3.5 The Death of a viable samus

[pooch182]

Welcome to the world of "balance" in PM. It's a very difficult concept to grasp and apply to such a vast cast of characters, especially when they all function very differently. I wouldn't be surprised to see her recovery altered once more in the near future.

 

[Mean Green]

Welcome to the world of "balance" in PM. It's a very difficult concept to grasp and apply to such a vast cast of characters, especially when they all function very differently. I wouldn't be surprised to see her recovery altered once more in the near future.

Of course they're aiming for balance, I'm just saying they didn't need to go that far with Samus's grapple. It's like they hate her or something lol. You don't think the nerf was unnecessary?

@ Litt I tried to include you in a conversation, you have it blocked. I was gonna ask, do you have wifi? I've seen your Melee samus, I'd like a match.

 

[Deleted member]

lmao is this thread real

uninstall the game

 

[pooch182]

I guess I worded that poorly. I'm trying to say that it's impossible to get everything right, every single time. Let the format play out, and we'll all see what needs to be tweaked, and changes will be made depending on general consensuses and stuff like that. If Samus needs to have her recovery changed again to make her more balanced, then that's what will happen. It's hard to develop a game for free to a massive crowd who all want different things. They're trying their hardest, and I respect them for it, and we need to keep discussing balancing issues as unbiased as possible, because it's helpful for them to receive objective feedback.

 

[Samuch]

Elaborating on my thoughts on the topic in general

Yeah, that's what I thought but I didn't respond because I was unsure if we were about to bro down. You're totally right on the topic. Smash allows for unlimited growth potential. I bet even mew2king has things to learn. It's one of the things I love about Smash.

I get into this argument when telling people that I have no hype for Smash 4. What I hear most of the time is "if everyone's tech skill is on par then we focus more on the mind games". My feeling is that without that tech that Smash is known for, it does nothing but hold you back from reaching your potential. It allows for even more mind games and creativity IMO.

 

[Samuch]

Of course they're aiming for balance, I'm just saying they didn't need to go that far with Samus's grapple. It's like they hate her or something lol. You don't think the nerf was unnecessary?

@ Litt I tried to include you in a conversation, you have it blocked. I was gonna ask, do you have wifi? I've seen your Melee samus, I'd like a match.

The reason that I'm not as nervous is that Samus still lives to very high percentages, and still has a much MUCH better recovery than other cast members with her bombs. I think we will survive. No pun intended.

With that said, it's only been a short time period since the release, so I'll need to see some gameplay before I say it's not a big deal. Also, luckily PM isn't static like other games and if the community voice is loud enough then they would probably listen.

 

[Chevy]

Samus is still very good. She still has some bad matchups, but nothing too horrible anymore now that Mewtwo is an actual fight. Like I said, my only problem is how mindless it is to edge-guard tether now.

 

[Litt]

The reason that I'm not as nervous is that Samus still lives to very high percentages, and still has a much MUCH better recovery than other cast members with her bombs. I think we will survive. No pun intended.

With that said, it's only been a short time period since the release, so I'll need to see some gameplay before I say it's not a big deal. Also, luckily PM isn't static like other games and if the community voice is loud enough then they would probably listen.

The recovery is a result of her floatyness and bomb jumps, no where is her recovery improved anymore from the tether and it has just become a hazard to use.

Of course they're aiming for balance, I'm just saying they didn't need to go that far with Samus's grapple. It's like they hate her or something lol. You don't think the nerf was unnecessary?

@ Litt I tried to include you in a conversation, you have it blocked. I was gonna ask, do you have wifi? I've seen your Melee samus, I'd like a match.

No clue how to change that setting lmao, ya I have wifi and we can play if you want, just message me

 

[Naggy]

The tether nerfs are really getting my hopes up that the PM devs will figure out how to port melee tethers in 4.0

 

[pooch182]

Alright, so I finally got an actual chance to sit down and play some Samus in a tournament setting. I'm genuinely considering setting her aside this format. She feels disgusting off stage now, and utterly helpless against any sword character. Zair was the biggest thing we had in the Marth MU, and now it's absolute trash.

