4BR Official Tier List Discussion

[Gunla]

If it assists any of you at all, you can utilize this website to make your tier list, though it has 7 tiers, so use it as more of a guideline for list construction. Be warned, however, as it lacks Cloud at the time of this writing, so if you convert it over in some way, shape or form, be sure to add him.

Personal opinion on Miis aside, I do ask that in the future we have more of a referendum on deciding how this is done. I'm likely one the most extreme members of the 4BR when it comes to Miis, but I do understand why the decision has been made to place them at 1111 for this list.

In remarks to the system, I do think it's a good idea. It takes a familiar concept and makes it more manageable. The larger amounts of tiers will allow us to more properly display our opinion on certain characters other than "vaguely have a 15-character tier where everyone is "equal", but not really". I'll probably make a future post with a list; just wanted to say a few things about this beforehand.

Also, Bardock is totally underrated. He's Top 15 imo.

 

[Marc]

Yeah, we originally intended to include the app, but it missing Cloud could throw people off. It does help as a visual check for everyone else. I wish you could choose the amount of tiers. :/

With Miis we wanted to go with the option most people have experience with. I'm sure we'll discuss the subject at some point, but the only real alternative for this iteration of the tier list would be rating them both as 1111s and as "anything goes" movesets (perhaps even sizes?). The latter would be a theoretical construct for the majority, I imagine, and it would get confusing quickly.

 

[M@v]

This is a good way to do it for now, especially with the recent buffs to characters plus cloud (*cough* Kirby and Robin buffs *cough*). Also, are we assuming the first tier list will not include Corrin or Bayonetta, and they will be included from v2 onward then?

 

[Marc]

Yeah, this should be done within a month or so. I don't think the last two DLC characters are expected to hit until at least February. The first tier list is mostly to wrap up 2015, now that there's finally some breathing room.

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't mean to be a negative nancy, but we are being asked to construct a tier list for a patch (including a new character) that is less than a week old in less than 2 weeks--a window which spans the holidays and does not feature a single major tournament for said new patch?

While any 4BR tier list will probably be significantly more accurate than anything else out there regardless of conditions, and while I can appreciate a better-late-than-never and it's-about-time go-getter mentality, it does seem more than a bit asinine for everything except the unchanged top tiers.

I'm not sure that we can justifiably defend a predominantly theorycraft list as worthy of the Back Room legitimacy.

 

[Gunla]

In reality, I don't think we'll have much of an issue with being after a patch like this.

Cloud is very recent and for the time being he appears to be an "upper mid-tier" with a few draws and noticeable flaws. He doesn't shake up the entire meta that much; in fact, I'd wager it's very little. There are a handful of improvements to characters but it's for lesser seen characters like Lucas, Pittoo, Shulk and Dorf. The real standout is Bowser, but I don't really see or feel like he's Top 20 now. He's still combo food, he lacks a projectile outside of his custom 2, and that kill throw sure is nice, but he still has major flaws that the top tiers can exploit very easily.

I don't mean to be a negative nancy, but we are being asked to construct a tier list for a patch (including a new character) that is less than a week old in less than 2 weeks--a window which spans the holidays and does not feature a single major tournament for said new patch?

While any 4BR tier list will probably be significantly more accurate than anything else out there regardless of conditions, and while I can appreciate a better-late-than-never and it's-about-time go-getter mentality, it does seem more than a bit asinine for everything except the unchanged top tiers.

I'm not sure that we can justifiably defend a predominantly theorycraft list as worthy of the Back Room legitimacy.

There may not be major events like Genesis, but there are still plenty of events that are running the new patch that are noteworthy. That being said, however, keeping the fact that the Holiday season prevents a lot of tournaments from happening, delaying the deadline may be an option.

Here's some Early January Tournaments/Post-Patch Tournaments:
Dismantle 2 runs on January 2nd (161 attendees including multiple big names like Dabuz, JJROCKETS, ***** (TLink), DKwill, and Chompy), 2GGT on Januqry 9th (can't remember the attendee numbers but ESAM, Larry Lurr and Slayerz are confirmed), Pre-KVO, etc.

