3.5 Link Discussion

[Thor]

your ability at projection is exceptional. i agree that @ E EmptySky00 is an idiot and can't make an argument in english, but you strawman much better than he ever could.

i agree that link players should stop *****ing and use what they got, but at the end of the day 3.5 link still sucks. he's just not good. will that hold players back? yes absolutely.

none of you seem to know what "objective" means. get on that.

lol at saying I don't know what objective means.

I already knew objective means independent of opinion/based on facts, which I said earlier and which is why 3.02 Puff > 3.5 Link is not objectively true, has not ever been objectively true, and never will be, as having a projectile may or may not be better, but the fact that you can't state it's objectively better or worse to have one means that Puff isn't objectively better. That's the only point I was making. I've also had to rant at too many people on these boards already about being bad at using that word incorrectly. In fact I've cited that definition Luis provided myself a few different times.

I haven't strawmanned a single thing he's said - EmptySky00 is deliberately taking things I said directly out of context in order to attempt to weaken my argument - I've done no such thing, but responded exactly to what he's stated. If you disagree, kindly point out what you think I'm strawmanning, so I may rectify the issue either by fixing what I did wrong or pointing out why it's not a strawman.

And yeah, playing a bad character holds people back a LITTLE, but being not-good-enough holds them back more. If someone with Professor Pro's skills played Link and sunk as much time into him as Professor Pro had into Snake, s/he'd be a top-level player [or even more time if you add in Melee Link - but I think guys like SAUS and Lootic don't have interest in PM Link despite him being better and the Melee top tiers being worse]. But when you can go to basically any video ever and find places where people could make better choices, it's clear that the blame for the loss is because the player simply wasn't good enough - they could've played better. A character causes your loss when you can't play any better than you did and you lose, otherwise it's a john because you'd rather think you're good enough to win and blame your choices at the CSS than improve. That's a pathetic mindset and is generally a great way to avoid actually improving in favor of whining, since whining is almost always easier than taking a hard look in the mirror.

EDIT: Either way, I'm outta here. This thread isn't doing anything for me in terms of advancing knowledge or having fun or w/e, and I'm not going to spend time typing these posts up, as it could be better spent playing to get better or doing homework or any number of other things.

[Tag me if you'd like to point the strawman out, I'll come back for that if you want.]

 

[Beorn]

lol at saying I don't know what objective means.

I already knew objective means independent of opinion/based on facts, which I said earlier and which is why 3.02 Puff > 3.5 Link is not objectively true, has not ever been objectively true, and never will be, as having a projectile may or may not be better, but the fact that you can't state it's objectively better or worse to have one means that Puff isn't objectively better. That's the only point I was making. I've also had to rant at too many people on these boards already about being bad at using that word incorrectly. In fact I've cited that definition Luis provided myself a few different times.

I haven't strawmanned a single thing he's said - EmptySky00 is deliberately taking things I said directly out of context in order to attempt to weaken my argument - I've done no such thing, but responded exactly to what he's stated. If you disagree, kindly point out what you think I'm strawmanning, so I may rectify the issue either by fixing what I did wrong or pointing out why it's not a strawman.

And yeah, playing a bad character holds people back a LITTLE, but being not-good-enough holds them back more. If someone with Professor Pro's skills played Link and sunk as much time into him as Professor Pro had into Snake, s/he'd be a top-level player [or even more time if you add in Melee Link - but I think guys like SAUS and Lootic don't have interest in PM Link despite him being better and the Melee top tiers being worse]. But when you can go to basically any video ever and find places where people could make better choices, it's clear that the blame for the loss is because the player simply wasn't good enough - they could've played better. A character causes your loss when you can't play any better than you did and you lose, otherwise it's a john because you'd rather think you're good enough to win and blame your choices at the CSS than improve. That's a pathetic mindset and is generally a great way to avoid actually improving in favor of whining, since whining is almost always easier than taking a hard look in the mirror.

EDIT: Either way, I'm outta here. This thread isn't doing anything for me in terms of advancing knowledge or having fun or w/e, and I'm not going to spend time typing these posts up, as it could be better spent playing to get better or doing homework or any number of other things.

[Tag me if you'd like to point the strawman out, I'll come back for that if you want.]

I'm sorry dude, but you are acting like tiers aren't all that important. When they are. This isn't about link so much as about competitive gaming in general. You say that if people like professor pro played link like he plays snake, link would be considered good. The fact is People that are good pick good characters because they want to win. Armada is a great example of this. As soon as he saw how hard pit was nerfed he stopped playing him at beast 5.
Look at lucas. Do you really think he would have been fleshed out by players like neon and pink fresh had he not been a stupid characters with ridiculous traits? I mean, you don't have to look any further than link to see this trend. Who even plays him anymore? So many people just strait dropped him when 3.5 came out.

If you want good players to play a character, you have to make that character good enough to warrant putting time into. Of course there are always people like Hylian that are good and want to prove a character is not bad by doing well with them, but that is a long and hard road that most people don't have the will power for.