She still thrashes spacies, but I mean, she did that in Melee, so I'm not impressed with these changes at all. UpAir got MURDERED, and they made ice fair feel chunkier in a bad way. I'm all for nerfing Samus from 3.02, but it feels like nobody actually sat down with this character and tried to fix her correctly. She went from feeling like one of the more 'finished' characters in 3.0, in terms of polish and movesets and stuff, to feeling like she was tweaked by someone who hasn't even tried to play her competitively in PM or Melee.

As for the fixing of tethers to be Melee style, I highly doubt it's gonna happen. Until we do get Melee tethers, which we probably won't, I feel like the reel time and latch time need to be restored to 3.0 status. The thing that was broken about her tether was it's length, nothing else (Is anybody else finding issues with tethering more vertically in this new format?). I found myself forced to recover high on multiple occasions in bracket today, which made me feel like it was just a fruitless affair to even attempt making it back. Either fixing the reel time/latch time or giving all Z-tethers 2 tethers as well are the only way for them to be useful at all, especially for Samus. At least the other tether characters have safe options to make it back, and Link and TL can AGT and have a bomb to throw at the opponent without much risk.

After being able to really play her in a tournament setting, her bad match ups feel even worse, and her good match ups don't feel as dominant as they used to. Her neutral game is still fine, but it's just so jarring to have lost so much for seemingly little to no tradeoff. A lot of her just feels unusable now.

 

[Mean Green]

Alright, so I finally got an actual chance to sit down and play some Samus in a tournament setting. I'm genuinely considering setting her aside this format. She feels disgusting off stage now, and utterly helpless against any sword character. Zair was the biggest thing we had in the Marth MU, and now it's absolute trash.

She still thrashes spacies, but I mean, she did that in Melee, so I'm not impressed with these changes at all. UpAir got MURDERED, and they made ice fair feel chunkier in a bad way. I'm all for nerfing Samus from 3.02, but it feels like nobody actually sat down with this character and tried to fix her correctly. She went from feeling like one of the more 'finished' characters in 3.0, in terms of polish and movesets and stuff, to feeling like she was tweaked by someone who hasn't even tried to play her competitively in PM or Melee.

As for the fixing of tethers to be Melee style, I highly doubt it's gonna happen. Until we do get Melee tethers, which we probably won't, I feel like the reel time and latch time need to be restored to 3.0 status. The thing that was broken about her tether was it's length, nothing else (Is anybody else finding issues with tethering more vertically in this new format?). I found myself forced to recover high on multiple occasions in bracket today, which made me feel like it was just a fruitless affair to even attempt making it back. Either fixing the reel time/latch time or giving all Z-tethers 2 tethers as well are the only way for them to be useful at all, especially for Samus. At least the other tether characters have safe options to make it back, and Link and TL can AGT and have a bomb to throw at the opponent without much risk.

After being able to really play her in a tournament setting, her bad match ups feel even worse, and her good match ups don't feel as dominant as they used to. Her neutral game is still fine, but it's just so jarring to have lost so much for seemingly little to no tradeoff. A lot of her just feels unusable now.

"Welcome to the world of balance in PM" bro

 

[Foo]

Not really sure why you guys are acting like her recovery is TERRIBLE all of the sudden. Sure, her tether is pretty easy to edge guard, but you still have options out of it. Tether hop, hold back into up-b still works. You can get hit out of it, but it's a mixup with holding forward.

Also, her recovery would be pretty solid if you took out her tether altogether. She is super heavy and super floaty with great stalling, so, the gap between up-b recovery and tether recovery is a place where most characters would already be dead. As for it being brainless to defend against, it's just as brainless to edgeguard a fox, falcon, shiek, mario, g&w, etc when their only option left is to sweetspot ledge. Not to mention, where most characters would be dead in that situation, you still get a chance to come back.

While her recovery did take a huge hit, it's still one of the best recoveries imo. ZSS ONLY has tether to recover in most situations, but I still don't have too much trouble recovering.

I don't feel there's anything wrong with the Samus tether nerfs, especially since she's SUPER good this patch.

 

[pooch182]

I'm gonna be honest with y'all, I wrote that on no sleep after dropping $40 on a tourney where I got ****ed in bracket because we changed our pools so that first round was the top 4 players playing, instead of fighting for seeding, so I essentially was fed into losers. I lost to a scrub Marth who I consistently 3 stock in Melee in the same MU, and we're both primarily Melee players. She just can't deal with swords at all. I didn't even enjoy the friendlies I played against Ike, and Ganon beats Samus again.