Pre-Patch Tournaments that are Notable from late Nov-Dec:
KTAR XV ran on December 5th (including Nairo, Dabuz, DKWill, False, Angel Cortes, etc), Umebura had the Niconico Western Qualifiers (with power players like Ranai, Earth, Choco, Komorikiri, and Abadango), SXC, NEC, etc.

While there's been a lack of a major tournament for the past month or so and we're in a technical offseason until Genesis, there have been lots of regional tournaments with a handful of major power players present.

 

[Thinkaman]

Or, phrased differently, are we really going to pretend that Miis are a "theoretical construct" that eludes mortal reckoning, but be a-ok with tiering Cloud? I've never even played Cloud against an experienced human opponent, much less a spread of matchups that would be representative of his performance.

I'm not meaning to sound obtuse, but there's an unshakeable absurdity to it all.

 

[Marc]

The deadline can be extended if necessary, but I trust that a group of millennials can find some time over the course of 2 weeks to give their input on a game they've been playing all year. This project was a long time coming, so I don't want to assume people aren't capable of it this early into things and risk the vote dragging on for months. If enough people feel it should be done, we can extend to include Genesis 3 though. That would have the drawback of many people basing their opinion on the most recent major event, which at the end of the day is just one event (consider how ZSS was rated just after Salem won APEX in Brawl).

So far we have delayed putting out a tier list due to various patches, DLC etc. and have finally found an offseason. Opinions on Cloud are likely going to be the most shaky out of all of them and if the standard deviations are too extreme we could always opt not to include him. This approach seems preferable to going another 6 months without a tier list, as we're going to have the same issue with the next two characters. I think it's bad that we don't have any consensus or archive on the state of the metagame under the various patches up till now. In short, if everyone conscientiously tries to rank Cloud it will either turn out many people agree or he's all over the place, in which case we can either not include him or have that vote be an appendix.

Other than Cloud I don't think the last patch is drastic enough to make or break anyone's ability to rank the cast if they spend time with the game and catch up on changes. The size of the cast is already large enough where it's going to take years to fully develop all of them, that's just how it is and doesn't mean we can't have a collective opinion on the current state of affairs. A room like this is meant to educate yourself and each other, you are free to ask why people come up with the things they do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hmm will take a bit longer with mine since I like to expand my thoughts out more with my lists, explanations and the like.

 

[Raziek]

Placeholder post for now until I actually make my list.

@Neo Zero Gunla TheReflexWonder : Can someone open up the discussion thread to keep things separate between discussion/voting?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is a separate thread for potential discussion on characters to be considered for the Tier List Voting thread, so as not to make weird gaps between discussion and voting. Please use the aforementioned thread to post your ranks.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Done. Start talking here. Feel free to move any discussion posts you made in this thread to the next thread.

 

[M@v]

NickRiddle
Why do you have Dark Pit and Pit separated, and with Dark Pit being in the higher tier? They are only different in 3 of their moves, and one is a direct upgrade for Pit (his ftilt kills like 10% earlier). You believe Dark Pits' side and neutral b are that much more useful to him I'm guessing?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm -really- excited about Mewtwo in the new patch. He is undoubtedly the big winner there, getting multiple hitbox size increases, higher damage/knockback, significant aerial landing lag reductions, a bigger projectile he can now reasonably use in the air, walk/run speed increase from #21 to ~#10...I feel this character went from an afterthought to an actually-scary, tournament-viable threat.

Changes to aerials push his punish game a great distance. At any percent, hitting with N-Air and landing before the final hit gives you at least +6 frame advantage (ignoring increased numbers from potential Rage and frame syncing), meaning that N-Air -> D-Tilt is a true combo that can loop into itself as long as you have space to do it and the opponent isn't at especially high percents. It's also a confirm into Grab at all percents, and with decent Rage numbers, you can combo that into U-Tilt -> U-Smash at KO percents; all of these options are generally easier/better on fastfallers. The hits also last for 34 frames altogether with only five frames of endlag, making it a reliable way to punish airdodges in many situations. Two-frame gaps between the hits make it so you get hit if you drop shield early or try to buffer an option before he lands.