 

[Thor]

I'm sorry dude, but you are acting like tiers aren't all that important. When they are. This isn't about link so much as about competitive gaming in general. You say that if people like professor pro played link like he plays snake, link would be considered good. The fact is People that are good pick good characters because they want to win. Armada is a great example of this. As soon as he saw how hard pit was nerfed he stopped playing him at beast 5.
Look at lucas. Do you really think he would have been fleshed out by players like neon and pink fresh had he not been a stupid characters with ridiculous traits? I mean, you don't have to look any further than link to see this trend. Who even plays him anymore? So many people just strait dropped him when 3.5 came out.

If you want good players to play a character, you have to make that character good enough to warrant putting time into. Of course there are always people like Hylian that are good and want to prove a character is not bad by doing well with them, but that is a long and hard road that most people don't have the will power for.

XD Pro said Snake lost like 20-something MUs as of 3.02, including vs Pit, Fox, Link, Lucas, and some others, and I can probably go find that post. He plays him anyway. Why? It's who he's best at/thinks gives him the best chance to win. Sure, those MUs may have been 55-45 or whatever, but if you lose to half the cast, then your character probably isn't a top character, even if he's pretty good. I don't think Link loses most MUs, hence why I've said I think he's like top 15 [and top 15 still leaves room for some losing MUs anyway].

Problem is, no one here's that good with Link. If someone of his skill felt they did best with Link and played and practiced as some of the best do, there would be a top-level Link. If one of the current highly skilled Melee-only Link players took some time and played him, they'd quickly become notable because the worst MUs in PM are so much easier than they are in Melee that it's kind of laughable to see people whine about how hard they are in PM.

Came back cuz I thought I was being tagged about the strawman thing, but I'll post this anyway since it only took like 3 minutes.

P.S: Tiers matter when they're accurate - here people throw around numbers and spots with no justifications whatsoever - the numbers in my head [and I'd guess some others who defend Link as fine] are different, hence why I come off as not caring about tiers - my tier list is different from yours, which is where this problem comes from.

 

[EmptySky00]

I thought I suggested actually talking about how to optimize 3.5 Link like twice now e_e Glad it's suddenly such a good and obvious idea. I think you people miss the point of me arguing this topic, but it's really not worth perpetuating it with an explanation. We should just move on from it and actually be productive.

I'm finding Uthrow Uair to be my go-to option out of a grab at low-mid percents. I also found that this does not work very well on Ness, in which case whomever mentioned Dthrow being good against him has credit for helping me immediately figure that one out. Link's best position is where he can abuse Up air. I think Uair and Fair are probably my favorite moves of his at the moment.
I'm actually actively keeping track of all the times I land Bair by saying out loud every time it either works or fails so my opponents are my witnesses regardless of how annoying they think it is, and Bair literally just fails to work how it should 95% of the time. I'm mostly just keeping a mental note of every time it works and keeping a general idea of how many times I note it failing. This isn't even an exaggeration. Tonight I probably landed about 25+ clean hits with it and I think it actually worked twice at best. This is when the first part of the move actually hits and they don't just CC it. So even though I get into situations where I want to use back air because it seems like a good option, I think steering clear of that move for the most part is optimal. Stfu Umbreon. In 3.02 the character surrounding the inconsistent move was far better so I think he was more capable of faking like the move was workable because of boomerang and other launchers that he had. But against most characters it isn't a good choice. Partially for the inconsistency factor, and partially because you don't really get that significant a bonus when it works either. I will say however that I like Bair on shield into double jump Nair to beat OoS options. Zair, while not nearly as good anymore imho, seems good against characters where you can pin them in a position where you can fish for the launch hitbox with minimal risk. Usually this is either against characters with bigger hurtboxes for easier launcher hits or with less mobility to hunt you down during the free 15 frames of advantage afterwards so you can get a shot at it with minimal commitment. Dash Attack is good/decent, but at any percent below like 60 when you land it your opponent can act before you because of reduced knockback and decreased IASA. It's good for catching people in the midst of an action because of the lunging motion.

One of my favorite conversions at low percents that puts Link in the aforementioned advantageous position is rang/something to make them shield from a safe position or something that hits them with minimal risk (so mostly rang) into DACUS. It keeps them honest in shield, even if it's a risk if they guess correctly and respect the option, if it hits it does a significant amount of damage that puts them out of crouch cancel percents where Link becomes much better. Mostly after they shield a boomerang I surmise they'll want to close the distance with a WD or jump OoS or something, and this hits them for it and tacks on a ton of damage with the subsequent Uair forever combo. A lot of characters have a hard time getting around this as I'm observing and it's something that should be exploited to its fullest extent.

