3.5 Link Discussion

[Chesstiger2612]

What would you suggest @Umbreon

 

[Deleted member]

personally i thought 3.02 link would have been fine with a nerf to the boomerang, particularly the angle since it punished the slower characters so hard for approaching with aerials (think peach FC fair). i was never under the impression that 3.02 link was too good.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I also think so. He was wrecking a mass of mid-level players but those who lose to him should learn the matchup.
What annoys me too is that Toon Link's boomerang was buffed and Link's was nerfed, which felt like a recloning (it is ok from a balance perspective, but I have a personal bias against it).

 

[EmptySky00]

Fish for Fair hits for all eternity and throw **** until they **** up.

I don't like the varying hitbox on Dsmash because all that does is make it unnecessarily difficult to get the function you want out of it, which is more often breaking CC or killing than comboing with a weak hit. When I use Dsmash I'm not trying to hit them for 13 and get a mediocre combo. I use other moves for that. And the move isn't like Marth's Fsmash where you can place it easily and it goes in a sweeping motion all in front of him to aid that. It's a gtfo move or an option out of CC so making the hitbox inconsistent is just an annoyance.

 

[EmptySky00]

edit: ignore accidental double post

 

[Beorn]

If any of you guys have played Melee sd remix... THAT link is amazing. Maybe too amazing, but he made so much sense. They kept links weaknesses, but made him an actual hard hitting zoner. He is probably my favorite version of link in any game. His ftilt was pretty jank though... lol
A lot of the things done to him in sd remix overlap with PM hes just better in a few areas and ridiculous in others.

Here is his change list


Friction0.1 -> 0.08
Jump Startup Lag6 -> 5
Initial Dash Velocity1.3 -> 1.4
Moves
NAMESPEEDDAMAGEKNOCKBACKOTHER
Counter Slash
Neutral Attack
From Slash

Made like Brawl's Version
Stab
Neutral Attack
From Counter Slash

6 -> 5BASE: 10 -> 50
GROW: 100 -> 70
ANGLE: 361 -> 30
Sword Chop
Forward Tilt

START: 16 -> 11BASE: 5 -> 20
ANGLE: 361 -> 30
Half-Moon Swipe
Up Tilt

IASA: 32 -> 309 -> 13BASE: 30 -> 38
GROW: +?
Grass Cutter
Down Tilt

START: 14 -> 9Outermost hitbox meteor smashes
Running Hack
Dash Attack
Run

IASA: 40 -> 36BASE: 10 -> 65
GROW: 100 -> 55
Sword Slice
Forward Smash

IASA: 50 -> 40GROW: +10 (at KO %)
Triple Sword Swipe
Up Smash

"Should connect better"
"Too confusing to post new stats"
Sword Sweep
Down Smash

13 -> 14 (first hit)
11 -> 16 (second hit)
Hylian Kick
Neutral Aerial
Air

9 -> 13 (clean)Late hit start frame: 6 -> 8
Spinning Sword
Forward Aerial
Air

13 -> 14 (first hit)BASE: 5 -> 25 (first hit)
BASE: 0 -> 30 (second hit)
GROW: 90 -> 100 (second hit)
ANGLE: 361 -> 25 (second hit)No pause between hitboxes
Second hit start frame: 30 -> 24
Double Kick
Backward Aerial
Air

ANGLE: 361 -> 72 (first hit)Second hit hitboxes slightly larger
Stab-Up
Up Aerial
Air

GROW: 85 -> 95
Sword Plant
Down Aerial
Air

GROW: 80 -> 90 (initial impact)
Hookshot
Grab

Can grab airborne opponents
Dash Hookshot
Dash Grab
Run

Can grab airborne opponents
Kick Out
Forward Throw
From Grab

3 -> 6BASE: 25 -> 50
GROW: 110 -> 80
ANGLE: 55 -> 35
Reverse Kick Out
Backward Throw
From Grab

3 -> 6BASE: 24 -> 51
GROW: 110 -> 86
Sword Launch
Up Throw
From Grab

2 -> 3BASE: 24 -> 50
GROW: 230 -> 90
ANGLE: 90 -> 80
Bow
Neutral Special

BASE: 8 -> 16
GROW: 50 -> 80
ANGLE: 70 -> 361Hitboxes slightly larger
Uncharged velocity: 1.3 -> 2.0
Charged velocity: 5.0 -> 7.5
Boomerang
Side Special

START: 27 -> 226 -> 8ANGLE: 65 -> 140"Phantom" boomerang sends vertically
Aerial Spin Attack
Aerial Up Special
Air

4 -> 6 (final hit)
Bomb
Down Special

IASA: 39 -> 34 (bomb pull)4 -> 6
Backward Roll
Backward Roll

/

IASA: 37 -> 31

 

