3.5 Link Discussion

[Mi4Slayer]

Well Clearly is rang has been nerf, But personally, I though it was just a bit op.

But has for the changes of is Nair, Zair, Utilt, Ftilt,. I don't feel comfortable with it. That landlag with the zair .... ugghhh !! I hate it. The up tilt does feel a tad different but the rest am ok with it.

So...How much do you think it going to change the metagame with him ?

 

[Mi4Slayer]

Link Changelist


Tilts
-Forward Tilt BKB changed from 20 on all hits to 5,5,2,2. KBG changed from 93 to 90. Now starts on frame 14 (from 12) and IASAs 37 (from 35).
-Up Tilt BKB changed from 35 to 30. Starts frame 9 (from 8) and IASAs frame 31 (from 30).

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial sweetspot BKB from 22 to 15, sourspot from 15 to 10. Nair sweetspot changed to do the most damage on the foot(11) and less on the hip(9) and back leg(8). Hitbox priorities matched (Hip > Foot > Back leg)
-Forward Aerial damage dropped 15->14, and KBG increased from 100 ->105.

Throws
-Down Throw now puts opponents into tumble.

Specials
-Boomerang sweetspot:. 14 damage, 55BKB, 35KBG, 80 Angle-> 11 damage, 45BKB, 52KBG 70 Angle Sweespot now lasts 5 frames from 8.
-Boomerang Flub outgoing: 6 damage, 55BKB, 20KBG -> 6 damage, 55BKB, 30KBG
-Boomerang Returning: 5 damage, 45BKB, 20 KBG -> 3 damage, 25BKB, 26KBG
-Boomerang cooldown for not being caught increased by 20 frames.
-Boomerang horizontal velocity is reset on hit/shield/clank when going outward instead of mirrored back towards Link. Accelerates back to him like at the end of a throw that hit nothing. Boomerang no longer disappears on clank and now go into hitlag.
-Boomerang startup of throw has had 2 frames added to it.
-Aerial Spin attack: Removed giant shoulder hitbox, Arm collision shrank from 5.47 to 5.
-Aerial Spin attack: Vertical Height 2.3 -> 2.31, Maximum Height 0.6 -> 0.8. (similar to young link values in melee)

Others
-Dash attack trajectory angle changed from 91 to 90, IASA changed from 37 to 40. BKB on all hits changed from 30 to 25.
-Over 100 ledge attack animation timing changed so that the stab starts later in the animation getting rid of the deadzone(stats match 3.0 still)
-Jumpsquat reduced from 6 frames to 5 frames.
-Zair seeking the ledge interaction cleaned up, seeks on frame 10.
-Zair landlag increased from 10 -> 15.
-Link now has a playable Ocarina. Tap Down-Taunt to begin, play sounds with different D-Pad inputs & Attack button. Press B to exit.

 

[AtlusKnight]

I haven't gotten to it yet, but from all the frame data that I'm seeing I am assuming that the boomerang is faster but not as spammable anymore (which is much better in my opinion) and Link can't combo as much from his Zair with the sweet spot.
Also seems to me the bomb jump is very melee esque in nature according to some of my friends doing some lab work.

 

[BigHairyFart]

AGT does practically nothing now... You HAVE to bomb jump like in Melee, which sucks for me, because I never got into competitive Melee, so I'm used to AGT'ing all the damn time, even on stage.

 

[Vidiot825]

About recovery...
Agt is still useful, just not as much
Bomb jump is much harder now, requires no agt and backwards hits of up b to break like in melee
Tether mechanic was nerves heavily, slow retraction and not breakable into up b
Also, smaller up b?

Though other stuff was changed about him, I feel that the recovery nerf is going to make a biggest difference with link than anything else
Thoughts?

