Just seeing what all your thoughts are here, from my perspective, samus is dead in the water as soon as she is off stage now, once you tether the stage, you can't cancel it into an up b to stop oncoming edgeguards, and if you are hit out of it, all an opponent needs to do is simply hold ledge and roll when your up b gets close because you no longer have a grapple, and were knocked too far away to get back to the stage. Unless someone figures out a way to use the rising grapple to make samus less gimpable, I foresee this character dead in the water in 3.5 since she was not designed to be a glass canon stylistically
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3.5 The Death of a viable samus
- Thread starter Litt
- Start date
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
samus is really good in 3.5 i think
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
She's still fine, just have to be a lot more careful with conserving jumps and maximizing bomb jump distance. Get good at the omni-wall climb because it's much more important now. The removal of tether drop is sad though, it was a fun tech/mixup. Anyway, we have to consider Samus in the context of 3.5 where everyone was nerfed, rather than 3.0 meta where recoveries were excellent across the board.
check the forums, everyone has this thread going on about their character being dead.
she seems fine to me, a few minor changes that shouldn't hurt too bad.
she seems fine to me, a few minor changes that shouldn't hurt too bad.
No one addressed any of the points as to the why except Chevy, and all he really did is say we just have to make the best of it now :/ Foxes will gimp the **** outa samus at the highest level, its just my prediction that gimps will severly hurt samus in 3.5 competitive play
If they could just make melee tethers a thing instead of doing this she would be very good still. I'm kinda with barbie and chevy on this one. Like on one hand yes most characters did get toned down some quite a bit and this is a good thing for sammy. But at the same time she got hit in a crucial area of her gameplay. A Samus that can't survive can't thrive. Fox and Falco actually got better recoveries now which is not fair. Fox is pretty exempt from being changed much because of the backlash from the melee community I feel like. A game where fox isn't top tier just isn't smash to a lot of them which is bs but I digress. Getting back to topic a lot of her gameplay remains the same and is even more melee like then before and with the improved mechanics her wavedash length from melee has been restored. Samus' ground game compared to the rest of the cast is better then ever now so thats nice. I think to be effective in this patch we are going to have to adopt her old melee strats way more then before and just become a sexy fortress. Trying to be flashy and getting punished will make or brake your games now so gotta be careful.
pooch182
Smash Journeyman
I think she's totally fine even with the nerfs. Her neutral is still incredible, she's got great tools in her kit to thrash FFers and floaties alike, and she can still bomb jump for horizontal. Just treat it more like melee recovery, and use rising grapple all the time. I already started implementing rising grapple into my PM play for like a month now, and it's been working out just fine. As for dealing with Fox gimps and stuff, he's got PAL recovery now, so he can't go out as far to do the job, so we've got time to think about our mix ups.
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
you guys are nubs, samus is one of the best in 3.5 i think. her f tilt is so good
Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
They buffed Fox's recovery to match NTSC, actually. I'm fairly certain Fox is just the best character in the game now, u-smash nerf or no.
pizzacato
Smash Ace
Okay, so DACUS, apparently every character has one? Ours can me imitated with a running upsmash. so it nullifies it. 
Guel
Smash Journeyman
lol samus dead PSH please. Kids are just bad. My samus is still bodying ppl no problem. Tether b up bombjumps walljumps tether rising grapple missiles canon. More than enough to mix up her offstage game. Get good or get edgeguarded. Your choice. I love how 3.5brought the scrubs out.
Who the **** are you? I have literally never heard of you and you want to chime in with nothing but listing options she has left, and saying get good or get lost? Actually present reasons when you argue instead of broad statements that give no actual merit to your side other than WOOOOOO SAMUS YA YA YA... :/ serious dont come in here shooting your mouth off, because I am not one to take it.
Vashimus
Smash Master
The IASA frames getting pushed back on Ice Fair also hurts quite a bit, and leaping for offstage kills with it now will be much riskier. Some kind of tether nerfs were expected, so I got over it a while ago. No drop down Screw Attack sucks though.
All in all, she's still really good. Thankfully they fixed my biggest problem with her in 3.02 though, which was her crouch-->crawl oftentimes take priority over platform-dropping. Now, missile canceling is much more consistent, and I couldn't be happier.
All in all, she's still really good. Thankfully they fixed my biggest problem with her in 3.02 though, which was her crouch-->crawl oftentimes take priority over platform-dropping. Now, missile canceling is much more consistent, and I couldn't be happier.
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Yeah the way to over come that in 3.02 way to just Shai drop though platforms... its fast anyway than normal drop through after a regualar landing
Prince_Abu
Smash Lord
as long as samus has her broken f tilt she is still good
dude you play puff... (a good puff at that, and fox).... but Im willing to bet this experience of saying samus isnt broken b/c she still has ftilt is more what you dislike when playing against her, relative to your vast experience as a samus main/player.
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Lime Cultivist
Smash Apprentice
Samus is still very good. Most characters were nerfed and now suddenly everyone is unviable to people because of a few nerfs that slightly change a character's metagame, mainly in recovery. I haven't heard any "Game and Watch is broken" yet, but I'm sure that'll happen just because he wasn't nerfed. This is the only thing that really annoys me about the update.