[Thor]

heh

ok so i havent read this thread in a while, so a few things.

comparing link dsmash to 3.02 mario dsmash is not the way to go. i agree that the opponent shouldnt live it at 180 like i do all the time, but old mario dsmash obliterated your character at 60% and killed your family. not a good source of comparison.

even though i think link is slightly workable, i still think hes bottom 3. actually id say the only character clearly worse than link is olimar, and lets be honest olimar is unplayable. i still think link is a potato in a cast full of great characters and is relatively way worse than melee link (who was atrocious, but still technically "mid tier").

if this character has to grab to get a kill youre in a lot of trouble

Even if you think Link loses literally every MU in the game, losing every MU in the game 60-40 or 65-35 is much better than being 70-30 or 80-20 vs the 3 most important characters in the game. (Some Link mains actually think the MUs in Melee are around 70-30 or 60-40, and a few think MUs are even 50-50, but I think that's because they're insanely practiced in the MUs and have thought optimum punishes for so much and execute so well it's scary - I think 70-30 is accurate if a bit generous for most of those MUs, but it's possible they're 80-20 or maybe worse and I just overestimate my lack of skill playing them [and then also underestimate how good the Link mains really are to make the MUs look close, and they'd also have to underestimate that to put out the values I've seen]).

I'm still not convinced this character is bad. I won a tournament with him recently [first time getting 1st in any event] - I had to fight a Lucario (2-0), Lucas/Sheik (2-1, he CP'd Sheik game 2 and I SD'd at 8% stock one but took him to last stock + percent anyway), Mewtwo/Sheik (2-0), Falcon/Bowser (2-1, I lost game 1 to Falcon, I have no idea why he CP'd Bowser when I was on Norfair ), Yoshi/Charizard/Peach (3-0, he tried all his characters, they all failed), and the Lucas/Sheik player (3-1, he only played Lucas and won game 1 but I beat him on Smashville and his CPs twice). I will put links to Youtube videos in the PM Link video thread when they are uploaded if people are interested (the people I fought on stream are the last 3 of the list and fairly solid at the game - I'm convinced the guy I played in winner's semis [Falcon Bowser] quit trying partway through game 3, and the Lucas knows his stuff. The guy who went 3 characters I think finds me tricky to fight since I'm still learning those MUs and started to pick up on stuff as the fight sprogressed, which I think left him feeling less effective as a game progressed, hence his copious switching).

Playing vs Falco, Fox, Falcon, and Sheik is easier in neutral compared to Melee (or it certainly feels that way to me - they have weaker tools, ours are stronger) and the punish game is probably easier to execute (better hitboxes on some moves, notably utilt and usmash, gives more margin for error). I'd love to see SAUS, Lootic, or the Germ [or another good Link main, I know these 3 are active or were very recently] to play this game, but I can respect (what I assume to be) their desire to focus on continuing to optimize Link in Melee and not mess up their Melee Links (I can transition rather effectively between Smash games - playing Melee, Brawl, PM, Brawl Minus, Smash 4 Wii U, Smash 4 3DS, and 64 at various times, but I admit I'd probably be better at one of those games if I only played just one.)

I still think Link is top half of the cast. He has an incredibly flexible zoning game, strong aerials, and a highly useful jab that let him both play keep away and also gives him a decent rushdown game(though it usually requires some stage control first, or else a small stage).

If it turns out he really is bottom 3, well, I won a tournament with a bottom tier. Guess that should just add to the feeling of accomplishment?

 

[J3f]

Link now has 70-30 and 80-20 against the 3 most important characters in the game (i.e. Fox, Falco, Shiek), where before they used to be 60-40 and even 50-50 to 40-60. He also goes 60-40 to 70-30 with most of the cast now. He's definitely bottom half of the cast, I'd place him a little higher up umbreon, bottom 10, but he's still terrible.

In a tier list where you lose most of your match-ups, you aren't considered top half.

My problem with relying on Jab is it doesn't really convert into anything. Jab, Jab, Spin-attack works against some people, but it's still crouch cancellable. I don't see how you can use Jab to rushdown, at best it resets to neutral.

 

[Beta_Smash]

I'm liking 3.5 Link so far, he's nowhere near as good as he was in 3.0 though. He feels like Melee Link which is perfectly okay to me he's just no longer top tier.

If anybody doesn't like Link in 3.5 then I suggest that you go play Toon Link, Lunchables was mentioning that Toon Link's boomerang did 18% or something in the Tier List Speculation.