In Melee, you only had one tether, but you had infinite possibilities on where to latch (even on the mountain on PS). In PM, we only get one, and while it goes farther, it's also slower and there's only one path to take. Samus also has the worst aerial mobility in the game, so you can't really mix up out of the forced ledge hop. You're gonna get punished. If you aren't getting punished, you're playing against a garbage player. Pretty simple stuff. It's not about how far our recovery goes, it's about forcing us to have a very basic flowchart to recover by, because our options are limited. Up B goes straight up and only gets 3 frames of intangibility, meaning you can just lose out to a player with good timing, you can't tether cancel into another tether to bait a guard, and if you get Eddie spiked or anything like that, you're just done.

Her neutral game is still good, sure; but this game still requires you to be able to function well off stage, and it's starting to look like it has to be like that or they'd need to drastically revamp a bunch of (primarily brawl) characters.

 

[Foo]

I didn't say it clearly, but basically, it's like this. If you are close enough to ledge to up-b, your opponent has to respect that option. If they respect that option, you can tether to ledge. Sure, if they predict your timing and/or, you are dead, but welcome to being part of nearly every character in the game.

Basically, samus recovery in this patch is similar to marth recovery, only with a better up-b and more options and defense.

 

[Mean Green]

...Also, her recovery would be pretty solid if you took out her tether altogether...

.....Please post only after you fight someone good using samus

 

[G13_Flux]

.....Please post only after you fight someone good using samus

you assume too much. dont assume anything about anybody because honestly you have no idea what kind of player Foo is. i think a lot of good points about samus's recovery were made by him and shouldnt be passed off with abstract, one sided remarks. because hes right, if you took away samus' tether, she would still have a better recovery than a good portion of the cast.

 

[Mean Green]

you assume too much. dont assume anything about anybody because honestly you have no idea what kind of player Foo is. i think a lot of good points about samus's recovery were made by him and shouldnt be passed off with abstract, one sided remarks. because hes right, if you took away samus' tether, she would still have a better recovery than a good portion of the cast.

I'm not doubting how good Foo is. Just his opponents' skill while he uses Samus. Who's the one assuming too much?
Remove the tether and she'd only have a disputably decent recovery. Better than who, Bowser, DK, Marth and Roy? If that constitutes "a good portion" then I guess you're right. Please forgive me.

 

[Foo]

I'm not doubting how good Foo is. Just his opponents' skill while he uses Samus. Who's the one assuming too much?
Remove the tether and she'd only have a disputably decent recovery. Better than who, Bowser, DK, Marth and Roy? If that constitutes "a good portion" then I guess you're right. Please forgive me.

I'd say, with no tether, her recover would be better than the following characters:

Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Falcon, Wolf, Falco, Iceclimbers (because killing nana is easy), sheik, ganon, marth, roy, and olimar. I'd call that a good portion of the cast. I'd say many of the characters on that list have a "pretty solid" recovery as well. It'd be better than theirs because

1. Samus is very heavy and floaty, automatically giving her good distance recover and makes her hard to knock out off the side.
2. Her bombs allow her to stall and protect herself while offstage. If anyone comes at you with an aerial bombing backwards will cover you very well.
3. Her fair and nair also have great protection (especially in ice form).
4. her up-b still has a few frames of intangibility, and has incredible priority. It does only go at one angle, but so do many of the characters above. It also has incredible priority, so it is very difficult to hit through it without a massive disjoint.
5. She has the ability to walljump as a mixup
6. Up-b hangs at the end, like marth and roy, so rolling onto stage won't cover it without grabbing ledge and rolling on at perfect timing. Also, if they don't grab ledge, you don't have to sweet spot, you can go for stage.

If you disagree with someone's point, that's fine, please say so. However, don't project words and actions for them to own. For all you know, I could be a super good samus player who is practice partners with sethlon, emukiller, and whomever else. You have never even seen me play. Shrugging off my opinions based on that assumption is fallacious even if you are correct in your assumption.

Also, Flux didn't say Bowser, DK, Marth and Roy were a good portion of the cast. He obviously believes there are more characters than that. If you disagree, by all means, say so and say why. It is very difficult to be 100% objective in a game with so many variables, and that's why so many reasonable people all have drastically different opinions.

