3.5 The Death of a viable samus

[Chevy]

Honestly, against a lot of characters, it's not so bad. But the ones that can consistently edgeguard her it's just awful. I'd say screw attack is her primary recovery option now, we have to use more traditional spacing and bomb mix-ups which isn't really a bad thing. Honestly the biggest issue I have with it is how non-interactive edge-guarding her tether is. Is Samus far enough that she has to tether? Grab ledge->free super punish->Samus is heavy so repeat. Despite how difficult it was to do, edge-guarding Samus was very elegant in 3.02. It took a hard read or really good reaction time, but it was interactive. Now there's little incentive to even try to intercept the tether because you get a better punish from just holding on to the ledge, which halts the momentum of the match completely.

I feel like we should either keep the tether drop or lessen the lag on the forced hop. Problem with this is that Samus is already pretty well positioned in 3.5, and I don't believe that she needs either of these things. They'd just be good for more interactive ledge play.

 

[Prince_Abu]

dude you play puff... (a good puff at that, and fox).... but Im willing to bet this experience of saying samus isnt broken b/c she still has ftilt is more what you dislike when playing against her, relative to your vast experience as a samus main/player.

i dont have a lot of experience as a samus main yet, but i'm messing with the character a lot and i love the way she feels in 3.5. the only real nerf i think she has between 3.0 and 3.5 is her recovery, but as long as you are good at sweetspotting ledge with the tether its not even that bad. i definitely think shes a strong pick right now and i'll prove it in the months to come

 

[Samuch]

HEY EVERYONE HOW ABOUT YOU SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT WHY YOU THINK SAMUS IS GOOD AND INSTEAD DISCUSS THE MERIT OF WHY I BELIEVE SHE IS BROKEN NOW REGARDING USING THE TETHER BY ANY MEANS AGAINST A COMPETENT PLAYER... OF COURSE SHE ****ING HAS GOOD NEUTRAL AND NO THIS THREAD IS NOT LETS TALK ABOUT THE CHARACTER CHANGES IN THE UPDATE, I AM SAYING THERE IS A FUNDAMENTAL FLAW IN HER TETHER RECOVERY THAT MAKES IT NONVIABLE AS AN OPTION BECAUSE IT MEANS DEATH.

My god, you are annoying.


Stop ******** because people don't want to stick with what you want to talk about. Sign up to be a mod if it's really that important to you. Other than that, stfu.

 

[Litt]

My god, you are annoying.


Stop *****ing because people don't want to stick with what you want to talk about. Sign up to be a mod if it's really that important to you. Other than that, stfu.

God I am annoying? I made this ****ing thread you little scrub dib****, if you dont like what this thread is aimed at discussing... LEAVE... DONT COMMENT... MAKE YOUR OWN GOD DAMN THREAD.... Other than that you shut the hell up, you have contributed nothing to discussion, go find something better to do with your time than comment on a post you have no place being in

i dont have a lot of experience as a samus main yet, but i'm messing with the character a lot and i love the way she feels in 3.5. the only real nerf i think she has between 3.0 and 3.5 is her recovery, but as long as you are good at sweetspotting ledge with the tether its not even that bad. i definitely think shes a strong pick right now and i'll prove it in the months to come

I mean thats awesome dude, I saw a set of yours playing 3.0 samus, so I dont doubt you have a strong grasp of the game when applying it to the character. If you look to what Chevy was saying as well, killing samus is down to a flow chart now (SHOULD samus use the grapple when the opponent is in a neutral or advantageous position), this nerf has essentially forced samus to sweet spot with the up B instead as the primary means of recovery. It just takes a lot of thought out of the process and gives samus no incentive to actually use the tether.

 

[KingChaos]

Only way to make the tether usable in my experienc. Is to fire a missile either homing or super depending on where your opponent is at the moment you descend into range of your tether. A lot of times people will get stuck trying to avoid the missle rather than take ledge or get hit by it. We have to think hard about our recoveries now. We can still make use of tether most of the time if you are crafty or at the very least it will add to our mix up game and edge guarding Sammy won't be so free on a high level. Missle missle missle your way back if you have to especially in ice mode. Not our answer to every option our opponent can take against us but certainly makes it more difficult to get the edge guard.

 

[Chevy]

Shooting missiles will work sometimes, but a good player will just refresh invincibility before the missile gets there. And then we profit nothing and just lose height.

 

[pizzacato]

I'd be okay with no drop tethers, if we had Melee tethers....

 

[Chevy]

My god what I would give for Melee tethers. Samus' recovery isn't good anymore. It's got distance, but no significant disjoint or mix-up. She can stall in the air and try to come down from above, but lord knows how bad of an option that is with her floatiness and lack of bottom reaching disjoint. I will give it a little more time, but I'm starting to have a pretty dreadful outlook on this.

Also, up-smash SDI modifier needs to be reverted, move is useless against anyone who can SDI now. The hitbox reduction was a welcome nerf, though.

