3.5 Update speculation thread: Please ground your expectations to contain HYPE

[victinivcreate1]

Bro, Falco is free af against meta knight. All you have to do is land a grab (Which is easy as hell for meta knight) and then back throw.

Lol. Works on scrubs. Decent Falcos don't fall for this.

Falco destroys MK on big stages, MK destroys Falco on small. And I am more than happy to quote stuff from the MK MU boards if I need to. If anything MK has a much easier time vs Fox than Falco because Fox's combo game is a lot worse than Falco's, who can potentially 0-death MK if he has any degree of tech skill. Also lasers bog down MK. He basically has to jump and hope to land behind Falco, which Falco can just run off and then continue shooting.

I have both online and offline experience in this matchup. Falco and MK are very close. I just think Falco wins because his neutral game is a lot less risky.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I don't think c stick should be more than what it is. else we'll be getting into the territory of 'why cant one of our jump buttons be SH' and 'why cant our spare shield button wavedash'

Probably not really worth the effort since I doubt many would use it, but I actually do think Jump/Shield should take advantage of the C-stick's abilities if mapped there. Pressing down for auto-short hop and up for auto-full jump would make sense if someone changes C-stick to Jump, as would airdodging in the direction pressed if C-stick is Shield.

 

[leekslap]

here's my tweaks for Mario

- Less priority and/or smaller hitbox on up special. It's so hard to beat his up special and when I just try to punish it, it hits me and it's not even touching me.
- More startup or less range on Cape. So many times has a Mario just caped me when I try to gimp him with a fair and a bair with D3 and MK respectively.
- Maybe a little more ending lag on aerials. They are just too safe!
- Maybe less range on forward smash. It outranges and devastates you if you aren't Marth or something.

This would make Mario a much more balanced character. I am a Mario main myself so I know about this stuff. These would only be very tiny tiny tweaks so you'd think they were always there. I'm following M2K's Icefrog philosophy of fixing the game with little nerfs to give a weakness without destryoing their strenghts.

I think Mewtwo and Pit need some tweaks too.

MEWTWO
- Less invinclibilty on Teleport.
- Less power.
PIT
- Less Power
- Nerfed to hell recovery lol
I'd also like for Falcon to be buffed in somemway. Maybe faster tilts? 64 Falcon Punch? Lasting hitboxes using fire?

 

[Paradoxium]

Lol. Works on scrubs. Decent Falcos don't fall for this.

Falco destroys MK on big stages, MK destroys Falco on small. And I am more than happy to quote stuff from the MK MU boards if I need to. If anything MK has a much easier time vs Fox than Falco because Fox's combo game is a lot worse than Falco's, who can potentially 0-death MK if he has any degree of tech skill. Also lasers bog down MK. He basically has to jump and hope to land behind Falco, which Falco can just run off and then continue shooting.

I have both online and offline experience in this matchup. Falco and MK are very close. I just think Falco wins because his neutral game is a lot less risky.

If you think that your only option against Falco is to jump and hope to land behind him then you are playing mk completely wrong.

What kind of gameplan is that? Do you see melee Marths doing that? How about melee fox's? because Mk has the best of both worlds between those characters.

Against a defensive Falco Mk can take to the skies and completely bypass his laser pressure. This was one of the big reasons why Jiggs and Peach did well against Falco in melee. Mk has multiple jumps with better landing air attacks. If you pressure Falco with spaced tilts or spaced fairs his oos options cannot reach you. Also Mk's moves beat out all of Falco's aerials, you can actually nair with meta knight and it will beat Falco's dair. When characters are in defensive positions you can easily bait things out, and Mk can punish anything Falco does with a grab. And once you grab Falco it is pretty much stock. A simple ledge hop nair or dtilt or whatever will seal the deal.

Against an aggressive Falco you just wd oos. If he commits to anything mk has a ton of things he could punish with. Mk's moves all come out fast and they out prioritize Falcos, which is huge. Which means Falco has to be super cautious about ever committing because his moves will be beaten out, and if he whiffs he will get grabbed. The Fox and Falco match up is considered slightly in Fox's favor, but mk has all of fox's advantages over Falco plus more. I guess the only thing Mk doesn't have is Fox's lasers and close range shield pressure. But Fox doesn't have enough time to use laser's in the match up anyways and Mk can still apply pressure from affair. Als you say Falco can combo mk well, but Fox gets comboed even harder.