F-Air got faster and has four fewer frames of landing lag. Shorthop airdodge -> fastfall F-Air is -6 on shield/+1 on shield drop, having great synergy with D-Tilt and empty landing grab. Hitting with it at low-mid percents in that scenario will generally get you another follow-up, usually another aerial (F-Air strings are not uncommon, and it sets up for N-Air loops at low percents).

U-Air got significant BKB and now works a lot like Falco's, comboing into itself and other aerials when moving upward with it, as well as making it a reasonably KO option. Reduced landing lag makes it safe on shield when crossing people up.

 

[Raziek]

Results-related question:

Are there Greninjas putting up serious results anywhere? I know he's a reasonably solid character (we have one in my region), but I can't say I'm aware of results that would justify putting him around the likes of ROB, Peach, Wario, etc.

He seems like, upper-mid at best to me, not high tier.

 

[Gunla]

Results-related question:

Are there Greninjas putting up serious results anywhere? I know he's a reasonably solid character (we have one in my region), but I can't say I'm aware of results that would justify putting him around the likes of ROB, Peach, Wario, etc.

He seems like, upper-mid at best to me, not high tier.

Greninja thrives strong in South America and Europe (Brazil and Netherlands in particular). iStudying and Fullmoon are some of the best Greninjas in the world; they place very high and do well against top players in their area and have strong results in majors. These two don't really travel much from what I know.

On the US side, the best one is probably a tossup between Venia, NinjaLink or Techei, though I'd have to say it'd be Venia right now. As of late, I believe he was invited to iQHQ for beating Vinnie and performing very strongly in a few tournaments. As of late he made Top 3 at Nebs 20, taking games off of John Numbers. Megafox has also picked up Greninja on occasion, using him as a secondary, with good results.

Japan's Greninjas seem to struggle a bit more; their playstyles really are more exploitable, hence JP Greninjas like Shiki, aMSa, Lea and Some aren't doing as well as in previous patches/tournaments.

 

[Alphicans]

As I would have expected, everything past the ~15th place mark is getting EXTREMELY varied... Have we considered doing a top/high tier only list? I know that's not ideal, but the deviation on lots of characters is huuuuuge.

 

[Shaya]

Incremental/iterative tier list (or any thing, blast you engineering) creation has always been my jam.

I'm not sure how deep down the rabbit hole this project is atm, but if our group wouldn't mind my convoluted methods and a bit of back tracking I could take the reins (as in, using the viability 'survey' thing).

 

[Xiivi]

As I would have expected, everything past the ~15th place mark is getting EXTREMELY varied... Have we considered doing a top/high tier only list? I know that's not ideal, but the deviation on lots of characters is huuuuuge.

This was the same for the first tier list for Brawl as well. It's the nature of the beast; in fact looking through the votes so far I'd say it's better. We've had the game for over a year; a first tier list isn't meant to be "perfect" but instead showing where we are now. Even the most recent voting on the Melee Tier List had people putting characters 4 or so spots apart from their fellow voters and that game has 26 characters and is well over a decade old. Averages do help smooth things out once we have more votes; and deviations are noted as well showing what is disagreed upon.

Incremental/iterative tier list (or any thing, blast you engineering) creation has always been my jam.

I'm not sure how deep down the rabbit hole this project is atm, but if our group wouldn't mind my convoluted methods and a bit of back tracking I could take the reins (as in, using the viability 'survey' thing).

At this point it's time for a tier list not another viability one.

 

[Shaya]

At this point it's time for a tier list not another viability one.

I should've given more information but using previous ones as a way to structure/constrain voting 'segments'.

But honestly having such variance is not really a bad thing. It all has to start somewhere.

 

[NickRiddle]

NickRiddle
Why do you have Dark Pit and Pit separated, and with Dark Pit being in the higher tier? They are only different in 3 of their moves, and one is a direct upgrade for Pit (his ftilt kills like 10% earlier). You believe Dark Pits' side and neutral b are that much more useful to him I'm guessing?

