4BR Official Tier List Discussion

[Myran]

Dabuz Your opinion on Olimar is astounding.

 

[Shaya]

For the sake of interest and perhaps helping some people gather thoughts about certain areas of their tier list vote
Obviously this stuff is already two patches and several months of meta advancement behind.
As the project was meant to be about just expressing a grouping's opinion, the way I interpreted a vote became pretty much anything. Although I never stated as such, it equated to a "I'm giving you 15/10 character's worth of power, use it as you see fit". Oh and in some cases I've been "lazy" (brownie points if you can spot where), although I knew the result of giving someone a little bit more or a little bit less sway would be little.
Round 1 had 15 voters, Round 2 had 19. People didn't always provide bottom tens.

Version 1 "Top 15"

Char | Average | Weighted | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | ALL |
Sheik | 1.5714285714 | 1.5714285714 | 11 | 2 | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | 1 | 15
Rosalina | 2.4615384615 | 2.6373626374 | 1 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 1 | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 14
Pikachu | 3.9230769231 | 4.2032967033 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 2 | | | | | | | | | 1 | 14
Luigi | 5.0769230769 | 5.4395604396 | | 1 | 2 | 5 | 3 | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | | | 1 | 14
Zero Suit | 5.5714285714 | 5.5714285714 | | 1 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 3 | | | | 1 | | | | 1 | 15
Fox | 6.7142857143 | 6.7142857143 | | | 1 | 2 | | 4 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | | | | | | 1 | 15
Sonic | 7.3571428571 | 7.3571428571 | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | | 1 | 1 | | | 1 | 15
Mario | 8.2857142857 | 8.2857142857 | | | | | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | 15
Ness | 8.25 | 9.5192307692 | | | | | 3 | 3 | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | 1 | 13
Yoshi | 10.2857142857 | 10.2857142857 | | | 1 | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | 5 | | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 15
Diddy | 8.3 | 11.3181818182 | | | | | | 3 | | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | | | | | 1 | 11
ROB | 11.4 | 17.1 | | | | | | | | 2 | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | | 1 | | 10
Falcon | 10.75 | 20.15625 | | | | | | | 1 | | 1 | | 2 | 4 | | | | | 8
Olimar | 11.625 | 21.796875 | | | | | | | | 1 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | 2 | 2 | | | 8
MK | 12.5714285714 | 26.9387755102 | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | | | 2 | | 3 | | 7
Villager | 13.1666666667 | 28.2142857143 | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | 2 | 2 | 1 | 7
Lucario | 12.8333333333 | 32.0833333333 | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | | 6
Wario | 13 | 32.5 | | | | | | | | | | | | 3 | | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6
Pit | 14 | 42 | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5
Brawler | 9.3333333333 | 46.6666666667 | | | | 1 | | | | 0 | | | 1 | | 1 | | | | 3
Peach | 14 | 105 | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | 1 | | 2
Roy | 10 | 150 | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | | | 1
Kirby | 11.5 | 86.25 | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 1 | | | | | 2
Ike | 12 | 180 | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | | | 1
Ryu | 14 | 210 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1
Toon Link | 14 | 210 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1
Palutena | 14 | 210 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1
Greninja | #DIV/0! | #DIV/0! | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 1

Version 2 "Top 15"