I don't know why you would bring up lasers and say they hinder Mk. Mk handles them better than most characters. Jiggs did well because she could fly over them, Fox did well because of his speed. Mk has multiple jumps like Jiggs and a run speed as fast as Fox's. If Lasers shut mk down then they would be impossible to beat with every other character.

People have been dealing with Falco lasers for years, Metaknight of all characters should have no problem dealing with them. All you need is a good platform game, be good at wd oos, and have good spacing. Because mk can space himself to where he wont be in Falco's burst range while Falco will be in his burst range.

Don't listen to everyone who tells you that space animals are unbeatable or whatever. You gotta look at match ups without any bias and just observe them. Just imagine Mk in melee, he would probably be rank 1. If you consider all of his tools he does much better against Falco than Jiggs, Peach, Fox, and Marth. And those match ups were by no means unwinnable .

I believe Mk ****s on spacies due to my irl experiences. And Mk is like my anti spacy character.

 

[leekslap]

If you think that your only option against Falco is to jump and hope to land behind him then you are playing mk completely wrong.

What kind of gameplan is that? Do you see melee Marths doing that? How about melee fox's? because Mk has the best of both worlds between those characters.

Against a defensive Falco Mk can take to the skies and completely bypass his laser pressure. This was one of the big reasons why Jiggs and Peach did well against Falco in melee. Mk has multiple jumps with better landing air attacks. If you pressure Falco with spaced tilts or spaced fairs his oos options cannot reach you. Also Mk's moves beat out all of Falco's aerials, you can actually nair with meta knight and it will beat Falco's dair. When characters are in defensive positions you can easily bait things out, and Mk can punish anything Falco does with a grab. And once you grab Falco it is pretty much stock. A simple ledge hop nair or dtilt or whatever will seal the deal.

Against an aggressive Falco you just wd oos. If he commits to anything mk has a ton of things he could punish with. Mk's moves all come out fast and they out prioritize Falcos, which is huge. Which means Falco has to be super cautious about ever committing because his moves will be beaten out, and if he whiffs he will get grabbed. The Fox and Falco match up is considered slightly in Fox's favor, but mk has all of fox's advantages over Falco plus more. I guess the only thing Mk doesn't have is Fox's lasers and close range shield pressure. But Fox doesn't have enough time to use laser's in the match up anyways and Mk can still apply pressure from affair. Als you say Falco can combo mk well, but Fox gets comboed even harder.

I don't know why you would bring up lasers and say they hinder Mk. Mk handles them better than most characters. Jiggs did well because she could fly over them, Fox did well because of his speed. Mk has multiple jumps like Jiggs and a run speed as fast as Fox's. If Lasers shut mk down then they would be impossible to beat with every other character.

People have been dealing with Falco lasers for years, Metaknight of all characters should have no problem dealing with them. All you need is a good platform game, be good at wd oos, and have good spacing. Because mk can space himself to where he wont be in Falco's burst range while Falco will be in his burst range.

Don't listen to everyone who tells you that space animals are unbeatable or whatever. You gotta look at match ups without any bias and just observe them. Just imagine Mk in melee, he would probably be rank 1. If you consider all of his tools he does much better against Falco than Jiggs, Peach, Fox, and Marth. And those match ups were by no means unwinnable .
I believe Mk ****s on spacies due to my irl experiences. And Mk is like my anti spacy character.

Also, Flaco Lomfartis gets gimped like it's nothing. Yeah, Falco is awesomer than my face and he can zero to death MK, but just play smart and he's history. Almost literally. Also, your argument got a bit weak when you started to get a bit weak when you compared him to Peach. That's like comparing popcorn to a fruit.

 

[Paradoxium]

Also, Flaco Lomfartis gets gimped like it's nothing. Yeah, Falco is awesomer than my face and he can zero to death MK, but just play smart and he's history. Almost literally. Also, your argument got a bit weak when you started to get a bit weak when you compared him to Peach. That's like comparing popcorn to a fruit.

Yea I'm terrible at making arguments lol

I only compared there abilities to float over Falco's lasers. Because peaches ability to float over lasers and fall with an attack was one of the reasons why the peach falco match up is even. Mk can do the same thing which was why I compared them.

 

[victinivcreate1]

If you think that your only option against Falco is to jump and hope to land behind him then you are playing mk completely wrong.