 

[Big Chewy]

Ugh... I am so angry at the PMDT for nerfing link so hard . However what I do like about 3.5 link are his up airs, up smash and his d-tilt. His f-air, up-b and jabs are okay I guess but the rest of him is complete garbage. In 3.02 I loved his bair so much but now I can't seem to do anything with it anymore. When I am trying to edge guard people with my n-air it feels like I am helping people recover instead of attempting to kill them at low percents. Z-air ****ing sucks for recovery and spacing and all of his projectiles are less effective. Don't think I will ever in my life see a link win a semi-major tournament ever in project M 3 point nerf all characters except fox >

 

[Beorn]

Ugh... I am so angry at the PMDT for nerfing link so hard . However what I do like about 3.5 link are his up airs, up smash and his d-tilt. His f-air, up-b and jabs are okay I guess but the rest of him is complete garbage. In 3.02 I loved his bair so much but now I can't seem to do anything with it anymore. When I am trying to edge guard people with my n-air it feels like I am helping people recover instead of attempting to kill them at low percents. Z-air ****ing sucks for recovery and spacing and all of his projectiles are less effective. Don't think I will ever in my life see a link win a semi-major tournament ever in project M 3 point nerf all characters except fox >

No need to be angry at them man. They did what they thought was best. If it turns out that Link needs help I'm sure they will do a good job. Look at the majority of 3.5 breh.

 

[Big Chewy]

No need to be angry at them man. They did what they thought was best. If it turns out that Link needs help I'm sure they will do a good job. Look at the majority of 3.5 breh.

Ya man true true. Kind of sucks to considering I just started playing in tourneys just when 3.5 was just two weeks away from coming out. I am trying so hard to get better at the fox, sheik, Falco match ups, but they are just so hard for link dude, kind of funny those are the only three characters I've ever lost to in tourneys lol

 

[EmptySky00]

The sheik MU is hard as **** against a good Sheik. I live in a world where I only play against Umbreon, and I am currently seeking counseling over it. If you think getting death touched 4 times every time you play sounds appealing then you should play this asshat. I can only get a stock off of him when he's not trying or on an off day. Doesn't really speak well for me as a player, but that's the truth.

I'm not good at articulating MU information, but I play against Sheik in a way where I try to remain slippery with my good movement game and absolutely not allow her to get in on me because getting hit is the same as dying in many cases. Try to not get grabbed as much as you can and punish careless attacking with CC Dsmash or the like. You have to be very selective in the way you use projectiles because many times using them gives her an opportunity to get to you and kill you. Initially when we first started playing like 8ish months ago he would just run under my SH boomerang and kill me 4 times. Another thing is that when you get her offstage or in a bad position, you HAVE to kill her. I'm not perfect about this but I've been focusing on it more. She's a hell of a lot more dangerous to you than you are to her, so getting her offstage only to give her the ledge for free is like giving her a free extra stock. Edgehog and react if she goes onstage with SH Fair and Dair. You should actually react. In the past I've given up so many damn kills by trying to guess that he was going to go onstage as he just took the ledge. It's really not a good idea. In my experience when she gets in on my shield, OoS options are generally just stuffed with frame traps into a grab or something, so what I've started trying to do is watching for when she'll commit to an offensive option and rolling away then backing up and trying to keep my distance since it does me very little good to fight her close up due to the large disparity in lethality. You have to play to Sheik's weaknesses to the best of your ability as well. Abuse CC if you can, abuse her recovery, and abuse her lack of easy approaches.

With Fox and Falco you also have to kill them when you get them because of how much easier they can **** you up. You can still **** them up hard because they're spacies, but they have far better tools for initiating it. Practice edge guarding their recovery every time. Etc. I have less to say about this one. They're really hard but they can be done as I've done it successfully more than a few times.


I don't think anyone should quit Link and the sooner we get past the nerfs and start playing the character for what he is the better. I just wanted to make it abundantly clear that I thought a lot of the changes were unfair and unfounded and that nerfs were dealt out with an uneven hand. And also that I think he is DEFINITELY not good and pretending that he is isn't helping anything. But that was made clear a long time ago so lol. At the very least the asceticism that the nerfs force upon us will help us improve as players by letting us practice getting by with lesser options than before. If you can still make Link effective, in the future if he does get some buffs you'll just be way better off, and if not you'll be far better for it as a player.


Low hit Fair is really really good. It might be my most used move. I checked and unless I'm wrong with my frame data knowledge, Low hit Fair should still be +1 on shield. 14% damage 7 frame L-cancel? The formula spreadsheet Strong Bad or Magus or whomever made says that's +1. So ya. Also, Bair wasn't changed, he just got fewer options to fake that it's a usable move. But as long as you don't think it's a good anti-air you're probably fine.

 

[Big Chewy]

Yep that's why I am forcing myself to play Link, so in the next update he might be buffed with hopefully the rest of the cast that needs buffing. I really do love links f-air in every smash game especially connecting the two hits of it, also the short hop L-canceled F-air is great as well. Its still good in 3.5 but it was better in 3.02 being a better kill move with crazy power and knockback. Also does link have a chain grab on spacies? because I managed to continuously up throw fox at low percents, not sure if my opponent could of got out of it.

 

[EmptySky00]

Fair shouldn't be that much weaker. I'm not sure how the values translate to the actual game, with the loss of 1% damage but the increase of KBG(?). It seems good still I think. I assume the change was intended to be a nerf. Like almost literally everything else. I haven't personally tested out his spacie chain grab percents, but it's different than it was before because of the release points. It should work?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

So for AGT, do we simply just AGT the bomb up and not up b into it like before? So AGT bomb up/forward and then up b towards ledge? I guess that works, but really makes his recovery meh.