 

[Fortress]

Recovering with a bomb in hand is actually fairly easy. With tap jump enabled, tilt the stick up and throw, and DELAY your uSpecial until the bomb starts coming down. You will hit it. I've been doing this for about an hour straight now, and the bomb recovery is still possible. It should be even easier without tap jump since you don't accidentally expend your jump by tilting the stick too far. The trick is to delay your uSpecial long enough so that you don't smack the bomb out of the way.

 

[Mi4Slayer]

Just why did they do this to it recover :/ In the other smash at one of the biggest reason to why link is trash.
It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Fortress]

Just why did they do this to it recover :/ In the other smash at one of the biggest reason to why link is trash.
It doesn't make sense to me.

The recovery was a big part of why he wasn't a great character, but another part of it was just how slow the guy was. With his speed now, he's got a solid and well-developed combo game, and his new projectiles give him a slew of new edgeguarding tools. Not only that, but his recovery tools are stronger here than any other entry in the Smash series, even now. The problem in 2.5/3.0 was that they were too powerful, like, waaaaaaaaaay too powerful. Link still has a ton of flexibility in his recovery, but it's more rewarding to actually edgeguard him now. It makes perfect sense why his recovery was dialed back, it was too good.

 

[Deleted member]

Even though Link got nerfed (which was expected) his core playstyle is still there. I'm optimistic that he'll definitely still be viable. I also really like that he can wavedash a frame earlier, wavedashing now feels much smoother with him than previously. Also with the bomb nerfs it looks like they're going to have to be used much more defensively this time around. Is it just me or do they seem to last longer too? His biggest nerf was probably in his recovery, which sucks, but Link's strong suit is in the neutral game anyways and with so many recovery nerfs across the board with other characters it's practically evened out since he's still just as good at edge guarding as ever. Also I'm glad that boomerang got nerfed since it was so good that he didn't have to use many other projectiles or approach options before, luckily it's not nerfed so much that it's unusable either.

 

[Vidiot825]

Even though Link got nerfed (which was expected) his core playstyle is still there. I'm optimistic that he'll definitely still be viable. I also really like that he can wavedash a frame earlier, wavedashing now feels much smoother with him than previously. Also with the bomb nerfs it looks like they're going to have to be used much more defensively this time around. Is it just me or do they seem to last longer too? His biggest nerf was probably in his recovery, which sucks, but Link's strong suit is in the neutral game anyways and with so many recovery nerfs across the board with other characters it's practically evened out since he's still just as good at edge guarding as ever. Also I'm glad that boomerang got nerfed since it was so good that he didn't have to use many other projectiles or approach options before, luckily it's not nerfed so much that it's unusable either.

Well said. The recovery nerf were probably a little warranted in this version, though I could have done without the up b nerf haha. But his core play is still intact. In terms of bombs, I believe they have the same timing, but the difference is that you can't throw them as far as before (which is what they meant by melee bombs, not the explosions from melee which set up to down thrust consistently). I completely expected a boomerang nerf, and I think they handled it very nicely by keeping the combos intact without making it unusable.
And of course don't forget he vane with a buff or two, the most notable to me being an up smash that connects better and picks up off ground.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Sheik destroys Link once again like in Melee... Will post lots of salt in the MU thread. ):

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I was okay with the recovery nerfs.

I was iffy about the rang nerfs. (It does NOT limit what options you use because of how good it is, you're doing it wrong if you think so.)

I was really upset with the changes to his throws and up tilt.

Those changes, more than anything make Link's bad matchups horrible.

Link lost a lot of confirms he needed imo.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Oh it seemed to me that Down throw to up b seems to confirm a lot more after playing some friendlies. As for the rangs it still acts as an active hit box as it comes back after being clanked, so figuring out something as it comes back will be interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

Dthrow also received notable changes, it's throw range is much less now. I actually consider this a buff since I now can kill floaties way easier, and with everyone else that just means I can uthrow instead at those low percents then still reliably dthrow at high percents. Also dthrow->up-b works on much more characters than just spacies now which is another buff. First thing I noticed was that I could dthrow->dair my friend's Zelda at around 100%+ which was previously unheard of.