What kind of gameplan is that? Do you see melee Marths doing that? How about melee fox's? because Mk has the best of both worlds between those characters.

Against a defensive Falco Mk can take to the skies and completely bypass his laser pressure. This was one of the big reasons why Jiggs and Peach did well against Falco in melee. Mk has multiple jumps with better landing air attacks. If you pressure Falco with spaced tilts or spaced fairs his oos options cannot reach you. Also Mk's moves beat out all of Falco's aerials, you can actually nair with meta knight and it will beat Falco's dair. When characters are in defensive positions you can easily bait things out, and Mk can punish anything Falco does with a grab. And once you grab Falco it is pretty much stock. A simple ledge hop nair or dtilt or whatever will seal the deal.

Against an aggressive Falco you just wd oos. If he commits to anything mk has a ton of things he could punish with. Mk's moves all come out fast and they out prioritize Falcos, which is huge. Which means Falco has to be super cautious about ever committing because his moves will be beaten out, and if he whiffs he will get grabbed. The Fox and Falco match up is considered slightly in Fox's favor, but mk has all of fox's advantages over Falco plus more. I guess the only thing Mk doesn't have is Fox's lasers and close range shield pressure. But Fox doesn't have enough time to use laser's in the match up anyways and Mk can still apply pressure from affair. Als you say Falco can combo mk well, but Fox gets comboed even harder.

I don't know why you would bring up lasers and say they hinder Mk. Mk handles them better than most characters. Jiggs did well because she could fly over them, Fox did well because of his speed. Mk has multiple jumps like Jiggs and a run speed as fast as Fox's. If Lasers shut mk down then they would be impossible to beat with every other character.

People have been dealing with Falco lasers for years, Metaknight of all characters should have no problem dealing with them. All you need is a good platform game, be good at wd oos, and have good spacing. Because mk can space himself to where he wont be in Falco's burst range while Falco will be in his burst range.

Don't listen to everyone who tells you that space animals are unbeatable or whatever. You gotta look at match ups without any bias and just observe them. Just imagine Mk in melee, he would probably be rank 1. If you consider all of his tools he does much better against Falco than Jiggs, Peach, Fox, and Marth. And those match ups were by no means unwinnable .

I believe Mk ****s on spacies due to my irl experiences. And Mk is like my anti spacy character.

Wavedash OoS is not exactly fast. MK's wavedash is not that good either.

Bruh. Back throw is a free edgeguard if 1. Your opponent's DI sucks, 2. If they're at like 90% minimum, 3. If they're near the edge. MK is not the character who sits next to the edge.

Falco can literally CC shine MK's nair approach easily. MK can CC another MK's bair and nair until 41% and 51% respectively. Falco can CC it for much longer since he weighs more. Guess what Falco can do? CC shine! CC JC Up Smash! CC Down Tilt! CC Shine is the important one. We all know how Falco works. Shine dair spam then get one roll/tech in place read and spam fsmash.

MK's aerials are not incredibly safe on shield. All of his aerials are unsafe except for back air which has enough shield push back to make it safe.

I don't think spacies are unbeatable, hell I main Mewtwo. I know spacies get lol'd. My friends play Deep Diddy Kong and Lucas. All 3 of us jank up spacies. I think they're underrated in PM because there are literally two good spacie players, Mew2King and DEHF.

You make it seem as if Falco gets 7:3'd by MK. He doesn't. Falco is considered to be one of MK's most difficult matchups. The scrubby eventhubs site has the Falco vs MK MU as 1st place 47% 5-5, and 2nd place 23% 6-4 Falco's favor.

 

[Shadic]

I hate Mario with a passion so here's my tweaks!
- 1/4 or slightly less than 1/2 a second more of hitstun. It's riduculous how many combos he can escape.

Hitstun is a universal constant in smash. It doesn't vary per character.

As for all the MK vs. Falco discussion, please take balance/matchup debates into another topic.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I hate Mario with a passion so here's my tweaks!

You could have ended your post there.

Nothing anyone says about nerfing a character because they hate it is ever worth a read.

Also 'here are my tweaks'. 'Not here's'

 

[steelguttey]

buff olimar

 

[leekslap]

buff olimar

THIS.

Fix his broken tether ( or use the smash 4 up b ), give him more priority, making him heavier makes more sense than his fall speed since space makes you really floaty even though you would be heavy on earth, either make the pikmin order linear and/or make his antennae light change depending on his current pikmin, faster flowering time by 5 seconds, etc.