As it stands, you haven't even made an argument against what either of us has said. You just made a declaration.

 

[Mean Green]

I'd say, with no tether, her recover would be better than the following characters:

Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Falcon, Wolf, Falco, Iceclimbers (because killing nana is easy), sheik, ganon, marth, roy, and olimar. I'd call that a good portion of the cast. I'd say many of the characters on that list have a "pretty solid" recovery as well. It'd be better than theirs because

1. Samus is very heavy and floaty, automatically giving her good distance recover and makes her hard to knock out off the side.
2. Her bombs allow her to stall and protect herself while offstage. If anyone comes at you with an aerial bombing backwards will cover you very well.
3. Her fair and nair also have great protection (especially in ice form).
4. her up-b still has a few frames of intangibility, and has incredible priority. It does only go at one angle, but so do many of the characters above. It also has incredible priority, so it is very difficult to hit through it without a massive disjoint.
5. She has the ability to walljump as a mixup
6. Up-b hangs at the end, like marth and roy, so rolling onto stage won't cover it without grabbing ledge and rolling on at perfect timing. Also, if they don't grab ledge, you don't have to sweet spot, you can go for stage.

If you disagree with someone's point, that's fine, please say so. However, don't project words and actions for them to own. For all you know, I could be a super good samus player who is practice partners with sethlon, emukiller, and whomever else. You have never even seen me play. Shrugging off my opinions based on that assumption is fallacious even if you are correct in your assumption.

Also, Flux didn't say Bowser, DK, Marth and Roy were a good portion of the cast. He obviously believes there are more characters than that. If you disagree, by all means, say so and say why. It is very difficult to be 100% objective in a game with so many variables, and that's why so many reasonable people all have drastically different opinions.

As it stands, you haven't even made an argument against what either of us has said. You just made a declaration.

Yeah I meant to mention Olimar and Falcon/Ganon. The rest of those characters are really debatable. And anyway I was in the middle of something, and I still am, and don't really feel like arguing. Might come back and edit later, but idrc.

Edit: You know what, ok I'll just say you're right. I take back what I said.

 

[pooch182]

I'd say, with no tether, her recover would be better than the following characters:

Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Falcon, Wolf, Falco, Iceclimbers (because killing nana is easy), sheik, ganon, marth, roy, and olimar. I'd call that a good portion of the cast. I'd say many of the characters on that list have a "pretty solid" recovery as well. It'd be better than theirs because . . .

Luigi - Arguable. Luigi has the ability to store a misfire, down b super high, and he's got a really high double jump. He's essentially in the same boat as Samus. Very good horizontal recovery, but once you close in towards the stage and have to recover from below, you're very linear and easy to cover.

Bowser - I agree.

Yoshi - Arguable once again. Yoshi has a surprisingly good recovery. HIs ability to act out of side B (not sure if he still does in 3.5, don't care too much to check) really helps him with his horizontal game, and his double jump armor is just really powerful and awkward to deal with. Of course, he's just destroyed by a simple footstool, but other than that, he's got a really strong fighting chance to make it back.

DK - I agree.

Falcon - Now that he's only got a meteor with Raptor boost, I'll agree.

Wolf and Falco - No. You're just wrong lol. In terms of distance, sure, you're fine to say that she's better. But these characters have an incredible range of angles to choose from, and can recover in any direction while having an active hitbox. Wolf even gets a windbox on his UpB, which helps him out even more.

ICs - I disagree. Squall hammer is incredibly good for recovery, from any point off stage. It reaches silly heights if you're even a sub-par masher, and you have enough aerial drift to go to top platform if you'd like. Sure, they go into special fall, but you've in the middle of the stage with a platform to mix up whether you're gonna land on it, ledge cancel, or fall through.

Sheik, Ganon, Marth and Roy, and Olimar - I'll agree. Olimar doesn't even have a real recovery. They still need to work on fixing Pikmin randomly desyncing when he's hit off stage.