 

[EmptySky00]

I don't like toon link. It's not about boomerang damage e_e

 

[Thor]

Link now has 70-30 and 80-20 against the 3 most important characters in the game (i.e. Fox, Falco, Shiek), where before they used to be 60-40 and even 50-50 to 40-60. He also goes 60-40 to 70-30 with most of the cast now. He's definitely bottom half of the cast, I'd place him a little higher up umbreon, bottom 10, but he's still terrible.

In a tier list where you lose most of your match-ups, you aren't considered top half.

My problem with relying on Jab is it doesn't really convert into anything. Jab, Jab, Spin-attack works against some people, but it's still crouch cancellable. I don't see how you can use Jab to rushdown, at best it resets to neutral.

Jab is for the zoning part. His aerials and maybe dash attack (and utilt/usmash through platforms) are rushdown.

I was telling Umbreon that there's no way period this Link is comparatively worse than Melee Link, even if Umbreon is convinced he loses every MU (I'm convinced of something close to the opposite). Melee Link was also "mid-tier" because the people below him were so flawed in various ways that to put him lower is to imply that their critical flaws were somehow lesser than his (and they're just not, and his flaws are in my opinion much easier to work around than other characters below him, except possibly GnW, but to do that as GnW you literally just can't shield anything but projectiles and can't really use bair, nair, or uair except in converting combos). Melee Link's moveset is mostly useable [sans ftilt, that thing is trash], which is part of why he was better than the other mid/low-tier characters (for instance, Zelda, Roy, or GnW) who had movesets where some moves were practically unusable.

I'm not gonna bother commenting much on MUs because either people have already had these debates or they just don't give reasons, but suffice to say I disagree with you (but numbers without reasons don't make much sense). I will state I think Link wins versus a significant portion of the cast, and has no MUs worse than maybe 70-30.

 

[EmptySky00]

Having a bunch of 30-70's pretty ****ing terrible. And regardless of whether or not melee link's moveset was mostly "usable," you were more often than not (read: always) handicapping yourself severely at the character select screen by picking him against any real player using any real character. I don't think that's something to be emulated. I don't want him to just win everything for free but Christ you shouldn't reflex nerf someone into the ground because sub-mid level players complained a lot lol.

 

[Beta_Smash]

I don't like toon link. It's not about boomerang damage e_e

Well to me it seems like you're upset that Link isn't as easy to win with.

He can still win, you just have to do more than use side special when you are scared.

 

[Deleted member]

Fish for Fair hits for all eternity and throw **** until they **** up.

i maintain that playing to encourage your opponents to make mistakes is a skill that you can readily practice and improve at, and that you overlook the idea too readily.

i agree with the dsmash rant though.

I was telling Umbreon that there's no way period this Link is comparatively worse than Melee Link, even if Umbreon is convinced he loses every MU (I'm convinced of something close to the opposite).

having a bunch of 30-70's pretty ****ing terrible. and regardless of whether or not melee link's moveset was mostly "usable," you were more often than not (read: always) handicapping yourself severely at the character select screen by picking him against any real player using any real character. i dont think thats something to be emulated. i dont want him to just win everything for free but christ you shouldnt reflex nerf someone into the ground because sub-mid level players complained a lot lol

i dont even think 3.5 link loses every MU, i think hes quite good against the slower characters, but the slower characters are usually the least of your worries in a game with free movement since good speed augments everything else

 

[EmptySky00]

Well to me it seems like you're upset that Link isn't as easy to win with.

He can still win, you just have to do more than use side special when you are scared.

Lol ignorance. Don't make such brash assumptions.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol ignorance. Don't make such brash assumptions.

Spare me your petty judgments! Your childish ideals spring from a mind too meager to comprehend my reality!

I'm the final boss.

 

[EmptySky00]

Spare me your petty judgments! Your childish ideals spring from a mind too meager to comprehend my reality!

I'm the final boss.

All you really want is my wealth and beauty. Miserable cur... You reek of poverty and envy.

 

[Beta_Smash]

Lol ignorance. Don't make such brash assumptions.

"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn".
- Benjamin Franklin

Learn to win with your character and quit ranting over every change.

 

[EmptySky00]

Learn to actually evaluate a point of view instead of coming at me with some stupid assumptions because my evaluation doesn't match your own lol.

Nothing you said is even remotely relevant to my arguments. I'm willing to gamble a relatively large sum of money that I can win with my character far more readily than you can win with any given character to ever exist ever. Excuse me for thinking that a character having a bunch of 30-70 Matchups with the relevant characters in the cast isn't such good design. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to disagree with changes or discuss them. So go try and attack someone else with that.

 

[J3f]

Link's in the position that Jiggly Puff was in in 3.0, he's very similar to his melee version which means he's garbage in PM. Jiggly Puff was even objectively better than Link in Melee, being slightly better than your low-tier melee incarnation makes you bottom tier in Project M.