I was iffy about the rang nerfs. (It does NOT limit what options you use because of how good it is, you're doing it wrong if you think so.)

not really, it was insanely good before. Now it's just good.

 

[Mi4Slayer]

I really hate is Utilt now. way too slow for comfort. I use to punish guys like falco and fox with with ... now it won't go fast enough. Same for the rang. It try to jump off the fray and thrown it.... it won't go fast enough anymore. Like I say I understand the damage nerf, but is start up feels not fast enough anymore :/

I know link as a hard time against very fast close combat.... but now it ridiculous.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I guess more spot dodge/grab/up-b and d-smash action is now needed in the close combat, similar to Link in Melee. Those option come at a risk, but that isn't a bad thing in terms of game design.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Well Link's jabs are still really good in close range. And Link's BnB in melee was nairs honestly and with Link having much better tools this time around it is all about precision even more so in every situation since Link tends to have overwhelming setups and plays in PM.

 

[Fortress]

For those worried about uTilt and confirms, uTilt was never a confirm with Link. You can still confirm into it. Jab > Jab > Grab > dThrow > uTilt. Link's moves still have their place, there's just a much heavier focus on actually leading into those instead of brainlessly throwing them out, hoping for the best, and getting a combo. You're going to be able to do the things you could do, for the most part, but you're going to have to work harder to lead into those things.

 

[Paquito]

Anyone able to activate the new down taunt? D down just does the N64 taunt for me.

 

[l3thargy]

Anyone able to activate the new down taunt? D down just does the N64 taunt for me.

You have to tap it quickly to get it to activate, it's the same as his Navi taunt when it comes to execution.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Fun fact about that taunt, when the AI taunts you, they only do it with a single frame of input, so if an AI Link does his down taunt, he'll pull the ocarina and then just stand there. And if you stand close to him, he will start "attacking" you, so you just hear the 'A' note over and over again.

 

[Apollo Ali]

where are people reading bomb nerfs

i even ctrl + f "bomb" on this page and it only showed you guys talking about it

i know agt has been nerfed but thats different, no?

 

[Deleted member]

where are people reading bomb nerfs

i even ctrl + f "bomb" on this page and it only showed you guys talking about it

i know agt has been nerfed but thats different, no?

for some reason it's not in the changelogs but it's a very noticeable difference in-game.

 

[Fortress]

where are people reading bomb nerfs

i even ctrl + f "bomb" on this page and it only showed you guys talking about it

i know agt has been nerfed but thats different, no?

Bombs don't carry as much momentum after being thrown. They can't be thrown as far.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I totally did not notice that when playing yesterday in tourney, lol.

 

[Shadic]

I really hate is Utilt now. way too slow for comfort. I use to punish guys like falco and fox with with ... now it won't go fast enough.

It's one frame slower, I don't see the issue.

As for throws, he can do more at different percents now. UThrow works well at low percents and against FFers, and DThrow is great for comboing into UpB/DA at higher percents. DThrow is weaker now but still forces tumble at any percent, so you could try following up on the tech, if you really feel fancy.

 

[Beorn]

I have play tested extensively with this and older versions of 3.5 link. I LOVE this Link. He feels amazing and flows very naturally. I don't know why people think his bombs moving more slowly and going less far was a nerf. It covers a lot of space in front of him. Bombs flow with his kit much more cleanly and cover another niche his previous kit lacked.

I only have two complaints with him.

1. He has a very hard time edgegaurding most of the cast. Most of links moves hit at a sakurai angle or nearly. Hitting characters with his nair offstage often helps them recover unless they are super fast fallers or strait up die at like 150 from the Foot hit. Same with bair. Ftilt also took a large hit in kill potential. I've hit many characters at 170 at the edge and had them recover with no tech. Look through links move set. He has three moves that don't hit up and diagonally or up, the meteor hit on dtilt , and arrows.