Lol well g&w was actually buffed a bit with the neutral B, and his up air was make like multi hit now much faster than before
NeXi'
Smash Rookie
ESAM seems to think Samus is one the best in the game now
He thought that before. Esam said in 3.02 she was the best. His opinion not a fact. I had a little local tourney I won today with Samus and I gotta say I'm probably gonna favor ice mode now. Fire upsmash is just stupid easy to get ot of now and annoyed me. Gonna have to get used to that new up air angle to catch people in it. Haven't played melee samus in quite a while so it isn't something i'm used to now. How ypu guys feel about that new fsmash effect? I think it's pretty dang awesome.
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pooch182
Smash Journeyman
It kind of bugs me that they changed the hitboxes on plasma upsmash, removed the SDI multipliers, AND reduced the BKB and KBG on the last hitbox of it. I mean, I knew it was broken, but just ruining it by making it Melee upsmash wasn't the right way to go about fixing it. Plasma fair has welcome changes, I love that last hit BKB got toned down. It makes it more like Melee for linking upairs and fairs together.
As for ice mode, I kind of knew ice fair was gonna be laggier (hence me stating that both fairs are laggy in an earlier draft of my guide), which makes sense to me. As for the new f-smash, it's a cute effect, but it doesn't really do much for us. Down-tilt still makes me sad.
Up air changes are perfect and don't really hurt too much for her meta game, I'm exceptionally happy with their decisions on that.
Thank God they finally fixed her on platforms with crouching, because it's just annoying to switch from Melee to PM and then not be able to MC or just drop platform in general as easily.
Overall, I still think she's got an incredible neutral game, and I'm not really too upset with how they dealt with tethers (a lot of the stuff, like reeling time, was suggested by me). I feel as though she's rather well designed, and in a build that seems like it's going to favor Melee characters, I'm expecting her to perform well given her new Ice kit in addition to what she's already had in Melee. She still destroys spacies, and she can deal with Falcon, Sheik, and Marth a lot better in PM than she could in Melee. Honestly, I can see Ganon being a difficult MU, similar to how it is in Melee. It'll be campy, and he can deal with projectiles better, so I'm excited to see how the metagame develops for that MU in particular.
As for ice mode, I kind of knew ice fair was gonna be laggier (hence me stating that both fairs are laggy in an earlier draft of my guide), which makes sense to me. As for the new f-smash, it's a cute effect, but it doesn't really do much for us. Down-tilt still makes me sad.
Up air changes are perfect and don't really hurt too much for her meta game, I'm exceptionally happy with their decisions on that.
Thank God they finally fixed her on platforms with crouching, because it's just annoying to switch from Melee to PM and then not be able to MC or just drop platform in general as easily.
Overall, I still think she's got an incredible neutral game, and I'm not really too upset with how they dealt with tethers (a lot of the stuff, like reeling time, was suggested by me). I feel as though she's rather well designed, and in a build that seems like it's going to favor Melee characters, I'm expecting her to perform well given her new Ice kit in addition to what she's already had in Melee. She still destroys spacies, and she can deal with Falcon, Sheik, and Marth a lot better in PM than she could in Melee. Honestly, I can see Ganon being a difficult MU, similar to how it is in Melee. It'll be campy, and he can deal with projectiles better, so I'm excited to see how the metagame develops for that MU in particular.
pizzacato
Smash Ace
I think ice Fsmash can properly punish spot dodges.
Yea can anyone confirm ice fsmash catching spot dodges everytime and being safe on shield? I never really used it enough to tell but i want to use it a lot more now at low percent since that is when it links properly. As for ice dtilt having a use. Has no one but me actually go for this in being a perfect charge shot tech chase? Only gets beat by crouch cancel and of course shield but I recommend baiting an option with the crawl or wavedash back then doing it to avoid that or hitting shield. Plus ice up smash outta shield is pretty legit for a kill or combo starter no? Not sure if my opponents just couldn't l cancel properly to avoid it.
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Starfall11
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2014
- Messages
- 213
- 3DS FC
- 4227-1720-3560
There's always that random guy who goes into every thread about character nerfs and says "Oh, that character is still great/broken." And coincidentally he has a troll Jigglypuff avatar. I wouldn't be surprised if you were on every forum!!!! TROLL
pooch182
Smash Journeyman
Ice d-tilt CAN lead to charge shot, but so can d-throw, or up-throw on spacies, or a lot of other, more reliable set ups that have back up plans as well. It's a very one-dimensional move that serves us no purpose that isn't better handled by uptilt or grabs or plasma dtilt. Ice Upsmash OoS is slow as ****, and you need to be making a HUGE read to pull that off, otherwise you've got no reason to be in shield in the first place.
True that it's just personal preference I suppose. I do other things with uptilt usuually rather than charge shot unless it is going to kill them. As for Ice upsmash Oos thats what I figured but just wanted to ask. I usually do reserve it for laggy moves coming in or just go ahead in throw it out there before they even get to me. Only true issue I have is fire upsmash being crappy again. Just not fair .