 

[EmptySky00]

I don't know I just think people shouldn't auto snap to the "You don't like these nerfs therefore get better scrub" response and actually try to contribute to something or not speak at all. It's cheap and doesn't really amount to anything aside from trash talk and thus has little grounding in reality. That type of **** isn't worth responding to, but I have poor self-control when it comes to pointing out blatant fallacious reasoning.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm liking 3.5 Link so far, he's nowhere near as good as he was in 3.0 though. He feels like Melee Link which is perfectly okay to me he's just no longer top tier.

If anybody doesn't like Link in 3.5 then I suggest that you go play Toon Link, Lunchables was mentioning that Toon Link's boomerang did 18% or something in the Tier List Speculation.

19%

Toon Links rang sweetspot is active for 3 frames after release and does 19%. It's -3 on shield.

 

[EmptySky00]

It did seem like it was active for a much shorter period. Didn't seem like -3 though. That **** stuns shield forever. Failure of timing on my part.

If you hit it on the third frame shouldn't it be 0 on shield then?

 

[Beta_Smash]

"70-30 matchups" the game hasn't even been out that long but you're the expert.

 

[Deleted member]

No, he's right

Link vs. characters like fox/falco is basically 70:30. It's awful.

 

[EmptySky00]

Thank you, I'm glad we agree on my expertise LOL.

I was also using Thor's statement.

And the character Link and his general toolset has been out for over a decade now. I think we can understand what he loses to. He's not a new entity lol. You act like it's a lot more of an enigma than it actually is.

 

[Beta_Smash]

My bad then.

 

[Luis Alonso]

I'm liking 3.5 Link so far, he's nowhere near as good as he was in 3.0 though. He feels like Melee Link which is perfectly okay to me he's just no longer top tier.

If anybody doesn't like Link in 3.5 then I suggest that you go play Toon Link, Lunchables was mentioning that Toon Link's boomerang did 18% or something in the Tier List Speculation.

19%

Toon Links rang sweetspot is active for 3 frames after release and does 19%. It's -3 on shield.

Yeah it is so much like that for me. I used to be really good with Link back at 3.0 and 3.02 but his recent changes hit me soooooo hard.

On the other hand, my Toon Link game had peaked so much... Why PMBR...WHYYYYYYYYY

 

[Beta_Smash]

I'm thinking of using another character in tournament since Link isn't too good.

 

[Luis Alonso]

It's not about the potential of the character. It's about the skill of the player.

You take Link all the way to the top, not the other way around.

(Unless you're Meta Knight in Brawl)

 

[Beorn]

I'm thinking of using another character in tournament since Link isn't too good.

Breh, we need people playing this character. Keep grinding, keep getting better, because they can't properly balance this game or this character without good players playing each character.

I keep hearing talk of wanting this and that reverted to 3.02. I really hope this doesn't happen. He was strictly just a better version of 3.5 link in 3.02. I want them to be more creative as they have been in 3.5. Buffs to make him more interesting and intricate to play. I stand by the buffs I have proposed, slightly lessing his weaknesses and giving him tools he hasn't had.

For reference, again I propose these changes.

Fixed hitbubble on tip of Uair (this should have been done ages ago.)

Visual fix on utilts first few frames where the sword is in front of link and goes into the zaxis.(it just strait up misses characters right in front of him when it looks like it should hit. Very confusing.

2% added to last hit of up-b (giving you 2 more shots at a bomb jump, and more uses onstage without losing recovery options)

Melee bomb knockback with slightly increased scaling so getting a bomb hit is more rewarding.(this would also make bomb jumping less effective and balance it out with the proposed up-b last hit damage buff.)

1 frame off the start of Jab 1 ( going from frame 6 to 5) Giving him one fast option to beat out faster characters

Lower angle of ftilt (allowing link to get characters off stage faster and set up for his gimp game, while outright killing at higher percents. This is a slow move that needs to be placed well to be effective and that would not change)

Sweet spot nair from 11 to 13% ( This would make more sense with the rest of the games nairs, give him slightly more advantage on shield and kill slightly earlier)

Utilt from 9 to 10 % (this is not a fast, or safe up-tilt it should be more damaging and slightly safer on shield)

I Believe these changes would put him in line with the rest of the cast. Polishing his existing hitboxes and animations. Making him slightly better at keeping up the the speedy characters in this game. Giving him slightly better oos options and shield hit saftey. Helping him get kills and gimps earlier with something other than a grab or randy fair. Lastly, bringing his recovery more in line with other characters by giving him the same bomb jump utility as the other characters that can do it.