 

[victinivcreate1]

THIS.

Fix his broken tether ( or use the smash 4 up b ), give him more priority, making him heavier makes more sense than his fall speed since space makes you really floaty even though you would be heavy on earth, either make the pikmin order linear and/or make his antennae light change depending on his current pikmin, faster flowering time by 5 seconds, etc.

Olimar is fine as he is.

 

[leekslap]

Olimar is fine as he is.

NO. I'd main Olimar in a heartbeat if he had theese changes.

 

[McSlur]

I speculate much faster games and less ledge stalling and tether mindgames. Ultimately, with everything we've seen the game looks like a ton of fun! Can't wait till the next patch!

 

[steelguttey]

remove rng from oliamr and im good

 

[TheCometCE]

Hoping Bowser gets looked at, I dropped maining him and put him on sub duty because I just can't seem to land my hits with him for various reasons (long jump startup, much of the roster negating his armor, etc.).

Not sure what he needs, he's kinda in an odd spot from my experience, but some adjustments would be nice.

 

[Mean Green]

As mentioned above, Bowser def needs to get looked at. They tried, but it wasn't enough to help him. That's one character besides Jiggs that could use a little help.

Bringing it back to OP's topic (3.5 speculation), I can't help feeling, like with any good series, that they'll probably go overboard and ruin it to some extent.
We all know PM isn't perfect but now they're going to cater to people who like to whine about their struggles instead of overcoming them, and it's kind of sad. I know they're not going to progress without addressing what's criticized, but they also have to recognize how lazy and insatiable people are. Just an example, they announced some LGL of 5 grabs with invulnerability. But you immediately had people whining for 2 and 3, as if they already forgot the previous limit in every smash game/P:M version to date (none).

Things like edgeguarding can be a challenge but how often do you see matches lost solely from a failure to get a desperate gimp?
And why would you want the game dumbed down in any way? (that's just how I see it). Though I'd like the Melee up-B angles back, I actually want Fox as hard to use in PM as he was in Melee.

When I started playing smash competitively, I had a friend I couldn't beat for weeks or months. I was pretty glad it was that challenging and impossible. I didn't want anything any easier, I just wanted to improve and get up to that level. Same for challenges in PM. Idk I kind of thought that was a normal mentality.

 

[Deleted member]

They're going to nerf Denti,

rip plant man

They're going to nerf ZeRo,

rip angel boy

They're going to nerf Mew2King,

rip furry

And finally they're going to add a triple jump, and rename the game into, "Project: Recovery".

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

As mentioned above, Bowser def needs to get looked at. They tried, but it wasn't enough to help him. That's one character besides Jiggs that could use a little help.

Bringing it back to OP's topic (3.5 speculation), I can't help feeling, like with any good series, that they'll probably go overboard and ruin it to some extent.
We all know PM isn't perfect but now they're going to cater to people who like to whine, it's kind of sad. I know they're not going to progress without addressing what's criticized, but they also have to recognize how lazy and insatiable people are. Just an example, they announced some LGL of 5 grabs with invulnerability. But you immediately had people whining for 2 and 3, as if they already forgot the previous limit in every smash game/P:M version to date (none).

Things like edgeguarding can be a challenge but how often do you see matches lost solely from a failure to get a desperate gimp?
And why would you want the game dumbed down in any way? Though I'd like the Melee up-B angles back, I actually want Fox as hard to use in PM as he was in Melee.

When I started playing smash competitively, I had a friend I couldn't beat for weeks or months. I was pretty glad it was that challenging and impossible. I didn't want anything any easier, I just wanted to improve and get up to that level. Same for challenges in PM. Idk I kind of thought that was a normal mentality.

This makes a lot of sense. Seeing that they have to do some nerfing, i can't help but also believe that they WILL mess up on something. Whether it being the recoveries, the LGL game, or just the nerfs in general, something will be messed up because some people can't handle change, and thus makes something not fit in.

Now something related to the OP. One of the most requested thing is Light Shielding. So i wouldn't be expecting too much from this other than some bugs and glitches (A.I. Upgrade please) if they implement this.

 

[Deleted member]

no, i legitimately want a shield drop option. theres absolutely no reason to keep shield drop as finnicky and controller-specific as it is now, especially since the "easy" way from melee doesnt work.

i dont care if the melee players *****, theyre making us play with 3 stock. dedicated melee players arent playing PM anyway.