His side-b is the only reason I think he's higher... not only does it give Pits help in killing, a problem area for them IMO, but it also helps them body Luma... that's pretty important in the current meta IMO.

 

[Camalange]

All of the top Greninjas are literally at my local, lol.

 

[Thinkaman]

The top 2 players in Sweden both main Greninja (well, before M overtook them), and I was pretty impressed. Playing against a good Greninja changed my outlook on the character significantly more than just watching them on Youtube. His play is distinctive, feels like he always has enough options, and seems like it has room for continued growth.

Alias was actually able to consistently beat every character I can play except Ganon, of all people. Whether or not I'd call Greninja "lower-high" or "upper-mid" really just depends on the definitions of those terms, and my feelings on adjacent characters. As it stands, if a Greninja won a regional, I'd be far more surprised for the player than the character.


Dark Pit's new buffed side-b (ground only) is bonkers. Just go mess around with it; see how early it kills near the edge of the stage with rage. This simply matters more than inferior arrows and a slightly weaker f-tilt. Dark Pit is nontrivially better in most (but not all) matchups now.


Mewtwo seems preeeetty legit. It's amazing what 1 frame on fair can do.

We also need to talk about Bowser. He's suddenly getting pretty solid results, more than say DK. I buy that his performance will suffer as people learn to respect his grab threat more, but I don't see his new-found viability truly going way.

Finally, there's Cloud. I'd be comfortable saying we're not going to place him in the initial tier list. But if we must, the boy is pulling results; results that are too strong to dismiss as "well, people just don't know the matchup yet." No one has mastered Cloud yet, either. Top 15? Seems very likely with the data we have.

 

[Shaya]

Japan still seems to prioritize Pit first, and may continue to do so. The extremely difficult to quantify range of options Pit's arrows have and the sheer brute-force of KO power buffs are still not really equatable. They may have overbuffed the KO power of side-b, but as it is an extremely laggy and pretty slow start up move I'm skeptical it could invalidate versatility.

Dark Pit has been the fan favourite in Western audiences this entire time, but neither of the two characters see real success in the West. Little rations of balance buffs to DP have probably been sub 1% impacts on usage, win rates and whatnot compared to regular Pit; and I wouldn't be surprised if they considered the gap between them larger than 1%.

Cloud is stupid and makes at least 3 other characters seem worthless (Marth, Lucina, Shulk). Yeah he's probably top 15, but Sakurai has made him incredibly simple.

The question is how many characters will people feel confident to argue are better than him when we reach those lovely Wario, Ness, Falcon, Villager,Yoshi,etc-filled grey areas?
Perhaps we should be trying to look at who we actually thinks he loses to and guestimate from there.
"Do you have something which outpaces Clouds range and frame data + do you have ways to out attrition him?"
Maybe Sheik, Fox, Sonic, Pika, Diddy. Maybe some fatties with silly grab combos. Maybe some shorties.

Currently feel everyone else is up **** creek.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@Amazing Ampharos I'm very interested in your reasons for putting Link above MK and friends, tournament results obviously aside for now as your post indicates. You mention the emphasis placed on range, and I assume this had something to do with it, but a more detailed explanation would be very appreciated.

 

[Myran]

I'm just gonna ask now. Pretty much all of you have put Olimar lower than I did, but it's not really surprising. I'm wondering what you think the things that hold him back are?

 

[M@v]

Finally, there's Cloud. I'd be comfortable saying we're not going to place him in the initial tier list. But if we must, the boy is pulling results; results that are too strong to dismiss as "well, people just don't know the matchup yet." No one has mastered Cloud yet, either. Top 15? Seems very likely with the data we have.

Cloud has a blatant weakness in his recovery that a majority of the top tiers don't have. Most of your top tiers (top 10 or so) have weaknesses, but none that stick out so much like Cloud's recovery. Once people learn to gimp him things will get harder for him. That being said, I think he's going to wind up settling in high tier somewhere, being plenty viable overall.

