3.5 The Death of a viable samus

[Litt]

I am saying skill ceilings are lowered... As a result of tech skill floors being lowered and less of a differential is made from players having good to decent control over their character, rather match ups are prevailing as a result and it's necessary to be able to main multiple characters in Pm where you could make up for them in melee by simply being that much better

 

[cisyphus]

Except there's a much more massive amount of knowledge within Project M due to added brawl technology exploits, so I fail to see how the maximum tech skill could possibly be lower?

 

[Narpas_sword]

The maximum amount of tech available, and therefore the ceiling is higher in PM.

You've said it yourself, you play a melee samus in PM without focus on any Brawl or PM techs.
You are limiting your OWN ceiling. it's not that the games ceiling is lower.

 

[Litt]

The maximum amount of tech available, and therefore the ceiling is higher in PM.

You've said it yourself, you play a melee samus in PM without focus on any Brawl or PM techs.
You are limiting your OWN ceiling. it's not that the games ceiling is lower.

I think you are generalizing my melee
Origin with how to effectively play the character ....?and once again more tech just means that there is a greater variety of tech it does not mean greater difficulty of actually implementing in the game which does nothing to rebut my point of a higher skill ceiling in melee which is lowered in p.m. a variety of options is just what you need to consider when playing match ups... And has no implications for skill just recognizing and choosing the right option... Ie learning the Mus......

 

[Narpas_sword]

Eh, i'm sure you said that you don't utilize brawl techs.
If you're implementing them, then sorry, i stand corrected.

To help clear this up, have you got an example of where the ceiling is lower?

For instance: Shorthopping.

In PM it's the length of the squatframe.
in Melee it's squatframe -1.

So it's easier in PM by 1 frame.

At low level. it is easier for new players to learn to shorthop. the timing is slightly more lenient.
At high level, it's irrelevant. because every high level player can Shorthop when they need to.

This is lowering the skill floor needed to shorthop.
It doesn't affect the ceiling.

 

[Litt]

Eh, i'm sure you said that you don't utilize brawl techs.
If you're implementing them, then sorry, i stand corrected.

To help clear this up, have you got an example of where the ceiling is lower?

For instance: Shorthopping.

In PM it's the length of the squatframe.
in Melee it's squatframe -1.

So it's easier in PM by 1 frame.

At low level. it is easier for new players to learn to shorthop. the timing is slightly more lenient.
At high level, it's irrelevant. because every high level player can Shorthop when they need to.

This is lowering the skill floor needed to shorthop.
It doesn't affect the ceiling.

Tech chasing... at normal human reaction speed and becomes a joke when you have characters like charizard that can have a tech chase off dthrow... and also that same character that has a kill off a throw... neither of which require any skill as a player, and using such tech as a primary play style is effective against players that have worked on developing their meta and tech skill with more challenging characters... yet could still lose to that bs because of a low enough skill ceiling where tactics like that are viable and effective... **** like that doesnt happen in melee, because of the faster pace of play and the strain of a less forgiving game technically ... on top of the mental aspect of match ups in doing what is most optimal/effective

 

[Narpas_sword]

Tech chasing... at normal human reaction speed and becomes a joke when you have characters like charizard that can have a tech chase off dthrow... and also that same character that has a kill off a throw...

Unsure how this is different to melee fox?

 

[Litt]

Unsure how this is different to melee fox?

You don't understand how melee fox... doesnt have kills off throws? (which you can smash DI out of if you reference up throw up air... which is not a kill off a throw, if it is possible to get out of and not guaranteed on the entire cast), as for d throw, the tech chase is a reactionary guess, no one can actually out of reaction up smash or regrab from fox's dthrow... maybe you have played too much PM and are getting melee and PM fox confused sir...

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's near enough that the point is still relevant.
That being there is dumb easy stuff in both games.

And it's not like charizard is anywhere near top tier.

PM still has a higher potential.
Melee has a higher floor.

 

[Litt]

It's near enough that the point is still relevant.
That being there is dumb easy stuff in both games.

And it's not like charizard is anywhere near top tier.

PM still has a higher potential.
Melee has a higher floor.