Char | Average | Weighted | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | ALL | 285
Sheik | 1.1578947368 | 1.1578947368 | 18 | | | 1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | 19
ZSS | 3.1578947368 | 3.1578947368 | | 10.33 | 5.33 | 0.33 | | 1 | 1 | | 1 | | | | | | | | 19
Pikachu | 3.5555555556 | 3.5555555556 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 1 | 1.2 | 0.2 | 0.2 | 1.2 | 1.2 | | | | | | | 1 | 19
Luigi | 4.7058823529 | 4.9673202614 | | 0.33 | 2.33 | 8.33 | 4 | 1 | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | 18
Rosalina | 5.7222222222 | 6.0401234568 | | 1.33 | 3.33 | 2.33 | 3 | 5 | 1 | | | | | | | 1 | 1 | | 18
Fox | 6.7222222222 | 6.7222222222 | | | | 2 | 6.2 | 0.2 | 3.2 | 4.2 | 0.2 | | 1 | 1 | | | | 1 | 19
Sonic | 8.1666666667 | 8.1666666667 | | | 1 | | 0.2 | 2.2 | 5.2 | 2.2 | 2.2 | 2 | | 3 | | | | 1 | 19
Diddy | 8.0909090909 | 8.7844155844 | | | 1 | | 2.2 | 3.2 | 1.2 | 0.2 | 4.2 | 2 | | 1 | 1 | | 0.5 | 1 | 17.5
Mario | 8.3888888889 | 8.8549382716 | | 1 | | | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 2.33 | 2.33 | 0.33 | 1 | | | | 18
Ness | 8.8823529412 | 9.3758169935 | | | | | 0.2 | 2.2 | 3.2 | 4.2 | 1.2 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 18
Yoshi | 9.8974358974 | 11.328390485 | | | | 1 | | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0.2 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1 | 16.6
Falcon | 11.8421052632 | 13.3663366337 | | | | 1 | | | | 1 | | 1.33 | 1.33 | 2.33 | 5 | 3 | 0.833 | 1 | 16.833
MK | 10.90433213 | 14.9590115862 | | | | 1 | | | | 1 | 1 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2.2 | 2.325 | 0.325 | | 13.85
ROB | 12.4710743802 | 19.5826787788 | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 2 | 5 | 0.2 | 2.2 | 1.7 | | 12.1
Wario | 13.6858864028 | 24.3399539768 | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | 1 | 1.2 | 2.325 | 4.1583 | 1 | 10.6833
Villager | 11.7380952381 | 35.6838095238 | | | | | | | | | | 1.33 | 1.33 | 0.33 | 2 | 0.125 | 0.125 | 1 | 6.25
Olimar | 13.3076923077 | 38.899408284 | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1 | | 2 | 2.5 | | 7.5
Lucario | 13.5454545455 | 46.7933884298 | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | 1 | 2 | 1.5 | | 5.5
Ryu | 11 | 104.5 | | | | | | | | | | 0 | 2 | | | 0 | | | 2
Megaman | 13.1666666667 | 111.1851851852 | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 0.125 | 1.125 | | 2.25
DK | 14 | 133 | | | | | | | | | | | | 0 | 1 | | 1 | | 2
Pit | 13.6666666667 | 173.1111111111 | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | 0.5 | | 1.5
Peach | 14 | 266 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | | | 1
Roy | 14 | 443.33 | | | | | | | | | | | | | 0.2 | 0.2 | 0.2 | | 0.6
Robin | 15 | 570 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 0.5 | | 0.5
Marth | 15 | 855 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 0.33 | | 0.33
Toon Link | #DIV/0! | #DIV/0! | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 | 1

Bottom 10s

Char | V1 | V2
Zelda | 13 | 13.6666666667
Samus | 9 | 13.6666666667
Jigglypuff | 11 | 12.6666666667
Dr. Mario | 10 | 10.6666666667
Mewtwo | 7 | 10.6666666667
Ganondorf | 11 | 10.6666666667
WiiFit | 13 | 8.6666666667
Palutena | 5 | 8.6666666667
Mii Gunner | 9 | 8.6666666667
Lucina | 9 | 7
Mii Brawler | 1 | 5.6666666667
Mii Sword | 10 | 5.6666666667
Charizard | 5 | 4.6666666667
Link | 3 | 4.6666666667
Shulk | 1 | 4.6666666667
Duck Hunt | 0 | 3.6666666667
Lucas | 0 | 3
King Dedede | 7 | 3
Bowser | 0 | 2
Mac | 2 | 2
DK | 4 | 2
Kirby | 3 | 1
Falco | 1 | 1
Ryu | 0 | 1
Marth | 3 | 1
Robin | 3 | 0
Ike | 2 | 0
Villager | 1 | 0
Bowser Jr | 1 | 0
Wario | 1 | 0
Megaman | 1 | 0

​

 

[Dabuz]

Dabuz Your opinion on Olimar is astounding.

Dude STFU; no matter what sort of social forum we are on every time I have an opinion on Olimar you get your panties in a bundle. (Or hell, if my name is even name dropped, AKA the competitive thread) Think I'm wrong on something? Prove it instead instead of always having some **** to say.

Edit: I'm assuming that was a sarcastic post considering it was one of the lowest Olimar placements out of everyone and you mentioned that everyone it putting Olimar low.

 

[Myran]

Dude STFU; no matter what sort of social forum we are on every time I have an opinion on Olimar you get your panties in a bundle. (Or hell, if my name is even name dropped, AKA the competitive thread) Think I'm wrong on something? Prove it instead instead of always having some **** to say.

I said astounding calm down, but if it bothers you so much I'll keep it to myself.

 

[Shaya]

I'll just step in here to say let's either halt this or restart it in a more respectful manner.
Asking someone to explain a character's position is fine. However, passive aggressive insinuations are not.

The response we're going to see will nearly always be as expected.
We don't want either of the two to be common place in this room.

 

[Myran]

I'll just step in here to say let's either halt this or restart it in a more respectful manner.
Asking someone to explain a character's position is fine. However, passive aggressive insinuations are not.

The response we're going to see from such things will always be as expected. We don't want such things to be common place in this room.