 

[Litt]

My god what I would give for Melee tethers. Samus' recovery isn't good anymore. It's got distance, but no significant disjoint or mix-up. She can stall in the air and try to come down from above, but lord knows how bad of an option that is with her floatiness and lack of bottom reaching disjoint. I will give it a little more time, but I'm starting to have a pretty dreadful outlook on this.

Also, up-smash SDI modifier needs to be reverted, move is useless against anyone who can SDI now. The hitbox reduction was a welcome nerf, though.

Wow so everything i said was spot on... :o :o :o ;p, also the fire upsmash isnt useless, its still more useful than the melee one and I can use that one pretty damn effectively

 

[KingChaos]

So what is an effective use for the fire up smash barbie? Catching them at a certain part will make it harder for them to get out? How do you catch spacies in it particularly. They just keep falling out when I try it.

 

[pooch182]

Down-tilt to upsmash is still a thing at low percents. It's not gonna be a free 30%, but you'll still be able to put big damage on.

 

[Litt]

So what is an effective use for the fire up smash barbie? Catching them at a certain part will make it harder for them to get out? How do you catch spacies in it particularly. They just keep falling out when I try it.

They need to be almost inside of samus when you iniciate the start up, and they need to hit by the back end of the hitboxes moving towards the back end of samus so they will be pulled into each next hit, should they hit the first part of the hitbox they cane easily just sdi out of it. The last option is to get just the last hit of the up smash on a harder read of where fox/falco will move in.

 

[Narpas_sword]

her recovery should be made more canon. sod the tether, make samus intangible throughout screwattack =p

but yea, things are a lot harder now. =/ just means we'll have to refocus our attention to onstage spacing and not getting hit off as much.

 

[KingChaos]

They need to be almost inside of samus when you iniciate the start up, and they need to hit by the back end of the hitboxes moving towards the back end of samus so they will be pulled into each next hit, should they hit the first part of the hitbox they cane easily just sdi out of it. The last option is to get just the last hit of the up smash on a harder read of where fox/falco will move in.

Ah I see so gotta kind of run into them. Kind of awkward but I think I get it. I'll try that and see if it works better. I've gotten so use to it picking people up in front of me.

 

[BBOY15]

Why can't we just have tethers that work like in Melee? It's much more fun when you can latch onto any part of the stage and not just the edge.

 

[Narpas_sword]

we'd have them if they could do it.

 

[Litt]

Ah I see so gotta kind of run into them. Kind of awkward but I think I get it. I'll try that and see if it works better. I've gotten so use to it picking people up in front of me.

Pretty much, also on FoD when the plats are at their lowest height, you can catch a ton of people with fire upsmash that are on the platforms with a jump cancel one or up smash OoS

 

[BBOY15]

we'd have them if they could do it.

I wonder why they can't do it?

 

[Boiko]

I wonder why they can't do it?

A dev team member explained it to me in person a while ago.
It has something to do with the tether mechanics automatically homing for a ledge and they would need to code every piece of the wall as a ledge... something weird to that effect. It was a long time ago, lol.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I wonder why they can't do it?

this about sums up my thoughts on the matter:

 

[BBOY15]

A dev team member explained it to me in person a while ago.
It has something to do with the tether mechanics automatically homing for a ledge and they would need to code every piece of the wall as a ledge... something weird to that effect. It was a long time ago, lol.

Funny, I was just thinking that they should program every piece of the wall as a ledge. Guess it would be harder than I previously figured, now that I think about it.

 

[Litt]

Funny, I was just thinking that they should program every piece of the wall as a ledge. Guess it would be harder than I previously figured, now that I think about it.

Dude if m2k heard that every part of a stage was a ledge he would *** in his pants

 

[Samuch]

I wonder why they can't do it?

Same reason they don't have light sheilding. They still have to work within the limits of the brawl engine. They can't just do whatever they want.

 

[Litt]

Same reason they don't have light sheilding. They still have to work within the limits of the brawl engine. They can't just do whatever they want.

Ehhh with designing characters in relation to how the new introduced mechanics affect all movement options.... seems like the PMBR do whatever the **** they want

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Melee tethers are good but not broken and I think they'd be better than what we have right now. More balanced.

 

[pooch182]

Literally every person thinks that Melee tether is better. The problem is that it's such a meticulous task to make that a viable option, and PM is a mod with no external financing, and a team of unpaid programmers who just do this in their free time to give us a gift as a community. Melee tethers are superior, but they're also asking a lot from the Dev Team.

That being said, I really like how Chevy phrased it. Guarding Samus at the ledge feels very uninvolved. There's not much to think about, just grab the ledge and punish accordingly. The limitations are really damning for Samus compared to the other tether characters, because they have better means of recovery, and can protect themselves while recovering. Link and TL have bombs to AGT at the opponent for coverage, Lucas still has bull**** Lucas stuff, and Up B tether characters stopped being relevant pretty much entirely. But of the Z tethers, Samus really got the short end of the stick.