 

[EmptySky00]

His recovery is very meh. I'm more ok with that than I am with most of the other changes however. He still has options at the very least.
You bomb jump exactly like in Melee, and AGT up can be used for a more moderate recovery boost. You *can* get the bomb jump out of AGT, but it's horribly, horribly inconsistent and every time I get it I get thrown backwards into the blast zone because I'm trying to hit the bomb with the last swing so the explosion ends up happening in front of me.

While recovering with AGT, I tend to throw the bomb at the ledge so that it makes it harder for my opponent to edge hog me.

 

[Beorn]

So for AGT, do we simply just AGT the bomb up and not up b into it like before? So AGT bomb up/forward and then up b towards ledge? I guess that works, but really makes his recovery meh.

The easiest way to bomb just now is to agt in place (no directional input) then spin attack and hit with the last hit. This method on works if you have not up-bed anything or anyone, onstage or off.

It's generally better to just agt the bomb at the stage and recovery like you can't bomb jump.

The other way to bomb jump is to agt up and spin directly into it. This is very unstable but works some times.

 

[EmptySky00]

I never thought of doing it in place..

The staling is such a stupid restriction. Meanwhile in snake and samus land.

I wish it worked like in melee at least.

 

[Hylian]

Here are some matches of me playing Link vs top PM players if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVCOIt6h_8I&t=14m51s

 

[jtm94]

Why does Link's bair suck so much? So many other multihits connect so much better, but his is so god awful it seems incredibly inconsistent. It would be fine if the first hit of bair had a little more BKB and no KBG, but it has near 0 BKB so it works incredible poorly at low %s because the first hit doesn't hit high enough resulting in the second kick missing completely. At higher %s the first hit straight launches them at an incredibly inconvenient angle.

I would understand if the first hit being stray were useful, but without them both connecting you have to space for the second hit which takes longer for the hitbox to hit them literally making it useless. I was using random characters and I got Link and I really can't find a use for bair because it barely works or leads into much. We have moves like GnW bair, Kirby's fair, Marth's nair, Snake's nair, and ZSS's/Falcon's fair/nair which are essentially the SAME move and ZSS's fair connects at 999% while Falcon's stops working at like 250%. This is on no DI, but having DI will only exasperate the way the hits don't connect and Link's bair hits them away at 50%.

I suggest that either the first hitbox be given a little more BKB and less/no KBG or make the second hit come out faster, but alter it in a way so that follow ups are the same. It could come out faster, but do like 2% more damage so it had more hitstun, less KBG and then have the first hit do 2% less to maintain the overall 14% damage output. It just seems like such an oversight on the PMDT's part that they wouldn't fix his move to work the way it was intended when they have done so for every other character in the cast.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Here are some matches of me playing Link vs top PM players if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVCOIt6h_8I&t=14m51s

WOW, Link's dsmash looks amazing. That first game against Sethlon made me want to pick this character up.

Why does Link's bair suck so much?

It doesn't suck, from what I can tell. Hell, you can shorthop bair waveland.


I mean, I don't know anything. Uh, sorry for intruding. Is @ Hylian the only surviving good Link?

EDIT: Also, what do you guys think about the Marth, Roy, ROB matchups?

 

[EmptySky00]

SH bair wave land doesn't make the move good if it doesn't even connect properly.

 

[Feral Cadence]

Why the hell does the Buffalo scene think Link is top tier in 3.5? Is he a noob slayer or something? Most of them suck at PM, because they're Melee elitists, but still.

 

[EmptySky00]

Melee elitists don't have the right to an opinion. Fox is bad in P:M. /lol

Link is a decent noob slayer, yes.

Marth is a better one. God it's so fun to just kill them on a whim. Let's talk about Marth and his hair-styling techniques.

I think Marth vs Link is about even. I think Roy beats Link however. Maybe not by much, but Roy is a fair bit better than Marth and it at least feels much more difficult.

I'll elaborate since I have some free time... I think the main challenge of this MU for me is playing around Roy's absurd crouch game and his general immunity to you doing it back to him. He hits really hard and can kill you fairly easily if he actually gets you into a bad position. His recovery is exceedingly non-interactive and hard to edge guard, while the same can't be said for Link's. One of my main problems is that projectiles doesn't get me very far because he can just duck under boomerang and so on or dash up to me and shield like Marth can. But if I try to actually attack him and he crouches, he can Dtilt and exploit my ****ty combo weight with his amazing combo game. I mean, I can play the keep-away game because I'm pretty good at it, but I think input vs output is skewed greatly because I don't get much out of it, and it's hard to set up a scenario where I can actually attack him without fear of trading (his moves are far better than mine), getting beaten out, or getting crouched to death. With that being said I may just suck at the Matchup, so if anyone else has a different evaluation of the matchup I'd be glad to hear it. Next time I play against a proficient Roy, I'll be sure to try and apply it.

 

[Thor]

Why the hell does the Buffalo scene think Link is top tier in 3.5? Is he a noob slayer or something? Most of them suck at PM, because they're Melee elitists, but still.