We actually agree on something Umbreon! This will go down in PM forum history.

PM players are so lazy lol. If you aren't putting forth the effort to know when your opponent is vulnerable then that's your fault. The easier PM is made, the less skill is incorporated. It's no wonder the melee community pokes fun at PM when suggestions like yours are presented.

You've gotta be ****ing kidding with this post.

 

[Ganondalf]

PM players are so lazy lol. If you aren't putting forth the effort to know when your opponent is vulnerable then that's your fault. The easier PM is made, the less skill is incorporated. It's no wonder the melee community pokes fun at PM when suggestions like yours are presented.

There is a clear difference between information and understanding how to play your character or your enemies. By this logic we should make shields harder to see, make attacks have not-so-obvious animations and really ****ty graphics because they would certainly make the game more difficult. And difficulty means more tournament worthy, right?

The flash is easily obscure-able by attacks, characters specific movements and even poofy white clouds so yes, there should be a definite 'no more invulnerability' indicator. Not to make the game easier, but because obscurity does not equate to difficulty.

 

[G13_Flux]

As mentioned above, Bowser def needs to get looked at. They tried, but it wasn't enough to help him. That's one character besides Jiggs that could use a little help.

Bringing it back to OP's topic (3.5 speculation), I can't help feeling, like with any good series, that they'll probably go overboard and ruin it to some extent.
We all know PM isn't perfect but now they're going to cater to people who like to whine, it's kind of sad. I know they're not going to progress without addressing what's criticized, but they also have to recognize how lazy and insatiable people are. Just an example, they announced some LGL of 5 grabs with invulnerability. But you immediately had people whining for 2 and 3, as if they already forgot the previous limit in every smash game/P:M version to date (none).

Things like edgeguarding can be a challenge but how often do you see matches lost solely from a failure to get a desperate gimp?
And why would you want the game dumbed down in any way? Though I'd like the Melee up-B angles back, I actually want Fox as hard to use in PM as he was in Melee.

When I started playing smash competitively, I had a friend I couldn't beat for weeks or months. I was pretty glad it was that challenging and impossible. I didn't want anything any easier, I just wanted to improve and get up to that level. Same for challenges in PM. Idk I kind of thought that was a normal mentality.

try to take into consideration that the dev team has had a lot of experience already with over nerfing, under nerfing, and listening too much to complaints/suggestions/feedback or whatever you want to call it. everything theyre doing is to promote competitive play. if everyone (including experienced players, developers, and the community alike) are all recognizing the strength in a good majority of recoveries, there might be some weight to it. if you want to label that as "catering to people who like to whine" then so be it. they see a lot more than you think. its a bit closed minded to already say that its inevitable that theyre going to ruin the game to some extent.

 

[Ganondalf]

As mentioned above, Bowser def needs to get looked at. They tried, but it wasn't enough to help him. That's one character besides Jiggs that could use a little help.

Bringing it back to OP's topic (3.5 speculation), I can't help feeling, like with any good series, that they'll probably go overboard and ruin it to some extent.
We all know PM isn't perfect but now they're going to cater to people who like to whine, it's kind of sad. I know they're not going to progress without addressing what's criticized, but they also have to recognize how lazy and insatiable people are. Just an example, they announced some LGL of 5 grabs with invulnerability. But you immediately had people whining for 2 and 3, as if they already forgot the previous limit in every smash game/P:M version to date (none).

Things like edgeguarding can be a challenge but how often do you see matches lost solely from a failure to get a desperate gimp?
And why would you want the game dumbed down in any way? Though I'd like the Melee up-B angles back, I actually want Fox as hard to use in PM as he was in Melee.

When I started playing smash competitively, I had a friend I couldn't beat for weeks or months. I was pretty glad it was that challenging and impossible. I didn't want anything any easier, I just wanted to improve and get up to that level. Same for challenges in PM. Idk I kind of thought that was a normal mentality.

if you are going to be this negative and think that challenging changes or critiquing balance issues is whining then maybe you need to crawl back int your self-absorbed manchild cave? Nothing in your post was constructive, it was literally whining about what you think is whining. Oh, the irony.