Definitely didn't mean to come off as such. I was astounded that he put him so low, and would love to debate the reasoning behind it. I may disagree with him on some things in Smash, but I don't wanna have anything aggressive of the sorts.

 

[Shaya]

Well if it's a misunderstanding or you don't get the response you expected, it doesn't hurt to say as such.

It's been a while since I've read a dabuz opinion on Oli, and his results have really fallen off in recent months. At the least I no longer hear about RichBrown or Dabuz using him with success. Average opinion is that he does well/beats ZSS still but the rest of the top tier match ups feel somewhat unknown/unseen.

 

[Myran]

Well if it's a misunderstanding or you don't get the response you expected, it doesn't hurt to say as such.

It's been a while since I've read a dabuz opinion on Oli, and his results have really fallen off in recent months. At the least I no longer hear about RichBrown or Dabuz using him with success. Average opinion is that he does well/beats ZSS still but the rest of the top tier match ups feel somewhat unknown/unseen.

I don't get to travel out of state that often, but in Florida and SoCal which have the best Olimars imo he has beaten Sheiks as well. Honestly I'd say it's still a losing MU to Sheik, Mario, Fox, and Sonic, but all the other top tiers I can think of are probably even or Olimars favor. I didn't count Yoshi cause no one does anything with him lol. What do you think holds the character back? I know there are some misconceptions that are immediately considered strong weaknesses, but aren't always the case.

As for results I have a positive record over every Sheik in FL I believe, and have beaten Nick Riddle plenty of times. I most often lose to Static Manny, but I'd put that as more of a player issue than the MU being super bad.

 

[Shaya]

His larger regional/national level results are very lacking though.
I would think apart of his continual falling out of grace is being a near unpatched character in over a year while most of the cast has been getting gradual buffs.
A year ago I would've felt confident his kit was potent enough to shut down most of the cast, had enough combo set up moves at early to mid percent. But the not-so-initially-obvious combo games of other characters have been picking up a lot in meta development as well as direct buffs that give combo and/or kill set up moves and throws. Oli's particularly poor time in the air and still relatively lacking recovery are the weaknesses that every other character in the cast has been improving in.
And then I try to wonder how Oli has advanced during this time and don't really see or hear of much.

Hopefully that makes sense, but I would summarize it all as "power creep".

 

[Myran]

I actually think he's about as good as he needs to be without changing actual Pikmin mechanics. The lack of national results also is in part to due a lot of Olimars just not traveling. I haven't been to any tournaments outside FL since Apex, and I dont think any other top ones travel to often. However he still has strong damage, and shield pressure with a variety of ways to land a kill. Whistle armor gives some clemency when trying to land, and his recovery isn't that bad imo. With no Pikmin you have a lot of freedom to move off stage often being able to juke your opponent. I'd say that if more top Olimars could/would travel he'd be more in the top placings more often. An Olimar who can abuse all of his quirks like extending lag/hitboxes, whistle, Pikmin desyncs is quite a formidable opponents, and has a place in the top 15 characters imo.

 

[Alphicans]

Yall are wrong about LM, and I hope one day me or someone else can prove it . For now I can't really argue against bottom tier placings other than saying "LOOK AT THAT FRAME DATA"

 

[Shaya]

An Olimar who can abuse all of his quirks like extending lag/hitboxes, whistle, Pikmin desyncs is quite a formidable opponents, and has a place in the top 15 characters imo.

If he has a place in top 15 now after all of this time, what was he at WiiU release then?
I won't deny that he could have a place in top 15 played optimally, and all the various mechanics you mention in full use could be feasibly dominant. A lot of those mechanics are sub-brawl strength, so for people well versed in the match up when the cast offers a wider array of competitive options against these, and when he hasn't been maintaining the results and exposure he had earlier on (i.e. almost has fallen off completely), it's hard to keep those people thinking he is a bonfide high tier+.

A point to consider is difficulty. How reliably can you maximise Olimar's potential? If other character's can achieve 90% of what Oli could possibly achieve with half the difficulty, is Oli a better character? Possibly, but for 99% of people they'll see the others as better until it can be shown otherwise.

Anyway, just thoughts rather than an argument against.

Yall are wrong about LM, and I hope one day me or someone else can prove it . For now I can't really argue against bottom tier placings other than saying "LOOK AT THAT FRAME DATA"

Ideally, he would be either directly middle or last place; depending on how you look at things in the "perfectly balanced utopia" of one's mind (mine is one where if 1/3rd to half your moveset isn't very useful or a deathwish to try, you're hurting more than most characters at this point).
He could very well be underrated, he isn't dealing with the same threats as he once was and potentially has better match ups with some of the newer threats. Stages were slightly more expansive earlier on in the game too and Mac wasn't much of a fan of several; him realistically having hard counter picks against him is very damaging to the perception of a character's viability.
Mac still probably comes off as strong character in the local regions he has mains in and that does say a lot, as many other characters couldn't come close to such claims.