I've convinced people in my local area that Link is top tier [not by discussing MUs, but just by beating up people high on the PR]. Currently I'm 4th on the PM PR and I'm easily the least technical player on it. [I don't even wavedash, unless you count ledgedashs, and I basically only do those either super slow [when I would do an aerial, I waveland into whatever] or when I still have hookshot so that I get a get-out-of-jail free card if I screw up - and I'm picking up haxdashing a little (unfortunately slow ones that are not invinicible as of now) so that I can get better both at the regular one (by extension) and so that if I can do a slow haxdash once in a while, I can more safely do a quick waveland into whatever.] I told people at a smashfest that people in here think he's bottom 10 and most people were like "He's gotta be at least high tier." Apparently people in MN and North Dakota feel similarly (begging the question "Who cares?" I'm sure).

I'm also convinced Link is good, but I don't feel like going into that [again].

Nice gameplay Hylian.

Fsmash is hilarious versus Roy - unlike Marth his ability to punish spaced fsmash1 is pretty bad as far as I've seen (he can swing a wet noodle at you [fsmash], or else he tries to jump it, and if he jumps too low, swing away, if he goes with the fullhop I'm pretty sure you just get to shield as he lands - his best option is probably a wavedash OoS or after a CC but if you read that you still can get the second hit, and that's the obvious option so you should be alert for it). And if he CCs it, unless he's at almost literally zero, you just press A and boom, he's knocked away with 30% on him.

Z-dropping bombs is good vs Roy's recovery, so is rang if your aim is good and trying to arrow him if he's high up. Beyond that, it is hard to interact with, but you can also invincible ledgestall through it if you're really good and have good timing to ledgehog (it's not easy, especially with the ledge grab limit [5 times and then almost no I-frames] but it's doable - for someone better at that sort of thing). If he goes super low and you're tied or in the lead by a stock, you can also just quickly SH dair and he has to blazer into your face, much like how DK must spinning kong into your blade - it's dumb and kind of gimmicky, but works like a z-dropped bomb with a much more satisfying damage output. I try to run and nair him way out there when I can, and otherwise get some projectiles in hand to either hit him as he's using blazer or to make it harder to get onstage.

Throw rang angled down (standing or from shorthops) or throw it up as an explicit anti-air and cover the ground with bombs, arrows, and your sword (Easier said than done, I know). Ducking rang is good for him but it's not nearly as hard to hit him with it as Kirby.

Also, I think dtilt can blow up CCs at like 20% or so, and dsmash around 40% or earlier (not certain though, you should test that [I have no setup on me, see above]). Not terribly easy to land either of them (dsmash isn't THAT hard, but dtilt sort of is], but it does mean you have to do less work with projectiles to get him to the point where you can approach and start a combo without constantly using projectiles [at least at those percents].

 

[egumption]

I would agree that Link is still pretty underrated in the meta. Definitely not bottom 7-10, but around middle tier, maybe at the bottom of high-mid tier if someone's ambitious. Granted, I'm pretty casual (basically play my roommates and a group of friends), but Link is exceptionally easy to pick up (which helps), but I feel like Link has a lot of control options still available to him (even with the nerfs).

I will say that I can buy into the "Link as noobslayer" hype. If you can get a solid read, a Spin2Win clears house 75%+ and edgeguards like insane if your opponents can't sweetspot the ledge (usually a trademark of noobs). Combine that with an ability to mix up the game with an assortment of projectiles, bomb game, and some decent combo potential, I think he's definitely a noobslayer. Anyone with a deeper understanding of the game will be able to punish portions of Link's moveset, which limits his potential, but at lower skill levels it's definitely easy to make Link look like a worldbeater.

Apparently as a nub, I can't post links, but if you search on youtube for "VS Weekly 01/22/15 - Winners R4 - Westballz (Falco/Fox) vs Red 1 (Link) - Project M", Red1 has a great Link. Granted, I don't know how polished Westballz is in PM, but he kinda loses pretty hard in that set (in my opinion). And, at least according to the accompanying reddit thread (search "westballz red1" in reddit's search), Red1 said they played again in the Losers Finals, Westballz went Sheik/Fox, and still lost to Red1's Link. So either Red1 is that good, or Link is better than people have expected. Probably both.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I've convinced people in my local area that Link is top tier [not by discussing MUs, but just by beating up people high on the PR]. Currently I'm 4th on the PM PR and I'm easily the least technical player on it.

I don't mean to troll or disrespect when I say this, but I am going to call you out as politely as I can. So I've seen your play, and I'm thoroughly convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. You do nothing that my training partner doesn't do, and to be quite honest, he does it better. If you're the 4th on your PM PR I'd really like to go to your region and take that free money.

 

[Thor]

I don't mean to troll or disrespect when I say this, but I am going to call you out as politely as I can. So I've seen your play, and I'm thoroughly convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. You do nothing that my training partner doesn't do, and to be quite honest, he does it better. If you're the 4th on your PM PR I'd really like to go to your region and take that free money.

Free money? Ripple would like a word with you.