As for olimar, I feel his pikmin can hold him back at times (WHY CAN YOU REFLECT HIS SMASH ATTACKS SAKURAI PLS). That being said, I definitely don't think he's bad. In fact, I think everyone from tier 14 to 11 on my list is within striking distance of each other (which is why I didn't put any spaces inbetween). That whole clump of characters is pretty good. I just feel Olimar has slightly more weaknesses than the people in tiers 11 and 12 (slower frame data, pikmin smashes being reflectable, good recovery but can be punished while doing it, etc.) Pikmin coming out in a set order now is a HUGE buff though imo. Lets the Olimar player accurately plan ahead.

 

[Myran]

Cloud has a blatant weakness in his recovery that a majority of the top tiers don't have. Most of your top tiers (top 10 or so) have weaknesses, but none that stick out so much like Cloud's recovery. Once people learn to gimp him things will get harder for him. That being said, I think he's going to wind up settling in high tier somewhere, being plenty viable overall.

As for olimar, I feel his pikmin can hold him back at time (WHY CAN YOU REFLECT HIS SMASH ATTACKS SAKURAI PLS). That being said, I definitely don't think he's bad. In fact, I think everyone from tier 14 to 11 on my list is within striking distance of each other (which is why I didn't put any spaces inbetween). That whole clump of character is pretty good. I just feel olimar has slightly more weaknesses than the people in tiers 11 and 12 (slower frame data, pikmen smashes being reflectable, good recovery but can be punishes while doing it, etc.) Pikman coming out in a set order now is a HUGE buff though imo. Lets the olimar player accurately plan ahead.

Yeah I definitely agree that smashes being relfectable is bad, but you just change up your overall playstyle. More grab heavy with side-b and aerials as filler. Purple retreating back air is safe on shield so you can still apply pressure, and most reflectors can be punished including Mario's cape. Even after all that you can still use smashes, just not really for hard reads or standard spacing as you normally would. I will admit his startup frames aren't the greatest as well, but many of his moves don't have much lag.

Plus since many of Olimar's kill options/setups are dependent on which Pikmin he has it's a bit harder to know which option he'll go for. Even with a blue in front my smashes and aerials can still kill, but you have to respect the grab.

 

[san.]

I'm no Olimar expert, but I can try to weigh in a few of my thoughts.

Good:

• Short Height
• Good grab and excellent pivot grab
  
• Great Smashes
• Fair amount of kill power and combos
• Strategical play from Pikmin can help generate a lot of damage
• Disruption from Pikmin in General
• Generally quick aerials

Meh:

• Autocancels are good, but FAF on aerials are generally not so great
• Random attacks are somewhat sluggish
• Recovery is average. It has nice height and mixup potential with aerials, but it's quite a bit of effort to shrug off a foe who may catch on to you.

Bad:

• Low weight is a problem when combined with bottom 15 ground and air speed
• Poor options against close quarters pressure.
  
• Jab is frame 4 on a small character, grabs can get jabbed.
  
• Aerials can get beaten out by other attacks when they clank with the pikmin.

I feel that Olimar is generally a very strong character, but he can occasionally struggle once a strong offensive can be mounted from some of the other higher-represented characters. This continues for (close quarters) ground game, air game, and recovery, and doesn't stack well with his low weight and sluggish movement.

Olimar still has potent tools to prevent getting stuck in close quarters combat, but some characters are just too fast or disjointed, and many attacks on shield are now in the -2 to +3 range, so punishes may not be guaranteed. Olimar also has trouble covering some diagonal angles below him well.

I also feel that if Olimar is a prevalent character, knowledge of Pikmin rotation, etc. can help counteract Olimar's own metagame progression. I feel that Olimar may struggle with overcoming his weaknesses just a bit more than some other characters and may experience more troublesome MUs or scenarios (though not as bad as many other characters IMO).

I may also be completely wrong. It'd be nice to know your thoughts.

 

[Myran]

I'm no Olimar expert, but I can try to weigh in a few of my thoughts.