What makes him standout as a middle+ character to you in terms of competence against common/popular threats?

A friend of mine who mained Mac from the beginning and reached no.1 in Melbourne (Earla) lost faith and will in dealing with a never ending camp out and the ease of him falling critically behind within a match at any time and also in a set (opponent counterpick).

 

[Myran]

He was probably like top 20/25 at release. He's only gotten better since most characters have been toned down some. As for abusing those specific things mentioned prior it's hard to an extent, but once you do it enough you get pretty consistent at being able to integrate them frequently into your play.

 

[M@v]

Yall are wrong about LM, and I hope one day me or someone else can prove it . For now I can't really argue against bottom tier placings other than saying "LOOK AT THAT FRAME DATA"

For one, it doesn't help mac's standing when you immediately switch from the character after losing a game . All joking aside, mac is the biggest glass cannon in this game. Some games I love playing him, and think he's amazing. Then I get breathed on near the edge at like 15-20%, get gimped, and want to flip a table.

Its why I have him at like bottom of mid tier; yeah he has tools to beat everyone, but also the tools to lose to everyone just as easily.

 

[Myran]

20: ZSS Sheik
19:Sonic Ryu
18: Mario FoxMetaknight
17:Yoshi Rob Wario
16:Cloud Lucas
15:
14:Bowser
13: Megaman
12:
11:Bowser Jr Falco Kirby Wii Fit Trainer
10:Lucina MarthMewtwo Doctor Mario
9: Jigglypuff
8: Ganon
7:
6:
5:
4: Samus
3:Mii BrawlerZelda
2:
1:Mii Swordsman

You forgot Olimar.

 

[Alphicans]

Trolling or not, that was a very long time ago, and mac got a massive buff with the new shield stun mechanic (fsmash now safe on shield). I think in general the character is misunderstood, or people are undervaluing neutral game. By design LM has an over powered neutral game, meaning if played smart/well he can fight and beat out any character in any given exchange. Of course if mac gets out smarted/played or punished on a mistake it can mean a lot of % (poor landing options) or death (poor recovery), so there is a weird balance to his design. I just think with such an incredibly powerful neutral game it seems ridiculous to consider him a bottom tier character.

EDIT: Also it's worth mentioning a very large number of people are excluding little mac from their lists... Is there a reason for this, or is he honestly so slept on people just forgot about his existence?

 

[Alphicans]

@Trela #HBC | Red Ryu Seagull Joe you all forgot Little mac. Everyone else that forgot earlier added him in =D

 

[Gunla]

People probably forgot him at some point. I know I forgot Shulk for a while (rather ironic seeing how I recently got his amiibo, even).

At this point, it's best to probably notify people who end up forgetting things; I'd not like to have a case where we end up losing data because it's incomplete and likely on accident.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@Trela #HBC | Red Ryu Seagull Joe you all forgot Little mac. Everyone else that forgot earlier added him in =D

Fixed my b.

 

[Seagull Joe]

@Trela #HBC | Red Ryu Seagull Joe you all forgot Little mac. Everyone else that forgot earlier added him in =D

That's what I get for trusting Trela to include every character when I quoted his and rearranged LMFAO.

 

[Raziek]

My sincerest apologies for the delay.
Maybe a WIP, but treat this as final if you have to.

20: Sheik, ZSS
19: Rosalina
18: Pikachu, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Ryu,
17: Meta Knight, Villager, Sonic
16: Cloud, Bowser, Luigi, Ness
15: Captain Falcon, Ike, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Yoshi
14: R.O.B., Greninja, Kirby, Lucas, Toon Link, Mii Brawler, Captain Olimar, Peach, Pac-Man
13: Mega Man, Little Mac, Bowser Jr., Pit, Dark Pit, Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt Duo, Wario
12: Lucario, Falco, Shulk, Jigglypuff, Roy, Mii Gunner, Dr. Mario
11: King Dedede, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, Charizard, Marth, Lucina, Mii Swordfighter, Mewtwo
10: Samus, Palutena, Zelda, Ganondorf
9:
8:
7:
6:
5:
4:
3:
2:
1:

I really don't feel that there is a huge gap between the cast. If I need to make a better spread to populate the lower rankings, let me know.

I've been trying to hold my tongue and understand that there aren't that many non-FL people who actually have any Robin experience, but I reeeeeeally can't stay quiet on this one.

I'm gonna ask for an explanation first, but having Robin below Shulk, Roy, and Link just shows a lack of understanding of how the swordsmen actually work.

Let alone being below Jigglypuff or Duck Hunt, if we're looking outside of that archetype.