Fish will never see that they are not in water, just as you cannot see past your own ignorance of this game. Top tier in PM is irrelevant same as in melee, MUs are the only thing that matter, however player skill can surmount MUs because of the technical demands of melee, the same does not hold true for PM as a result of skill ceilings lowered and tech floors raised as you put it. Pika is a mid tier in melee, yet has an 80-20 MU on falcon a top tier, just an example of the irrelevance of tiers, they are simply rules of thumb. I bid this post adieu, because nothing I say can or will change your mind, nor do I care to do so, enjoy this game for whatever joy it brings you, it brings me none which is why I have ceased to play it, I will not respond past this point.

- Yours Truely
Barbie

 

[Narpas_sword]

You're right. nothing will change and the discussion is going nowhere.
It's been quite clearly explained that you were talking about skill floor, but you still can't see that.

Nice to know you wont be posting on this board anymore.

Please stick to it.

 

[Chevy]

I think he's made it abundantly clear numerous times that he doesn't understand either game at a high level. Praises Melee ignoring it's faults, does the opposite for PM for no reason other than presumed social bias.

however player skill can surmount MUs because of the technical demands of melee, the same does not hold true for PM as a result of skill ceilings lowered and tech floors raised as you put it. Barbie

Alternatively, "I get outplayed by random players in PM, but I beat them in Melee because they don't spend 2 hours a day practicing moving around the stage"

 

[Litt]

I think he's made it abundantly clear numerous times that he doesn't understand either game at a high level. Praises Melee ignoring it's faults, does the opposite for PM for no reason other than presumed social bias.



Alternatively, "I get outplayed by random players in PM, but I beat them in Melee because they don't spend 2 hours a day practicing moving around the stage"

Beat you plenty of times, must mean you don't understand the game at a high level either... both of you shut the **** up and don't drag my name through the mud because I chose not to partake in playing this imitation of a game made 14 years ago any longer. Narpas you are an unknown fraud of a player that just likes to talk, and Chevy I woulda thought you smarter to talk **** about me despite knowing we are at the same level in this game despite me not willing to put in the time to learn the ins and outs of every single match up nuance of a 42+ character cast. Hey... thats a nice looking high horse bud, don't fall off.

 

[Ace55]

Lmao, such drama.

 

[Chevy]

Beat you plenty of times, must mean you don't understand the game at a high level either... both of you shut the **** up and don't drag my name through the mud because I chose not to partake in playing this imitation of a game made 14 years ago any longer. Narpas you are an unknown fraud of a player that just likes to talk, and Chevy I woulda thought you smarter to talk **** about me despite knowing we are at the same level in this game despite me not willing to put in the time to learn the ins and outs of every single match up nuance of a 42+ character cast. Hey... thats a nice looking high horse bud, don't fall off.

This was never about skill, we're all terrible here on the Samus boards. It's about misunderstanding simple terms, and not being able to logically debate points. I have no beef with you or pretty much anyone, but I'd rather you not blatantly spread misinformation and illogical bias around.

Trash talk->I don't think not knowing 40 other matchups is an excuse for losing the Samus ditto to me the last 5 times we've played.

 

[Litt]

This was never about skill, we're all terrible here on the Samus boards. It's about misunderstanding simple terms, and not being able to logically debate points. I have no beef with you or pretty much anyone, but I'd rather you not blatantly spread misinformation and illogical bias around.

Trash talk->I don't think not knowing 40 other matchups is an excuse for losing the Samus ditto to me the last 5 times we've played.

5 times hmm i think that is a bit of an exaggeration, i think it was 3, and I beat you in the 2 sets before that... so again get your head out of your ass, and my bias was logical, based in fact, also check the guide the little things, we certainly got beef dude, I'm done here

 

[Narpas_sword]

, I'm done here

Of all thing you could be stubborn about and not back down from, i wish it was this.

 

[Chevy]

5 times hmm i think that is a bit of an exaggeration, i think it was 3, and I beat you in the 2 sets before that... so again get your head out of your ***, and my bias was logical, based in fact, also check the guide the little things, we certainly got beef dude, I'm done here

You beat me once in a Netplay tournament, before I ran it back and beat you twice in Grands. That was the last time you took a set off me, we had like 2 maybe 3 random ranked matches after that. That's not important though. If you can't back anything up that you say, you're not going to be taken seriously. Just cause you have beef doesn't mean I do. Beef is expensive yo.