 

[EmptySky00]

It's not about the potential of the character. It's about the skill of the player.

You take Link all the way to the top, not the other way around.

(Unless you're Meta Knight in Brawl)

God forbid we don't want to feel like our character is worse than everyone else in a game where that's no longer necessary because we actually have a competent group of people balancing it. No one said they wanted Link to carry them.But everyone has to be bolstered by their character to some degree. You have to pick a character, and the limits of your ability to perform are tied intrinsically to that character. You can get better, and we all intend to do that so I don't know why people are acting like this is revolutionary advice, but ultimately you're tied to your character's potential as a player.

If a character is bad a character is bad. The best player in the world can lose at the character select screen. Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

All the same, I'm not opposed to us discussing actual options the character currently has or how to deal with problematic matchups or optimize his remaining tools.

I'll start: I think Up Air is really good and Bair is terrible. Use plenty of the former, minimal of the latter.

In regards to jab, since the way the swing works he currently has full range on frame 7 even though the hitbox starts on frame 6. I wanted to suggest the same thing for jab a few weeks ago, but instead I think full range should happen on frame 5. The first frame of the hitbox doesn't have any range to it and is only relevant on poor spacing so I don't see why that would be a problem.

 

[Thor]

What even happened in this thread?

I might just leave it because everyone is so darn depressive in here. And no one has reasons for anything they say, lol.

Link's in the position that Jiggly Puff was in in 3.0, he's very similar to his melee version which means he's garbage in PM. Jiggly Puff was even objectively better than Link in Melee, being slightly better than your low-tier melee incarnation makes you bottom tier in Project M.

Link has a projectile, Puff does not. Puff is not objectively better.

Now that I've taken care of one stupid argument, due to another hopelessly moronic use of "objectively" invalidating the entire argument:

Link has like 7 70:30 MUs, tops, and they're really more like kinda tricky 60-40s or maybe better than that. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Wolf are the obvious ones that people will john about. Falcon is definitely of the tricky 60-40 variety - Melee Link mains aren't quite sure where to place this but it usually hovers around 70:30 or 80:20, possibly being 90:10 (and harder than Fox!) in PAL. Link's utilt and usmash are now so much better it's silly, as well as DACUS letting him mess with Captain Falcon a lot, and the rang is still good at what it does while Link still combos the mess out of him and edgeguarding with z-dropped and down thrown bombs is something I need to do to REALLY start gimping Falcons (instead of doing like 10 nairs, which is pretty standard in Melee). I've heard Sonic mains john a ton about this MU, so I'm not counting it in the list, but Sanic gota go fas so it might be? The only other one would be ROB, if _Odds is right about it (and he said a bunch of really silly stuff, so I doubt it).

Fox is the only really popular one up there, and Wolf is kinda popular but he's still not huge. Sheik is rare and Falcos are becoming fewer and fewer (but some Melee Falcos fill the ranks up, yet they won't actually know the MU very well so they hardly count). I don't know how many ROBs are out there, but I can only think of like 2 good ones (JCaesar and Kirkq, or something like that). Gahtzu is really good I guess, but there are no other PM Falcons I can think of off the top of my head (Except super random ones because I watched some random Smash at Xanadu sets).

Thank you, I'm glad we agree on my expertise LOL.

I was also using Thor's statement.

And the character Link and his general toolset has been out for over a decade now. I think we can understand what he loses to. He's not a new entity lol. You act like it's a lot more of an enigma than it actually is.

I don't think the MUs are that hard. If I'm giving you and Umbreon miles and miles and miles, they're like not-that-bad 70-30s. I personally don't think Link has any MU worse than 60-40, and even then, those MUs are eminently winnable. They may be 50-50 and I'm just bad at Smash and therefore undersell Link.

I'm thinking of using another character in tournament since Link isn't too good.

I won a tournament with this character without dropping a set. Among other things, I beat a Lucas and Mewtwo up bad enough that they went Sheik (and beat the Sheiks, one of which is on the Melee PR for his Sheik, and I have low Mewtwo experience), beat a good Falcon on FD (screw that MU), and also ran through a guy's Yoshi, Charizard, and Peach all in Winner's Finals 3-0 (he tried 'em all, lost every time). Except for the Mewtwo [this tournament wasn't close to me and he was a local], every one of these players has played me multiple times and all were ranked higher than me (though since I whopped them this time and used to keep it close, having started to beat them recently, with a repeat performance at the relatively large monthly in 2 weeks I'll become ranked higher than all of them for sure [this victory alone caused some people to want me moved up over them all], and one of them was supposed to be top 4 on the PR).