 

[Spinosaurus]

17:Yoshi Rob Wario
16:Cloud Lucas

You listed ROB twice btw

 

[CHOMPY]

20.
19.
18.
17.
16.
15.
14.
13.
12.
11.
10.
9.
8.
7.
6.
5
4.
3.
2.
1.

You forgot to list

 

[Deleted member]

You forgot to list

Woops, thanks will edit now

 

[san.]

I'll probably go over my thoughts on , , default , and default in the coming days (or weeks.. lol). I need to think about what to talk about and how much.

For questions, I struggle with putting that high. His innate movements such as dash->shield are pretty limited, lack of nice aerial or spaced kill moves leaves a hole in his plan, and his recovery is not only linear, but slow. He can be good, but there's quite a bit to exploit. I feel that Roy has to work quite hard if you know how to fight against him. Did his metagame advance much in recent times?

Also, thoughts on the buffed characters?

-I think 's speed increased helped with his combos, especially when he's at low aura and when he's able to possibly kill confirm from a grab.

-'s throw always having such low knockback means that characters can't really air dodge. They are stuck in pretty bad positions. I wasn't too keen on his changes, but I think these definitely helped his neutral and advantageous MUs, but I am not sure if his disadvantages can be played around (as well as the likes of DK).

-I think has benefited since he lacks autocancels, therefore a lot of his gameplay was based on his landing lag. Less landing lag also opened up some easier combo potential that he didn't have as easily before. His fair damage is still way too low despite the buff, but his other aerials are ok. His ground attacks are still lackluster, too.

-I'm not sure if improved all that much outside of the buff to fair (thought he was good before anyways). Robin already has nice autocancels, so I think it would allow for some more variance in his playstyle. This along with the shield stun/shield hitlag buff makes it so that he's not hard punished because of the nonsensical landing lag of previous patches.

-I can't help but think that was really buffed a lot, but I haven't really played against him much to really see how much. His weight, gravity/falling speed, and size are still awful. He's not even that floaty, allowing him to be susceptible to a variety of kill combos, possibly some of the most in the game. I think this prevents him from being really high, though he could be depending on what his players develop.

- seems quite good (I did not think so before the shield stun change), but I have difficulty pinpointing much about him.

 

[Katakiri]

Seagull Joe I can shed some light on MK's negatives that probably affected his somewhat lower placements for some people.

MK's heavily reliant on his 0-deaths and early KOs to the point that he's forced to play very predictably to get those early KO which means he either risks getting read or punished or he plays without them and becomes a not-so-great character. If you know MK, you know what to expect at any given percent: 0-10% Dash Grab to F-Throw (which can be DI'd) for a 0-death attempt, 15-40% Dash Attack to Up-Airs, 40-90% a big gap of nothing important, 90-100% Late Hit Dash Attack to FH Shuttle Loop for a KO or just fishing for F-Smashes, 100+% D-Tilt and pray they miss the tech for a grounded Shuttle Loop KO.

He's very flowchart but he also has to work that flowchart around two other big factors: a complete lack of a projectile without the attack range to make up for it and mediocre pressure from the air. Against characters that can control the ground via outstanding projectiles, MK has to approach from the air of platforms which he doesn't get KOs from unless the opponent actually jumps at him when MK's back is to them for a B-Air tumble to D-Tilt reset combo which is about as predictable as King Dedede's B-Air and twice as punishable. MK's aerials are fantastic when juggling or when an opponent's off-stage but his only safe landing options when closing in are cross-up N-Air or empty falling. Even mid-air jump D-Air pressure gets punished hard by fast OoS aerials.

With all that said, MK does have some bad MUs. Diddy and Sonic are easily his hardest MUs with Sheik and Yoshi not far behind. Some might say ZSS is up there, but I don't see it. Diddy with a banana in-hand is impossible for MK to approach and I've spent weeks trying to figure out a safe way in. MK has to get a fast lead and just respect banana until it's gone and pressure him so he can't pull another; constant pressure in neutral isn't exactly MK's strong suit and that's coming from someone that's known for having one of the better MK neutrals in high level play. Even the Brawl mainstay of D-Airing Diddy shield is hard countered by OoS Z-Drop > U/F/B-Air. Shielding banana then rolling back and trying to hopefully punish the banana regrab or whiffed Dash Grab is the best I've got. Trying to grab banana from the air after shield just gets me F-Air'd and MK's item toss OoS is nothing compared to Diddy's frame data anyway. And starting around 90% depending on rage, if I whiff one Dash Attack, Grab, or N-Air, my stock's gone with D-Tilt to Up-Smash. Sonic can just completely disregard MK's neutral game and punish him from half-screen; if MK loses the percent lead or god forbid a stock lead, that MU becomes a turn-based RPG that MK just loses.