Beyond that, possibly? People here seem to be kind of bad at dealing with projectiles that aren't Melee top tier and I guess pills and PK Freeze/Fire [yes those are different characters]. I exploit that as much as possible.

I'm also curious when you saw my play, because I improved a fair bit since HoP II [or the one video of me vs DK when I'd literally never played a semi-competent DK before], the last things to go up on Youtube (and beforehand, I was much much lower on the PR - I made a big leap since I beat up a bunch of people on the PR after break and won the tournament where that happened). Prior to that event, I'd usually end up in like 13th or maybe 9th.

Also we only tend to have local monthlies and Dart! and [I think it's Andale, but it's spelled AnDaLe so it might be someone else] and some other pretty good players [DeliciousOctorok and Metroid are two that come to mind] seem to drop by more often than not. But they aren't on the PR because they haven't made the required minimum tournaments (lol). So I'd guess if they keep showing up I fall way off (w/e).

EDIT: I'd be interested in playing you more anyway - I really enjoyg people who are good, since they're fun [if hard] to play against and they help me improve - and most people are pretty nice, so if you're ever in the area, please do stop by.

Also there's a tournament tomorrow [with the people above except maybe Metroid in attendance] so we'll see how that goes...

 

[Ripple]

champaign can't even win its own locals.

 

[Thor]

champaign can't even win its own locals.

How is it you always show up when I mention your name? I'm not even tagging you XD.

But yeah, basically. The Melee tournaments are won by locals, but for PM we either count Ripple as a local or have only won two locals [which were small and Ripple wasn't there].

I can link that footage if you want Mr. Pickles, but I doubt you'd care (and I look better, but I don't think it'd be enough to change your mind).

On the other side of things, I'd be interested in seeing footage of your training partner. Can you provide links to vids and/or his/her tag? I enjoy watching other Links play to see what I can implement and also see if stuff they do indicates flaws in my own game I need to iron out [besides the obvious problems I know I face].

 

[Mr.Pickle]

@ Thor - Oh I didn't know ripple was in your area, yo ripple lol. I'll take back my statement of "free money", but I'm fairly confident I could beat him, not guaranteeing it but we'll see what happens. I have a lot of d3 experience because of KOkingpin, and I've actually beat it the last couple times, so I have that. As for where I've seen your vids, anything you've posted recently in the link video thread I've seen. I like getting exposed to other regions good players, so I'd definitely enjoy some matches if I'm ever in the area. I'd also really like to see your improvement, but if you do a buster move and switch to falco again I'll be disappointed lol.

Also I'm sure it would be good for you to get exposed to the wario matchup since a couple of people have been picking him up recently, and that is definitely one of link's harder matchups.

Uhhhh there is some footage of him, but idk if it will ever get uploaded, I need to ask about that. You can link me the footage, I don't mind a chance of you trying to change my opinion.

 

[Beorn]

How is it you always show up when I mention your name? I'm not even tagging you XD.

But yeah, basically. The Melee tournaments are won by locals, but for PM we either count Ripple as a local or have only won two locals [which were small and Ripple wasn't there].

I can link that footage if you want Mr. Pickles, but I doubt you'd care (and I look better, but I don't think it'd be enough to change your mind).

On the other side of things, I'd be interested in seeing footage of your training partner. Can you provide links to vids and/or his/her tag? I enjoy watching other Links play to see what I can implement and also see if stuff they do indicates flaws in my own game I need to iron out [besides the obvious problems I know I face].

I'm his training partner. I don't have any videos, so take that as you will. I can't disagree with anything pickle has said up to this point though. I just don't go in for call outs, because I have no videos to back my claims. I just like to hang out and play good players like pickle, instead of going to events. Sometimes I come out to support PM's scene though. I do love this game.

Pickle....THE CALL OUT

That is all.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Lol calling me to see this, funny gif though. I mean to be fair, I wouldn't call it a call out, I was super polite about it. Though I stand by what I said... so I guess shots have been fired. I'm looking at the last score tourney, cause you're in there, hopefully the video is alright and not super janky. Also I got to figure my streaming stuff, cause I want to show the people the wario vs link shenanigans.

 

[Beorn]

Lol calling me to see this, funny gif though. I mean to be fair, I wouldn't call it a call out, I was super polite about it. Though I stand by what I said... so I guess shots have been fired. I'm looking at the last score tourney, cause you're in there, hopefully the video is alright and not super janky. Also I got to figure my streaming stuff, cause I want to show the people the wario vs link shenanigans.

Yeah, dude, Pickle and Friends needs to happen.

Not to John or anything, but I was hella drunk on whine that entire score lol. So yeh johns.

 

[Thor]

@ Thor - Oh I didn't know ripple was in your area, yo ripple lol. I'll take back my statement of "free money", but I'm fairly confident I could beat him, not guaranteeing it but we'll see what happens. I have a lot of d3 experience because of KOkingpin, and I've actually beat it the last couple times, so I have that. As for where I've seen your vids, anything you've posted recently in the link video thread I've seen. I like getting exposed to other regions good players, so I'd definitely enjoy some matches if I'm ever in the area. I'd also really like to see your improvement, but if you do a buster move and switch to falco again I'll be disappointed lol.