1. Samus is very heavy and floaty, automatically giving her good distance recover and makes her hard to knock out off the side.
2. Her bombs allow her to stall and protect herself while offstage. If anyone comes at you with an aerial bombing backwards will cover you very well.
3. Her fair and nair also have great protection (especially in ice form).
4. her up-b still has a few frames of intangibility, and has incredible priority. It does only go at one angle, but so do many of the characters above. It also has incredible priority, so it is very difficult to hit through it without a massive disjoint.
5. She has the ability to walljump as a mixup
6. Up-b hangs at the end, like marth and roy, so rolling onto stage won't cover it without grabbing ledge and rolling on at perfect timing. Also, if they don't grab ledge, you don't have to sweet spot, you can go for stage.

1. She still dies incredibly easily off of the top, and if she misses one bomb jump, for whatever reason, she drops a character length, forcing her to recover lower (depending on her initial positioning upon missing the bomb)
2. Stalling with bomb also forces you lower and lower, and it's a war of attrition that Samus loses. Aerially bombing backwards and still managing to gain enough height to make up for the loss of good horizontal movement doesn't really happen, so it's a bad trade.
3. Nair and Fair are very slow moves that stay out for a long time, meaning you have to just hopelessly fall for a while after throwing them. Nair can also be traded with relatively easily, which puts Samus back off stage, so we lose that trade. Fair is alright, but it's easily outspaced and doesn't threaten like nair does. It's really not going to work more than a couple of times in a set against an intelligible player.
4. 3 frames of intangibility is utter dog**** when you consider how low you need to be to sweetspot, and the fact that the hitbox isn't active until frame 5. It has NO invincible priority while aerial, because there is no hitbox active during the aerial invincibility. Get your facts straight. While it has good priority, it still trades, which puts Samus in a bad position, at often times a very low risk cost from the opponent. It's a losing move in way more situations than it is a winning one.
5. Wall jumping while not having access to tether forces you to instantly bomb to be able to make it back to the ledge safely with Screw Attack. Bombing at that point has no invincibility and leaves Samus very vulnerable. If she does have access to a tether, she's got to deal with turning around first (which, admittedly, isn't too big of a deal).
6. The hang time isn't as long as either of the swordsmen, and they have better grab boxes for reaching the ledge, which means they can be safer under the ledge.

I'm not contesting the legitimacy of your points, so much as I am pointing out flaws that can be brought up from the other side of the argument. It's really easy to argue about stuff in writing, but a lot of what you're saying is very much only realistic when read. When playing, a lot of this stuff doesn't apply, and the same goes for a lot of the stuff I post, too. It's undeniable to say that, compared to her recovery in 3.0, Samus has been massively crippled when put off stage, and she hasn't really received any sort of tools to help balance out her now mediocre recovery.

Was it wrong of Mean Green to question the skill of your opponents? Not at all. First and foremost, it's his prerogative. Secondly, what you've stated has been shown to be untrue in real tournament scenarios against players of high intelligence and high caliber of play. Your opponent DOESN'T have to respect your ability to Screw Attack to ledge, because they can hog ledge and make use of their invincibility frames to avoid it, and even hit you into a stage spike (learn to buffer wall techs, kids), or just hit you backwards while they're still invincible. Tether went from being the best option every time to being an emergency use thing. It's a drastic change, and it's still imbalanced.

 

[Foo]

Luigi's is worse because it's super interuptable. You can literally gimp him by getting hit by his side b. Down b has distance, but it is really laggy at the end, easy to punish. He needs to get to stage and still have double jump in order to recover.

Wolf and Falco. While they are maybe slightly harder to edgeguard, distance matters. One decent hit off stage and they are too low to make it back. That means that's a time where you don't even HAVE to edgeguard them, they just die.

Yoshi's really close, but I'd put him below just because no double jump=death every time. Otherwise, it's about the same.

ICs is probably the most iffy on the list. It's only true if nana is dead, and I usually try to kill nana before po. Never played a good nana, so idk. Depends on matchup and stuff. Could go either way.