Oh and his Up-Air chain into Shuttle Loop has a blind spot directly above MK. Shuttle Loop can't curve to hit directly above MK so if you can DI into the safe zone, MK has to take the time to readjust himself to hit you with Shuttle Loop, which is long enough for Up-Air's hitstun to wear off. And since you'd fall before MK if he whiffs that Shuttle Loop, that's a free punish for you. Yeah, THE thing that MK is top 10 for has a huge flaw. Another flaw is you can DI the Dash Attack away from MK and he can't get Up-Airs off it. Cool character.

And one last thing: shielding at the ledge is hilariously good against MK. Even if you don't shield, his Dash Attack combos don't work at the ledge and even if he can clip you with Up-Airs for improper DI, if you hold away from the stage during the Up-Air chain, he'll kill himself from the Shuttle Loop. The most threatening thing he has at the ledge is a super-tight 10% window for a RAR D-Air > D-Air > mid-air jump B-Air KO which is again a very tight 10% rage-dependent window and only works on certain characters, too light or too heavy and they get out.

I mean MK's super-good and I think I put him as #10 overall on my tier list submission but he has some serious negatives that people don't realize or utilize effectively. I can't put him even above Diddy, let alone Mario or Pika.

 

[Raziek]

-I'm not sure if improved all that much outside of the buff to fair (thought he was good before anyways). Robin already has nice autocancels, so I think it would allow for some more variance in his playstyle. This along with the shield stun/shield hitlag buff makes it so that he's not hard punished because of the nonsensical landing lag of previous patches.

The buffs were actually pretty significant.

The extra 2 frames off Bair and Uair means they're very very safe as falling options. Many characters cannot punish a late bair on shield. Dath and I did some math and came to the conclusion that Falling Bair is only -4 on shield. (Also worth noting that well-spaced and auto-canceled Fair is +1)

The other major one is the Nair hitbox buffs. The increased size on the hitbox means you can reliably cross up a shield and get both hits, not just one. Also a substantial buff on the forward reach of the hitbox.

The D-Smash recovery buff was also great, since D-Smash was already faaaairly hard to punish with a little charge.

F-tilt hitbox buff was minor, but noticeable. Safer and more effective as an option out of a pivot.

 

[Shaya]

The buffs were actually pretty significant.

The extra 2 frames off Bair and Uair means they're very very safe as falling options. Many characters cannot punish a late bair on shield. Dath and I did some math and came to the conclusion that Falling Bair is only -4 on shield. (Also worth noting that well-spaced and auto-canceled Fair is +1)

The other major one is the Nair hitbox buffs. The increased size on the hitbox means you can reliably cross up a shield and get both hits, not just one. Also a substantial buff on the forward reach of the hitbox.

The D-Smash recovery buff was also great, since D-Smash was already faaaairly hard to punish with a little charge.

F-tilt hitbox buff was minor, but noticeable. Safer and more effective as an option out of a pivot.

I'm pretty sure I have all the latest values from the patch. If Robin's hard landing lag is 5 frames instead of 4, all of her ACs are 1 frame worse.

These are without shield drop frames included. So while Late AC fair is +1 on shield drop, I think one of us must have had the numbers wrong for back air.

 

[Thinkaman]

Opinions on Little Mac will vary wildly with rulesets, especially stages.

• Virtually the entire question of Little Mac's viability revolves around timeout resolution.
• Little Mac's affinity for FD is overrated (he hates being juggled), but it's still his best stage and he'd still be tiers better if it were the only legal option.
• Little Mac hates stages like Kongo Jungle, Dunk Hunt, Dream Land, and Smashville. For every one of these that is legal + every stage selection rule that makes picking them easier, he is a significantly worse character.
• Little Mac benefits from many walk-off stages, which are not commonly used.
• Little Mac doesn't care much about transforming stages and Battlefield. (BF isn't his favorite, but he can fight back agaisnt camp on static platforms.)
• Little Mac benefits a lot from custom moves, to the surprise of most people. Side B 2 helps shut down platform camping--nothing else matters.
• Little Mac benefits from items, since they reward stage control and penalize camping.

This post isn't meant to advocate any particular policy, just point out legitimate causes for differences of opinion regarding Little Mac.

Under mainstream 1v1 competitive rules, Little Mac fights stages and timeout rules more than he fights characters. All characters have stage preferences, but none half as big as Mac.

 

[Alphicans]

Yes Little Mac is VERY particular about stages, but under the current ruleset it's not too bad. I assume the common ruleset is like this:

Starters: FD BF SV TC DL
CPs: Lylat Duckhunt (sometimes delfino, halberd, siege??)