 

[Mean Green]

Ok damn people sorry for my opinion. I've seen a lot of good series (movies/shows/games) go down because people wanted to prolong it or keep making changes. I can't help but keep my expectations low. Sorry I should've kept that to myself.

if you are going to be this negative and think that challenging changes or critiquing balance issues is whining then maybe you need to crawl back int your self-absorbed manchild cave? Nothing in your post was constructive, it was literally whining about what you think is whining. Oh, the irony.

I've read a lot of stupid complaints from people who struggle with something, and just because the game is under development they cry out for nerfs on what they could probably overcome. If this was an official title or another game they'd have to deal with it and improve. I'm a big smash fan and I love its challenges. But I guess I shouldn't have expected the same from other people or been that pessimistic.

 

[Mean Green]

everything theyre doing is to promote competitive play. if everyone (including experienced players, developers, and the community alike) are all recognizing the strength in a good majority of recoveries, there might be some weight to it.

You're right.
Recoveries don't bother me, because my focus always improving on-stage combat. But that's just me. I shouldn't have posted.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ganon has a hover

M2's tail is shortened and he can no longer hover out of teleport

Lucas's pk freeze will no longer combo into anything unless it is at point blank range, and his upthrow sucks

All tethers have a super laggy get up animation

Knuckles is a playable character

Fox regains the M2k angle on his up B and his short hop matches his melee short hop

Zelda is completely redesigned

Ness's pk fire no longer activates on shield

*sigh* Damn it Knuckles. If only Tails was easier to make. =(

 

[Deleted member]

We actually agree on something Umbreon! This will go down in PM forum history.

i changed my mind upon reading your post just now

edit: hopefully knuckles isnt blatantly abortion-status in his design like sonic is.

 

[pooch182]

If we get Knuckles, I want a Pumpkin Hill stage.

 

[Deleted member]

If we get Knuckles, I want a Pumpkin Hill stage.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y60gKGtuw6E

 

[Cubelarooso]

hopefully knuckles isnt blatantly abortion-status in his design

Too late.

 

[Rᴏb]

I hope Knuckles got aborted.

 

[Roxas215]

Tiers only comes to play when both players are of the same skill level. Obviously a Yoshi winning a tournament will be more impressive then a Fox winning. But that doesn't mean the Fox player didn't acheieve a impressive feat. It don't matter how good the tools of a character are. You as a player have to be good to utilize those tools to win.


With all that said Diddy is a stupid ass character. But still the diddy players that are winning with him are still of a higher skill level then the diddy players that aren't.

As far as Zelda. I don't think she was OP. But im glad she's getting redesigned. She was probably the most boring character i ever fought against in any fighter i played. If tottaly changing up a characters moveset from top to bottom was the only way they could make the character viable then that says something about the character itself. Im sure you can keep her original moveset intact yet buff her to becoem viable. Zelda was always my go too argument in how i believe PM sometimes goes to far with their changes just because they have the ability to do so rather then it being something that was needed.

Knuckles is meh. But understanding the work that goes into making new characters if this is what they thought would make the best of their time then i'll accept it. They did great work with mewtwo. They just need to tweak him a bit.

Of course this is all assuming this info is correct. But i've all of this multiple times within the last couple of months that i do believe it has merit.


Anyway i wish i could compalin about my characters and demand buffs and feel 100% justified in what im typing. I do believe both my characters are around the bottom half of midtier(Sheik and Zard) However i also believe both of my characters are gonna be indirectly buffed by the across the board recovery nerf. If Sheik can edgeguard realibly then i really cant complain about her lack of guarnteed kill setups. If Zard will now have an even easier time of edgeguarding then i can't really complain about him getting mawled and having a lack of good OoS options when he has the tools to get you off stage.

3.5 is really make or break for me in deciding if im gonna keep playing this in tandem with smash 4 or just focus on smash 4. I do like Pm but some of the stuff in this version is just way too gimmicky for me.

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

I'd have to agree on that. P:M is my favorite smash game at the moment, and when I read that thing on ledge invincibility I was like "What...?"

This is the make it or break it for me. I liked- no loved- that part of melee. That is part of what made it melee-like to me. Somethings are better left alone. I'm probably going to keep my 3.0 Build on my computer so that I'll have something to play if I feel like its broken now.

I don't think we've seen someone abuse stalling to such an effect where it needs to be gone- right now.

My opinion.

 

[Boiko]

One thing I'll never understand is why nerf a character that isn't winning any large tournaments unless there is some mechanic about them that is absolutely broken?