1. Dying off the top early, while a weakness, is irrelevant to her recovery. Also, missing bomb jumps is irrelevant too. It's not even hard to hit.
2. By stalling with bombs, I mean just using them to slow your fall speed, not bomb jumping off stage for a while. I wasn't talking about bomb jumping in place
3. I flat out don't believe you on this one. Nair is MASSIVE and ice fair is about as long ranged as marth fair. Unless you are against ivy or charizard, I don't see many aerials beating either of them out. Also, nair and fair come out really quickly. They are a little laggy, but not too laggy. If you bait out either of them with a jump, most characters can't just wait in the air for the hitbox to be gone and then punish. Just throwing it out forces them back to stage usually.
4. I need to get my facts straight? huh? A few=3 and I never said anything about "invincible priority" If I try to space back air with ZSS against samus up b, it usually doesn't even trade, I just get hit. Also, acknowledging for a moment that samus DOES have tether, if it trades and you aren't high%, you can just tether. If you are high%, your opponent secures a well-earned stock.
5. While in this hypothetical, there is no tether, you can actually use it in the real game. Walljump isn't an incredible tool, but it's an option.
6. It's not as good as the swordsmen, but it's close. Better than most characters have.

They have to respect your ability to screw attack, otherwise they would just sit on ledge and wait for you to tether for a free punish every time. Because you can screw attack, your opponent has to grab ledge as you screw attack and then roll in order to hog ledge long enough. If this is problematic for you, well, welcome to being a smash character that isn't 3.0 z tethers.

Sure, samus didn't receive any compensatory buffs for her tether nerfs. Again, welcome to being a 3.5 character. If this samus was put into 3.0, she would be god awful. However, basically everyone got nerfed with little to no compensation (unless you are a melee high/top tier). Samus recovery is still above average at the very least, and that's good. Recovery in the last patch was way too good, and samus probably had the best recovery in the game in 3.0. Maybe a couple had arguably better ones.

However, most characters had recovery AND fighting nerfed a lot, whereas samus got a sizable recovery nerfs, and some very slight nerfs/buffs to her fighting to add more counterplay. Probably the least nerfed 3.02 high tier other than fox.

 

[Mean Green]

In all honesty I'd rather play smash than argue with people about it.
And this must be like the 3rd or 4th time pooch comes in and says everything I don't have the energy or patience to say.

 

[pooch182]

Yo, I read that first "incredible priority" as 'invincible priority', so my apologies on that one. I'm more concerned with being forced to be linear with my recovery, rather than my distance I can recover from. I've got pretty good DI most of the time, which makes it so any character can live for pretty long. Being able to beat my opponent by having mix ups for recovery is the most important thing, because otherwise, as mentioned already, it removes all interactivity.

 

[Litt]

Yo, I read that first "incredible priority" as 'invincible priority', so my apologies on that one. I'm more concerned with being forced to be linear with my recovery, rather than my distance I can recover from. I've got pretty good DI most of the time, which makes it so any character can live for pretty long. Being able to beat my opponent by having mix ups for recovery is the most important thing, because otherwise, as mentioned already, it removes all interactivity.

How about we just keep in mind that all of those characters he suggested are better characters over all than samus... samus is a fat floaty ***** that zones other characters out, however when she dies or gets gimped early, she can't do that, essentially making her as much of a glass canon as falcon, however Falcon has speed and priority, yet samus has little of either.

ALSO WHY THE HELL DOES EVERYONE THINK UP B HAS HIGH PRIORITY... IT DOES NOT.... And that amazing intangibility... 4/60 --> 1/15th of a second she is invulnerable and then has to clank with the up b that comes out... which loses a lot of the time damage wise in a trade and samus ends up on the short end of the stick.... I have no intention to argue with people who come on here to talk about how or why she has a "good" recovery or is a "good" character... I made this to talk about a design flaw in tethers which no one wants to talk about, theyd rather talk about everything that isnt topic relevant, to which I say... GET THE FLYING **** OFF MY POST OR MAKE A DIFFERENT ONE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK SAMUS IS GOOD AND WHY YOU WANT TO PENIS RIDE HER IN 3.5

 

[Narpas_sword]

How about we just keep in mind that all of those characters he suggested are better characters over all than samus... samus is a fat floaty ***** that zones other characters out, however when she dies or gets gimped early, she can't do that, essentially making her as much of a glass canon as falcon, however Falcon has speed and priority, yet samus has little of either.