If link had a lower angle on ftilt or first hit of bair or some move that hits forward in the air (and doesn't kill him off stage ) he would have an edge guarding tool that isn't just more damage or Incredibly linear like arrows)

2. I agree with the entirety of his recovery nerfs but the fact that you can't jump out of his Hookshot. Not only do you always have to snap to the ledge now but you can't cancel the tether. Both of these things mean his tether is actually worse than melee by a great deal.

Other than those two things he Is sick, but yes Like others have said you still basically have to out play your opponent and not get gimped at 60 so you can kill them at like 120 to 150. That's the life we have always lived folks.

Look on the bright side fellow link mains, you win neutral in most matchups!

 

[Fortress]

I have play tested extensively with this and older versions of 3.5 link. I LOVE this Link. He feels amazing and flows very naturally. I don't know why people think his bombs moving more slowly and going less far was a nerf. It covers a lot of space in front of him. Bombs flow with his kit much more cleanly and cover another niche his previous kit lacked.

I only have two complains with him.

1. He is bad at edgegaurding most of the cast. Most of links moves hit at a sakurai angle. Hitting characters with his nair offstage helps them recover unless the are super fast fallers or the strait up die at like 150. Sweetspot or not. Same with bair. Ftilt also took a large hit in kill potential. I've hit many characters at 170 at the edge and had them recover with no tech. Look through links move set. He has three moves that don't hit up and diagonally or up, the meteor hit on dtilt , and arrows.

If link had a lower angle on ftilt or first hit of bair or some move that hits forward in the air (and doesn't kill him off stage ) he would have an edge guarding tool that isn't just more damage or Incredibly linear like arrows)

2. I agree with the entirety of his recovery nerfs but the fact that you can't jump out of his Hookshot. Not only do you always have to snap to the ledge now but you can't cancel the tether. Both of these things mean his tether is actually worse than melee by a great deal.

Other than those two things he Is sick, but yes Like others have said you still basically have to out play your opponent and not get gimped at 60 so you can kill them at like 120 to 150. That's the life we have always lived folks.

Look on the bright side fellow link mains, you win neutral in most matchups!

On ledgeguarding with Link: I've found success in edgeguarding by double-bAiring 64-style, and by just zDropping bombs at the ledge to make opponents hesitate before attempting a recovery. Link's pretty good at indirectly interrupting a recovery. That's just what works for me though.

 

[Beorn]

On ledgeguarding with Link: I've found success in edgeguarding by double-bAiring 64-style, and by just zDropping bombs at the ledge to make opponents hesitate before attempting a recovery. Link's pretty good at indirectly interrupting a recovery. That's just what works for me though.

It's not worth the risk. I have died so many times trying to go off stage, but I keep trying. Often because of links Inability to go low or far out he puts him self at serious risk of getting edge hogged or, gimped at very low percents trying to get a reasonably early kill offstage. Because his up-b takes so long to reach max height and start to drop, many characters can reach the ledge before he does by going low and recovery as usual. Then you just put yourself in a bad position because it won't be so hard for others to gimp you.

None of the edge gaurding nonsense would be worth talking about if he had as potent and safe kill moves as the majority of the cast. People are always going on about how hard dair and up-b hit. If you get hit by up-b hold up, you will be surprised how long you can survive this move. Dair as well, just hold left or right and you can survive until around 120 ( getting hit in the air on some stages) These would be plenty if he had any kinda potential to take a stock early and turn the tides of a match like the rest of the cast.

Link often doesn't kill until very high percents against opponents that actually know what to do against him. Kinda has the marth problem, but marth can gimp you at 20 and kill you at 60.

Don't go thinking I am making link out to be a terrible character. He is a quite good, mostly because of his neutral game. Taking a stock for starting at 0 is an ordeal for a character with adverage kill moves and a less than stellar edge game. Link has been blessed with all the tools to outplay and win neutral over and over baring characters that link should struggle with like fox.