I think we can all agree that characters like M2, Pit, Lucas, Link, Diddy, and Mario need a bit of a nerf. Pit's arrows are an nonpunishable projectile that combos into kill moves. Lucas has an amazing recovery and great combos and shield pressure. Link has extremely powerful kill moves that he can combo into from his most spammable projectile. Diddy has bananas and barrels from his recovery, but outside that he is fine. Mario has a high damaging, fast, spammable projectile, guaranteed kill move set ups, and amazing recovery. I believe every player is aware of these characters needing minor nerfs, and IMO, that's fine.

However, I hear talks of Ness having his PK Fire no longer activate on shield because it's "annoying." That makes zero sense, IMO. The most notable Ness player is Awestin, and he hasn't done anything too magnificent. Just learn to avoid it instead of getting hit. Ness has one move outside of this, magnet, that is positive on shields and allows him to punish. Ness mains can do almost nothing to an opponent who just chills in their shield and punishes approaches with fast OOS options such as shine. It's just silly. It's my understanding that Ness is generally considered a mid tier character at best despite this "broken option."

My question still stands. Why nerf a character just because a mechanic is "annoying" when that character has very few other options and isn't usually considered a high tier to begin with?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Just because you don't personally see them at tournaments doesn't mean they aren't relevant. In fact they may be so relevant you might see the characters you do because they are necessary to beat characters you DON'T see.

So possible reasons could be 1) They don't work as intended and could eventually be toxic.

2) They already are a problem but simply aren't seen at the highest level for a variety of reasons (Bracket match-ups, players using them, abundance of a certain hard-counter).

 

[Narpas_sword]

I don't think we've seen someone abuse stalling to such an effect where it needs to be gone- right now.

My opinion.

If a player isn't abusing it to that point, then the change wont affect them...

also, how is someone stalling for invincibility something you love from melee?
That seems ...nutty.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Some changes shouldn't be thought of as "nerfs," but rather as "removal of unwanted elements."
I think a great example is Ice Climbers not being able to Wobble. Sure, IC's weren't top tier, rarely came in first, Wobbling couldn't accomplish anything more than a gimp does, and a player reliant on it was easily read and could be beat down pretty hard. But that doesn't mean it should be kept; it was non-interactive (temporarily disallowing a player from playing), unimpressive (in terms of tech skill and style), and pointlessly long-lasting, a combination that is not good if you want people to play your game.
Another criterion for consideration is the removal of depth. If a certain technique is strong enough to always be used to the exclusion of a characters' other abilities, or if a skill ceiling is so low as to preclude advancement or even practice, then it can make the game less interesting, and I think people should be interested in Project M.
Basically, it doesn't just matter if you win or lose.

I wouldn't necessarily say PK Fire on shields would fall into this category; however, whenever something truly causes a rabble in the playerbase, it should not go unnoticed. Even if there's nothing actually wrong with the way things are, a creative touch might still make the game more fun for everyone.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Straight up removing activation on shields seems like an unlikely change to me, I dunno. If it ends up being nerfed we'll probably just see the duration lowered, or some other more conservative adjustment.

 

[Boiko]

Just because you don't personally see them at tournaments doesn't mean they aren't relevant. In fact they may be so relevant you might see the characters you do because they are necessary to beat characters you DON'T see.

So possible reasons could be 1) They don't work as intended and could eventually be toxic.

2) They already are a problem but simply aren't seen at the highest level for a variety of reasons (Bracket match-ups, players using them, abundance of a certain hard-counter).

Not working as intended is fine, that makes perfect sense. In my personal opinion, PKF is super easy to get out of, just roll the second it hits your shield, spot dodge, powershield, or SDI in the proper direction and you'll take either zero damage or maybe 3. I feel as those complaining about it are those that haven't experienced it enough to realize it's really not a broken mechanic in the least. When I played M2K, he had little trouble getting out. I think I may have capitalized off of a PKF on shield once during our set. If I managed to actually hit him, it was much more rewarding. Idk, I just don't want to see a character get neutered because the PMBR gave him one really good option and (more than likely) noobish players think it's broken. Like I said, players can safely sit in their shield against Ness as he has basically zero safe options to approach shield sans PKF.

Just one man's opinion.

 

[Phaiyte]

I bet Fox's Shine will be +10 on block in 3.5