ALSO WHY THE HELL DOES EVERYONE THINK UP B HAS HIGH PRIORITY... IT DOES NOT.... And that amazing intangibility... 4/60 --> 1/15th of a second she is invulnerable and then has to clank with the up b that comes out... which loses a lot of the time damage wise in a trade and samus ends up on the short end of the stick.... I have no intention to argue with people who come on here to talk about how or why she has a "good" recovery or is a "good" character... I made this to talk about a design flaw in tethers which no one wants to talk about, theyd rather talk about everything that isnt topic relevant, to which I say... GET THE FLYING **** OFF MY POST OR MAKE A DIFFERENT ONE ABOUT WHY YOU THINK SAMUS IS GOOD AND WHY YOU WANT TO PENIS RIDE HER IN 3.5

afaik 'priority' isnt a thing anyway, it's just spacing.
Unless it's involving 2 ground moves then, if one does 9% more damage than the other, it will out prioritize it.
every other time, it's just keeping your hurt box outside of the opponents hitbox.

There are other exceptions, like, projectiles, and transient moves, but, its more complicated than something having 'high priority'


Anyway, you should change your topic title to something more specific to the tether if that's the only thing you want to mention.
the title as it is is broad and implies discussion of the character as a whole.

 

[Litt]

afaik 'priority' isnt a thing anyway, it's just spacing.
Unless it's involving 2 ground moves then, if one does 9% more damage than the other, it will out prioritize it.
every other time, it's just keeping your hurt box outside of the opponents hitbox.

There are other exceptions, like, projectiles, and transient moves, but, its more complicated than something having 'high priority'


Anyway, you should change your topic title to something more specific to the tether if that's the only thing you want to mention.
the title as it is is broad and implies discussion of the character as a whole.

The title refers to the OP.... which is the reasoning behind why she is dead in the water off stage should a tether be used... which is the basis of explanation to what the content of the thread should revolve around....

 

[Narpas_sword]

It's vague and completely understandable that others interpret it as a whole statement, not a partial towards one aspect.

it will be easier for you to refine the topic title than try to tell each person as they post.

 

[Litt]

It's vague and completely understandable that others interpret it as a whole statement, not a partial towards one aspect.

it will be easier for you to refine the topic title than try to tell each person as they post.

nah i like yellin at ppl, get off my grass you damn kids!

 

[ZeroPeachDedede]

Regardless of her flaws, this version of Samus is a huge improvement over the regular Brawl version. Brawl's version of Samus is slow, weak, and almost useless—she can't even use bomb jump combos. In Project M's version, she can do that AND more.......she quick, too.

 

[Narpas_sword]

This forum is nothing to do with brawl...

Shes also better than her metroid Pinball version...

 

[Litt]

Regardless of her flaws, this version of Samus is a huge improvement over the regular Brawl version. Brawl's version of Samus is slow, weak, and almost useless—she can't even use bomb jump combos. In Project M's version, she can do that AND more.......she quick, too.

WHO THE FUDGE CARES YOU UNFAMILIAR GENTLEMAN!

 

[ZeroPeachDedede]

WHO THE FUDGE CARES YOU UNFAMILIAR GENTLEMAN!

Thanks for your opinion, but I'm not about to argue with a minor.

 

[Litt]

Thanks for your opinion, but I'm not about to argue with a minor.

Hmm comes on here to share an option not relevant even to this game... calls someone a minor for holding back and not verbally accosting them for their ignorance and stupidity... kid... and yes I say kid here because chances are... I am older than you, and even if I am not, I understand the game on a fundamentally higher level than you can understand, so you shall always be a kid/minor to me ;p

... ps, I would not recommend starting **** with me... just ask anyone else here... you made your account yesterday, so its understandable you are new and don't know what the hell you are talking about...

 

[Missile]

The "Death of a viable Samus"? Really? LOL

You need to learn how to properly play her. She's more Melee Samus now, albeit with a slightly worse recovery.

Her grab game is better in Project M by a lot, her crawl has many uses and her fire up-smash actually does something. She can charge her neutral B while in the air and her roll... she has a roll, something she lacks in Melee. Her up-b is Melee 1.0's up-b, which sucks you into it and then spits you out on the last hit. You can't smash DI out of it basically, unlike Melee 1.1+ (1.0 is the first Melee disc in NTSC format in case you didn't know)

My guess is that you were one of those Samus players that ran away and used Zair when you couldn't deal with a matchup. Guess what? Samus also has trouble with Marth in Melee, a lot of trouble...