 

[Litt]

You beat me once in a Netplay tournament, before I ran it back and beat you twice in Grands. That was the last time you took a set off me, we had like 2 maybe 3 random ranked matches after that. That's not important though. If you can't back anything up that you say, you're not going to be taken seriously. Just cause you have beef doesn't mean I do. Beef is expensive yo.

And before that tourney I beat you in a set before that as well... you practice the game and regularly play it, congratz on besting me, i dont doubt you are better at PM... but I understand the character fundamentally better than you from melee and I back up what I say from my results in that game, which I do very well for myself. Now I am returning only to that game since it was what I enjoy, it seems like you are buying your fair share of beef but not cooking yours, I suggest stop buying if you just throw it away instead cooking it

 

[TimeSmash]

Lmao, such drama.

More like such ellipses

 

[Chevy]

And before that tourney I beat you in a set before that as well... you practice the game and regularly play it, congratz on besting me, i dont doubt you are better at PM... but I understand the character fundamentally better than you from melee and I back up what I say from my results in that game, which I do very well for myself. Now I am returning only to that game since it was what I enjoy, it seems like you are buying your fair share of beef but not cooking yours, I suggest stop buying if you just throw it away instead cooking it

That's fine, if you enjoy Melee more, just play Melee. No one will fault you for that. Enough meat metaphors lol.

 

[Litt]

That's fine, if you enjoy Melee more, just play Melee. No-one will fault you for that. Enough meat metaphors lol.

This may be too old school for PM kids, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLaiY8kQKIU, peace

 

[Narpas_sword]

Calling us kids because we enjoy a different more diverse game to you just shows your childish level of maturity more than anything.

 

[pizzacato]

I'm going to give my two cents.

Narpas is correct on the terminology with Skill Floors and Skill Ceilings.
But PM in general has a lower skill CEILING, yeah you heard right. There may be more "options" but the ability to do them is very low, whereas the ability to do simple things in Melee is inherently harder.

In other words get gud nerds. loljk

Is this the consensus? I'll be honest. TL;DR'd so hard.

 

[Narpas_sword]

So, apart from SH being 1 frame more lenient, and the ability to run upsmash without crouching. (both of which are contributing to the skill floor, not ceiling)

What else is there that's so much harder in melee?

 

[pizzacato]

So, apart from SH being 1 frame more lenient, and the ability to run upsmash without crouching. (both of which are contributing to the skill floor, not ceiling)

What else is there that's so much harder in melee?

Now I think I might have confused myself, with more options comes more skill to master right? So higher skill ceiling?
And the skill floor is ease of ability to do them, right?

With more tech in PM and the ability to do them being fairly achievable, (granted a few take time to learn) you gain options when in Melee you have fewer. So that's the floor. OK got I meant floor then my b.

I'm not saying this makes PM easier, well maybe, but what I'm trying to get at is with fewer options, the skill to do what you need to do in Melee is more cut-throat.

And yes perfect, the SH, having to crouch or jump cancel for a running upsmash,
Also: SWD, tether stuff (needing a wall, and the ability to recover when latched lower than the ledge), Yoshi's OoS game, moon walk not able to use the C-stick trick (lol).

um um, well yeah.
I'm just being a noodle who wants everyone to call me when they get gud.

 

[Narpas_sword]

the skill to do what you need to do in Melee is more cut-throat.

And yup, this is exactly describing the skill floor.
More options means you have more to master. more to master = higher skill ceiling.

Think of skill ceiling as the top players doing top player things.
The 'difficulty' in doing things in melee isn't a factor in skill ceiling, because the top players do that consistently anyway.

The having to crouch for up-smash isn't by any stretch of the imagination 'hard' (not arguing harder here). Top players can do this consistently in melee no trouble. making it easier in PM doesn't lower the skill ceiling. it makes that technique easier to achieve for newer and lower skilled players. This is the skill floor.


When someone says a game takes 'More skill' They mean to say that it takes more skill to progress from a low level player, to a high level player.

This is the step up to the skill floor.