Good:

• Short Height
• Good grab and excellent pivot grab
  
• Great Smashes
• Fair amount of kill power and combos
• Strategical play from Pikmin can help generate a lot of damage
• Disruption from Pikmin in General
• Generally quick aerials

Meh:

• Autocancels are good, but FAF on aerials are generally not so great
• Random attacks are somewhat sluggish
• Recovery is average. It has nice height and mixup potential with aerials, but it's quite a bit of effort to shrug off a foe who may catch on to you.

Bad:

• Low weight is a problem when combined with bottom 15 ground and air speed
• Poor options against close quarters pressure.
  
• Jab is frame 4 on a small character, grabs can get jabbed.
  
• Aerials can get beaten out by other attacks when they clank with the pikmin.

I feel that Olimar is generally a very strong character, but he can occasionally struggle once a strong offensive can be mounted from some of the other higher-represented characters. This continues for (close quarters) ground game, air game, and recovery, and doesn't stack well with his low weight and sluggish movement.

Olimar still has potent tools to prevent getting stuck in close quarters combat, but some characters are just too fast or disjointed, and many attacks on shield are now in the -2 to +3 range, so punishes may not be guaranteed. Olimar also has trouble covering some diagonal angles below him well.

I also feel that if Olimar is a prevalent character, knowledge of Pikmin rotation, etc. can help counteract Olimar's own metagame progression. I feel that Olimar may struggle with overcoming his weaknesses just a bit more than some other characters and may experience more troublesome MUs or scenarios (though not as bad as many other characters IMO).

I may also be completely wrong. It'd be nice to know your thoughts.

I do agree with you on some of these things. Your bullet points were accurate for the most part, but I'd also add that with his weight and size he falls out of combos/strings a bit easier than other characters, at least from my experience. As for his CQC it definitely isn't the best, but he's not as bad as Brawl. His jab is on the slower end against top tiers, but even then a few power shields and he can still punish. Also his dtilt is an amazing move close up, because it leads to many follow ups, and can cross up the opponent depending on spacing. As for his moves being beat out yeah that's there for aerials/smashes/side-b, but at the same time he can lag his opponent. If the opponent hits a desynced Pikmin (Pretty much any that aren't in your line) it can lag their attack giving you time to punish or sometimes just outlasting the hitbox of their attack. I'm not sure what you mean by random attacks being sluggish though. Imo he's top 15 at least, it's hard to do and I'm slowly becoming a better overall competitor, but as time progress people will see he has some of the nastiest shield pressure and keep away in the game when purples are used right. I'm getting better at breaking shields since his purple retreating bair is safe on shield, and if spaced properly both hits of dsmash can hit an opponent. Two purples for that breaks shield quite easily.

 

[Marc]

We are discussing a voting extension past Genesis 3. For now, still try to vote as soon as you can.

@istudying has done very well with Greninja here since launch, being considered #2 after Mr-R. We have one of the stronger scenes in Europe and I just can't imagine Greninja not being in the upper echelons when I see him and other players globally do well with the character. He has tons of setups, actual gimping potential with his upB and great mobility. I do feel like he's kinda weak up close (slow jab) and gets outcamped by a character like Sheik, but the latter weakness goes for like everyone.

 

[Myran]

We are discussing a voting extension past Genesis 3. For now, still try to vote as soon as you can.

@istudying has done very well with Greninja here since launch, being considered #2 after Mr-R. We have one of the stronger scenes in Europe and I just can't imagine Greninja not being in the upper echelons when I see him and other players globally do well with the character. He has tons of setups, actual gimping potential with his upB and great mobility. I do feel like he's kinda weak up close (slow jab) and gets outcamped by a character like Sheik, but the latter weakness goes for like everyone.

I'm torn on Greninja, my best friend plays him and I dabble as well. I've seen some cool things, but I feel to really bring his potential out you can't really make any tech flubs. I'd also say he relies heavily off of a patient bait playstyle or punishing his opponents habits.