OH and there should be an entire thread dedicated to how amazing Links fair is.

 

[Fortress]

I feel, too, that Link has an issue killing or gimping characters out at earlier percents. It's all about having good strings, good pressure, and just walling your opponent out until they're at a high percent and then set up for some of Link's setups. dThrow > dAir is still something he's got for a kill, and uAir has kill potential. I know that zAir > dAir works if you get the far hitbox on it. Most, if not all, of Link's kill options are onstage ones.

I play a really grab-happy Link, since most of the time early on in my tournament life I played Sheik, so I just tend to grab more than most other players. I feel like Link's got tools to tech chase well with and get kills off of (a strong dAir and fAir), and I've had earlier kills more times than I can count with nAir > nAir offstage. I'll have to tighten up my spacing to continue being able to do that, but I think most of the way I tend to play Link comes from the time playing Sheik so much.

 

[Beorn]

I feel, too, that Link has an issue killing or gimping characters out at earlier percents. It's all about having good strings, good pressure, and just walling your opponent out until they're at a high percent and then set up for some of Link's setups. dThrow > dAir is still something he's got for a kill, and uAir has kill potential. I know that zAir > dAir works if you get the far hitbox on it. Most, if not all, of Link's kill options are onstage ones.

I play a really grab-happy Link, since most of the time early on in my tournament life I played Sheik, so I just tend to grab more than most other players. I feel like Link's got tools to tech chase well with and get kills off of (a strong dAir and fAir), and I've had earlier kills more times than I can count with nAir > nAir offstage. I'll have to tighten up my spacing to continue being able to do that, but I think most of the way I tend to play Link comes from the time playing Sheik so much.

Oh yeah, his kill setups quite reliable, going for a grab in most cases is very risky with link and toonlink if your opponent knows the match up, because of their inability to grab airborne opponents, his 11 frame grab and his tether endlagg. His grab is one of the worst in the game, while at the same time having one of the best throws in the game. Very high risk high reward. It's a nice balance and suits the character well.

On the subject of nair off stage. Link has a very limited area he can use nair without falling to his death or going too far out to recover quickly enough to not have the tables turned on him. Often when I hit with links nair my opponents here in TN just DI up and it helps them recover. Because the move hits at an upward diagonal like most of links moves that don't hit up do. Which puts link in a bad position against much of the cast.
It is usually more benificial for me to threaten that small area right outside of the ledge with invincible ledge hopped nairs and bairs while continuing to set up my projectile and onstage edge guarding games to make it hard for returning opponents to not get naired or faired back off stage, which link is very good at.

 

[Fortress]

I usually nAir early from up high, get the weak hit to put them in hitstun, and go for the strong hit after that if I feel I can get it based on their DI/how far they're knocked back. At worst, I've disrupted their movement and can still recover.

Also, if you didn't know for whatever reason, Link can grab aerial opponents with the hand box. He has some niche grab opportunities with it that can really add some mixups to your grab game.

 

[Thor]

Basically, my take on the nerfs is that 3.5 left us with Melee Link+. Nerfs to nair, sure, but I think they just reset it to Melee nair. Fair was kinda...? More KBG but I don't know if the percent loss is the nerf and the KBG just perfectly offsets the knockback, but again, I think that's Melee fair with more KBG (?). Most of his other nerfs also seemed to simply move his stats back to Melee levels [including bomb throw distances], except his hitboxes are still better than Melee [or feel that way in terms of range and such], his recovery is mostly better than Melee [I think tether is eh, but his up+B is better, and standard bomb jump works ...he moved sideways I guess, but his recovery was better to begin with, so it's still better?] and his boomerang is better (mostly - can't go quite as far, but better in pretty much every other way) as well.

Since I play Melee Link, this new Link feels comfortable - 3.02 Link felt like a buffed, super-strong Link, while this Link feels like I'm playing Melee where my sword is a bit bigger, the top tiers are a bit more fair, and I have a better boomerang for comboing [zoning I think it does slightly better, but not too much].