With the common 7 stages, game 1 will start BF or town and city (Dreamland the starter). If Lylat is the starter instead of dreamland (more uncommon, but I advocate this list over DL for more than mac bias ), then it starts on either Lylat or TC. In both situations he has access to some of his best stages (in the lylat situation it's much better though). Unfortunately, yes, Mac must switch off if he wins a game since stage wise he can't ban all unwinnable stages (SV, Dreamland and Duckhunt). Game3, if the character switch doesn't work out, mac has access to one of his best stages (even better when the more janky stages are legal). As a solomain it's tough, because either you risk giving them a free win or you need a secondary, and the situation gets much worse if you lose game 1.

However 2 of the 3 games are very winnable, and are often his best stages.

 

[Thinkaman]

Seagull Joe @Trela #HBC | Red Ryu Unless I'm blind, you guys forgot WFT.

@Zigsta you doubled rank 15. If you just bump everything down and take away the gap towards the bottom, it works out though.

 

[Thinkaman]

I tabulated all the current votes to determine what we need to discuss.

The highest standard deviations in votes are, by rank:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 

, , and seem to be an issue of just people not being up to speed with how serious their buffs are, in many cases due to getting these initial votes down early. (The same people who underrated one usually underrated the other 2.)

These three characters have been showing serious results in the last month. I would urge @NickRiddle, M@v , @Liberation, @Marc, @Zan, @John12346, and @vyQ to take a look at these 3 characters, since your current votes on them form a pattern of statistical variance.

and we all just seem to disagree on. Should we talk about that...?

has a problem we've long seen in competitive discussion: He is always unfairly compared to Mario. It's hard having a similar but clearly superior top tier character; it's very psychologically difficult to set that aside and compare Doc to other low or mid tiers directly.

At the end of the day, Doc's frame data is equal to Mario's, tied for best-in-the-game. His damage/knockback relative to attack startup is simply the best in the game, and he has arguably the best OoS game across the cast. He also has key d-throw fair kill combos that let him shine in matchups with characters like Pikachu, as ESAM showed us. To top it off, he has a great projectile and arguably the safest reflector in the game in SH side-b, which perfectly matches his SH height.

Of course, Doc's recovery is poop and his air speed creates some issues. He's clearly worse than Mario, but we have to put that aside and compare him to the other 54 characters too.

Doc has a representation problem, since anyone who would play him should be seriously tempted to play Mario instead. Furthermore, the few players so extreme as to prefer Doc's playstyle are likely to go a step farther and play Ganondorf or some other heavy. This means that player base and results will never fairly reflect Doc's position in the roster.

Doc is clearly not as good as Mario, but a serious and fair look at the character and his results makes it sort of obvious that he's not bottom 10 material.






Now individual questions, based on the stats. These are the characters that people positioned in statistically unusual ways, after adjusting the data to normalize the different ranges uses.

For example, my two outliers were negative views on and . I regarded both as promising characters whose supposed abilities never manifested into results, but seems they had more results than I was aware. I'm looking into their successes + match footage that earned it to reconsider my abnormal views.


Please review your placements, and discuss them if you desire to stand by your unique view and haven't already:


@NickRiddle:
M@v :
Alphicans :
Gunla :
@Marc:
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive:
@Zan:
@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster:
@Meru.:
san. :
@Xiivi:
Myran :
@Amazing Ampharos:
@John12346:
@vyQ:
@Trela:
#HBC | Red Ryu :
Spinosaurus :
Shaya :
Katakiri :
CHOMPY :
@Zigsta:
Dabuz :
@Mister Eric:
@NAKAT:
Seagull Joe :


Trivia:
Most optimistic current vote list: @AeroLink_the_SoulMaster
Most pessimistic current vote list: Dabuz
Lowest standard deviation in current vote list relative to consensus: @Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Now let's get to it!

 

[Myran]

Just to be sure, but you would like me to explain my reasoning for my placement of the characters you listed correct?

 

[Thinkaman]

Right; those are the placings people made that, after normalizing the values for that person's given range, were statistical outliers.

 

[Myran]

When explaining my stance on these characters I may miss a crucial part of their toolkit. I'm not super familiar with all of them so feel free to correct me.

Alright so I'll start with my main man.
I do know that he isn't represented the best at large national tournaments so I'm sure that only hurts his placings. However I do feel it's also because there is the idea that because Pikmin are projectiles and lose to all standard attacks that he's at a distinct disadvantage. I put him higher than most by going off the notion that the ideal Olimar will be able to maintain a strong wall of defensive with a non purple centric lineup, and be able to switch to a more aggressive style once 2 purples are in the line. He can apply safe shield pressure with 2 purples by adding side-b into the mix with well spaced back airs and smashes. On top of that at around 60-80ish on most character it is possible to do dthrow rar bair which can kill near the ledge. This kill option is added to his nair setups which depend on how the move lands allowing for different smash follow ups. He doesn't have a lot of kill setups, but I feel with 2 purples in his line he's able to force the opponent to play his game until he lands a kill move. Lastly being able to really abuse Pikmin is important. Making your opponent attack Pikmin to put them into extra lag is something more Olimars should intentionally be doing as it gives more opportunities to punish. I think he'll be more recognized as a better character as time goes on, and more Olimar players really start to abuse his specific techniques and quirks.