Also I'm sure it would be good for you to get exposed to the wario matchup since a couple of people have been picking him up recently, and that is definitely one of link's harder matchups.

Uhhhh there is some footage of him, but idk if it will ever get uploaded, I need to ask about that. You can link me the footage, I don't mind a chance of you trying to change my opinion.

I've played one Wario in the area, but my Falco can keep up with him so that probably doesn't count.

Also my Lucario is more likely to come out than my Falco except against a few people around here who only play Project M and so have no spacie experience (the only Mewtwo we have here is one such player, so my Falco tends to beat him XD). Even then, I usually only bring either of them out when I'm going to a small stage.

The videos I referenced I'd planned to link but they were uploaded only on Twitch and so I never linked them on that thread. I still struggle somewhat against Falcon and I hate that MU on FD, so even watching Winner's Semis I'm surprised I overcame the MU [or rather surprised my opponent choked as hard as he did, probably since uthrow -> knee stopped working when I had enough percent on me]).

Warning: Frame rate on some sucks and the commentary sucks significantly worse. Muting it isn't necessarily a bad idea.

http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920589
http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920489 [this is mislabeled as Winner's Finals, it's winner's semis]
http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920690

Your training partner is likely better than me, but I'm still getting better (though the [not that large] jump I took from HoP II and ChampaignSHPE 3 to here is larger than from this time to now, but I'm still fixing stuff and working to imrpove).

Also some of the dash attacks at low percents were whiffed DACUS attempts, and others were bad decision-making. And there was one or two dairs that were whiffed fast-fall nairs [lolololol they look hilariously stupid, notably vs Falcon at 2:20 in the video that's mislabeled]. There's other stupid stuff I do here I'm fixing [namely my challenging invincible Falcon on ledge >_>] but I seek to be recorded [even at my worst... me and Matt R is still painful to watch] in order to continue seeing where I can improve, etc.

Also if either of you care to provide feedback, feel free - critques usually help me improve my game some.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'll get to it tomorrow, I got a smash fest to go to now, but lol at the call out on the commentary. We had some bad commentary at our last tourney, so I know the struggle. Feedback and critique coming soon.

 

[Beorn]

I've played one Wario in the area, but my Falco can keep up with him so that probably doesn't count.

Also my Lucario is more likely to come out than my Falco except against a few people around here who only play Project M and so have no spacie experience (the only Mewtwo we have here is one such player, so my Falco tends to beat him XD). Even then, I usually only bring either of them out when I'm going to a small stage.

The videos I referenced I'd planned to link but they were uploaded only on Twitch and so I never linked them on that thread. I still struggle somewhat against Falcon and I hate that MU on FD, so even watching Winner's Semis I'm surprised I overcame the MU [or rather surprised my opponent choked as hard as he did, probably since uthrow -> knee stopped working when I had enough percent on me]).

Warning: Frame rate on some sucks and the commentary sucks significantly worse. Muting it isn't necessarily a bad idea.

http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920589
http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920489 [this is mislabeled as Winner's Finals, it's winner's semis]
http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/5920690

Your training partner is likely better than me, but I'm still getting better (though the [not that large] jump I took from HoP II and ChampaignSHPE 3 to here is larger than from this time to now, but I'm still fixing stuff and working to imrpove).

Also some of the dash attacks at low percents were whiffed DACUS attempts, and others were bad decision-making. And there was one or two dairs that were whiffed fast-fall nairs [lolololol they look hilariously stupid, notably vs Falcon at 2:20 in the video that's mislabeled]. There's other stupid stuff I do here I'm fixing [namely my challenging invincible Falcon on ledge >_>] but I seek to be recorded [even at my worst... me and Matt R is still painful to watch] in order to continue seeing where I can improve, etc.

Also if either of you care to provide feedback, feel free - critques usually help me improve my game some.

Hey dude, Pickle and I aren't trying to hate on you. Your Link is getting better and you did some nice stuff in the vids I've seen.

The reason Pickle said anything, is because you are consistently one of the few people that is convinced Link is not bad. You even claim that he is high tier. That is when we bring your play into question. You have argued many times with not just me, but other players that understand the game and matchups better than you currently do.
You can't keep hitting people with slow falled weak hit nairs and getting randy kills setups because the people you are playing don't know what they are doing in the matchup, then claim Link is a great character.

I've argued with you on too many occasions in this thread. Until I see you understand Link and his matchups better I can't take you seriously in the discussion of Links viability. I'm not asking you to take me seriously I don't have any evidence of my play, but I ask you to listen to the other obviously better players in this and other threads. Hylian is the only respectable link player that I have seen say Link is not at least mediocre. Link needs help currently, and the less resistance from noob slaying/ noob slane mid level players the better. People that can't recovery properly or deal with projectiles are going to feel like Link is good. This has been true since melee.

I love that you are playing the character and trying to get better at the game. Going to tournaments and supporting the scene. That's awesome and we need more people doing what you are doing. I just don't want a repeat of 3.02 to 3.5 in terms of Links viability. Link got hit too hard and should not just be left as is.