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G13_Flux
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
- Messages
- 1,076
samus is literally going to be top tier. her tether was disgustingly good in 3.0, and for someone whos floaty, can use missiles, aerials, ands bombs/bombjumps so easily to defend against edge guarding, AND has like 6 frames of invincibility on her up b, i dont think shes going to have a problem.
aside from that, for someone with a combination of such a good ranged game with projectiles, AND a close up game between things like CCing, ftilt, fsmash, and morph ball, as well as beefy moves to trade with or beat out trades, AND an amazing recovery but yes still is one of the heaviest in the game, i dont think shes going to have a probably getting past high teir and into the top contending category.
aside from that, for someone with a combination of such a good ranged game with projectiles, AND a close up game between things like CCing, ftilt, fsmash, and morph ball, as well as beefy moves to trade with or beat out trades, AND an amazing recovery but yes still is one of the heaviest in the game, i dont think shes going to have a probably getting past high teir and into the top contending category.
pooch182
Smash Journeyman
I meant uptilt is better suited for edge guarding, which is supposedly what ice dtilt is supposed to be for.True that it's just personal preference I suppose. I do other things with uptilt usuually rather than charge shot unless it is going to kill them. As for Ice upsmash Oos thats what I figured but just wanted to ask. I usually do reserve it for laggy moves coming in or just go ahead in throw it out there before they even get to me. Only true issue I have is fire upsmash being crappy again. Just not fair
Stop with the whole tier lists thing. Speculation is cute and all, but it's a brand new meta game that has plenty of time to develop (depending on when they drop 4.0 on us). She's got a lot of great kit, and I agree she'll be able to perform well. To assume that she'll be "high tier" or anything like that is silly, because we haven't even had time to see how the changes to Samus compare to the changes of other characters. As for the invincibility, it's 5 frames when grounded, and 3 frames when aerial with UpB. It's not that impressive as far as recovery goes.
Lol nooo do not use dtilt for edge guards. I like using it for like I said charge shot tech chases. Personal preference in looking to link my charge shot versus grab due to the semi difficult nature in getting a grab as Samus. That may very well be its only use.
G13_Flux
Smash Lord
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- Jan 1, 2013
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- 1,076
are you going to tell the whole community to stop with the whole tier list thing? try and let me know how that works out. speculation is the center of creative discussion. you think about things, discuss potential and possible outcomes, and then you generate some form of possible conclusion. can it change? yes. does that mean you shouldnt bring it up and avoid it in conversation? absolutely not. you can continue thinking its cute, but im going to continue to discuss.
the title of this thread is "the death of a viable samus." my discussion and points that show why i believe shes going to be top tier are centered around how absurd it is that someone really thinks samus is dead now.. maybe im wrong, but nonetheless, i bring up some valid points.
3 frames of aerial invincibility is quite a lot actually as far as recovery goes. when you think of how one frame of invincibility on the shines was actually kinda a big deal at the micro level when they removed it, 3 of them is quite potent, especially when considering the speed and coverage of her up b. its not exactly easy to break through her recovery.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Actually, @
Prince_Abu
while definitely being a troll is one of the best Puff players in Melee, is Top-5 PRed in Central Ohio for PM and also has played Samus off and on in PM since 3.02 has been out.I think there's merit to what he's saying and still believe that Samus is one of the stronger characters in the game in 3.5
Starfall11
Smash Journeyman
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- 3DS FC
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Lol. I am aware of this. I was joking around with him. Hope it didn't come off the wrong way. I hope 3.5 ends up being our most balanced iteration of PM yet.Actually, @
I think there's merit to what he's saying and still believe that Samus is one of the stronger characters in the game in 3.5
HEY EVERYONE HOW ABOUT YOU SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT WHY YOU THINK SAMUS IS GOOD AND INSTEAD DISCUSS THE MERIT OF WHY I BELIEVE SHE IS BROKEN NOW REGARDING USING THE TETHER BY ANY MEANS AGAINST A COMPETENT PLAYER... OF COURSE SHE ****ING HAS GOOD NEUTRAL AND NO THIS THREAD IS NOT LETS TALK ABOUT THE CHARACTER CHANGES IN THE UPDATE, I AM SAYING THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL FLAW IN HER TETHER RECOVERY THAT MAKES IT NONVIABLE AS AN OPTION BECAUSE IT MEANS DEATH.
pizzacato
Smash Ace
Flaming Dragon Wang
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 938
Good lord, dude.
Lol if everyone wants to talk about the changes made, go make a new post and talk about them. I am made this as a serious post, to discuss what I believe to be a design flaw inherent to samus's grapple that makes it unusable against any competent player. Too much control has been taken away from samus from the point of grapple release to the point of grabbing/reeling in to ledge, and too much time afforded to the opponent to capitalize on this situation. Which as I said prior, makes samus's tether obsolete as a means of recovery. I do not mean samus is not a viable character in the sense that you cannot win with her, but what I am saying is logistically, what they did to the grapple turned it from broken to the point where you cant ledgeguard... to broken to the point where its too easy to edgegaurd