damage buffs knockback too.
 
Good luck weasel. This guy is a hardcore Capt. Falcon lover and he really wants him to have most of the glory. But in this case, he doesn't agree with his boy being better than R.O.B and luigi, kinda strange really. Also, damn and here I thought Cloud was getting a lot of backlash for his placement you guys are going at Marth so bad is ludicrous. I'm fine with Marth, hell I don't even care about him as much, but to join on this nerf marth train the fact he's right behind Corrin is total horse****.
 
Good luck weasel. This guy is a hardcore Capt. Falcon lover and he really wants him to have most of the glory. But in this case, he doesn't agree with his boy being better than R.O.B and luigi, kinda strange really.
Why thank you sir, I take this as a compliment ;)

I have no intensions of being biased towards Captain Falcon so whenever I see something that looks unjust in my sights, I will will not let personal likings get in the way :).


Earlier in the game, I would have agreed with you, but Marth was eventually buffed enough that he's better. And since Lucina's damage seems to be tied to Marth's, she's now less effective in some ways. A lot of her old low% combos don't work anymore because buffing damage buffs knockback too.
You have some points with this.
 
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I disagree with the following:

:4falcon:>:4rob:

:4falcon:>:4luigi:
I also disagree with Bayonetta, Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, and Pikachu being that low either, and I do not agree with Marth's placment in any way, I actually think that Lucina is better *but I really cannot stand her; i'm not a fanboy*

These are just my opinion, I do not claim them to be true.
Lucina is not better than Marth at all. They should be next to each other, But marth is superior. Marth can space better and fight shields better thanks to his tipper mechanic, while lucina doesn't do as great of a job at it. Plus Marth has been getting SIGNIFICANTLY better results than Lucina who only has 2 people using her. While Marth has been consistently getting at least top 16 in tournaments thanks to Mr. E, Pugwest, Mk Leo, False, and Fuwah from japan. I do agree that Lucina should be 1 spot below marth, but she isn't better at all
 
Lucina is not better than Marth at all. They should be next to each other, But marth is superior. Marth can space better and fight shields better thanks to his tipper mechanic, while lucina doesn't do as great of a job at it. Plus Marth has been getting SIGNIFICANTLY better results than Lucina who only has 2 people using her. While Marth has been consistently getting at least top 16 in tournaments thanks to Mr. E, Pugwest, Mk Leo, False, and Fuwah from japan. I do agree that Lucina should be 1 spot below marth, but she isn't better at all
The other guy already explained it, lol I personally do not really care, Lucina is just a "Waifu" to me.
Do not worry man, I am not mad at you or anything like that, it's all good :).
 
It's true, we're all ma... I mean PIIIISSSSEEEDD at Marth for being so much better than we should give him credit for. As much as I don't care about Marth, his placement shouldn't be that high regardless of whether or not his tipper game has anything to do with his wins... I say make everything in the blade the sweetspot. Huh? Huh??!! (yea I know it won't happen it would be too easy)
 
And everyone did recognize that she was stupidly good right from the get-go. If that happens to be the case, how Mario and Ryu have pratically been untouched is insane! And Umbra ***** ain't alone, mind you Shiek and ZSS were also hammered by nerfs and still manage to be that high in the tier list... and I suppose Cloud.
 
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