I'm gonna finish watching your current vids and give some feed back when I get back from work, dude.

 

[Hylian]

@ Thor - Oh I didn't know ripple was in your area, yo ripple lol. I'll take back my statement of "free money", but I'm fairly confident I could beat him, not guaranteeing it but we'll see what happens. I have a lot of d3 experience because of KOkingpin, and I've actually beat it the last couple times, so I have that. As for where I've seen your vids, anything you've posted recently in the link video thread I've seen. I like getting exposed to other regions good players, so I'd definitely enjoy some matches if I'm ever in the area. I'd also really like to see your improvement, but if you do a buster move and switch to falco again I'll be disappointed lol.

Also I'm sure it would be good for you to get exposed to the wario matchup since a couple of people have been picking him up recently, and that is definitely one of link's harder matchups.

Uhhhh there is some footage of him, but idk if it will ever get uploaded, I need to ask about that. You can link me the footage, I don't mind a chance of you trying to change my opinion.

Pretty sure you can beat Ripple? What top players do you have experience against? I've got $100 on ripple with 4-1 odds, who want's to take me up on that?

Edit: This is friendly trash talk, I actually have no clue how good you are hah. Ripple I think is far better than other DDD's however.

 

[Beorn]

Pretty sure you can beat Ripple? What top players do you have experience against? I've got $100 on ripple with 4-1 odds, who want's to take me up on that?

Edit: This is friendly trash talk, I actually have no clue how good you are hah. Ripple I think is far better than other DDD's however.

Pretty sure he thinks he can because he has?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Pretty sure you can beat Ripple? What top players do you have experience against? I've got $100 on ripple with 4-1 odds, who want's to take me up on that?

Edit: This is friendly trash talk, I actually have no clue how good you are hah. Ripple I think is far better than other DDD's however.

I go pretty even against Iori (always game 5) and pikachad, I've beaten soft, KOkingpin, joot, pb&j (probably not a huge deal), hbox, and took a game off sethlon. I didn't play ripple at the show me your moves tournament I went too, I forget the number, but alex did, and he won, but I beat alex so what does that tell you. To be fair though, that was a while ago, so I'm not going to count that.

If you wanna throw money at this I don't mind, I just want to play the dude, or you since you got your wallet out, we can take this one step further. Since I'm extremely confident that I wont lose to a link, EVER, lets put another 100 down on a money match between me and you. I promise that you won't get more than two stocks off me.

Friendly trash talk continues lol.

 

[Hylian]

I go pretty even against Iori (always game 5) and pikachad, I've beaten soft, KOkingpin, joot, pb&j (probably not a huge deal), hbox, and took a game off sethlon. I didn't play ripple at the show me your moves tournament I went too, I forget the number, but alex did, and he won, but I beat alex so what does that tell you. To be fair though, that was a while ago, so I'm not going to count that.

If you wanna throw money at this I don't mind, I just want to play the dude, or you since you got your wallet out, we can take this one step further. Since I'm extremely confident that I wont lose to a link, EVER, lets put another 100 down on a money match between me and you. I promise that you won't get more than two stocks off me.

Friendly trash talk continues lol.

I'll entertain the idea if we ever go to the same tournament. Would it be Link vs Wario? Link is like my 5th best character so throwing $100 on him seems eh but I might do it anyways just for fun . I do enjoy playing against wario though .

 

[Thor]

The only set on stream I played yesterday I got destroyed by DeliciousOctorok, because I can't neutral game vs Ness [and I also had a headache]. I did meet Italian Ninja (or however it's spelled) and he gave me some advice for that MU so I'll be working on that. When we hit in bracket, I lost 2-1 [we were unable to be on stream for that], and he gave me more advice after that about playing Link, so hopefully I can step it up further.

Would be interested to watch this MM if it occurred. Hylian, who are your characters that are better than Link [besides ICs]?

 

[Hylian]

The only set on stream I played yesterday I got destroyed by DeliciousOctorok, because I can't neutral game vs Ness [and I also had a headache]. I did meet Italian Ninja (or however it's spelled) and he gave me some advice for that MU so I'll be working on that. When we hit in bracket, I lost 2-1 [we were unable to be on stream for that], and he gave me more advice after that about playing Link, so hopefully I can step it up further.

Would be interested to watch this MM if it occurred. Hylian, who are your characters that are better than Link [besides ICs]?

Ic's/Lucario/Fox/Mario

 

[Player -0]

The only set on stream I played yesterday I got destroyed by DeliciousOctorok, because I can't neutral game vs Ness [and I also had a headache]. I did meet Italian Ninja (or however it's spelled) and he gave me some advice for that MU so I'll be working on that. When we hit in bracket, I lost 2-1 [we were unable to be on stream for that], and he gave me more advice after that about playing Link, so hopefully I can step it up further.

Would be interested to watch this MM if it occurred. Hylian, who are your characters that are better than Link [besides ICs]?

Ness can't pressure that hard. If he's jumping in the air, adjust positioning so a diagonal PKF won't hit you. I'm sure that there are videos on youtube. If not I can try to get some of me vs. my friend (assuming this is Link vs. Ness).