Let's suppose we have a game, and its sequel.

The game and the sequel are exactly the same. (**** sequel, i know, no one would buy it) except Game 2 has one new thing.
Let's have that one thing be 'New Tech 31'.

Game 1 has 30 Techs.
Game 2 has the same 30 Techs, and also now Tech31.

Game 2 gives you one more option.
- Learning to be able to use Tech31 is a required skill.
- Learning to cope with your opponent using Tech31 is a required skill.
Game 2 now has a higher skill ceiling. there is more potential, and more to learn.

Now Game 2 has found a way to make Tech14 easier.
- Game 1 and Game 2 High level people already know how to deal with Tech14.
- Game 1 and Game 2 High level people already know how to do Tech 14.
The ceiling stays the same.

However, a new player picks up game 2, and reads how to do Tech14.
They now have an easier time learning how to do it.
They have the same time learning how to defend against it.
This makes it easier for a new player.
This is the skill floor being lower.

 

[Litt]

Now I think I might have confused myself, with more options comes more skill to master right? So higher skill ceiling?
And the skill floor is ease of ability to do them, right?

With more tech in PM and the ability to do them being fairly achievable, (granted a few take time to learn) you gain options when in Melee you have fewer. So that's the floor. OK got I meant floor then my b.

I'm not saying this makes PM easier, well maybe, but what I'm trying to get at is with fewer options, the skill to do what you need to do in Melee is more cut-throat.

And yes perfect, the SH, having to crouch or jump cancel for a running upsmash,
Also: SWD, tether stuff (needing a wall, and the ability to recover when latched lower than the ledge), Yoshi's OoS game, moon walk not able to use the C-stick trick (lol).

um um, well yeah.
I'm just being a noodle who wants everyone to call me when they get gud.

Pm is like Rock Paper Sissors Lizard Spock played at a slow enough pace where you can watch the formation of the hand signs of your opponent before they commit to a choice, Melee is like Rock Paper Sissors where you have one eye looking into your opponents soul and the other at their hand... also you confuse skill ceiling with tech ceiling... just because there is more tech does not necessarily mean there are more options that can viably be chosen from, just more really bad options and slightly more kinda of good options. Being able to execute them at the right time with the right spacing does not require any more of less skill than previously assumed because there are just more... not more difficult to pull off, execute or implement, which means prediction is less of an influence should the greater option variety really mean greater options to choose from as Pizzacato and the others claim, and therefore if that is the case... that increases the amount luck and chance plays into guessing which option is coming... ergo, less skill involved and more luck or favoritism of better option select, ie... if you got a bad MU then you screwed... and no amount of skill will help you... when rock paper sissors and lizard beat most to all of your options in a given situation when giving up a single or all of your movement options... thus why MUs are so much worse in PM when you got a bad one... so no lower skill ceilings, because you can only get so good.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Another classic barbie argument.

States things.
Provides no reasoning.
Makes little sense

Next will be:

Implores people accept what he said.
Tells them he's better than them and their opinion means nothing because they're frauds.

Then the final:

PM is for Kids
You're all noobs
I'm quitting.

Repeat as (un)necessary.

 

[TheDarkMysteryMan]

Another classic barbie argument.

States things.
Provides no reasoning.
Makes little sense

Next will be:

Implores people accept what he said.
Tells them he's better than them and their opinion means nothing because they're frauds.

Then the final:

PM is for Kids
You're all noobs
I'm quitting.

Repeat as (un)necessary.

You have Barbie by the ropes...

 

[Litt]

You have Barbie by the ropes...

I have Narpas ignored so I won't see or reply to anything he says... he has nothing on the ropes because he is arguing against a wall that won't respond to even be aware of what he is responding with... he is a fraud nobody that has no skill in melee, pm or any smash game for that matter and just likes to try and keep up with people on here to feel as if his presence means something to the community, he is anti poster, contributing nothing aside from antagonistic views from others posts

 

[Narpas_sword]

I have Narpas ignored so I won't see or reply to anything he says... he has nothing on the ropes because he is arguing against a wall that won't respond to even be aware of what he is responding with... he is a fraud nobody that has no skill in melee, pm or any smash game for that matter and just likes to try and keep up with people on here to feel as if his presence means something to the community, he is anti poster, contributing nothing aside from antagonistic views from others posts

i like that he cant see my post, and is fulfilling the prophesy. LOL

 