Cloud to me seems like a solid character, but one who will diminish in success as time goes on. He has some very good moves such as his uair and nair, but I feel either a heavy rushdown character or a strong defensive one can really give him trouble. His recovery is easy to exploit when he doesn't have limit, and from my experience can be edge guarded pretty frequently once you really understand how to get around it's hitboxes. As for limit it is very good, but as long as you're making him play your game and controlling the pace of the match I feel he should be forced to use it on recovering a majority of the time. I wanna contribute a lot of his current success to unfamiliarity, because even as we speak people are finding more efficient ways to play him.

I may have put him a little to low, but he seems like a character that lacks in a lot of areas. He has few moves that kill and it seems like he gets shut down by someone who can run in and power shield his projectiles. He does have can which can combo break and kill, but as long as his opponent knows that he's looking to can a combo they can bait it out or just play safe guaranteed combos to wrack up damage. Seems like he relies more off of the opponent playing sloppy than anything.

For Brawler I'm just going by the 1111 medium set. It seems pretty not to bad and has some combos, however his recovery isn't very strong. Still has some decent frame data and kill moves, but I feel his overall speed/weight with bad recovery make him unable to keep up with a lot of the higher tiers.

Most of my swordsman experience comes from playing the character/some games with Trela at CEO. He doesn't seem as bad as most people make him out to be. His recovery definitely isn't the greatest, but his aerials are pretty good. I feel he can space quite well in neutral with nair and uair has decent kill power. I believe killing and recovery are his two biggest issues holding him back. His toolkit seems decent overall and feels better than sword characters like Lucina or Marth.

I know my explanation probably weren't the greatest for all character aside from Olimar so lemme know if you need any more explanation and I'll try my best.

 

[Gunla]

I don't think everyone will actually get an alert from those tags.

Anyways, made some minor adjustments to characters.

/ - Made this before I've seen his results as of late, will update.

- I actually would say I have him placed much higher than other people do. In fact, I think there's only 4 other lists that have him at 14, and 2 other lists that have him higher? Is my vote too high or low from variance?

 

[Shaya]

In hindsight I think I went too high for Zard and perhaps too low for G&W. Despite G&W having some results and being a structurally sound character, his issues are very very daunting. Having used him sporadically since release (a lot earlier on) I just believe he's too difficult to win with to be that much better.

Doc is someone I feel is a very solid character and I've been pro-advocate for most of the game's history, hence my probably higher than average placement.

I think Shulk is still a relatively bad character, surprised I was off-kilter. Most lists I glanced through either had him towards the lower end of the cast or the person previously mained them before dropping them and never being seen again. The recent buffs pushed him away from being bottom 3 in my eyes. But I'm not sure how much he's improved.

I warned I could be overrating Lucario, and whilst I have more shame than I did before to guestimate, patches are crazy things.
Wii Fit Trainer - I may just have the best Wii Fit in the world (I'm not the type to make such claims freely) nearby to give me reasoning to feel he's feasibly at Pac's level, who's been doing better over recent times too (gradually doing better and better).

I made some minor adjustments to align a bit more with my perception of results/thoughts here.

 

[Raziek]

Shaya : Check Dath's math in this post.
Thinkaman : Added my votes, if you want to update accordingly and address any outliers.

Working on a post summarizing what I feel Robin's place in the meta is.

 

[Shaya]

(15/2.6)+5 * 1.5 = 16 frames of hitlag for opponent, 10 frames for Robin or
6 frame advantage for Robin

Unless I'm missing something important (ya never know when you're not around for a while), this is not the case / how things are meant to work.
Robin will be stuck in hit lag for 16 frames just like the opponent should be.

Meaning all your Levin data is way off.
Fortunately mine was slightly off as well (all ACs are 1 frame worse; thanks to Foxy for the heads up~)

 

[Raziek]

Unless I'm missing something important (ya never know when you're not around), this is not the case / how things are meant to work.
Robin will be stuck in hit lag for 16 frames just like the opponent should be.

Meaning all your Levin data is way off.
Fortunately mine was slightly off as well (all ACs are 1 frame worse).

You'd have to talk to Dath? I looked over what he did, and I didn't (and still don't) see where there'd be an issue. Do we have a cross-reference on Pikachu's frame advantage to work with?

I can't see it being far off from what our numbers are from what I have experienced from play, it matches too well with what I have/haven't been punished by. But if you can prove otherwise, please do.