Maybe you have a crazy good scene and you want wins now, not some time in the (probably near) future, but otherwise, just get better at the game. Link's got amazing tools thanks to PM buffs (lol at people calling him Melee Link - fair hits harder than ever, rang is stupid good, utilt and usmash+DACUS make his anti-air game stupid good since the hitboxes actually match the animations, and all his Melee tricks are still present - and he still has a tether).

You're like, objectively wrong. God forbid we don't want to feel like our character is worse than everyone else in a game where that's no longer necessary because we actually have a competent group of people balancing it. No one said they wanted Link to carry them. But you're wrong anyway. Everyone has to be bolstered by their character to some degree. You have to pick a character, and the limits of your ability to perform are tied intrinsically to that character. You can get better, and we all intend to do that so I don't know people are acting like this is revolutionary advice, but ultimately you're tied to your character's potential as a player.

If a character is bad a character is bad. The best player in the world can lose at the character select screen. Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

All the same, I'm not opposed to us discussing actual options the character currently has or how to deal with problematic matchups or optimize his remaining tools.

I'll start: I think Up Air is really good and Bair is terrible. Use plenty of the former, minimal of the latter.

In regards to jab, since the way the swing works he currently has full range on frame 7 even though the hitbox starts on frame 6. I wanted to suggest the same thing for jab a few weeks ago, but instead I think full range should happen on frame 5. The first frame of the hitbox doesn't have any range to it and is only relevant on poor spacing so I don't see why that would be a problem.

Link can be taken to the very top, or very dang close (I can't name a top 10, I guess Professor Pro [who said as of 3.02 that Snake loses the MU], Armada, Zero, M2K, Sethlon... Lunchables ESAM Awestin Kels Neon???).

If the people were competent balancing it, you'd not have these issues with Link. I see a paradox

The best can lose at the CSS? XD this is one of the dumbest things smashers say (right alongside assigning the quantitative word "more" to a qualitative word "competitive" since that's literally impossible). There's literally no one in the world who's held back at the CSS except MAYBE Mango vs another Melee god when he goes Falcon. No one here is that level, which means up until you're as good as Mango, it's your own fault for losing. Sure, MAYBE you could pick a different character, but you can still just improve and win anyway. At the point that one literally can't improve any more [and to be honest, I think Mango could still improve at Falcon, but I used him as an example because he's commonly considered #1], it's the character's fault. Up until that point, the blame for a loss should always be placed squarely on the person for not being good enough to win.

Uair is good, but bair is also amazing. Auto-cancel a bair as an anti-air and use that to setup a grounded Up+B. I did that on accident once, it was fantastic.

 

[EmptySky00]

What even happened in this thread?

I might just leave it because everyone is so darn depressive in here. And no one has reasons for anything they say, lol.



Link has a projectile, Puff does not. Puff is not objectively better.

Now that I've taken care of one stupid argument, due to another hopelessly moronic use of "objectively" invalidating the entire argument:

Link has like 7 70:30 MUs, tops, and they're really more like kinda tricky 60-40s or maybe better than that. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Wolf are the obvious ones that people will john about. Falcon is definitely of the tricky 60-40 variety - Melee Link mains aren't quite sure where to place this but it usually hovers around 70:30 or 80:20, possibly being 90:10 (and harder than Fox!) in PAL. Link's utilt and usmash are now so much better it's silly, as well as DACUS letting him mess with Captain Falcon a lot, and the rang is still good at what it does while Link still combos the mess out of him and edgeguarding with z-dropped and down thrown bombs is something I need to do to REALLY start gimping Falcons (instead of doing like 10 nairs, which is pretty standard in Melee). I've heard Sonic mains john a ton about this MU, so I'm not counting it in the list, but Sanic gota go fas so it might be? The only other one would be ROB, if _Odds is right about it (and he said a bunch of really silly stuff, so I doubt it).

Fox is the only really popular one up there, and Wolf is kinda popular but he's still not huge. Sheik is rare and Falcos are becoming fewer and fewer (but some Melee Falcos fill the ranks up, yet they won't actually know the MU very well so they hardly count). I don't know how many ROBs are out there, but I can only think of like 2 good ones (JCaesar and Kirkq, or something like that). Gahtzu is really good I guess, but there are no other PM Falcons I can think of off the top of my head (Except super random ones because I watched some random Smash at Xanadu sets).



I don't think the MUs are that hard. If I'm giving you and Umbreon miles and miles and miles, they're like not-that-bad 70-30s. I personally don't think Link has any MU worse than 60-40, and even then, those MUs are eminently winnable. They may be 50-50 and I'm just bad at Smash and therefore undersell Link.