[Chevy]

Pm is like Rock Paper Sissors Lizard Spock played at a slow enough pace where you can watch the formation of the hand signs of your opponent before they commit to a choice, Melee is like Rock Paper Sissors where you have one eye looking into your opponents soul and the other at their hand... also you confuse skill ceiling with tech ceiling... just because there is more tech does not necessarily mean there are more options that can viably be chosen from, just more really bad options and slightly more kinda of good options. Being able to execute them at the right time with the right spacing does not require any more of less skill than previously assumed because there are just more... not more difficult to pull off, execute or implement, which means prediction is less of an influence should the greater option variety really mean greater options to choose from as Pizzacato and the others claim, and therefore if that is the case... that increases the amount luck and chance plays into guessing which option is coming... ergo, less skill involved and more luck or favoritism of better option select, ie... if you got a bad MU then you screwed... and no amount of skill will help you... when rock paper sissors and lizard beat most to all of your options in a given situation when giving up a single or all of your movement options... thus why MUs are so much worse in PM when you got a bad one... so no lower skill ceilings, because you can only get so good.

There are more options to choose from, and some of them are viable. In any case there certainly aren't less. You're logic is pretty much complete nonsense and boils down to "I can't win bad match-ups like I can in Melee where my scrubby opponents have bad tech skill". Execution is barely a factor at the highest level of play, so even if your argument had the faintest bit of sense it dissipates when you're actually faced against a good player.

 

[Litt]

There are more options to choose from, and some of them are viable. In any case there certainly aren't less. You're logic is pretty much complete nonsense and boils down to "I can't win bad match-ups like I can in Melee where my scrubby opponents have bad tech skill". Execution is barely a factor at the highest level of play, so even if your argument had the faintest bit of sense it dissipates when you're actually faced against a good player.

My logic is more options, if they even are viable means greater chance of choose wrong as a result of prediction, which means luck plays a greater role in the difference between a 1/3 vs a 1/5 option select, which means high level play revolves around masters match ups, and has very little to do with player skill, which execution isnt a factor in this game at high level player... ergo high level players aren't good they just know the game which, which doesnt demarcate skill, it just demonstrates expereince and willingness to learn every nuance .... so no my argument stands strong even when you are actually faced against a good player, and why MUs play a much more integral role in this game.... This is not nonsense logic, it is hard fact based on the presuppositions posited by the lot of you claiming more tech = greater option select, which means the likelihood of winning bad match ups dramatically decrease when the skill ceilings are so low execution no longer plays a factor... match ups will and do prevail, and if you have an option select that wins 3-4/5 relative to 1-2/5 you are going to have the odds against you drastically.... especially when your skill as a player with regard to execution does not come into play.... ie... your assumption that all high level play can execute all at the same level because the game is flat out easy and very forgiving tech wise. MUs that have better option selects for one character stand at a much greater advantage... simply math bro you are blind and ignorant if you just choose to say, **** like "I can't win bad match-ups like I can in Melee where my scrubby opponents have bad tech skill". Now, 1, get the **** off my thread, 2, stop pulling this thread away from its intended purpose, 3. let me just ****ing leave already and stop responding to my posts, because clearly you won't see eye to eye on this and you are continuing a pointless argument

 

[Chevy]

My logic is more options, if they even are viable means greater chance of choose wrong as a result of prediction, which means luck plays a greater role in the difference between a 1/3 vs a 1/5 option select, which means high level play revolves around masters match ups, and has very little to do with player skill, which execution isnt a factor in this game at high level player... ergo high level players aren't good they just know the game which, which doesnt demarcate skill, it just demonstrates expereince and willingness to learn every nuance .... so no my argument stands strong even when you are actually faced against a good player, and why MUs play a much more integral role in this game.... This is not nonsense logic, it is hard fact based on the presuppositions posited by the lot of you claiming more tech = greater option select, which means the likelihood of winning bad match ups dramatically decrease when the skill ceilings are so low execution no longer plays a factor... match ups will and do prevail, and if you have an option select that wins 3-4/5 relative to 1-2/5 you are going to have the odds against you drastically.... especially when your skill as a player with regard to execution does not come into play.... ie... your assumption that all high level play can execute all at the same level because the game is flat out easy and very forgiving tech wise. MUs that have better option selects for one character stand at a much greater advantage... simply math bro you are blind and ignorant if you just choose to say, **** like "I can't win bad match-ups like I can in Melee where my scrubby opponents have bad tech skill". Now, 1, get the **** off my thread, 2, stop pulling this thread away from its intended purpose, 3. let me just ****ing leave already and stop responding to my posts, because clearly you won't see eye to eye on this and you are continuing a pointless argument