That all being said, it's our decision what we do with these new limitations. There are plenty of crazy ways to recover as Samus, and we need to figure out optimal recoveries on a case-by-case basis, now, as opposed to feeling safe with throwing out a tether every time. It makes us think harder, but the opponent think less. Honestly, it's a very hard balance to strike, the more I think about it. I'm mildly upset with the change, now that I'm sort of experiencing the shortcomings that it's causing, but I'll work around it in time, and it won't be much of a big deal in the long run.

 

[Chevy]

I've started doing b-reverse charge cancels before closing in on the stage to try and get some extra disjoint with b-air, hasn't worked out much yet, lol. It does open up grapple boost right away though, so maybe that is a decent mix-up if there's some platforms to choose from.

 

[pizzacato]

I've started doing b-reverse charge cancels before closing in on the stage to try and get some extra disjoint with b-air, hasn't worked out much yet, lol. It does open up grapple boost right away though, so maybe that is a decent mix-up if there's some platforms to choose from.

YESSS I've done this recently in the lab. B-reverse charge cancel -> bomb jump to regain retrograded horizontal distance -> rising grabble.
The only problem is that it is EXTREMELY readable, you're left without a ledge to opt for and in free fall. Extreme risk in the name of a mix up. Not even a really a medium reward. But I do want to condone it for at least once per month.

 

[pooch182]

It works well if you can threaten the bair and then hug close to the stage. I've done this in 3.02 effectively as a mix up on stages with platforms, and I use it like a mix up from UpB OoS. If they avoid the bair and punish the grapple with a meteor, you can just cancel into a screw attack and you're back, and if you get hit outwards, just DI up and start again.

 

[Litt]

It works well if you can threaten the bair and then hug close to the stage. I've done this in 3.02 effectively as a mix up on stages with platforms, and I use it like a mix up from UpB OoS. If they avoid the bair and punish the grapple with a meteor, you can just cancel into a screw attack and you're back, and if you get hit outwards, just DI up and start again.

Eh, personally, i like to just go old fashion melee where im around the height of where an up b would sweet spot and try my best to save my jump. If they come down to ledgeguard, they get up bed, if not, they i just use the grapple to safely get back. Havent played anyone actually good at the game to punish me yet though :/

Ive only almost been edgeguarded once, but they didnt understand my rising grapple wouldnt get me back on and hit me again anyway so I did recover, all on netplay though, so take it as you will.

 

[pooch182]

Super early up B is also really good if you're opponent is busy positioning themselves for an edgeguard. It can really catch them sleeping and get a bit of percent, and you can choose between ledge canceling and dropping to ledge or just going to stage, depending on the scenario.

 

[Litt]

Super early up B is also really good if you're opponent is busy positioning themselves for an edgeguard. It can really catch them sleeping and get a bit of percent, and you can choose between ledge canceling and dropping to ledge or just going to stage, depending on the scenario.

Yeah, ledge canceling the Up b is drastically easier in Pm than it is in melee, and the sweet spot is much more forgiving too

 

[pizzacato]

I love/hate how forgiving PM is.

 

[Litt]

I love/hate how forgiving PM is.

Same but more hate because it lowers the skill gap between good and great players

 

[Samuch]

I still have hope for Samus. The recovery nerf sucks total Donkey Kong **** but she still lives un

Same but more hate because it lowers the skill gap between good and great players

I'm a total noob, but it does disappoint me with how easy some of the things in PM compared to melee. I say just go the smash 4 route and make all the tech happen automatically! The game will only be truly balanced when everyone is at the same skill level! /s

 

[Litt]

I still have hope for Samus. The recovery nerf sucks total Donkey Kong **** but she still lives un

I'm a total noob, but it does disappoint me with how easy some of the things in PM compared to melee. I say just go the smash 4 route and make all the tech happen automatically! The game will only be truly balanced when everyone is at the same skill level! /s

How is a game balanced where the skill level to improve is non existent because of how self evident it is in the game? That what you are talking is a game designed for 3 year olds where there is no winner or loser... Take a game like ****ing tennis? what makes a good player? the ability to hit all shots, on top of natural athletic ability, the effort they put into Astana, and their experience of playing the game... what makes a good game fair is the potential for everyone to read the same level of skill, without each level being as easy to get to as the next, which weeds out the rest and makes a distinguishable factor for someone being... GOOD

 

[pooch182]

Barbie, I'm pretty sure he just forgot to throw a quick "/s" on the end of that for you.

 

[Samuch]

Barbie, I'm pretty sure he just forgot to throw a quick "/s" on the end of that for you.

Actually, there is a /s. Didn't edit either. ha.

Wasn't sure if he was attacking me, or responding to me. Hard to tell with Barbie.

 

[Litt]

Actually, there is a /s. Didn't edit either. ha.

Wasn't sure if he was attacking me, or responding to me. Hard to tell with Barbie.

Elaborating on my thoughts on the topic in general

 

[Mean Green]

I fight samus more than I use her, so I'm not sticking up for my main or anything. But I wouldn't mind if a 3.6 comes out soon where they undo some of the damage to her recovery. They kinda did go a bit overboard. Why the hell should anyone deserve a potentially free kill now, if they couldn't put in the work edge guarding samus before? Part of what they're doing here is essentially just dumbing down the game for nubs.