I won a tournament with this character without dropping a set. Among other things, I beat a Lucas and Mewtwo up bad enough that they went Sheik (and beat the Sheiks, one of which is on the Melee PR for his Sheik, and I have low Mewtwo experience), beat a good Falcon on FD (screw that MU), and also ran through a guy's Yoshi, Charizard, and Peach all in Winner's Finals 3-0 (he tried 'em all, lost every time). Except for the Mewtwo [this tournament wasn't close to me and he was a local], every one of these players has played me multiple times and all were ranked higher than me (though since I whopped them this time and used to keep it close, having started to beat them recently, with a repeat performance at the relatively large monthly in 2 weeks I'll become ranked higher than all of them for sure [this victory alone caused some people to want me moved up over them all], and one of them was supposed to be top 4 on the PR).

Maybe you have a crazy good scene and you want wins now, not some time in the (probably near) future, but otherwise, just get better at the game. Link's got amazing tools thanks to PM buffs (lol at people calling him Melee Link - fair hits harder than ever, rang is stupid good, utilt and usmash+DACUS make his anti-air game stupid good since the hitboxes actually match the animations, and all his Melee tricks are still present - and he still has a tether).



Link can be taken to the very top, or very dang close (I can't name a top 10, I guess Professor Pro [who said as of 3.02 that Snake loses the MU], Armada, Zero, M2K, Sethlon... Lunchables ESAM Awestin Kels Neon???).

If the people were competent balancing it, you'd not have these issues with Link. I see a paradox

The best can lose at the CSS? XD this is one of the dumbest things smashers say (right alongside assigning the quantitative word "more" to a qualitative word "competitive" since that's literally impossible). There's literally no one in the world who's held back at the CSS except MAYBE Mango vs another Melee god when he goes Falcon. No one here is that level, which means up until you're as good as Mango, it's your own fault for losing. Sure, MAYBE you could pick a different character, but you can still just improve and win anyway. At the point that one literally can't improve any more [and to be honest, I think Mango could still improve at Falcon, but I used him as an example because he's commonly considered #1], it's the character's fault. Up until that point, the blame for a loss should always be placed squarely on the person for not being good enough to win.

Uair is good, but bair is also amazing. Auto-cancel a bair as an anti-air and use that to setup a grounded Up+B. I did that on accident once, it was fantastic.

7 30-70 MU’s is pretty ****ing bad. You don’t seem to get this concept.

Not-that-bad 30-70? I see a paradox

All because a character can win a game doesn’t make them good.

I said competent, not infallible, learn your goddamn vocab.

Having a projectile does not automatically make one character better than another are you actually being serious right now?... My concern is rising.

Losing at the character select screen isn’t possible? Let's go back to Brawl for this one and tell me that you actually thought about what you said. You're overly idealistic and you SEVERELY undervalue the effect that character choice has on the game. Maybe in this game the concept is far less literal, but then you should learn to interpret hyperbole and understand the statement for what it is. and... Bair is amazing? Lawl. I’m not listening to any more of this nonsense.

 

[J3f]

The Problem with Link is that all his 30-70 matchup are against top-tier characters. In exchange his 70-30 matchups are against the worst characters in the game. They don't balance each other out.

I'd rather have a Link which had a few 40-60 and nothing better than 55-45 than a Link with 7 30-70 matchups.

 

[Thor]

7 30-70 MU’s is pretty ****ing bad. You don’t seem to get this concept.

Not-that-bad 30-70? I see a paradox

All because a character can win a game doesn’t make them good.

I said competent, not infallible, learn your goddamn vocab.

Having a projectile does not automatically make one character better than another are you actually being serious right now?... My concern is rising.

Losing at the character select screen isn’t possible? Let's go back to Brawl for this one and tell me that you actually thought about what you said. You're overly idealistic and you SEVERELY undervalue the effect that character choice has on the game. Maybe in this game the concept is far less literal, but then you should learn to interpret hyperbole and understand the statement for what it is. and... Bair is amazing? Lawl. I’m not listening to any more of this nonsense.

You don't seem to understand that I have to write from your side of things and then as I see them. I've already stated multiple times I don't think things are NEARLY as bad as you all think they are, but that if I play along, I'd guess what you see is 7 70-30 MUs. If you saw more, I'd have to discuss those too, but at this point I'm trying to flesh out exactly why you think he's so bad AND offer counterpoints. You lack the ability to distinguish these two objectives so I'm laying it out explicitly right here.

Link doesn't have a single 70-30 MU in this whole game. Link Fox is maybe 65-35, and maybe Link-Sheik is too. Everything else is 60-40 or better. 2 65-35 MUs isn't terrible, especially when one of those is dependent on waveshining [if Fox can't waveshine it's 60-40 or better].