I really wish you had ever learned a punctuation other than ellipses, it makes it near impossible to ever decipher what you're trying to say.

I think you're argument is that having more viable options across the board means that in a bad matchup you potentially have to guess better to beat you're opponents choice. But you also have more options, some of which will undoubtedly cover multiple of their options. It's not really simple math, the game is a lot more complex than that. Unless you can actually give an example where you have a 1/5 chance against a bunch of their 3/5 or 4/5 options, it's just baseless theory.

Being possessive about your thread is weird, nothing is stopping you from leaving. I wish you would have a better attitude. Have a nice life.

 

[SilentDeadbolt]

I really wish you had ever learned a punctuation other than ellipses, it makes it near impossible to ever decipher what you're trying to say.

I think you're argument is that having more viable options across the board means that in a bad matchup you potentially have to guess better to beat you're opponents choice. But you also have more options, some of which will undoubtedly cover multiple of their options. It's not really simple math, the game is a lot more complex than that. Unless you can actually give an example where you have a 1/5 chance against a bunch of their 3/5 or 4/5 options, it's just baseless theory.

Being possessive about your thread is weird, nothing is stopping you from leaving. I wish you would have a better attitude. Have a nice life.

Now I'm not a high level player by any means so I'm not going to argue about which game is harder. However it doesn't take much to realize that Barbie's just letting his bias for melee control his argument instead of following the evidence and facts to come to a conclusion.
His argument seems to be based around the fact that there are so many more viable characters in pm that take less tech skill to use it suddenly makes the game have a lower ceiling to play.

The tech skill argument doesn't make since though because as has been stated by others top players have no problem consistently using all the tech anyways. Tech skill shouldn't even be a part of this discussion because it is irrelevant at a high level.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I've always thought what made players high level was their ability to use all the tech they know to use the best option at the right time and also adapting during sets and reading their opponents. This could extend to having knowledge of all relevant matchups for your character as well.

 

[Narpas_sword]

We all know he doesn't make sense, and just posts dribble separated with ellipses.
He's biased and refuses to listen to anyone's arguments against what he says because he perceives us all as worse than him.

We are 'frauds' in his eyes.
Frauds: People who say they're great at the game but are unable to back it up.

I dont remember anyone here other than barbie telling people how great they are.
I dont remember barbie being in the list of melee gods.
I dont remember barbies name being thrown around as a Samus great.

In all, it's not worth listening to him.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Barbie, reading your posts is hurting my soul. For one, please learn to form complete sentences and then end them. Sentences end for a reason; each one should be a complete point, with a paragraph being a series of setences, or a series of points, that support an idea. Understandably it's a forum, so you don't necessarily have to end sentences with periods; instead if you want you could make each sentence effectively its own paragraph by ending with nothing and pressing enter afterwards so there's still a clear cut-off point

More importantly, your awful, awful logic is hurting me the most. Like as I type, I'm having an internal battle of whether or not I should try to help you understand why you're wrong, or if I should leave it be because the chances of success are very low and it'd be an arduous process of stumbling your stubborn, incohesive, fallacious arguments just to give you a basic understanding of logic. For example, more options is strictly a good thing for a character. You don't have to use them, and if you choose not to, you have the same character, but you can always choose to use them to better handle just a single situation differently (and better) with one of your new tools. And if you find one of your new tools doesn't work as well or at all for that situation, then you just don't use it there, you use it somewhere else. Possibility of error due to the addition of new tools is a problem with bad players, not an issue with the character.