And he finally got his dark Melee costume, so I can play the Link skin I like (dark without those horrible eyes). Now I wish (futilely I'm sure) they'd make a Brawl Link dark costume without the creepy eyes and I'd be pretty much perfect with how Link is.

Many of you are probably like, "Don't you miss super strong Link?", and while I KINDA do, I don't miss Mewtwo's teleport hover nairs, Fox usmash killing me at like 95%, or Ness PK-firing my shield (though PK fire can still be annoying) while also having extremely low endlag on his recovery. And those changes [plus other nerfs elsewhere] are more than enough for me to fully embrace 3.5 Link.

 

[Fortress]

I play Melee Link, as well, and I have to say that PM 3.5 Link feels just right.

 

[Heero Yuy]

3.0 Link was way too easy as well. Since lots of players stink vs projectiles, you could just start using Link and boom, you may even get a free win. That and the fact that Link had loads of options to rack up damage with ease as well as numerous Dair setups.

3.5 Link you now have to work for your kills more than ever AND you have to space to the best of your ability now instead of just mindlessly throw things. Most of Link's bad matchups from 3.0 went from bad to worse, but thus is the characteristic of a balanced game.

 

[BigHairyFart]

where are people reading bomb nerfs

i even ctrl + f "bomb" on this page and it only showed you guys talking about it

i know agt has been nerfed but thats different, no?

It's not a bomb change, it's a universal item throwing change. Link is just one of the few characters actually affected by it, since bombs are technically items.

 

[Vidiot825]

It's not a bomb change, it's a universal item throwing change. Link is just one of the few characters actually affected by it, since bombs are technically items.

It's not necessarily a nerf, but the bombs were changed to "melee" bombs, at least according to Link's description itself on the PM site at the moment. From what I've seen so far though it's more accurate to call them the project M bombs with the melee throw distance and possibly the same damage. They don't seem to setup as well as they do in melee for kills though (these ones have higher knock back i believe).

 

[Beorn]

I usually nAir early from up high, get the weak hit to put them in hitstun, and go for the strong hit after that if I feel I can get it based on their DI/how far they're knocked back. At worst, I've disrupted their movement and can still recover.

Also, if you didn't know for whatever reason, Link can grab aerial opponents with the hand box. He has some niche grab opportunities with it that can really add some mixups to your grab game.

Indeed I did know that That's why I added that the move is 11 frames. Links run speed also severely hampers his abiilty to go for the hand grab, which is very small compared to other traditional grab boxes, because of how close he holds his arm to his body and the kick from the clawshot releasing. Though because of this kick link can often grab from behind his back. Check it out in Debug frame advance. It's pretty cool :o

EDIT: Acutally just check it out




Speaking of frame advance and hitbubbles. Why is this still a thing?


This is ridiculous. Unless it's a Dair no other character has to put up with a hitbubble like this. Links second jump is already trash tier. Watching your sword pierce other characters and have nothing happen is very confusing.

 

[Shadic]

This is ridiculous.

No.

First of all, the disjoint not matching the full length of the sword isn't a new thing:

Second, hitbox interpolation when falling means you're covering that space anyways. To see what I'm talking about, trigger interpolation mode on (Enter in the hitbox view command again), and take another look.

I doubt you can actually find a single example of UAir looking like it should hit from below when it does not. Not only do you need to factor in the interpolation, but the move still massively disjointed (And from below, you're not going to get anybody who can outrange it besides Dedede).

 

[AthleticNerd93]

I feel 3.5 link is smoother and faster. Nerfs all around eases the pain of what greatness Link had with projectiles and recoveries but they were well warranted. I feel his play has to be tighter now than in 3.02 but thats just how I feel. To me, this update feels like almost a new game. I just hope he is still as viable as he was because I don't want to play anyone else after Yoshi was destroyed.