 

[vyQ]

So is this going to end today??
Or do we all get some more time to work on this?
(Btw I think sending the tierlists private would have been a little bit better.. no influence etc.. just for the future maybe )

 

[Shaya]

Voting is definitely being extended.
I believe until after Genesis.

 

[CHOMPY]

I noticed a lot of people are putting Mii Brawler towards the bottom. Now I understand that it's not being used much, due to a lot of tournaments banning Miis, but if players took the time to learn the character, it can be a serious threat.

Same thing with Ryu. If Ryu came out at the beginning of time, more players would be using Ryu over characters like Sheik, Mario, etc.. Therefore, Ryu could have potentially be #1 on the tier list.


Out of curiosity, what would you guys say holds Mii Brawler back from reaching high tier?

 

[Shaya]

1111, standard size.
Banned in several places too.

 

[Marc]

Voting is extended till just after Genesis 3 and we are trying to contact people who haven't voted yet. If you know of any, feel free to prod them.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Personally I don't see the merit of a tier list right this second since as thinkaman said above it's just not possible for it to be accurate and it may generate crazy debate. Like... I just had a conversation with 4 other top players and none of us can even come up with the 'worst character' in the game, and even top tiers who are all solidified we can't even place them 100% on a certain spot. Like, is Mario better than Diddy? Or not? Is Sonic overrated or not? Is Ryu ridiculous? Is Cloud relevant or not? Is Villager top tier? Is Yoshi overrated? There's too many questions which often don't even have an answer.

I'll refrain from voting on this one. It's just too fuzzy even if grouped. And like... if you group chars, then the point is very little. yeah, Mario is top tier, but is he 3rd or 10th? that's a huge difference too but still 'top tier' you know? etc.

Game changes too much to make assumptions right now but I see what you're trying to do.

However I find it amusing that almost (or everyone?) everybody here puts Sheik/ZSS as 1st/2nd, it's like the one thing everyone can agree on except few.

If you wanna get even more crazy there's even a case for ZSS being 1st in the game depending on what outlook you have in the game though that's too debatable.

ANYWAY! lol

 

[Marc]

With this voting system you can choose to not make the call between small groups of characters if you're undecided, while still having a lot of room to differentiate. Of course, you are free to not vote and I'm glad you at least give reasoning for it.

If you wanna get even more crazy there's even a case for ZSS being 1st in the game depending on what outlook you have in the game though that's too debatable.

Regarding ZSS, there's been some discussion lately how good she is if everyone DIs her setups and kill moves better. Do you feel that can hurt her in a significant way or are you one of the people who could actually see her as the best?

 

[M@v]

Personally I don't see the merit of a tier list right this second since as thinkaman said above it's just not possible for it to be accurate and it may generate crazy debate. Like... I just had a conversation with 4 other top players and none of us can even come up with the 'worst character' in the game, and even top tiers who are all solidified we can't even place them 100% on a certain spot. Like, is Mario better than Diddy? Or not? Is Sonic overrated or not? Is Ryu ridiculous? Is Cloud relevant or not? Is Villager top tier? Is Yoshi overrated? There's too many questions which often don't even have an answer.

I'll refrain from voting on this one. It's just too fuzzy even if grouped. And like... if you group chars, then the point is very little. yeah, Mario is top tier, but is he 3rd or 10th? that's a huge difference too but still 'top tier' you know? etc.

Game changes too much to make assumptions right now but I see what you're trying to do.

However I find it amusing that almost (or everyone?) everybody here puts Sheik/ZSS as 1st/2nd, it's like the one thing everyone can agree on except few.

If you wanna get even more crazy there's even a case for ZSS being 1st in the game depending on what outlook you have in the game though that's too debatable.

ANYWAY! lol

The first brawl tier list was far from accurate in terms of where things ended up as well. That being said, it was good baseline for the next version to see where the major changes needed to be made. I'm not expecting this one to be 100% accurate. In fact I think the only thing everyone can agree on for the most part is who the approximate top 15 characters are, and even then, a lot of us (myself included) think there are many more viable characters after that.