Don't watch videos of Wes playing Samus, watch videos of Plup and HugS playing Samus to learn how she has to be played to be successful.

Death of a viable Samus... please.

 

[Litt]

The "Death of a viable Samus"? Really? LOL

You need to learn how to properly play her. She's more Melee Samus now, albeit with a slightly worse recovery.

Her grab game is better in Project M by a lot, her crawl has many uses and her fire up-smash actually does something. She can charge her neutral B while in the air and her roll... she has a roll, something she lacks in Melee. Her up-b is Melee 1.0's up-b, which sucks you into it and then spits you out on the last hit. You can't smash DI out of it basically, unlike Melee 1.1+ (1.0 is the first Melee disc in NTSC format in case you didn't know)

My guess is that you were one of those Samus players that ran away and used Zair when you couldn't deal with a matchup. Guess what? Samus also has trouble with Marth in Melee, a lot of trouble...

Don't watch videos of Wes playing Samus, watch videos of Plup and HugS playing Samus to learn how she has to be played to be successful.

Death of a viable Samus... please.

Hey you stupid ignorant player... I am the top samus in my region... I think what they did to samus made her tether mean... death... not that her as a character is broken to the point of non use... read THE OP you stupid schmuck... second, don't make heuristics for players... especially when they are leagues better than yourself... and third, my guess is you are a scrub... i may or may not be right, but if I was to be as ignorant as yourself... Id make the jump that you are only semi competent, can just make it out of pools in your region, and get pooped on from there... but regardless my opinion or judgement is baseless... oh here is the real kick btw.... not only do I not own PM, I am PRed in my region for PM... but I am PRed for melee as well... I speak with Hugs and Plup frequently about game theory... and this isn't just on smashboards... so don't come on my post trying to talk ****... you will get **** on

 

[ZeroPeachDedede]

Than

Hmm comes on here to share an option not relevant even to this game... calls someone a minor for holding back and not verbally accosting them for their ignorance and stupidity... kid... and yes I say kid here because chances are... I am older than you, and even if I am not, I understand the game on a fundamentally higher level than you can understand, so you shall always be a kid/minor to me ;p

... ps, I would not recommend starting **** with me... just ask anyone else here... you made your account yesterday, so its understandable you are new and don't know what the hell you are talking about...

Thanks, Barbie. I appreciate your argument, but keep in mind that it was only sarcasm.

 

[BananaBolts]

If any tether recovery character has a right to complain, it's probably Ivy. I can still recover quite well with Samus but Ivy on the other hand got the global tether nerf, she got her dair nerfed, she can't wall jump, and she has no alternate recovery tool. Her tether reaches ridiculous lengths and fair or razor leaf cover a couple of options but her 'tether only' recovery gets snuffed out pretty easily. Be happy, Samus mains, you'll be okay.

I main Falcon, Ivy, and Marth. I live for that tough recovery. Having fewer clear-cut options will just make you a more creative player. Embrace the terrible recoveries.

 

[Litt]

If any tether recovery character has a right to complain, it's probably Ivy. I can still recover quite well with Samus but Ivy on the other hand got the global tether nerf, she got her dair nerfed, she can't wall jump, and she has no alternate recovery tool. Her tether reaches ridiculous lengths and fair or razor leaf cover a couple of options but her 'tether only' recovery gets snuffed out pretty easily. Be happy, Samus mains, you'll be okay.

I main Falcon, Ivy, and Marth. I live for that tough recovery. Having fewer clear-cut options will just make you a more creative player. Embrace the terrible recoveries.

THIS FORUM ISNT HERE TO ***** ABOUT YOUR OWN RECOVERIES... or say samus will do just fine... get lost

 

[BananaBolts]

THIS FORUM ISNT HERE TO ***** ABOUT YOUR OWN RECOVERIES... or say samus will do just fine... get lost

On the contrary, I'm fine with Ivy's recovery. I just want everyone to enjoy this wonderful version of PM. Samus, and every character for that matter, will see success at a competitive level. Enjoy Smash, my friend.

 

[Litt]

On the contrary, I'm fine with Ivy's recovery. I just want everyone to enjoy this wonderful version of PM. Samus, and every character for that matter, will see success at a competitive level. Enjoy Smash, my friend.

Eh I doubt ivy or samus will see too much success