Not-that-bad 30-70 because it requires a lot of knowledge to execute properly and screw-ups on their end hurt just as much as our end, but they generally have to be way more technical. And we also gimp the heck out of everyone which means if you're good at getting someone offstage (Which most MUs seem to assume you aren't) it gets a lot easier. Play lamer and it's really not as bad as the MU sounds, because people don't play lame when they write these values. And it's not that bad even if you don't play lame, I was trying to figure out your angle on what you think the bad MUs are.

Competent vs infalliable? lol if we go with your view of things they can't possibly be competent enough to leave that many bad MUs in. I say they are competent and the MUs aren't that bad, you're clearly implying they're not, since you think the 80-20 MUs are in double digits clearly.

He said "objectively" which means there is no opinion whatosever, it's purely based on facts. That would have to mean Puff has a better everything in every conceivable way. This is obviously false, and the easiest proof of this is that she has no projectile. If he hadn't used that word I've have had to actually answer the argument, but he can't use English so I could 100% refute the argument without actually trying.

If you want me to actually answer the ridiculous assertion that 3.02 Puff > 3.5 Link I will, but to ask me for something so stupid is probably a waste of my time. I will state the words "3.02 Mewtwo", as that should be more than sufficient for a more realistic argument [I believe Hbox has flatly stated that MU is unwinnable - Link has no such MU in 3.5.]

There's no Brawl MK in this game last I checked, who was good because his weaknesses were negligible and not at all tied to recovery or edgeguarding. Also Fonz has overcome a literally 100-0 MU, probably because the opponent messed up, but he did it. And people have overcome losing MUs in that game too, one special occasion being Vex beating Vinnie [that's freaking DDD ICs, and this is Vinnie, not whomever Fonz beat back then].

So if you'd like to talk Brawl, we can talk Brawl, but this is PM, which is much closer to Melee, and in Melee, basically everyone ever who lost has lost because they weren't good enough (Even RRR losing to spacies talks about how he sees places to optimize and make better decisions, punishes, etc.). That's right, a Melee Kirby states he thinks he holds himself back by not being better than he is more than his character (who may hold him back a little, it's in his AMA on reddit somewhere), so for you to john about PM Link is nothing short of hilarious.

Your ability to strawman me is exceptional though, I will give credit where credit is due.

 

[Deleted member]

your ability at projection is exceptional. i agree that @ E EmptySky00 is an idiot and can't make an argument in english, but you strawman much better than he ever could.

i agree that link players should stop ******** and use what they got, but at the end of the day 3.5 link still sucks. he's just not good. will that hold players back? yes absolutely.

none of you seem to know what "objective" means. get on that.

 

[Luis Alonso]

your ability at projection is exceptional. i agree that @ E EmptySky00 is an idiot and can't make an argument in english, but you strawman much better than he ever could.

i agree that link players should stop *****ing and use what they got, but at the end of the day 3.5 link still sucks. he's just not good. will that hold players back? yes absolutely.

none of you seem to know what "objective" means. get on that.

I definitely agree. 3.5 just simply isn't as good as he used to be. Here's to hoping that they fix him up a bit in the next patch to at least up his potential and capabilities.

As for objective. Google searched.

ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
   "historians try to be objective and impartial"
   synonyms:impartial, unbiased, unprejudiced, nonpartisan, disinterested, neutral,uninvolved, even-handed, equitable, fair, fair-minded, just, open-minded, dispassionate, detached, neutral
   "I was hoping to get an objective and pragmatic report"
   • 
     
2. 2.
   GRAMMAR
   of, relating to, or denoting a case of nouns and pronouns used as the object of a transitive verb or a preposition.

noun

1. 1.
   a thing aimed at or sought; a goal.
   "the system has achieved its objective"
   synonyms:aim, intention, purpose, target, goal, intent, object, end; More
   
   
2. 2.
   GRAMMAR
   the objective case.

 

[Beorn]

your ability at projection is exceptional. i agree that @ E EmptySky00 is an idiot and can't make an argument in english, but you strawman much better than he ever could.

i agree that link players should stop *****ing and use what they got, but at the end of the day 3.5 link still sucks. he's just not good. will that hold players back? yes absolutely.

none of you seem to know what "objective" means. get on that.

I agree Umbreon. I will cut off talking about links viability until next patch comes out. I think I youself and other link mains have gotten across our points. We will just have to see.

Though there isn't much else to talk about. This is 3.5 link discussion. We have covered the changes pretty hard, and I think most of us have adapted to links new quirks.

 

[Deleted member]

i talked to hylian about it briefly in a stream, iirc he said like 95% of link players are convinced the character sucks. personally i get where hylian is coming from but imo hes just a good player in a way that most people cant really relate to